Valkyrie Weapons Parity Observation

[Mommar]

Last night I was messing around with my Isamu YF-29 and thinking about some of the criticisms it's received for being very "Super Robot" like in many respects. It obviously has a lot of pointy bits hanging off of it and it's bristling with weapons. It got me thinking about the different weapon load-outs on all of the Valks and I realized that it took iterations from the 19, 21/22, 24/25/27 to eventually reach weapon load out parity with the VF-17. Something I found funny considering the 17 is about the opposite of the 29 in look (though no less pointy.)

But look at it. The 17 has medium cannons in the forearms, the 29 has the high bore cannons on it's back. The 17 has the smaller cannons mounted towards the cockpit/chest. The 29 has smaller cannons in the wing roots which become the greeble bits on the hips in Gerwalk/Battroid. The 17 and 29 both have their main gun pods. They both also have rear facing light lasers as well. In addition the 17 has internal mini-missiles launchers in the shoulders. The 29 has the same. The 17 has internal room for heavier missiles as well, the 29 instead has more mini-missiles mounted to the legs. And that's before either of them have their Fast Packs mounted, which gives them both a lot more missiles. That's some pretty effective craft when you consider how little some of the other fighters carry. The VF-1 and 11 both only have their small bore lasers, gun pod and wing mounted missiles on their own. They seem positively defenseless.

I thought it was interesting one extremely showy Valk and one very utilitarian looking Valk both wind up having very similar loud outs.

[VF5SS]

I think any main character Valkyrie past the VF-1 is basically a super robot. They're just good at looking like real airplanes as way to convince us otherwise.

[Mr March]

The Valkyries have always been a little "Super Robot", a legacy effect in the transition from Super Robot to Real Robot anime. But I don't know if the YF-29 is all that "Super", it's just more overtly flashy in that high-powered anime kinda of way. Who knows if it's actual firepower is all that great compared to other Valkyries. The show as a story has to distinguish the YF-29 Durandal so the audience knows it's a step above the others and may exaggerate that for dramatic effect.

Personally, I shy away from judging "firepower parity" when comparing Valkyries because we know too little about the actual destructive power of each weapon or why they are the chosen loadouts for a given design. It's also the case that Valkyries have changed roles over the in-universe decades when the Macross sequels told different kinds of stories. I don't think the VF-17 Nightmare is necessarily the most heavily armed Valkyrie just because it's gun count is greater than another Valkyrie. The Nightmare is designed a certain way for a specific type of combat role and that's why it's gun count is as such. What that is, we don't really know. Perhaps the gun count is for greater firepower, but maybe not. Perhaps the gun count is for combat versatility or to offset a weakness suffered by the VF-17 design that other Valkyries don't suffer (too heavy? too slow? not as maneuverable?).

Think of things this way; the VF-1 Valkyrie was - at the time - considered the standard combat aerospace craft for the UN Spacy. The VF-1 Valkyrie weighed 13.25 tons when empty and it was armed with a 55mm Gun Pod. By the time of the Macross Plus era (2040), a 12.0 ton Valkyrie armed with a 40mm Gun Pod was considered a "heavy" Valkyrie and that craft was called the VF-17 Nightmare. On paper the VF-1 seems to be a heavier, more deadlier armed Valkyrie than the VF-17 Nightmare. But as I said, we don't know enough about why that is and there's every likelihood that the reverse is true despite the few specifications for these VFs that we do know. We also might not have the full picture. Was the VF-11B Thunderbolt under-armed because the designers knew a Super Pack and Armored Pack was being built for them anyway? The VF-17 Nightmare does not seem to have any Armored Pack (trivia states it's armor is equivalent to an Armored Pack) so maybe it needs all it's many guns to compensate for the lack of the extra weapons found in an Armored Type.

I think it's better to follow a few simple rules when rationalizing the armaments of the Valkyries given the lack of information we have about them. We don't really know what combat role is chosen for each individual Valkyrie (beyond vague terms like main fighter or special operations or heavy battroid). The Macross stories don't help either, since the shows depict the same Valkyries used in all kinds of operational sorties with no real performance difference described between any of them. So I stick to this

• The Valkyries - like any technology - will improve over time
• The role of each Valkyrie will determine the armament

The statistics seem to support these assumptions. The Valkyries become lighter and faster as time goes on and feature more advanced technologies and weapons absent in the Valkyries that came before. The loadout of a given Valkyrie will be determined by the role it will take and might not necessarily be more heavily armed than another different loadout for a different Valkyrie.

One last note, the gun pod calibers might not necessarily follow a linear progression over time. Bigger isn't always better, so there could be reasons why the gun pods fluctuate in round size over time. Macross trivia has made mention of muzzle velocity many times over the many shows, starting with SDF Macross. The VF-1 Valkyrie's 55mm gun pod may seem more deadly on paper than the VF-11 Thunderbolt's 30mm Gun Pod. However, if the VF-11's 30mm gun is firing a heavier or faster round than the VF-1's 55mm gun, it would be a more devastating weapon.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Mr March

[VF5SS]

"Super robot" is basically a meaningless term anyways. Even trying to invoke the likes of Mazinger neglects that even in a show like Fang of the Sun Dougram, the titular machine is basically invincible because it's a main character's robot. This extends to just about every show from the 80's and beyond. Even the functional looking Scopedog is regularly seen wading through hordes of hapless grunts so long as a hero is inside it.

[Seto Kaiba]

To me, the YF-29 has always smacked more of a Gundam-style "super prototype" rather than a super robot.

Macross doesn't usually indulge in that particular trope, so when it did it seemed a bit odd to me... but I've never heard anyone attempt to lump it in with Super Robots based on appearance. It's armament isn't really what you'd call excessive (especially if you factor in the missile counts from Variable Fighter Master File for the VF-25's FAST packs). Design-wise and color-wise, it's just a bit less "subdued" than what we usually get in Macross, though it's nowhere near as over-the-top as the Sound Force VFs.

I did like the subtle acknowledgement of the YF-29's origins as the SW-XA II in Variable Fighter Master File... the YF-29 in there is painted in the same color scheme as Kawamori's second Stealth Wing X design.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Seto Kaiba

[Valkyrie Driver]

Last night I was messing around with my Isamu YF-29 and thinking about some of the criticisms it's received for being very "Super Robot" like in many respects. It obviously has a lot of pointy bits hanging off of it and it's bristling with weapons. It got me thinking about the different weapon load-outs on all of the Valks and I realized that it took iterations from the 19, 21/22, 24/25/27 to eventually reach weapon load out parity with the VF-17. Something I found funny considering the 17 is about the opposite of the 29 in look (though no less pointy.)

But look at it. The 17 has medium cannons in the forearms, the 29 has the high bore cannons on it's back. The 17 has the smaller cannons mounted towards the cockpit/chest. The 29 has smaller cannons in the wing roots which become the greeble bits on the hips in Gerwalk/Battroid. The 17 and 29 both have their main gun pods. They both also have rear facing light lasers as well. In addition the 17 has internal mini-missiles launchers in the shoulders. The 29 has the same. The 17 has internal room for heavier missiles as well, the 29 instead has more mini-missiles mounted to the legs. And that's before either of them have their Fast Packs mounted, which gives them both a lot more missiles. That's some pretty effective craft when you consider how little some of the other fighters carry. The VF-1 and 11 both only have their small bore lasers, gun pod and wing mounted missiles on their own. They seem positively defenseless.

I thought it was interesting one extremely showy Valk and one very utilitarian looking Valk both wind up having very similar loud outs.

Well, if you look at the 17 vs the 29, the 29 seems more heavily armed. But that's to be expected from a valk that's supposed to essentially be a VF-25 with built in tornado parts. The VF-17 was (at least in my mind) supposed to be a heavy assault fighter. More heavily armed than the standard fighter of the time (the VF-11B/C) meant it could tackle a wider variety of missions without the need of different super packs. Also remember the VF-1 was the first fighter, and it was appropriately armed given the time, it would outgun all 4th/5th gen jet fighters, which was really the only enemy humans could effectively compare it to at the time. The VF-11 was supposed to be a direct replacement for the VF-4/5000, which weren't much more heavily armed than the VF-1, in addition the use of super parts was to allow the VF-11 to outperform either fighter it was to replace. The VF-17 was intended to supplement the VF-11 as a special mission fighter for special squadrons. The original VF-17 had a larger compliment of weapons than the VF-171 that grew out of it, as well. That lends some credibility to my theory that the VF-17 was supposed to be a more versatile fighter than the CF valk. The YF-29 seems to be a similar concept in regards to the VF-25.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.

"Super robot" is basically a meaningless term anyways. Even trying to invoke the likes of Mazinger neglects that even in a show like Fang of the Sun Dougram, the titular machine is basically invincible because it's a main character's robot. This extends to just about every show from the 80's and beyond. Even the functional looking Scopedog is regularly seen wading through hordes of hapless grunts so long as a hero is inside it.

The definition I have always seen used for "Super Robot" is that the machine exhibits personality traits (even if rudimentary) and is considered almost a character unto itself. The Zero system in Gundam Wing tends to push the Wing Zero and Epyon into this category. Titles like Voltron and Mazinger are more what I think of as "Super Robot" and Gurren Lagan tends towards this too, especially later on.

"Real Robot" as I have always seen defined, refers to more technical machines, Gundam Shows like 08th MS Team, 0080, 0083, Thunderbolt, 00 (more so than Wing), and IBO, all fall into this category, along with FMP!, and Macross (and I'd also say MOSPEADA and FotS Dougram). Even if the Main Character's machine is seemingly invincible, that may be more a case of plot armor rather than it being a Super Robot.

Still though, I suppose it's all semantics really, and probably not worth the aggravation of arguing the point.

To me, the YF-29 has always smacked more of a Gundam-style "super prototype" rather than a super robot.

Agreed.

[kalvasflam]

The super robot aspect of Macross bothers me; it goes all the way back to Basara, why did he have a custom VF-19; I mean, how the hell did that even happen, he wasn't in the military. Now, the rationale for VF-22 I can kind of see, special limited run to keep General Galaxy Happy.

For Frontier, they at least had a plausible excuse of having VF-25 as next generation, but not in mass production yet, but all of those variations have got to be a killer for the manufacturers. Can you imagine the engineers at General Galaxy going, what the hell, another one of these things, how many variation of the same plane can we do?

[Bariaburu Faita]

One possible reason for the apparent discrepancy is that the YF-29 is a parallel world design that does not exist in all Macross timelines. Where the VF-17 has been known to exist in all of the timelines revealed so far.

In the in universe explanation could be that it is an unusual design that has low probability off coming into existence except in a few specific situations.

Speculation on my part: Like the tornado pack VF-25 for the first movie, a new toy was needed to promote and profit off of the second movie. Despite the plans of Valkyrie tech progression extablished by Producer Kawamori, the needs of the Sponsor Bandai overcame that. /tinfoil

[d3v]

The super robot aspect of Macross bothers me; it goes all the way back to Basara, why did he have a custom VF-19; I mean, how the hell did that even happen, he wasn't in the military. Now, the rationale for VF-22 I can kind of see, special limited run to keep General Galaxy Happy.

For Frontier, they at least had a plausible excuse of having VF-25 as next generation, but not in mass production yet, but all of those variations have got to be a killer for the manufacturers. Can you imagine the engineers at General Galaxy going, what the hell, another one of these things, how many variation of the same plane can we do?

All the variants are explained as all being unique fleet/corporate variations of the YF-24 Evolution. The VF-25 is the Frontier fleet's/LAI's derivative, while the VF-27 is the Galaxy fleet/General Galaxy Guld Work's interpretation. The engineers at General Galaxy aren't complaining since all they need to do is the VF-27 (and the 171 possibly keeps the union happy since it means that the line is kept running and people stay employed).

As for the YF-29, it's explained as a prototype, anti-Vajra fighter based once again on the YF-24 that also serves as a testbed for the integration of fold quartz derived technologies which we later see in the YF-30 and VF-31 (again further derivatives of the YF-24 design).

At this point, it's probably safe to say that there also exists YF/VF-26 and 28 variants of the YF-24 design used by other fleets.

[sketchley]

The engineers at General Galaxy aren't complaining since all they need to do is the VF-27 (and the 171 possibly keeps the union happy since it means that the line is kept running and people stay employed).

The bold line struck me as odd. Yes, General Galaxy (and the other manufacturers) probably have a home office and manufacturing plants at Earth, but by and large, each fleet has their own branches, each with their own manufacturing lines.

Example: the VF-1's production line was shut down on Earth way back in the 2010's. However, it is still being produced under licence throughout the galaxy, with the latest confirmed production date being 2058 (MtR) in the form of the VF-1X++. Then there's that new VF-1EX from Delta...

And then there's the craziness of General Galaxy (indirectly?) producing a VF-19 in the Galaxy Fleet in MtR!

I say indirectly, because the Galaxy Fleet is a General Galaxy sponsored corporate fleet (thus Fleet = General Galaxy), but the manufacturing plants in each fleet don't appear to be run by individual companies, but instead are run by the fleet (possibly cooperatively by several companies in each fleet), like the Three Star in the M7 Fleet (thus manufacturing plant = not General Galaxy).

... so yeah, from the Official Setting materials we've been given, there are multitudes of production lines for Valkyries throughout the galaxy, but they're not necessarily owned by the "owner" of the Valkyrie that the production line is producing.

Edited May 3, 2016 by sketchley

[d3v]

The bold line struck me as odd. Yes, General Galaxy (and the other manufacturers) probably have a home office and manufacturing plants at Earth, but by and large, each fleet has their own branches, each with their own manufacturing lines.

Example: the VF-1's production line was shut down on Earth way back in the 2010's. However, it is still being produced under licence throughout the galaxy, with the latest confirmed production date being 2058 (MtR) in the form of the VF-1X++. Then there's that new VF-1EX from Delta...

And then there's the craziness of General Galaxy (indirectly?) producing a VF-19 in the Galaxy Fleet in MtR!

I say indirectly, because the Galaxy Fleet is a General Galaxy sponsored corporate fleet (thus Fleet = General Galaxy), but the manufacturing plants in each fleet don't appear to be run by individual companies, but instead are run by the fleet (possibly cooperatively by several companies in each fleet), like the Three Star in the M7 Fleet (thus manufacturing plant = not General Galaxy).

... so yeah, from the Official Setting materials we've been given, there are multitudes of production lines for Valkyries throughout the galaxy, but they're not necessarily owned by the "owner" of the Valkyrie that the production line is producing.

Well, if 17 production lines are already established, or at least more established than 19/22 lines, then it probably did make more sense to do the 171 over updating the lines for the other two.

[sketchley]

Well, if 17 production lines are already established, or at least more established than 19/22 lines, then it probably did make more sense to do the 171 over updating the lines for the other two.

The thing is -at least in M7's case- the same production facility was used to make the VF-17, VF-19, VF-22 - and all three types of Valkyrie were produced in extremely limited numbers (less than the fingers on one hand).

The same facility was also pumping out VF-11. It's prolly a safe thing to infer that they used the same production line to produce all 4 VFs (and possibly others, too, like the VF-16).

[d3v]

The thing is -at least in M7's case- the same production facility was used to make the VF-17, VF-19, VF-22 - and all three types of Valkyrie were produced in extremely limited numbers (less than the fingers on one hand).

The same facility was also pumping out VF-11. It's prolly a safe thing to infer that they used the same production line to produce all 4 VFs (and possibly others, too, like the VF-16).

Maybe, but it seems more realistic to think that highly different VF would at least need different tooling if not outright different lines. I mean, stuff like that goes into consideration all the time when it comes to procuring real world military aircraft.

[sketchley]

Maybe, but it seems more realistic to think that highly different VF would at least need different tooling if not outright different lines. I mean, stuff like that goes into consideration all the time when it comes to procuring real world military aircraft.

I agree about the need for different tooling. The small quantity that the non-standard VF were produced in M7 is also telling. Nevertheless, the circumstances are all that us fans have got to work with...

[kalvasflam]

I like the idea of different branches of General Galaxy, that actually makes sense, each Macross fleet has their own dedicated manufacturing. So, if General Galaxy provides a base system and send it out to its different branches, those branches might be able to make smaller quantities of those crafts for specific situation, and if it turns out one of those variants had exceptional performance, they could simply pull the data back to Earth, and they could start dedicated line, and in theory, those VFs would've been already considered proven in combat situations.

It would be as if Boeing opened up a plant on each continent, sent them all designs for the F-18 E/F and let them go wild with their own local variants.

[d3v]

I like the idea of different branches of General Galaxy, that actually makes sense, each Macross fleet has their own dedicated manufacturing. So, if General Galaxy provides a base system and send it out to its different branches, those branches might be able to make smaller quantities of those crafts for specific situation, and if it turns out one of those variants had exceptional performance, they could simply pull the data back to Earth, and they could start dedicated line, and in theory, those VFs would've been already considered proven in combat situations.

It would be as if Boeing opened up a plant on each continent, sent them all designs for the F-18 E/F and let them go wild with their own local variants.

It's not just branches. LAI is an independent company and they made their own derivatives of Shinsei's YF-24 Evolution.

[Seto Kaiba]

The VF-17 was (at least in my mind) supposed to be a heavy assault fighter. More heavily armed than the standard fighter of the time (the VF-11B/C) meant it could tackle a wider variety of missions without the need of different super packs. [...] The original VF-17 had a larger compliment of weapons than the VF-171 that grew out of it, as well. That lends some credibility to my theory that the VF-17 was supposed to be a more versatile fighter than the CF valk. The YF-29 seems to be a similar concept in regards to the VF-25.

Actually, the VF-17 Nightmare was built for an incredibly specific role that the existing Main Variable Fighter (the VF-11) wasn't well suited to... stealthily waltzing right up to the enemy and pinpoint attacks on high-value targets. Its abnormally heavy armor, design emphasis on space performance, and almost exclusively short-ranged armament made it a fairly effective space dogfighter... and that's mostly how it was used in Macross 7.

In a way, the VF-171 was kind of the VF-17 having the last laugh in Project Super Nova. The VF-19 and VF-22 were designed for similar operating conditions (though with more versatility), and when those unstable superstars self-destructed the UN Spacy said "We had the VF-17 for this and it worked fine... can't we just make that better at other stuff?".

The super robot aspect of Macross bothers me; it goes all the way back to Basara, why did he have a custom VF-19; I mean, how the hell did that even happen, he wasn't in the military.

That's actually got a fairly straightforward explanation.

Y'see... the VF-19 Custom was built as an experimental platform for a top-secret military research program called Project M, which was researching song energy and developing more direct applications of the Minmay Attack. Basara seems to have simply been a nearly ideal test subject, as he was a singer who was also an exceptional pilot and his trusted foster father and band manager had close ties to the military. Effectively, the secret program was able to hide in plain sight disguised as a prop for a civilian rock band's guitarist, who was apparently too self-absorbed to question where his manager had obtained a state-of-the-art fighter. (Or perhaps clever enough to realize he didn't want to know the answer.)

For Frontier, they at least had a plausible excuse of having VF-25 as next generation, but not in mass production yet, but all of those variations have got to be a killer for the manufacturers. Can you imagine the engineers at General Galaxy going, what the hell, another one of these things, how many variation of the same plane can we do?

The VF-25's differences and number of variants weren't really that far off what previous generations had... so I can't imagine that Shinsei and LAI were too upset, especially when the special purpose variants still share like 95% of the hardware with the typical mass-production model.

One possible reason for the apparent discrepancy is that the YF-29 is a parallel world design that does not exist in all Macross timelines. Where the VF-17 has been known to exist in all of the timelines revealed so far.

That appears to have been torpedoed via Macross R, Macross 30, and Master File. The YF-29 is supposedly part of the reason for the VF-27's final design (specs were leaked to General Galaxy by LAI), the NUNS in 2060 had some YF-29's, and Master File also mentions the YF-29 in connection with the VF-25's development.

In the in universe explanation could be that it is an unusual design that has low probability off coming into existence except in a few specific situations.

Speculation on my part: Like the tornado pack VF-25 for the first movie, a new toy was needed to promote and profit off of the second movie. Despite the plans of Valkyrie tech progression extablished by Producer Kawamori, the needs of the Sponsor Bandai overcame that. /tinfoil

The rough sketch of the YF-29 in Kawamori's biography is actually VF-25 line art with the wings and body erased and roughed in with the -29 configuration in pencil... so there may be something to that, though the design's origins seem to go back to the early 2000s and the SW-XA stuff done for VF-Experiment. (The Master File YF-29 is in the same colors as the SW-XAII Schneegans.)

At this point, it's probably safe to say that there also exists YF/VF-26 and 28 variants of the YF-24 design used by other fleets.

Master File mentons a YF-26 as a rejected design from the same inter-fleet joint development project that resulted in the VF-25 and VF-27. Its home fleet is identified therein as Macross Olympia, who supposedly dropped the design in favor of the VF-25.

There are some allusions to a YF-28 in Macross R, in connection with the data LAI leaked to General Galaxy.

It's not just branches. LAI is an independent company and they made their own derivatives of Shinsei's YF-24 Evolution.

Actually, the VF-25 was a joint venture between Shinsei Industry and LAI's branches in the Macross Frontier fleet.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Actually, the VF-17 Nightmare was built for an incredibly specific role that the existing Main Variable Fighter (the VF-11) wasn't well suited to... stealthily waltzing right up to the enemy and pinpoint attacks on high-value targets. Its abnormally heavy armor, design emphasis on space performance, and almost exclusively short-ranged armament made it a fairly effective space dogfighter... and that's mostly how it was used in Macross 7.

In a way, the VF-171 was kind of the VF-17 having the last laugh in Project Super Nova. The VF-19 and VF-22 were designed for similar operating conditions (though with more versatility), and when those unstable superstars self-destructed the UN Spacy said "We had the VF-17 for this and it worked fine... can't we just make that better at other stuff?".

I don't see how I was really all that far off the mark. Maybe in terms of interpolating it's versatility as a function of design, but the rest seems pretty spot on, save you included the stealth design into your mission consideration. Heavily armed and armored stealth intruder or heavy assault fighter, not mutually exclusive. That it turned out to be a more versatile base design than the VF-11 seems to be true, albeit if by happenstance.

I get what you're saying about the VF-17 being redesigned into the VF-171, and adopted over the supernova valks as a cost cutting measure, and more deployable airframe.

[Bariaburu Faita]

Oops, I stand corrected. So the YF-29 exists in the TV series except just as plans?

That appears to have been torpedoed via Macross R, Macross 30, and Master File. The YF-29 is supposedly part of the reason for the VF-27's final design (specs were leaked to General Galaxy by LAI), the NUNS in 2060 had some YF-29's, and Master File also mentions the YF-29 in connection with the VF-25's development.

The rough sketch of the YF-29 in Kawamori's biography is actually VF-25 line art with the wings and body erased and roughed in with the -29 configuration in pencil... so there may be something to that, though the design's origins seem to go back to the early 2000s and the SW-XA stuff done for VF-Experiment. (The Master File YF-29 is in the same colors as the SW-XAII Schneegans.)

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't see how I was really all that far off the mark. Maybe in terms of interpolating it's versatility as a function of design, but the rest seems pretty spot on, save you included the stealth design into your mission consideration. Heavily armed and armored stealth intruder or heavy assault fighter, not mutually exclusive. That it turned out to be a more versatile base design than the VF-11 seems to be true, albeit if by happenstance.

Again, not a more versatile base design... the VF-17 needed substantial tweaking and significant design improvements to achieve high versatility. It was, however, exceptional in its niche role. It would've been a very poor choice for dealing with large numbers of enemies, bombing missions, and anything else that would require large amounts of ordinance. More for "f*** that guy in particular" than "f*** that guy and all his mates".

Oops, I stand corrected. So the YF-29 exists in the TV series except just as plans?

Based on the available material, the best answer I can offer on that score is that in 2060 it seems to have gone beyond simply being a prototype aircraft to being in a sort of limited, likely unofficial, trial production for the use of SMS and NUNS Special Forces. Potentially a "build-to-order" affair, since no two character models are alike (Alto's, Isamu's, and Ozma's all have unique heads) and the NUNS version (used by Rod Baltemar) is said to be an improved version of the YF-29 and is designated as a separate variant (YF-29B Percival).

[JB0]

Again, not a more versatile base design... the VF-17 needed substantial tweaking and significant design improvements to achieve high versatility. It was, however, exceptional in its niche role. It would've been a very poor choice for dealing with large numbers of enemies, bombing missions, and anything else that would require large amounts of ordinance. More for "f*** that guy in particular" than "f*** that guy and all his mates".

Hence why M7's Diamond Force were launched from catapults on turrets? So they could be sent directly towards "that guy" without having to deal with "all his mates"?

Or was that just for the look-cool factor and I'm overthinking things now?

[Seto Kaiba]

Hence why M7's Diamond Force were launched from catapults on turrets? So they could be sent directly towards "that guy" without having to deal with "all his mates"?

Or was that just for the look-cool factor and I'm overthinking things now?

In Macross 7, it seems to have been used to speed up the arrival of the ship's heaviest hitters so they could bring the pain to the relatively small number of enemy fighters in each skirmish. They never really faced an overwhelming-force attack in Macross 7, just lots of little skirmishes here and there. I can't imagine using a regular catapult would take that much longer, but it sure looks cool and makes the heroes stand out, right?

[JB0]

It definitely does look cool.

Of course, they did have that crazy giant bulldog guy I don't remember the name of, but that was well after everyone had accepted that Sound Force/Fire Bomber had to fight some of these fights. Otherwise, he seems like exactly the thing Diamond Force would've been sent after.

[Mommar]

I find it funny this topic even crept back up. Reading my original post I can't figure out what I was even on about.

[Seto Kaiba]

It definitely does look cool.

Of course, they did have that crazy giant bulldog guy I don't remember the name of, but that was well after everyone had accepted that Sound Force/Fire Bomber had to fight some of these fights. Otherwise, he seems like exactly the thing Diamond Force would've been sent after.

Hrm... that's a good point, both Gigile (the "bulldog guy") and Gavil (the one obsessed with "beauty of") really seem to repeatedly take it on the chin from Diamond Force, so I guess that IS an example of them operating as designed.

[Bariaburu Faita]

So far it seems like that is all material published after the second movie. I`m curious if the VF-29 was always part of Producer Kawamori`s master plan for the TV series, but didn`t have the budget to show it. Simmilar to the multiple Quarters showing up in the Movie but not TV series.

Based on the available material, the best answer I can offer on that score is that in 2060 it seems to have gone beyond simply being a prototype aircraft to being in a sort of limited, likely unofficial, trial production for the use of SMS and NUNS Special Forces. Potentially a "build-to-order" affair, since no two character models are alike (Alto's, Isamu's, and Ozma's all have unique heads) and the NUNS version (used by Rod Baltemar) is said to be an improved version of the YF-29 and is designated as a separate variant (YF-29B Percival).

[Seto Kaiba]

So far it seems like that is all material published after the second movie. I`m curious if the VF-29 was always part of Producer Kawamori`s master plan for the TV series, but didn`t have the budget to show it. Simmilar to the multiple Quarters showing up in the Movie but not TV series.

My suspicion, based on the early YF-29 concept art in Shoji Kawamori: The Viewpoint of the Visionary Creator, would be that it was probably not part of plans for the Macross Frontier television series. It's clearly drawn on top of a completed, polished VF-25 design printed off a computer... with the new wings, engines, and tail design roughed in in pencil.

(Similarly, with the Macross Quarter, I suspect the others were an idea they had while they were brainstorming the 2nd movie. When they launch the Quarter for the first time in the TV series, they make it sound like the ship was still experimental... and the writeup in Macross Chronicle makes it sound like the ship, like the VF-25's it carries, are merely on loan to SMS for field testing.

[Nekko Basara]

If the in-canon explanation for the YF-29 is that it is an attempt to incorporate the capabilities of the Tornado pack into the core airframe of the VF-25, I think it's parsimonious to assume that Kawamori's own design process followed the same logic (i.e. he didn't retroactively design the Tornado pack that appears in movie 1 as a precursor to the YF-29 that would appear in movie 2). That would mean that the YF-29 was designed last in the real world - after the VF-25 was finalized, as shown by the concept sketch - which makes it less likely that the YF-29 was already on the table for the original series. That does make its alleged in-canon connection to the VF-27 problematic, though.

[Seto Kaiba]

2). That would mean that the YF-29 was designed last in the real world - after the VF-25 was finalized, as shown by the concept sketch - which makes it less likely that the YF-29 was already on the table for the original series. That does make its alleged in-canon connection to the VF-27 problematic, though.

How so? If we're talking about production/release dates, then we're golden because the references to the YF-29's data supposedly being used in development of the VF-27 come from works published months after Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa's theatrical release.

[Nekko Basara]

How so? If we're talking about production/release dates, then we're golden because the references to the YF-29's data supposedly being used in development of the VF-27 come from works published months after Macross Frontier: Sayonara no Tsubasa's theatrical release.

Well, the VF-27 appears in both the TV series and the movies, so we cannot reconcile the info about YF-29 data contributing to its development with the TV series where the YF-29 never existed, or to real life, where the production timeline suggests the VF-27 was designed first.

I'm just saying it has to be a retcon applicable only to the movie universe, and not indicating anything about an intention to include the YF-29 in the show.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, the VF-27 appears in both the TV series and the movies, so we cannot reconcile the info about YF-29 data contributing to its development with the TV series where the YF-29 never existed, or to real life, where the production timeline suggests the VF-27 was designed first.

As with DYRL?, just because something first appears in the movie version of a story doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the broad strokes continuity that connects the various Macross stories to each other. You're confusing "doesn't appear" with "doesn't exist"... and also production history with in-universe chronology. This isn't exactly the first time they've added to an earlier Macross show's fighter's development history in a later Macross title. With titles chronologically on both sides of the Macross Frontier story arc clearly and explicitly indicating the YF-29 is in fact a thing (and, indeed, we wouldn't have the VF-31 if it wasn't) I see no reason to doubt its existence in the ongoing Macross universe.

In all likelihood, the YF-29's relationship to the Macross Frontier TV series is no different than that of many DYRL? designs to the SDF Macross TV series... they exist, but many of them are representative of developments that occurred later or elsewhere. It's perfectly likely that the YF-29 existed on paper (in-universe) in the events of the Macross Frontier series and was simply not complete in time for the war's conclusion.

I'm just saying it has to be a retcon applicable only to the movie universe, and not indicating anything about an intention to include the YF-29 in the show.

... so, besides the fact that Kawamori refuted the idea of the series and movies being separate universes, doesn't Macross the Ride being a prequel to the whole Macross Frontier arc kind of punch a gaping hole in your argument?

[Bariaburu Faita]

When did he refute that?

... so, besides the fact that Kawamori refuted the idea of the series and movies being separate universes, doesn't Macross the Ride being a prequel to the whole Macross Frontier arc kind of punch a gaping hole in your argument?

[Seto Kaiba]

When did he refute that?

He's been pushing that one for ages with respect to the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Do You Remember Love?, citing that neither was a strictly accurate depiction of the First Space War's events and the truth was somewhere inbetween.

Also, weren't you the one who reported on his 30th Anniversary event declaration that all Macross titles were equally valid?

[Bariaburu Faita]

What Producer Kawamori said, at the first Macross Museum at Takarazuka. Was that everything was a "parallel world" To answer the question that I posed about how someone from 2060 could know about events from 2092.

This does not seem to refute that the series and movies are separate universes, infact it implies each and every tv show, movie, event, manga, take place in separate parallel universes.

It is a very vauge statement though. and open to interpetation.

I agree that it would imply that all Macross titles are equally valid, or "cannon" as we westerners would say. This unfortunately makes it extremely difficult to piece together what the overall vision of what Macross is supposed to be. Even worse for us trying to figure out which numerical specifications are most accurate.

I will do my best to get a clear clarification from him the next time I see him. What do you think the best single question to ask him would be, to clarify that multitude of questions we have?

He's been pushing that one for ages with respect to the original Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Do You Remember Love?, citing that neither was a strictly accurate depiction of the First Space War's events and the truth was somewhere inbetween.

Also, weren't you the one who reported on his 30th Anniversary event declaration that all Macross titles were equally valid?

[Nekko Basara]

I didn't mean to spark another conflagration over the fluid nature of Macross canon. I love the way new stories appear in the spaces around and between the old ones, and where they overlap it's just like two tellings of the same tale.

What specifically tripped me up here was a mistake on my part: I thought that the "anti-Vajra" YF-29 was developed in response to the Frontier fleet's Vajra encounters. This gave it an impossibly rapid development time, but I hand-waved this away with the "rule of cool" and the need to get new valks into the movies.

On that flawed premise, there was just no way the YF-29 could have contributed to the VF-27 (even in movie, now that I think about it), and that's why I thought there was a problem. Understanding that YF-29 development was triggered by the Galia 4 incident, and was a sister program to the VF-25 rather than a derivative of it, fixes everything for me regarding the VF-27.

As far as "canon" goes, the TV series can just be seen as a version of the Frontier story where the fleet was not sent the YF-29, and the movie tells a version where it was.