Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircraft

[Valkyrie Driver]

Here's something interesting, looks kinda like the VF-4. I don't think that this is a case of real world influence, but it is strangely familiar...

[Sildani]

The term "close-coupled" was made for that... thing. What, is all its gas inside the drop tank?

[anime52k8]

The term "close-coupled" was made for that... thing. What, is all its gas inside the drop tank?

PZL-230_Skorpion

Edited April 2, 2015 by anime52k8

[Nekko Basara]

Wow, I had no idea. From the picture, I thought I was looking at a high-end kit plane for rich Top Gun dreamers.

Damned thing looks like it would make the He162 seem long-legged and well-equipped. Hard to believe they were serious.

[Kelsain]

I've seen that SeaDart in Plant City!

(null)

[Valkyrie Driver]

That is an awesome idea, that would make an excellent kit plane. I now want to do that, and design a small scale VF-4 inspired kit plane for the rich and famous, patent it, and make money hand over fist...

[GuardianGrey]

Then just do as Lockheed-Martin did, Valkyrie Driver. go and buy the plans from them.

Doing that, Lockheed-Martin got the cancelled Yak-141 & Yak-43 data to help with the YF-35 project.

Since it was a canceled project from almost two decades ago, it should be 'cheap.'

------------------------------

Well, on that, Nekko Basara, comparing the PZL-230 verses the He 162, you have almost 40 years of technology advancements between.

That is the aeronautical company's mock-up, the Polish Air Force wanted this as the redesign, which pushed out of the budget into cancelation.

Considering only five were built & one crashed (in front of the brass & press), Kelsain. If you seen one, then you were lucky.

Reading the Wikipedia article on the YF-2Y (also known as the YF-7A under the 1962 United States Tri-Service aircraft designation system), they thought of attempting to build a submarine aircraft carrier for three of them, though did not get past the 'writing on a napkin' stage due to multiple issues.

With said, though not VF, support technologies to have items like the Auerstadt Submarine Aircraft Carrier did not stop with the Imperial 400 class from the Japanese Navy.

Um, Mr.March & Seto Kaiba, I do not want to sound like a bother, though the Master List of Macross Mecha of the Macross Mecha Manual is lacking all of the Anti-United Nations mecha that you have on the site.

[Mr March]

The Auerstadt Submarine Aircraft Carrier is listed on the Master List of Macross Mecha (under enemy ships) as are all the SV-51 variable fighters (under valkyries, near the top). I've been previously informed the Octos is missing from the list, but that has since been corrected and will appear in the next update (along with a whole lot more).

A note about the Master List: I built the page due to many visitor requests, since folks expressed difficulty remembering in which Macross production each mecha appeared. Initially, the list was managable when it was relatively small, but once the Macross 7 and Macross Frontier mecha libraries were added, the list became quite a burden. While I try to update/maintain the list as best I can, please understand it's not a priority. I would always recommend visiting the individual sections of the site for the most accurate listing of vehicles, mecha and ships.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I have a book called "The World's Worst Aircraft" which has he Sea Dart in it. Jet powered sea planes don't work very well...

[Mommar]

A note about the Master List: I built the page due to many visitor requests, since folks expressed difficulty remembering in which Macross production each mecha appeared.

Seriously??? It's not that hard to remember. Maybe the video game versions, but nothing from the Anime proper is hard to sort out... and I don't even like watching the Anime's really.

[Phyrox]

I have a book called "The World's Worst Aircraft" which has he Sea Dart in it. Jet powered sea planes don't work very well...

Martin P6M and Beriev A-40 beg to differ.

[GuardianGrey]

I will have to agree with Phyrox on this, Valkyrie Driver. & reason I brought up the Sea Dart was that the ability to land a VF on water(worlds) was the idea for the VF-5.

Both the Convair YF-2Y & the Saunders-Roe SR.A/1 did crash before their military Brass & press, they were sound designs;

• The YF-7A crash was due to bulkhead's fatigue from going supersonic then landing 'hot' (faster than it should) on the water (which caused the bulkhead to fail)
• The crash of the SR.A/1 was due to floating debris that it hit in the river it was landing. an issues that propeller seaplanes also have.

The Martin P6M SeaMaster was a good design, though suffered the budget axe under political/military logic of the time, much like the XB-70 did.
Though, unlike the XB-70, all twelve P6M craft were scrapped, with only one of the tail sections in a museum..

The Beriev A-40 Albatros (also Be-42, NATO reporting name Mermaid) was another Soviet Union design that the Russian Naval Aviation has restarted.
It has, like the short life of the P6M, no reported incidents of mechanical problems/crashes since its first flight in 1986.

Their were rumors that during the wildfires of 2012 & 2013 in the western United States, that Russia was willing to send over a couple Be-200 (based of the A-40) to assist in the fire-fighting efforts & the federal government of the US denied/refused the aid offer.

------------------------------

Ah, I see now, Mr. March, and apologize.

[Mr March]

GuardianGrey

No apology needed. I just wanted to let everyone know the Master List is not a prioritized feature, so visitors should know where to look instead. Since folks are still using the Master List, I will make an attempt to update it for the next website update. No promises, but I'll try.

Seriously??? It's not that hard to remember. Maybe the video game versions, but nothing from the Anime proper is hard to sort out... and I don't even like watching the Anime's really.

Yes, dozens of visitors emailed me asking for a Master List page. Also, many of the forum members here on MW requested it as well.

It wasn't a bad idea at first. I didn't really mind at the time. For me, it was never useful. But if I dismiss my own bias and "unhealthy" familiarity with Macross Mecha ( ), I can see the value of the Master List for the average fan. I think at the very least we can admit the Valkyries all listed in numbered order is a rather convenient reference.

I just find the Master List has become somewhat of a pain in the ass now that it's so big. I think there are now something like 300+ profiles on the M3. Editing the Master List to ensure each profile is included, that they are all updated/corrected with proper names, that the directories/html are accruate when name changes occur...it's just extra administrative work. Time I'd rather spend building content.

[Kelsain]

Considering only five were built & one crashed (in front of the brass & press), Kelsain. If you seen one, then you were lucky.

Yep, that looks like the one. It was pretty cool. Took a whole bunch of photos of it, if anybody would like to see them!

I thought the skis would work pretty well for the arms of the VF-5.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Kelsain

[GuardianGrey]

I do not mean to laugh, Kelsain, though I think you might be wrong on something.

I can not find any information that the VF-5 had any alternate mode, and was just a fighter.

To be factual, in V-Max; Vol.2 No.6, pg.22-3 "The Evolution of the Variable Fighter" by Benjamin L Wright (1995), the entry for about read:

VF-5000 (and VF-5)

Designed by Shinsei Industries in 2009 as a non-transformable, anti-Bodolza atmospheric fighter. Equipped with an on-board radar suppression system and advanced avionics, a space combat variant (the VF-5) partially replaced the VF-4 in 2020.

In 1997, with the release of Macross Dynamite 7; the VF-5000G Star Mirage was a three-mode variable fighter, though no update on the VF-5.

That is like the rewrite of the VF-4, which originally was also a non-transformable fighter, in which its appearance (as the VF-4G) in Macross M3 (Video Game 2001) was the first time anyone seen any transformation there of. To quote from the V-Max article's there on:

VF-4 "Lightning III"

This non-variable fighter replaced the VF-1 for space combat in 2012. it weighed 13.95 tons, with 28 tons of engine power. Armed with dual beam guns and 12 air-to air missiles. No variants except for the early VF-X-4, which had 35% parts commonality with the VF-1. A variable geometry version of the VF-4 Lightning III, the VF-14, was captured by the Varauta in Macross 7. The FZ-109A and the FZ-109F "Elgerzorene" are "alienized" VF-14 versions, converted much like their micronized Zentaedi pilots.

--------------- Semi-Back to Topic ---------------

Though back to a line in the VF-5000 (and VF-5) entry, "Equipped with on-board radar-suppression system..." Could that be a note to an early version of the YF-19 & YF-21 Active Stealth systems?

I have seen actual patents (I confirmed they were real, considering fanatic UFOlogists usually sight them) for energy-field generation systems that are suppose to help ionize the air to help it flow over the wing & the distortion of radar as a potential side effect. If the distortion does happen, then it and ECM could function like Active Stealth.

Which brings me to odd logic Macross Continuum questions;

The VF-0 Phoenix had both SWAG armor & Active Stealth, & it is noted that the SWAG was to be on all VFs, does that mean that all VF (continuing with the VF-1) had an Active Stealth Systems?

Was the Active Stealth a byproduct of the SWAG armor being de-Energized?
(Remembering that the VF-0 & other first generation VFs SWAG armor was not active in fighter-mode due to power limitations of their turbines)

If all the VFs already had Active Stealth, why was it such a big deal for the Super Nova candidates to have it?

Do Destriods have SWAG armor that is active all the time?

Edited April 8, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Valkyrie Driver]

Well, I stand corrected. I have to admit that the P6M had slipped my mind. I suppose I should have said that jet powered seaplanes aren't as successful, not that they don't work very well, because that its obviously false. Then again, Seaplanes in general are rare these days, and now are mostly seen in use as water bombers or other civilian aircraft. Their military use has been eclipsed by carrier-borne aircraft that greatly simplify the logistics chain.

[Nekko Basara]

Jet-powered seaplanes are largely a path not taken. It's tough to evaluate their merits and potential because, as already said, world militaries chose other approaches like carrier-based aircraft or land-based aircraft to fill similar needs. That was probably based on sound reasoning (I'm thinking particularly of the high maintenance needs of seaplane and the greater difficulty of performing maintenance and resupply), but it makes for some interesting "what ifs."

Personally, I've always been impressed that (to my knowledge) there have only been two jet-powered seaplane fighters attempted, both of them proved flight-worthy and flew quite well from what I've read, and one of them even managed to go trans-sonic. There aren't many novel classes of aircraft that can claim such success in their earliest examples.

EDIT: I fixed to say seaplane FIGHTERS.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Nekko Basara

[Kelsain]

I do not mean to laugh, Kelsain, though I think you might be wrong on something.

I can not find any information that the VF-5 had any alternate mode, and was just a fighter.

To be factual, in V-Max; Vol.2 No.6, pg.22-3 "The Evolution of the Variable Fighter" by Benjamin L Wright (1995), the entry for about read:

VF-5000 (and VF-5)

Designed by Shinsei Industries in 2009 as a non-transformable, anti-Bodolza atmospheric fighter. Equipped with an on-board radar suppression system and advanced avionics, a space combat variant (the VF-5) partially replaced the VF-4 in 2020.

In 1997, with the release of Macross Dynamite 7; the VF-5000G Star Mirage was a three-mode variable fighter, though no update on the VF-5.

That is like the rewrite of the VF-4, which originally was also a non-transformable fighter, in which its appearance (as the VF-4G) in Macross M3 (Video Game 2001) was the first time anyone seen any transformation there of. To quote from the V-Max article's there on:

VF-4 "Lightning III"

This non-variable fighter replaced the VF-1 for space combat in 2012. it weighed 13.95 tons, with 28 tons of engine power. Armed with dual beam guns and 12 air-to air missiles. No variants except for the early VF-X-4, which had 35% parts commonality with the VF-1. A variable geometry version of the VF-4 Lightning III, the VF-14, was captured by the Varauta in Macross 7. The FZ-109A and the FZ-109F "Elgerzorene" are "alienized" VF-14 versions, converted much like their micronized Zentaedi pilots.

My understanding of the VF-5 comes from random references here on MacrossWorld, as well as a few fan arts that I've seen here and on DeviantArt. It's essentially the legend that a VF-5 had been officially mentioned somewhere, and that it was apparently capable of a water landing. Of course, no official design or even Kawamori doodles seem to exist - or at least I've never seen them.

Is this V-max article the original source of this? If so, it's the first actual reference I've heard of!

Seems like since this idea came about, the SeaDart has become a design inspiration to some artists as they imagined what this would look like. Having seen a few of these drawings prior to visiting Sun 'n Fun (sorry, apparently located in Lakeland, FL), I could really see the SeaDart as a variable fighter as I walked around and under it. Maybe I'll see if I can find the photos tonight and post them in Anime/Scifi.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Kelsain

[Seto Kaiba]

To be factual, in V-Max; Vol.2 No.6, pg.22-3 "The Evolution of the Variable Fighter" by Benjamin L Wright (1995), the entry for about read:

VF-5000 (and VF-5)

Designed by Shinsei Industries in 2009 as a non-transformable, anti-Bodolza atmospheric fighter. Equipped with an on-board radar suppression system and advanced avionics, a space combat variant (the VF-5) partially replaced the VF-4 in 2020.

Just gonna throw this out there, but that article in V-Max is riddled with inaccuracies to the extent of being pretty much useless, so citing it as evidence of anything would be a bad idea.

The VF-5 was... well... a VF. That the author immediately says it's non-transformable should be a clue as to how (un)reliable the article as a whole is.

That is like the rewrite of the VF-4, which originally was also a non-transformable fighter, in which its appearance (as the VF-4G) in Macross M3 (Video Game 2001) was the first time anyone seen any transformation there of.

As with the VF-5 mentioned above, the VF-4 was always a transformable fighter... I mean, it's right there in the designation. It's also marked as transformable on the VF-X-4 line art.

I have seen actual patents (I confirmed they were real, considering fanatic UFOlogists usually sight them) for energy-field generation systems that are suppose to help ionize the air to help it flow over the wing & the distortion of radar as a potential side effect. If the distortion does happen, then it and ECM could function like Active Stealth.

The stealth technology in Macross is passive stealth (via radar or fold wave-absorbent materials and airframe shaping) or active stealth (via active cancellation).

Which brings me to odd logic Macross Continuum questions;

The VF-0 Phoenix had both SWAG armor & Active Stealth, & it is noted that the SWAG was to be on all VFs, does that mean that all VF (continuing with the VF-1) had an Active Stealth Systems?

While the presence of one does not imply the presence of the other, the answer to your question is still "Yes".

Was the Active Stealth a byproduct of the SWAG armor being de-Energized?

(Remembering that the VF-0 & other first generation VFs SWAG armor was not active in fighter-mode due to power limitations of their turbines)

No. The active stealth systems used in Macross are described as being of the "active cancellation" type, which uses its own small radar transmitters to neutralize their radar return through destructive interference.

If all the VFs already had Active Stealth, why was it such a big deal for the Super Nova candidates to have it?

A new generation of active stealth technology, combined with low-observable passive stealth design, made the Project Super Nova fighters effectively invisible to previous-generation VF radar systems even at point-blank range... as seen in Macross Plus.

Do Destriods have SWAG armor that is active all the time?

I vaguely recall seeing a few references to Destroids having energy conversion armor technology, yes...

EDIT: Yes, according to Macross Chronicle, destroids with thermonuclear reaction power systems can (and do!) employ energy conversion armor to bolster their defenses. It doesn't make up nearly as much of the total defensive ability on a destroid as it does on a VF though, as the less potent reactors used in destroids can't support it (and the less strict weight tolerances and mobility requirements mean that they're able to more than make up the difference with thicker armor plating instead).

Edited April 9, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[GuardianGrey]

Okay, Seto Kaiba, though pardon me as I laugh... at me making a total @$$ of myself... or making you eat crow...

Just a thought, the F-117 (to my knowledge) never had any combat capabilities to facilitate an offensive/defensive role against other aerial units, yet it was still designated as a Fighter.

First off, the V-Max article is two decades old...

... I know that the VF-5000 had debuted (by, I believe, your information at Macross Mecha Manual) in This is Animation Special Macross Plus on pg. 68 in 1995.

So both were at about the same time; so does that publication show all three modes of the VF-5000 craft? &/Or describe the battriod/GERWALK statistics?

If it only describes the fighter-mode only, at that time, then the assumption of the VF-5000 is a non-variable fighter has founding in the lack of evidence to the contrary.

I have not seen the Flashback 2012 which was released in 1987 (5 year anniversary)...

... Did the VF-4 transform any in the animation? Did line-art from the production at that time have any additional Modes? Was there any detailed descriptions of any other modes?

If there was a lack of evidence up until the Macross M3 game release (2001), then it would seem that it too would been originally described as a non-transformable fighter.

I still would have called the VF-5000 (and VF-5) a VF based (loosely) on it having VF-technologies & a VG wing structure (& the VF-5 possible due to doubling as a hydrofoil craft).

The fact the VF-4, VF-5 & VF-5000 were all manned Fighters that could operate in Variable environments could also 'qualify' as VF units, though who know at that time (1995).

I do not think Koji Goto* at that time would have overlooked such details in giving base information out to the wirters, if they existed at all prior to the time of publication.

------------------------------

On my active stealth in real life. the wing would have been actively transmitting EM field to ionize the air around the craft to help reduce drag. The ionized air then would disrupt the radar wave trying to reflect off the craft (by distorting them in & out of the field). I though have not heard of said system actively used, though there are registered patents for.

(* = Japanese translator for R Talsorian Games, worked with other writers for V-Max, the DBZ & BGC projects and the GUNDAM license)

[Mr March]

WIth all due appreciation to Seto for hosting the Macross Mecha Manual for the last 4 years, the website is mine (as stated in the FAQ). It's a one-man all-Mr March show for which I am the sole person managing the site and building all it's content. Any criticisms, corrections or questions are directed to me.
I do indeed believe the VF-5000's debut (fighter mode) was in the This is Animation Special Macross Plus, but if it's not, that would be my fault

A note about non-transformable VFs...

Unless I'm mistaken, I think there was only ever one non-transformable VF, and that was the VF-X, which was a fighter-only prototype for what was planned to be - and of course DID become - the fully variable VF-1 fighter. It's also kind of an oxymoron for a VF (VARIABLE FIGHTER) to be non-variable, hehehehe

I believe the only reason a VF would be non-variable is for real life production reasons; meaning, Big West has not yet paid Kawamori to sit down to draw the other modes. The VF-4 Lightning III was always a variable fighter and was always described as such in the offical literature. But it is true the Battroid and Gerwalk modes were not drawn until some years later (or simply not released?). So perhaps some overzealous writers decided they were non-variable because no one had produced any artwork for it.

Interesting trivia, I think there was a VF-4 Battroid mode drawn for a video game before the actual Battroid drawn art was released. Can't seem to find a picture online, but it's hanging around somewhere.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Mr March

[Seto Kaiba]

WIth all due appreciation to Seto for hosting the Macross Mecha Manual for the last 4 years, the website is mine (as stated in the FAQ). It's a one-man all-Mr March show for which I am the sole person managing the site and all it's content. Any criticisms, corrections or questions are directed to me.

As the man says, GuardianGrey, M3 is Mr March's project. He does all the front-end stuff like the beautiful art, the elegant and finely crafted stats pages, and the layouts. I help out here and there doing the back-end administrative stuff that keeps the server running, chase new publications, and function as an "in-house" researcher/translator when the need arises.

(That he manages to get anything useful out of my foamy-mouthed rantings is a thing of wonder all on its own...)

Interesting trivia, I think there was a VF-4 Battroid mode drawn for a video game before the actual Battroid drawn art was released. Can't seem to find a picture online, but it's hanging around somewhere.

Yes, you're thinking of the VF-4S(P/T) Siren that Masaya and the Macross II mechanical design staff did for one of Macross II's two video game prequels... Macross: Eternal Love Song for the PC Engine. It had a more VF-1-esque transformation (and four coaxial lasers on its monitor turret). It also had a beam rifle longer than the fighter itself, and funnels.

If it only describes the fighter-mode only, at that time, then the assumption of the VF-5000 is a non-variable fighter has founding in the lack of evidence to the contrary.

[...]

I have not seen the Flashback 2012 which was released in 1987 (5 year anniversary)...

... Did the VF-4 transform any in the animation? Did line-art from the production at that time have any additional Modes? Was there any detailed descriptions of any other modes?

Personally, I'd say the usage of 可変戦闘機 (Kahen Sentoki, lit. "Variable Fighter") in the art caption and/or description tends to be a "smoking gun"... to say nothing of the VF-# designation.

Also, the VF-4 had already been depicted as a fully transformation-capable main character craft in 1992.

The fact the VF-4, VF-5 & VF-5000 were all manned Fighters that could operate in Variable environments could also 'qualify' as VF units, though who know at that time (1995).

The term "Variable Fighter" has nothing to do with their operating environment though... and there's no shortage of variable fighters optimized for performance in one regime or other. (They would've known that, since the idea really got crammed into the limelight via Macross II, and never really went away thereafter.)

[sketchley]

All this talk about the VF-5... has anyone mentioned what Macross Chronicle has to say about it?

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/MCRmechanic/All01aVFmasterpiecesVF-1.php#frontR

Personally, I think Kawamori-san has said multiple contrasting things about it - how exactly does a water-landing space-optimized fighter work?

Nevertheless, someone mentioned earlier about the VF-5 on DeviantArt. Was it my interpretations that they were referring to? [Note: designed about 10 years ago, before Macross Chronicle was published, and based on the description on the Macross Compendium]

First version - the fighter water lands using the entire bottom of the fuselage!: http://studiootaking.deviantart.com/art/VF-5-62767743?q=gallery%3AStudioOtaking%2F142336&qo=3

Second version - the arms act as pontoons for water landings - making the water landing aspect a bit more realistic IMHO:

- Battroid: http://studiootaking.deviantart.com/art/VF-5-Go-Title-Page-136613604?q=gallery%3AStudioOtaking%2F142336&qo=4

- Fighter/GERWALK/etc in a mini-manga: http://studiootaking.deviantart.com/art/VF-5-Go-Pages-01-and-02-128200177?q=gallery%3AStudioOtaking%2F142336&qo=5

Third version - the fuselage is inspired by the Eurofigher Typhoon, with only a passing nod to the Sea Dart.

- fighter: http://studiootaking.deviantart.com/art/VF-5-Over-Gas-Giant-304272876?q=gallery%3AStudioOtaking%2F142150&qo=38

- lineart for all modes: http://studiootaking.deviantart.com/art/VF-5-Lineart-Rev-3-203284996?q=gallery%3AStudioOtaking%2F142150&qo=42

Edited April 9, 2015 by sketchley

[Mr March]

As the man says, GuardianGrey, M3 is Mr March's project. He does all the front-end stuff like the beautiful art, the elegant and finely crafted stats pages, and the layouts. I help out here and there doing the back-end administrative stuff that keeps the server running, chase new publications, and function as an "in-house" researcher/translator when the need arises.

(That he manages to get anything useful out of my foamy-mouthed rantings is a thing of wonder all on its own...)

It's a true bromance

When I grow up, I wanna be just like Seto!

[Kelsain]

All this talk about the VF-5... has anyone mentioned what Macross Chronicle has to say about it?

http://www.mtranslation.host-ed.me/MCRmechanic/All01aVFmasterpiecesVF-1.php#frontR

Personally, I think Kawamori-san has said multiple contrasting things about it - how exactly does a water-landing space-optimized fighter work?

Nevertheless, someone mentioned earlier about the VF-5 on DeviantArt. Was it my interpretations that they were referring to? [Note: designed about 10 years ago, before Macross Chronicle was published, and based on the description on the Macross Compendium]

Yes, those were the designs I remember! At least the first 2. I'm sure I said nice job, back then. But hey, nice job!

Maybe the water landing space fighter was supposed to mirror the water landing spaceships?

Edited April 10, 2015 by Kelsain

[GuardianGrey]

Lack of evidence is not proof of the fact, in and of itself, Seto Kiaba.

The V-Max article was also trying to stick with information/material that was cannon to the separate series at that time (of Macross & Macross II in 1995).

Since I have not seen Flashback 2012, I know not if the VF-4 transformed in. With the lack of any information saying that it did so, I am concluding it did not.

The VF-4's Siren series (1992) was mentioned in the V-Max article, though it was considered a part of the Macross II continuum and non-cannon of Macross main series (in 1995). As such, there would have been no cannon artwork for the VF-4 transformations at that time.

The VF-5000 has a similar situation, for I have no access to a copy of the publication that it first appeared in (1995). Since there has been no information forthcoming that more than its fighter-mode was printed at that time, then there was no evidence that it was a truly variable unit (in 1995).

Since we are on the subject only fighter-mode art shown, the YF-24 was that way as well originally, though (relatively quickly) a model/toy came out giving all a visual of the transformed unit.

There is line-art for two(2) non-variable units in the Macross continuum cannon that have the VF designation, the VF-X & the VF-X-4.

Sure, it could be argued that they were only proof-of-concept units, though why give a VF-X (or XVF) designation to a non-transformation unit that might not get more budgeting for?

The same "wrong" designation could be argued that many VF units of the teen numbers should have been classed as XVF or YF because they were system testbed units.

There is also no evidence that they were truly variable units, other than the VF designation. Which makes little sense because most were about G compensation or flight characteristics, that seems to be the issue most prominent (& best evaluated) in fighter-mode.

As commented earlier, reality also has this issue;

The F-107A was a test unit that only three(3) were built, though never classified as YF or XF by the USAF.

The F-117 has never (to my knowledge) carried any aerial defensive/offensive ordnance, so why would it be classed as a fighter? Almost all reported missions were bombing runs with that unit.

AV-6 Kestril was a prototype thrust vectoring unit that the USMC & BAE testing that lead to Harrier jet being adopted by the USMC & RAF, though it got no Y.

The V-Max articles in Vol.2 No.6 & 7 on the two Macross timelines was good, in 1995. Though, things have greatly changed and expanded in the twenty years since they were published. Even if the information is dated & considered incorrect now, back then it was a rare resource for anime fans in the U.S. that could not read Japanese at that time.

Edited April 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Mr March]

Uh, I think the big picture is being missed in a debate over minutiae. These are VFs ("variable" fighters) built in a franchise that is about transforming fighter planes

Seriously, I think the writers of the V-Max article simply did what any writer in their position would do when invited to an existing franchise and told to write something: they did the best they could with what they had. At the time, only the fighter modes for the VF-4 and VF-5000 were available, so the writers used that limitation creatively to write about both craft as non-variable. Perhaps they figured it made for interesting reading. But it turns out they were ultimately wrong and when the idea of a non-transforming craft called a "variable fighter" is considered in the context of Macross, it doesn't really make much sense. Might as well build a Ghost or a regular fighter and call it that, not a "VF".

Edited April 15, 2015 by Mr March

[Valkyrie Driver]

Besides, If I'm not mistaken, Kawamori himself said that the VF-4 and VF-5000 were supposed to be variable from the start, they just never had any animation done for the transformation...

[Mr March]

Agreed and that's where I think the production reality I talked about in my earlier post is relevant. I think the reason we didn't see the artwork until years later was simply that no one working for Big West devoted time/budget to ensuring that art was drawn/created.

I believe the only reason a VF would be non-variable is for real life production reasons; meaning, Big West has not yet paid Kawamori to sit down to draw the other modes. The VF-4 Lightning III was always a variable fighter and was always described as such in the offical literature. But it is true the Battroid and Gerwalk modes were not drawn until some years later (or simply not released?). So perhaps some overzealous writers decided they were non-variable because no one had produced any artwork for it.

Interesting trivia, I think there was a VF-4 Battroid mode drawn for a video game before the actual Battroid drawn art was released. Can't seem to find a picture online, but it's hanging around somewhere.

[Seto Kaiba]

The V-Max article was also trying to stick with information/material that was cannon to the separate series at that time (of Macross & Macross II in 1995).

If that's the case... then they failed spectacularly.

Since I have not seen Flashback 2012, I know not if the VF-4 transformed in. With the lack of any information saying that it did so, I am concluding it did not.

One of the MANY problems with this line of reasoning is that, as I indicated previously, there were already explicit statements that these mecha were transformable years (or in the VF-X-4/VF-4's case, over a decade) before the article was written. The same is true for the VF-5000... there may not have been art, but the existing material was VERY clear that it was a variable aircraft. Your claim that there is no evidence is demonstrably false (and, in fact, had been disproved several posts previously).

Since we are on the subject only fighter-mode art shown, the YF-24 was that way as well originally, though (relatively quickly) a model/toy came out giving all a visual of the transformed unit.

There has never been a toy for the YF-24. Nor, for that matter, art of its other two modes... yet, like the VF-4 and VF-5000, we know it's transformable because the text materials tell us so.

There is line-art for two(2) non-variable units in the Macross continuum cannon that have the VF designation, the VF-X & the VF-X-4.

Only one, in actual fact... the VF-X. The VF-X-4 is a transformable aircraft, per the notations in Macross Perfect Memory.

The V-Max articles in Vol.2 No.6 & 7 on the two Macross timelines was good, in 1995. Though, things have greatly changed and expanded in the twenty years since they were published. Even if the information is dated & considered incorrect now, back then it was a rare resource for anime fans in the U.S. that could not read Japanese at that time.

The problem, as originally stated, is that the information was incorrect back then, and time has not made it less so.

[Seto Kaiba]

Dunno if anyone's brought this up in this thread... but here's one going the other way:

NASA/CR-2005-213749 Advanced Energetics for Aeronautical Applications: Volume II offers analysis of some proposed nuclear fusion turbine engine designs that look an awful lot like the diagrams of thermonuclear reaction turbines in the old Sky Angels tech manual and Variable Fighter Master File.

They even bear up to some of the Macross-y overkill-sounding details like an unlimited sortie range in atmospheric flight... with a projected 60,681nmi range on a single pound of H¹-B¹¹ fuel. That's 2.8 trips around the world.

(Makes you wonder what a VF-1 can do with the 264lb of fuel it carries in its internal tanks...)

Edited April 15, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[David Hingtgen]

Just a thought, the F-117 (to my knowledge) never had any combat capabilities to facilitate an offensive/defensive role against other aerial units, yet it was still designated as a Fighter.

It was never intended nor supposed to be called "F-117". F-117 was an intentionally inappropriate designation used to hide its true identity. It was called F-117 because F-114, 115, 116 were already used for other black/experimental projects---some of the "F-1xx" designations were used for the numerous MiG and Sukhoi planes we had "acquired" and were flight testing at the same time. (can't very well publically call it a MiG-27 if we're not supposed to have any! So any flight test/paperwork would say "F-114" or something)

The Nighthawk just happened to get the "117" designation, as it was the next one in line. But that was never meant to be a "real" designation. There's probably something like an "F-128" flying around right now, that will get its true name of F-26, or A-14, or B-3 some day. (or, never be revealed and be a black project until 2045...)

The F-35 should be the F-24, for similar-but-different reasons.

[Andras]

Dunno if anyone's brought this up in this thread... but here's one going the other way:

(Makes you wonder what a VF-1 can do with the 264lb of fuel it carries in its internal tanks...)

Can you tell me where the 264lb of fuel comes from, just curious.

[Seto Kaiba]

Can you tell me where the 264lb of fuel comes from, just curious.

Extrapolation from Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2.

It helpfully identifies the preferred fuel and gives us the internal tank capacity... which, since the fuel is a real material, gives us enough to approximate the total fuel weight. Hydrogen slush has a density of 0.085g/cm³ (or 0.085kg/L) and the tanks have a capacity of 1,410L... you get 119.85kg of fuel, or 264lb 4oz.

[Andras]

Thanks