Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircraft

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, leave it to the Russians, they can always claim they did it first, but we get to claim we did it right. Though you have to admit, that the thought of the pilot having some sort of helmet display interaction with the machine was always kind of implied. Pilots have been wanting that for a very long time, but it was always just a pipe dream until the MiG-29 did it, then until the JHMCS showed up on F-16 and F-15 testbeds (I think some US F-15's and 16's have been retrofitted for this, but that might not be accurate). I do know it's been fully implemented on the F-22 and F-35 (for what that's worth).

[mickyg]

For F-22? I'm not so sure about that.

It's on the F-16, F-15, F/A-18 Hornet, F/A-18E and F Super Hornet. That much I'm sure of. There was some controversy on the Raptor though, because it didn't have a helmet mounted cueing system and should have, being it's so advanced. Maybe they've resolved that one finally? I know it's finally done an AIM-9X test and that's the missile of choice for JHMCS as far as I'm aware.

Here's a recent article that mentions the F-22 milestone: http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-its-sad-that-the-f-22-just-fired-its-first-guided-a-1704889474

[Valkyrie Driver]

Maybe I'm mistaken on the F-22. In my little world the thing may as well have been a unicorn, like a CWO5. People say they exist, but no one has ever really seen one...

[mickyg]

Ha! Had to look up CWO5 as I had NO idea! Nice analogy.

[grigolosi]

Yeah the 22 doesn't have it and never will.That is due to its radar package and highly effective stealth ability. All the active duty USAF F- 16 's have been moded with JHMC's. This was done during the CCIP mod back a few yrs ago.

[Sildani]

I think I actually saw one CW05,in Herzogenaurauch Germany. Small white guy, thought he was a 1LT until I saw the open boxes on his bars. He just walked past me.

And a rainbow followed him.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I saw one CWO5 while I was at Ft Campbell, and he was a really cool guy, helicopter pilot. Army CWO5's have a solid stripe through their bar. I once saw an Air Force Captain, become flabberghasted, when he saw the rank for the first time. He walked away after returning the salute, screaming something about heresy and army sorcery and may have even made mention of skulduggery...

As for seeing rainbows, 4 days without sleep did that, plus an actual unicorn being ridden by a leprechaun, who may have been screaming about lucky charms and skulduggery... Kids, I'm here to tell you, never stay awake for 4 days, especially not by consuming nothing but beef jerky, monster energy, and dipping instant coffee...

Anyway how about them technical references!

[grigolosi]

I think I actually saw one CW05,in Herzogenaurauch Germany. Small white guy, thought he was a 1LT until I saw the open boxes on his bars. He just walked past me.

And a rainbow followed him..

........and then a Unicorn with a leprechaun on its back ran past pulling bigfoot in a wagon!.......LOL

[Valkyrie Driver]

........and then a Unicorn with a leprechaun on its back ran past pulling bigfoot in a wagon!.......LOL

You saw it too! I'm not [that] crazy!

[grigolosi]

There is one thing that has bugged me the past few days since I thought about it. The VF series are supposed to use fly by wire systems and for all intents a purposes they use side stick controllers like the F-16, F-22 and F-35. I noticed that when they show the pilots flying them in the series that when they move the stick the whole stick moves. Knowing what I know about these type of control systems if the stick were to actuate that far while in fighter mode the pilot would over control and possibly crash it. The current sidestick controllers have very little movement in them for this reason. It is just enough movement to allow the pilot to know which direction he is pushing it. General Dynamics originally had no movement at all in the sidestick before the prototype F-16 flew, they found the pilots had difficulty because there was no feed back from the stick to aid their SA, so a small amount of movement was allowed in the stick. Now I could see some form of locking system to restrict the controller of a VF while in fighter mode and then it would unlock to allow greater movement in both GERWALK and Battroid. But then you would run into the issue of over control in GERWALK since it is a hybrid mode that can operated like an aircraft. Any thoughts?

[Valkyrie Driver]

There is one thing that has bugged me the past few days since I thought about it. The VF series are supposed to use fly by wire systems and for all intents a purposes they use side stick controllers like the F-16, F-22 and F-35. I noticed that when they show the pilots flying them in the series that when they move the stick the whole stick moves. Knowing what I know about these type of control systems if the stick were to actuate that far while in fighter mode the pilot would over control and possibly crash it. The current sidestick controllers have very little movement in them for this reason. It is just enough movement to allow the pilot to know which direction he is pushing it. General Dynamics originally had no movement at all in the sidestick before the prototype F-16 flew, they found the pilots had difficulty because there was no feed back from the stick to aid their SA, so a small amount of movement was allowed in the stick. Now I could see some form of locking system to restrict the controller of a VF while in fighter mode and then it would unlock to allow greater movement in both GERWALK and Battroid. But then you would run into the issue of over control in GERWALK since it is a hybrid mode that can operated like an aircraft. Any thoughts?

I think it's probably supposed to be the way you describe it, unless there is a great deal of force feedback that they're trying to overcome. I don't believe the animators were familiar enough with the modern sidestick controls to animate them properly, seeing as that sort of information is usually carefully guarded.

[JB0]

Also, sometimes realism gives way to looks-right-ism, and stick play is one of those things that, even if I knew better, I'd illustrate incorrectly for aesthetics.

It's similar to how rocket launches in every movie ever have engine ignition at 0 on the countdown. 0 is supposed to be liftoff, not engine start, but it looks so much better if the engines fire at 0 that even when going for accuracy, they'll fudge that part.

[Mr March]

Yeah, the artists definitely can't evolve too far beyond the established Macross stick/control setup lest they lose those dramatic pickup shots and transitions that are so integral to making the control of the valkyries so dynamic and entertaining as a visual display for the audience. Personally, I'd also be careful not to harshly criticize Macross too much for the cockpit control. IMO, Macross is by far one of science fiction IP's that puts the most effort and thought into the control scheme and cockpit design of the fighter craft of it's universe. One look at the cockpits shown in stuff like the Battlestar Galactica (re-imagined) series or the Star Wars films shows an embarrassingly backward control design that is laughable for what are supposed to be futuristic space fighter craft.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Mr March

[grigolosi]

One thing to remember about the re-imagined BSG (which I am a fan of) is that the cockpit of the Viper MkII represents a design meant to fight an enemy who had the capability to hack in to more advance computer systems. So its systems were designed to minimize use of computers whenever possible, if you remember the pilot episode/movie the MK VII Vipers were hacked and shutdown by the Cylons before they could fire a shot. Now SW I do agree with you about, I have always thought the cockpits for the starfighters and even the Millennium Falcon were definitely backwards looking.

I am not really harshly criticizing Macross for that. This was something that I noticed and I was wondering if anyone else had noticed it. I know they show the stick movement for drama and to also demonstrate that the pilot is commanding the VF's movements.

One of the things I loved in Macross especially DYRL was the sound of the VF engines starting and operating. They used the sound of a F-15 JFS starting up its engine. I wish they had used that more often in the other series of Macross. That was one of the most realistic sound affects I have heard in Sci Fi in my book, next to the sound of the gunpods used by the VF's in DYRL.

Edited August 26, 2015 by grigolosi

[Mr March]

I wasn't implying that any one person was unduly criticizing Macross, just saying we should be wary of doing so when Macross is actually one of the better IPs in that creative realm. But I understand what you mean.

IMO, "dated/retro" does not explain HMI/HOTAS efficiency/inefficiency in BSG. Maybe a mitigating factor to help suspend disbelief, but for me it was way too far a stretch. I'm well aware of the in-universe nature of the Galactica's un-networked computer technology, but that doesn't sufficiently explain the cockpit HMI. And a networked computer would not be needed for the space fighter craft anyway. The reason the newer Vipers were vulnerable was not their computer system, it was the software "backdoor" the Cylons installed via Number Six's industrial espionage for the past several years. Even by analog standards, those Viper cockpits were archaic, especially for a "future" space superiority fighter. Best thing I can think of is the older directors/produces of the show wanted a visual call back to that era of both the original BSG series and real world fighters of the 1970s. Understandable, but that makes it no less absurd.

Many of the Macross cockpits actually feel a little too conventional despite all the fancy screens and glowing bits, but the UN Spayc has the advantage of being "near-future" instead of far-future and are clearly part of a fictional universe in which the humans are learning-along-the-way with respect to understanding OverTechnology. So it figures that you'll see a lot of 20th-21st century human understanding haphazardly applied to far-future technology from an alien race

I think the sound design is something that hasn't really been emphasized enough in the newer productions like Macross Zero and Macross Frontier. That signature "buzz saw" sound of the Gun Pods from the original Macross is almost as precious to me as the lightsaber from Star Wars. But then again, one doesn't have to concentrate on sound as much in newer anime because so much more effort can be place into the visuals because of the advances in technology. Still, i miss the imagination the sound of the old Macross show instilled within me.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think if they'd put a bit more into the sound design, it would really help out the visuals, so that it feels like a future fighter jet.

Many of the Macross cockpits actually feel a little too conventional despite all the fancy screens and glowing bits, but the UN Spayc has the advantage of being "near-future" instead of far-future and are clearly part of a fictional universe in which the humans are learning-along-the-way with respect to understanding OverTechnology. So it figures that you'll see a lot of 20th-21st century human understanding haphazardly applied to far-future technology from an alien race

I liken it to a phrase that Jordi Le Forge said to Scotty in that one TNG episode, "Just because it's old, doesn't mean you throw it away..."

[charger69]

I've waited today for this!!

RELEASE THE DRAKEN!!!

Sv-262 Draken III

Saab 35 Draken

[charger69]

Macross Froniter's VF-25 and Macross Delta's VF-31' dorsal ornaments are inspired from Polish MiG-29A!

[Mr March]

Hahahah, looks like a big target painted on the hull

[Valkyrie Driver]

It's probably already been mentioned but I can't find it, the SV-262's name is a reference to the Me-262 Schwalbe.

[grigolosi]

That was my general interpretation also Valkyrie. Especially since the team that flies them seem to be aligned with a Eurpoean influenced Kingdom.

[Nazareno2012]

The YF/VF-19 seems to be inspired by one of Grumman's proposals for the Advanced Tactical Fighter program:

[spanner]

The YF/VF-19 seems to be inspired by one of Grumman's proposals for the Advanced Tactical Fighter program:

hmmm.. that's an interesting looking thing isn't it.

[Nazareno2012]

hmmm.. that's an interesting looking thing isn't it.

More Grumman ATF proposals here (including a design that looks like a single-tailed VF-11): http://yf-23.net/Grumman.html

Another one:

VF-5000 Star Mirage:

Rockwell ATF proposal (Concept 6):

[spanner]

checked out that website and there is a lot of interesting stuff!

[d3v]

I've waited today for this!!

RELEASE THE DRAKEN!!!

Sv-262 Draken III

When I look at those intakes, I can't help but think of the Thud (F-105 Thunderchief).

That said, I can't help but wonder if Kawamori thought of that due to how many upcoming 5th gen fighters are running Diverterless Supersonic Intakes.

F-35

Chengdu J-20

Shenyang J-31

[Sildani]

Yes to all. Kawamori, I'd say, keeps an eye on current aircraft technology and more than likely has an extensive library of airplane books. Like most of us. 😉

[Mr March]

Yeah, I totally see that. Kawamori has often taken pieces and design motifs from all kinds of craft (even non-aircraft) and made them part of a valkyrie design. Those intakes are a dead ringer for sure.

[grigolosi]

The man definitely keeps up with the newest published advances in aviation technology. The wrap around cockpit was inspired by the JHMCS systems first used in the 70's and by the mainstream implementation of it in the 90's and early 2000's. I see alot of YF-23 inspiration in his work on the VF-22. In regards to the Intakes the F-105 carried one of the first Diverterless style intakes. Combined with the area rule affect on its fuselage it proved very capable of regulating airflow into the intake. The only thing missing physically is the bulged shock diverter on the fuselage side of the intake. It worked by preventing angling the intake to slow down the airflow to subsonic speeds instead of a shock cone or bulge.

[Nazareno2012]

The micro missiles seen in Macross appear to be inspired by the real-life AGM-124 Wasp, which was also supposed to be fired against targets in swarms and is smaller than contemporary missiles like the AGM-65:

[Devil 505]

The micro missiles seen in Macross appear to be inspired by the real-life AGM-124 Wasp, which was also supposed to be fired against targets in swarms and is smaller than contemporary missiles like the AGM-65:

Then there are modern "guided rocket" programs like APKWS...

...and the LCITS, among others.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Devil 505

[Nazareno2012]

Upon closer inspection, Grumman's Concept 10 ATF proposal that I previously wrote looks like a single-tailed VF-11 actually looks more like the YF-10 variable fighter from Astro Plan (a Chinese show that ripped off Macross Frontier):

[charger69]

Japan unveils first stealth fighter jet: X-2

Guess what's in common with YF-21!!

Source:

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-unveils-first-stealth-fighter-jet-004353609.html#

Edited January 28, 2016 by charger69

[Nazareno2012]

Japan unveils first stealth fighter jet: X-2

Guess what's in common with YF-21!!

Source:

http://news.yahoo.com/japan-unveils-first-stealth-fighter-jet-004353609.html#

Which in turn, had its thrust vectoring nozzles based on the X-31 experimental aircraft:

[charger69]

I've covered that X-31 resemblance on the first page