VF5SS Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 When Renato and I did a podcast talking about Takatoku that was apparently true even back with the 1/55 Valkyries. I've talked to some small western toy makers and sometimes they just do it for the love of the hobby. People find a niche and manage to scrape by somehow. Plus companies like Bandai have much more successful things to prop them up.
VALKYRIE ACE PILOT Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Actually, during the same Q&A session Producer Kawamori complained that the 3 pillars of Macross limited what he could do story wise. He wanted to get rid of one to be able to tell a new type of Macross story. He already did this once with the Musiculture. Then...How could we explain the existence of "The Ride" or "thrash" ? or How could we explain they were allowed to release by using the "Macross trademark" ? Wasn´t there something missing on them?
Dynaman Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Then...How could we explain the existence of "The Ride" or "thrash" ? or How could we explain they were allowed to release by using the "Macross trademark" ? Wasn´t there something missing on them? I did not read the original article (probably can't read it) but I'm sure Kawamari meant that they were limited in what could be released as animation - not manga or books, etc..
Renato Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 Oskull -- Takatoku, who made excellent and immensely popular toys, went bankrupt for a reason.
VF5SS Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 Oskull -- Takatoku, who made excellent and immensely popular toys, went bankrupt for a reason. Orguss (and Dorvack)
VF5SS Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 we just said that dorvack, orguss, (and Sasuraiger! Sasuraiger yeaaaah!)
Bariaburu Faita Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I have never heard about companies with a business model like that and still doing it for years...is this just for fun? the list of companies that have been doing this and going bankrupt is quite long. including one that specialized in Macross valkyries.
jvmacross Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 we just said that dorvack, orguss, (and Sasuraiger! Sasuraiger yeaaaah!) You don't think that article would be interesting to read....especially by some of the newer board members that may not be familiar with the history behind Takatoku's eventual demise?
Gubaba Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 YOU can't infer what my answer would be based on my post?.....sorry I can't possibly make it any simpler for you..... It was a Socratic question, intended to make you re-think your position, which is nicer than flat-out saying, "You're wrong."
Kronnang Dunn Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) I really wouldn't mind a new Macross series set in an entirely new universe. After all, the Gundam franchise has several already... (UC, CE, AC, AD, AW, FC, RC, etc.etc.). Edited May 23, 2014 by Kronnang Dunn
Oskull Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 http://www.toyboxdx.com/datafiles/data/takatoku2/ At first sight it is hard to believe but of course any good example is always welcome.
jvmacross Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 (edited) It was a Socratic question, intended to make you re-think your position, which is nicer than flat-out saying, "You're wrong." So I'm wrong because I pointed out that it is logical for a 30 dollar CD to outsell a 200 dollar toy? You are pure genius...and I mean that in the nicest way! Edited May 23, 2014 by jvmacross
Kelsain Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I'm leery of an alternate universe idea. I think the concept works sometimes, and I could agree that MtF could be considered an alt. timeline. After all, they have cell phones - in the original timeline, cell phones achieved popularity sometime between 2040 & 2059. Prior to MtF, I've always figured that the Unification War & Zentradi attack completely changed the development path of technology. Anyway, I've always like that the Macross franchise has stuck to the timeline. Kawamori's insistence that the shows are dramatic interpretations of real events gives it some flexibility, but everything occurs and contributes to an overall narrative framework. I'd be perfectly happy to explore the missing 30 years. I think that the Macross technology moving forward from Frontier is going to start being too advanced & alien. The Frontier era valkyries are already looking to kibbly for my tastes, and I would love a return to the cleaner lines and efficient design seen in the VF-1, 11 & (to a lesser extent) 19. Not holding my breath, though.
Mr March Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 Kronnang Dunn I agree it could be very exciting if for no other reason than it opens possibilities to play with aspects of the Macross universe that have been established and unchanged thus far. The alternate universe would also allow the official continuity to be unaffected. At any rate, it's just another consideration for the new Macross series. Kelsain I like the official Macross continuity as well, but I do enjoy thinking about some of the possibilities an unrestricted blank slate could produce. Might be a great way to inject more dynamism into a new Maross series. I've heard the critique before that Macross technology is becoming prohibitively advanced, but I've not been convinced the fictional technology has any relevant story impact at all. In fact, the technology seems largely stagnant if you measure it against almost any story element. Pin point barriers, fold waves, inertia store converters, linear actuators and all the rest SOUND really high tech, but what actual scene-to-scene effect do they have on anything in the animation? Can you tell that the VF-25 Messiah's linear actuators are supposedly transforming FAR FASTER than a VF-1 Valkyrie? Is the VF-25's ICS system allowing some Valkyrie aerial acrobatics we haven't already seen in Macross? I sure don't see any such differences. The universe has aged 50 years and we still have human-piloted variable fighters firing machine guns at each other. No quantifiable difference can be seen visually in any animated scene whether it's the VF-0 Phoenix firing it's GPU-9 gunpod or the VF-25 Messiah firing it's GU-17 Gun Pod; the effect is still a ballistic gun blasting some enemy to bits. Most of this Macross technology is all academic for the sake of trivia fans like myself, but it results in almost no measureable difference in any visual or narrative context. If it did, Kawamori and Co. wouldn't write it. Kawamori's already written these Macross stories with tech for Plus and Frontier, so I don't think there's any chance of the Macross technology getting away from him.
Zinjo Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Bariaburu Fighter hit the nail on the head. The Parallel World theory applies to ALL Macross according to Kawamori's current stance on the issue. Personally I think that this is just easier for him to explain than the 'WW2 documentary' explanation over and over again. Theres even a section about it in the extras of the new MacF Shudisuta BD box. Everything is cannon. And nothing is cannon. Wow he's held the idea of the dramatic telling of historical events since 1998. This is quite the flip!! Although, it isn't his first... I have to agree it's probably less controversial for him than his long held position. I recall when Ron Moore basically told the fan base on the BSG forums that on BSG, drama supercedes technical accuracy. I admired that confession by Mr. Moore, several others hated it. I guess he feels that if "EVERYTHING" is a parallel universe then he can do whatever he wants and is justified, because no holy canon was disturbed in the making of a good new story...
Gubaba Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 So I'm wrong because I pointed out that it is logical for a 30 dollar CD to outsell a 200 dollar toy? You are pure genius...and I mean that in the nicest way! Nicely, you suggested cutting out one of of the two most profitable "pillars" in favor of the least profitable. That's all I was sayin' (nicely, of course). Mecha doesn't sell. Music and girls do. I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the reality.
jvmacross Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Nicely, you suggested cutting out one of of the two most profitable "pillars" in favor of the least profitable. That's all I was sayin' (nicely, of course). Mecha doesn't sell. Music and girls do. I don't like it any more than you do, but that's the reality. Nope...wrong again Gubaba....all I said was that eliminating the transforming mecha pillar would upset many long time fans especially when it comes to an amimated TV series... Let's face it, each of those "pillars" are dependent on the other, eliminate any one of them in a new animated series and someone is bound to get miffed.... That's why Kawamori was complaining...apparently there must be a lot of pushback from the major sponsors of his work, namely Bandai, when it comes to altering the 30 year formula of Macross animated works, regardless of what aspect of the show garners more sales....seems like it is an all or nothing requirement for a Macross TV show to receive financial sponsorship....I for one have no problem with that....he's always free to continue to "experiment" via other media....like "Musiculture" which hardly anyone on this board, the world...or even Japan has ever seen....
VF5SS Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Upsetting longtime fans isn't really a problem anymore because they are being outnumbered by the new ones. That's progress.
jvmacross Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Not progress....just change.... However, it is irrelevant....as the next TV show will include transforming mecha....unless you are suggesting it will not? So if the next TV show still includes all three Pillars of Macross....what exactly will be the point of saying that one of the pillars is responsible for more of Macross sales/profits than the others? The fact is all three are required to continue to generate any interest in a Macross TV show....especially from a sponsor's pov....there is 30 years of proof to back up that claim....it is what it is...
Seto Kaiba Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 However, it is irrelevant....as the next TV show will include transforming mecha....unless you are suggesting it will not? Er... gents, isn't it a bit early to be boldly proclaiming what the next Macross series will and won't include? To be, trying to predict what Studio Nue will do with the next Macross series is a bit of a trick, since one thing Macross has made a habit of is dramatically mixing it up. They followed Macross Plus, one of the most serious and straightforward titles in the metaseries, with Macross 7... a hotblooded, over-the-top spectacle where a guitarist fights space demons with the power of rock. I don't see any point in forming convoluted expectations of the series when Kawamori and co. will almost certainly blindside us with something else entirely. As I see it, why look a gift horse in the mouth? We're getting a new Macross series, and I doubt it'll disappoint no matter where Kawamori and company take it.
Gubaba Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Nope...wrong again Gubaba....all I said was that eliminating the transforming mecha pillar would upset many long time fans especially when it comes to an amimated TV series... And how many of those "long-time fans" exist in the target market range of any new series...?
VF5SS Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Not progress....just change.... However, it is irrelevant....as the next TV show will include transforming mecha....unless you are suggesting it will not? It could easily include mecha in the same secondary capacity AKB0048 did. You know that other show Kawamori did which was more Macross than Macross.
jvmacross Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Er... gents, isn't it a bit early to be boldly proclaiming what the next Macross series will and won't include? To be, trying to predict what Studio Nue will do with the next Macross series is a bit of a trick, since one thing Macross has made a habit of is dramatically mixing it up. They followed Macross Plus, one of the most serious and straightforward titles in the metaseries, with Macross 7... a hotblooded, over-the-top spectacle where a guitarist fights space demons with the power of rock. I don't see any point in forming convoluted expectations of the series when Kawamori and co. will almost certainly blindside us with something else entirely. As I see it, why look a gift horse in the mouth? We're getting a new Macross series, and I doubt it'll disappoint no matter where Kawamori and company take it. It's really not that bold of a statement.....for 30 years...Macross animated productions have included the 3 pillars of Macross...transforming mecha, Music, and Love triangles......it's just as bold a statement as saying that Star Wars: Episode 7 will include aliens, lightsabres, and spaceships.... Like Episode 7, I have no clue what the background story for the next Macross TV show will be (I'm happy to wait and find out, but I also do like me some good old fashioned speculation!).....but I know what has a high probablility of making it onscreen based on what has come before it.....that is all I am saying...nothing more or less..... And how many of those "long-time fans" exist in the target market range of any new series...? Read my post...it does not matter...sheesh!
jvmacross Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 It could easily include mecha in the same secondary capacity AKB0048 did. You know that other show Kawamori did which was more Macross than Macross. So then what is the point of making an argument for eliminating transforming mecha, or any of the other pillars from Macross??? It apparently, based on the past 30 years of Macross TV shows, is approached as a "package" by those funding it's development as a televised series...again, Kawamori is complaining about that....but to who...the fans? Impossible.....based on the argument that music is where it is at and all that is required.....He is complaining because the sponsors just do not want to risk their investment in making a Macross TV show that is too "different" from what they are used to sponsoring for the last 30 years....I am not making any of this stuff up....it is all based on actual observations of what has actually made it to the screen....unless there are some ultra secret Macross TV series that only some fans are aware of? Did that gritty Destroid pilot drama get animated and televised in Japan and everyone else in the world missed it???
sketchley Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 They followed Macross Plus, one of the most serious and straightforward titles in the metaseries, with Macross 7... Technically they were released at the same time...
Gubaba Posted May 24, 2014 Posted May 24, 2014 Read my post...it does not matter...sheesh! Sorry, you;re right. I'm wrong. Everyone LOVES mecha!
jvmacross Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 Sorry, you;re right. I'm wrong. Everyone LOVES mecha! No apologies required!!! .....as for "everyone" loving mecha.....heck if I know...but apparently, to the chagrin of Kawamori, his Macross TV show sponsors for the last 30 years sure do...
Seto Kaiba Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 Technically they were released at the same time... Technically, yes... but Macross Plus preceded Macross 7 in release order by what, about two months? (August vs. October?) That'd be a hell of a case of mood whiplash for someone going from Macross Plus episode 1 to Macross 7 episode 1.
sketchley Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 Technically, yes... but Macross Plus preceded Macross 7 in release order by what, about two months? (August vs. October?) That'd be a hell of a case of mood whiplash for someone going from Macross Plus episode 1 to Macross 7 episode 1. Just the first episodes, right? The other 3 episodes were released during M7's broadcast, and I remember one of the mysteries of M+ that M7 took pains to preserve (at the time) was which VF won M+'s Project Super Nova (as it takes place earlier in the timeline).
Seto Kaiba Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 Just the first episodes, right? The other 3 episodes were released during M7's broadcast, and I remember one of the mysteries of M+ that M7 took pains to preserve (at the time) was which VF won M+'s Project Super Nova (as it takes place earlier in the timeline). Yeah... looking at the air date charts, the Macross Plus OVA got its second episode a few days before Macross 7 episode 12 went to air. Must've been some REAL mood whiplash going back and forth between Macross Plus's more serious tone and Macross 7 when Macross Plus episode 2. Just goes to show Kawamori and company's propensity for doing the unexpected and mixing it up. I couldn't begin to guess what we're going to get when the new series airs, but it'll be a fun ride for sure.
Gubaba Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 No apologies required!!! .....as for "everyone" loving mecha.....heck if I know...but apparently, to the chagrin of Kawamori, his Macross TV show sponsors for the last 30 years sure do... I think you have it backwards... Kawamori still loves designing mecha... much to the chagrin of Bandai, who'd honestly rather be making Sheryl and Ranka figures...
jvmacross Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 I think you have it backwards... Kawamori still loves designing mecha... much to the chagrin of Bandai, who'd honestly rather be making Sheryl and Ranka figures... Huh? So Bandai is chagrined at being relegated to produce everything and anything related to their Macross licenses??? Why in the world would they not milk their license to produce anything, including PT VF's, to maximize total aggregated profits? When did Macross F air? 2008? And Bandai is still "begrudgingly" cranking out PT VF toys from that series....with no end in sight...well...until the VF toys from the new show come out I guess.....right?
Renato Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 Actually, it seems to me that Bandai is sort of playing catch-up. Bandai wanted NOTHING to do with Macross for the longest time, and even when the Deculture edition was still in production (and I think maybe even after it aired in December 2007) I believe Bandai was not yet on board. It was not until after the Deculture episode proved the potential of the show that Bandai came around. Why else would Bandai have put their B-team (Boys' Hobby Division) on the first VF-25 Chogokin design, which ended up being total garbage, instead of the A-team (Collectors Division), as they have done for these new products that are ONLY NOW coming out five years after the show ended. Bandai had ZERO to do with Macross Zero (aptly, haha), and whenever Yamato brought out a new VF-1, Bandai woke up from its slumber and churned out reissue after reissue of the 1/55s. They still have not made a full Chogokin of the Aquarion Evol figure. Bandai has had decades of not giving a crap about Macross and until very recently its releases tended to be reactionary, to capitalize on a market made lucrative by competitors.
VF5SS Posted May 25, 2014 Posted May 25, 2014 So Bandai is chagrined at being relegated to produce everything and anything related to their Macross licenses??? Why in the world would they not milk their license to produce anything, including PT VF's, to maximize total aggregated profits? It costs a lot of money to design and produce a transforming robot toy which is not true of a fixed posed figure. It is why there are at least ten times the number of Sheryl and Ranka figures when compared to the Valkyries which at best are at four unique molds for Frontier stuff. You see it with the YF-29 and how they are trying to release more variants so they can recoup their initial investment in creating all the tooling so they produce them in low numbers just enough to turn a profit.
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