VF-27, YF-29 and YF-30

[ieh4f]

which one is the best overall fighter in the latest macross timeline so far? and why?

[Seto Kaiba]

which one is the best overall fighter in the latest macross timeline so far? and why?

Well, I'd have to ask you to define "best" before I could answer... after all, "best" could mean many different things. The greatest thrust-to-weight ratio? Highest top speed? Most armament? Most operational versatility? Easiest to manufacture? Stealthiest? Highest reactor output? Most engine thrust?

You see, there is no one "best"... there is only "most appropriate to a particular job".

I'd also have to ask why you left the VF-25 off that list... since that one has far and away the greatest operational versatility of all the known YF-24 derivatives thanks to its diverse array of variants for general use and special purposes, and their ever-growing collection of optional equipment.

In terms of the fighter that would be "most appropriate" to the widest array of potential operations, it'd probably have to be either the VF-25 or YF-30. The YF-30 can exchange its ordinance container for various other systems for different operational profiles, while the VF-25 has all manner of external optional hardware and special-purpose variants.

All of them are going to be tricky to manufacture because they depend on fold quartz, though the YF-29 and YF-30 might well be the hardest due to their high requirements for fold quartz. In terms of highest top speed and thrust-to-weight ratio, it'd have to be the YF-29, that tops out at Mach 10 at 10km using its pinpoint barrier and boasts a T/W ratio of 61.164, edging out the 53.085 of the YF-30 and 46.493 of the VF-27. Reactor outputs aren't listed, but the YF-29 and YF-30 can expand theirs using fold wave or fold dimension resonance systems (respectively).

[VF5SS]

The YF-30 has the highest stats and level cap in Macross 30.

it's the best ever

[azrael]

it's the best ever

According to the game mechanics.

[VF5SS]

Are you questioning Aisha's genius beauty?

[ieh4f]

well, l want to ask which one of the three will go out on top, in a one to one dogfight, with the same pilot, that is all

[Seto Kaiba]

well, l want to ask which one of the three will go out on top, in a one to one dogfight, with the same pilot, that is all

To be blunt, there's no way to know... all three of those planes have very similar weapons and all boast performance exceeding the limits of the meatbags at the controls. They should be pretty evenly matched. Brera and Alto fought to a draw in Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa in their VF-27y and YF-29 respectively, and Rod's YF-29B did pretty good against Leon's YF-30 in Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy, though Leon ultimately won in the end.

If I had to guess, I would say the YF-30 should... since its version of the fold wave system is more advanced, and it's not FUGLY.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Scream Man]

29 is the best coz I like it the most.

Makes about as much sense as anything else.

[sketchley]

(...) in their VF-27y and YF-29 (...)

Correction: it's VF-27γ (gamma), not VF-27y.

Nevertheless, I agree with the rest of your points. I'd only like to add: the VF-27 was the only one that was officially adopted (in the sense that it's a VF, not an experimental YF).

So, the VF-27 would end up being the best - not because of anything other than it's the one that has the highest degree of refinement, is the least likely to break down (as it doesn't have a bunch of unproven components in it), and has the best cost/performance ratio.

Edited April 6, 2014 by sketchley

[ieh4f]

then which one of the three is the most advanced?

and in the frontier movie didnt the cyberog mange to lock on alto, so that means vf-27 win?

and l heard yf-30 is customised to perform on a specific planet, didnt this give a edge over yf-29b, unless they fight on another planet(never play the game though)?

and finally are the macross 30 game and frontier movie cannon storywise?

[azrael]

then which one of the three is the most advanced?

Depends. YF-29 and YF-30 are technologically more advanced due to the Fold Quartz. But once you strip those away, they are similar to the VF-25 with optional parts. A VF-27's engines are weaker than the VF-25's but makes up for it by mounting 4 of them. The VF-27's control system is newer BDI/BCS system, but it forces the pilot to adopt cybernetic parts, which drives up costs. And the tit-for-tat goes on and on.

and l heard yf-30 is customised to perform on a specific planet, didnt this give a edge over yf-29b, unless they fight on another planet(never play the game though)?

The YF-29B was also modified. So it's hard to say.

and finally are the macross 30 game and frontier movie cannon storywise?

Overall story of Macross 30 is canon. Frontier movie is not canon except when you strip out the specifics of the story. BUT, the specifics of their stories COULD have happened.

[Gubaba]

Depends. YF-29 and YF-30 are technologically more advanced due to the Fold Quartz. But once you strip those away, they are similar to the VF-25 with optional parts. A VF-27's engines are weaker than the VF-25's but makes up for it by mounting 4 of them. The VF-27's control system is newer BDI/BCS system, but it forces the pilot to adopt cybernetic parts, which drives up costs. And the tit-for-tat goes on and on.

Also, the YF-29 was designed specifically as an anti-Vajra fighter. So if they're all fighting Vajra, the YF-29 would win, but if they're fighting each other, who knows?

[Seto Kaiba]

Correction: it's VF-27γ (gamma), not VF-27y.

I know, I just couldn't get a letter gamma from my smart phone's keyboard.

Nevertheless, I agree with the rest of your points. I'd only like to add: the VF-27 was the only one that was officially adopted (in the sense that it's a VF, not an experimental YF).

An excellent point... though it wasn't officially disclosed to the New UN Gov't, the VF-27 IS actually the only one on the OP's list which was mass produced and adopted by the military.

then which one of the three is the most advanced?

Theoretically, the YF-30... since its fold dimension resonance system is described as being an improved version of the YF-29's fold wave system, and they're otherwise very similar technologically. The YF-30's engines are a very slight revision of the 29's, with a mere 5kN improvement in output.

and in the frontier movie didnt the cyberog mange to lock on alto, so that means vf-27 win?

and l heard yf-30 is customised to perform on a specific planet, didnt this give a edge over yf-29b, unless they fight on another planet(never play the game though)?

Well, that's debatable... Brera was shooting to kill Alto, while Alto wasn't trying to kill Brera. Is it really a fair indicator of performance if the killing intent in the fight is one-sided?

The YF-30 was, yes, designed to operate on Ouroboros... but the YF-29B seems to do just fine there as well, considering it was Havamal's top of the line.

Edited April 6, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

I know, I just couldn't get a letter gamma from my smart phone's keyboard.

Wouldn't copying and pasting from a site that has it work? Ie: copying lowercase gamma from here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

I guess I should be thankful that I'm using a Japanese IME*, and all I have to do is type in がんま and cycle through the possible renditions.

* technically it's a J-Win PC, but the standard IME functions are pretty much the same across all variants of the OS.

[Isamu Dyson]

Best overall fighter?

Ha! It's not the plane my friend but the pilot that makes the difference.

Give Isamu or Max a VF-1 and they'll smoke any one on any fighter.

[Seto Kaiba]

Wouldn't copying and pasting from a site that has it work? Ie: copying lowercase gamma from here: [...]

... wish I'd thought of that when I was writing that post. Oh well... we shiv and burn live and learn.

Best overall fighter?

Ha! It's not the plane my friend but the pilot that makes the difference.

Give Isamu or Max a VF-1 and they'll smoke any one on any fighter.

Kinda reminds me of Mariafokina Barnrose making Aegis sweat by going up against him in a VF-1X.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

Best overall fighter?

Ha! It's not the plane my friend but the pilot that makes the difference.

Give Isamu or Max a VF-1 and they'll smoke any one on any fighter.

unless basara takes miria's

[azrael]

Kinda reminds me of Mariafokina Barnrose making Aegis sweat by going up against him in a VF-1X.

Isn't it possible to play through VF-X2 with just the VF-1? Or do you have to fly what they give you (I know you can't pick for that VA-3M mission)? Can't remember....

[D.D. Ivanov]

Isn't it possible to play through VF-X2 with just the VF-1? Or do you have to fly what they give you (I know you can't pick for that VA-3M mission)? Can't remember....

Aside from that and maybe the König Monster mission, you can use whatever VF you want. I doubt the feasibility of beating Wilbur Garland's VF-22 though, Suzie won't be of any help whatsoever.

[Zinjo]

Correction: it's VF-27γ (gamma), not VF-27y.

Nevertheless, I agree with the rest of your points. I'd only like to add: the VF-27 was the only one that was officially adopted (in the sense that it's a VF, not an experimental YF).

So, the VF-27 would end up being the best - not because of anything other than it's the one that has the highest degree of refinement, is the least likely to break down (as it doesn't have a bunch of unproven components in it), and has the best cost/performance ratio.

Correction: The YF-29 is a final prototype for testing, as indicated by the "Y" prefix. An "Experimental" aircraft would have an "X" prefix... Granted, in Kawamor's Macross the "X" seems to follow the VF designation (I have no idea why) as in VF-X, VFX-11, or SW-XAxx (Stealth Wing-X).

Edited April 7, 2014 by Zinjo

[Isamu Dyson]

unless basara takes miria's

Yeah I didn't forget about Basara. He definitely is one of the best pilots in Macross but not as a fighter pilot. He scores a perfect 10 on defensive skill but 0 on offence unless you count enemies that have a problem with singing. His singing will have zero affect on another human pilot or cyborg. You gotta give props to Isamu cuz he's still kicking ass in an outdated YF-19 with super parts while every one else is flying a souped up VF-25/27/29.

[Gubaba]

You gotta give props to Isamu cuz he's still kicking ass in an outdated YF-19 with super parts while every one else is flying a souped up VF-25/27/29.

That's... not an outdated YF-19 at all... It's a VF-19ADVANCE...

EDIT: Used "Y" instead of "V"...

Edited April 8, 2014 by Gubaba

[Isamu Dyson]

That's... not an outdated YF-19 at all... It's a YF-19ADVANCE...

If it transforms into battroid without a uniboob and looks like an Evangelion, then I'll agree with ya. For now.......he's flying old school with new school super packs. So nyahhh

[Gubaba]

If it transforms into battroid without a uniboob and looks like an Evangelion, then I'll agree with ya. For now.......he's flying old school with new school super packs. So nyahhh

Well, the novelization of "Wings of Farewell" calls it a VF-19ADVANCE, and the "Wings of Farewell Official Complete Book" says it's not a YF-19, but just colored like it... (Heck, even a Google search gets a lot of hits.) So, uh... what's YOUR source...?

[Seto Kaiba]

Correction: The YF-29 is a final prototype for testing, as indicated by the "Y" prefix. An "Experimental" aircraft would have an "X" prefix... Granted, in Kawamor's Macross the "X" seems to follow the VF designation (I have no idea why) as in VF-X, VFX-11, or SW-XAxx (Stealth Wing-X).

Eh... depending on what sources you look at, there's a bit of variance in where the X lands... the VF-X-# is the most common, but we've also seen VFX-# and XVF-# on occasion. Also, once, VF-X#.

Well, the novelization of "Wings of Farewell" calls it a VF-19ADVANCE, and the "Wings of Farewell Official Complete Book" says it's not a YF-19, but just colored like it... (Heck, even a Google search gets a lot of hits.) So, uh... what's YOUR source...?

If it helps, Macross Chronicle has also explicitly identified Isamu's VF-19 from Sayonara no Tsubasa as the VF-19ADVANCE on the ALL 01B mechanic sheet, so it appears that the novel designation has been adopted as the official one. A shame they didn't also print it as such in the Official Complete Book, which calls it only "VF-19 SMS Ver."

[Isamu Dyson]

Well, the novelization of "Wings of Farewell" calls it a VF-19ADVANCE, and the "Wings of Farewell Official Complete Book" says it's not a YF-19, but just colored like it... (Heck, even a Google search gets a lot of hits.) So, uh... what's YOUR source...?

Okay, okay you got me.

I was just hero worshipping. Going a little off topic since we are on the subject, since this fighter has an SMS brand and was shown in Sayonara Tsubasa - Does Bandai technically have the rights to make their toy version? I think it would be very interesting to see Bandai's version match with Arcadia.

[Andras]

I found this with google, it is correct?
http://archive.foolz.us/m/thread/7005272/

He wanted a VF-19 modified with current tech. He was given a VF-19C outfitted with EX-Gear, the VF-25's active stealth system and SWAG energy conversion armor, improved engines, a Howard GU-17A 58mm gatling gun pod, and hardpoints for the SPS-25S/MF25 Super FAST Pack.

[Seto Kaiba]

I found this with google, it is correct?

http://archive.foolz.us/m/thread/7005272/

As far as I am aware, having not read the Macross Frontier movie novelizations, it isn't... what Chronicle had to say about it was the underlying airframe is a VF-19E, with some (non-specific) parts exchanged for those from a VF-19A, the airframe control AI from the YF-19, and equipping the SPS-25 Super Pack booster units from the VF-25.

(Source: Macross Chronicle Mechanic Sheet ALL 01B.)

Edited April 8, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Renato]

Not to take this further off topic, but since it came up, what is the deal with the VF-19E? I seem to recall that in the VF Master File book it was the base for the 19Kai, but I think M30 depicts it with a Yf-19 airframe. And of course, Seto quotes the Chronicle as saying that the E is based on the YF... I know that the Master File books are not considered canon, but it sounds like a pretty big inconsistency there.

[Seto Kaiba]

Not to take this further off topic, but since it came up, what is the deal with the VF-19E? I seem to recall that in the VF Master File book it was the base for the 19Kai, but I think M30 depicts it with a Yf-19 airframe. And of course, Seto quotes the Chronicle as saying that the E is based on the YF... I know that the Master File books are not considered canon, but it sounds like a pretty big inconsistency there.

Well, that's a sticky wicket... the VF-19E is not something we've seen in an "unaltered" state, barring the two candidates for VF-19E in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-19 Excalibur and Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy.

My interpretation (and it is only an interpretation) of the available evidence would be that Macross 30 has the right version of it and Master File, which was never intended to be an official resource, is wide of the mark. Mechanic Sheet ALL 01B seems like it's implying that Basara's VF-19 Custom was customized from a VF-19F (which would be consistent with some of its older stats, which originally listed it as using the same engine as the -F type) instead of a VF-19E with a pseudo-kai head (Chronicle also described the Custom's head as a one-off or "exclusive" type). Isamu's VF-19 ADVANCE is described as a VF-19E with some parts borrowed from the VF-19A and YF-19, but mostly looks like a VF-19A/YF-19. The VF-19E Monkey Model from Macross the Ride has more VF-19F/S traits, but it's also supposed to be pretty heavily modified from the basic design. Aisha's VF-19E from Macross 30 is the only time we've had a source that is (apparently) in continuity say "This is a stock VF-19E".

[Renato]

It's odd... Stats aside, the Kai being configured from an F means that they would have had to change the wings and add canards, among other things. But those wings and canards are present at least in the P variant, officially.

Yeah, Aisha's fighter is a VF-19E, but looks no different to a YF-19 or VF-19A, yet is worlds apart from the depiction of the E in the Master File book.

[sketchley]

(...) yet is worlds apart from the depiction of the E in the Master File book.

As great an asset as those books are, its best to not reference them in discussions about the official setting (especially, but not limited to, some of the munchkin wonkiness that they come up with).

Now, if you're running an RPG or writing a fanfic, they're great sources, as long as one is mindful about using only the stuff that doesn't contradict the official setting.

The VF-19E is one of the odd ones, as the VFMF:VF-19 was the first time that I remember seeing the designation (and description) for it, but the official settings for later released movies and games later mention it, thereby eclipsing the VFMF version and shoving it out into the cold.

[Seto Kaiba]

It's odd... Stats aside, the Kai being configured from an F means that they would have had to change the wings and add canards, among other things. But those wings and canards are present at least in the P variant, officially.

Well, on that front there is a potential (admittedly non-official) answer from Master File, which suggests that the VF-19's wings are modular, and that the F/S type actually has two different wing designs for various operating conditions. (See VFMF: VF-19 pg80)

To me, that doesn't seem an unreasonable explanation for it, since the official line art and animation shows us that, in terms of its transformation, the VF-19's wings are only really held on at the one point. Swapping the short, stubby wings of the VF-19F/S out with the longer all-regime wing shouldn't be that arduous. Nor should installing the canards, when you consider that, while they're doing that they were also fitting the VF-19 Custom with a bunch of one-off and non-standard experimental hardware like that new, one-off monitor turret, the speaker and projector systems in the shoulders, the custom cockpit, swapping the engines, and so on.

The VF-19P's not the only VF-19F/S type with canards or a non-standard wing design too... the VF-19EF and VF-19ACTIVE are both in that category as well.

Yeah, Aisha's fighter is a VF-19E, but looks no different to a YF-19 or VF-19A, yet is worlds apart from the depiction of the E in the Master File book.

So? Appearances can be deceiving, one shouldn't judge a book by its cover, and all that rot.

The VF-19A doesn't look any different from a YF-19, but there are "under the hood" changes to make the mass production type more stable and reliable. Likewise, from what we've seen of the VF-19C, that variant doesn't have much in the way of externally visible differences from the VF-19A (the VF-19C/MG21 just has some pointy bits on the stabilizers). There's little to distinguish the VF-11B from the VF-11C, or the game version VF-4G from the VF-4A.

Admittedly, the description in Macross Chronicle's glossary sheets indicates that the VF-19E may not be entirely identical to a VF-19A externally... it mentions some refinements to the aerodynamics to improve control, and the VF-19F/S is mentioned as having removed/abolished some of the airframe's concessions to aerodynamics, presumably because they'd be unnecessary for what's essentially a space-optimized VF-19 variant.

(I'm given to understand that the novelization of Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy identifies Aisha's VF-19E as yet another customized VF-19E variant, assigning it the name VF-19E/MF.)

[Gubaba]

Bear in mind at this point that upon Focker dying by killing Kamujin, Seto said, "He [meaning Kamujin] didn't die," despite a clear caption in the Gold Book: "Kamujin dies."

I'm not saying Seto's lying, I'm just saying he may be misinformed.

[Seto Kaiba]

Bear in mind at this point that upon Focker dying by killing Kamujin, Seto said, "He [meaning Kamujin] didn't die," despite a clear caption in the Gold Book: "Kamujin dies."

Bear in mind that my statement was, in fact, entirely accurate because I was talking about the two video game prequels from the Macross II: Lovers Again timeline, in which Kamjin is shown to be very much alive (albeit a little bit mangled). It's rather hard to argue otherwise, in light of Macross 2036 having Britai positively identify him and the fact that both games use him as the main antagonist of their respective stories.

So, did you have an actual point to go with your visceral demonstration of "being misinformed"? Something actually relevant to the thread, perhaps?

I'm not saying Seto's lying, I'm just saying he may be misinformed.

Oh, it's certainly possible with respect to the Macross 30 novelization. I haven't yet read it myself, the alternate designation of Aisha's VF-19E was something pointed out to me by a friend. That's why I said that it was something I was given to understand, rather than something I knew.

However... the other information I cited is sound. You'll note that I did cite the source for the VF-19 having alternate wing types out of Master File. The remarks WRT the VF-19 Custom are sourced from Mechanic Sheet ALL 01B, which identifies the head from Basara's VF-19 Custom as an "exclusive" unit and a difference from the VF-19F base spec, along with the changes to the control system (guitar controller), while the Macross Compendium's VF-19 entry talks about the speakers and so on. That the VF-19EF and VF-19ACTIVE have canards and non-F/S type wings is obvious just from looking at their models and art in either Dengeki Hobby magazine or the Visual Books (I have the latter). The VF-19A differences from the YF-19 spec are listed, in brief, on ALL 01B, while the VF-19C is presented more or less identically in Master File and Macross the Ride as being the same type as the VF-19A (the only visible difference being the aforementioned pointy bits on the stabilizers on the VF-19C/MG21). The descriptions that indicate changes to airframe shape were carried out to improve stability, and the removal of some aerodynamic equipment from the -F type, are also on Mechanic Sheet ALL 01B.

I think I did an OK job of sourcing what I'm saying here, all told.

Mechanic Sheet ALL 01B does offer quite a few interesting insights into the VF-19's many variants... including apparently taking down the Master File concepts for the VF-19B and -E. I just wish it had included some of the ones from Macross the Ride as well. I'm quite fond of the Nothung.