Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircraft

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm fully anticipating that Sketch, Seto, or Mr March will do so within three posts of this one...

Apparently I have failed you... but the official answer as to how the VF-22 does VTOL in GERWALK mode is that there are two banks of pivoting under-fuselage slits that act as the main nozzles for hovering, which would appear to refer to that expansion joint sketchley was talking about earlier.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Guardian Grey, Mr March

The Panavia Tornado also has the articulated pylons. But it is worth noting that no fighter to my knowledge carries air to air missiles on TERs (triple ejector racks) or anything more than double launch rails. SO that may have just been some creative license.

Seto

Gerwalk for most other fighters would be a no-brainer. I'm curious though, on how it would really work in fighter mode. I know a pic was posted earlier showing the thrusters, but that just doesn't seem like enough thrust in an earth standard environment.

[GuardianGrey]

A 10x greater explosion over weight, Mr. March?

Has been tested/done with different nuclear devices, though the Macross Continuum's duel-annihilation fusion-reaction (I think I got that right) of reactive weapons & systems I believe is suppose to be a lot 'cleaner' (e.i no left-over radiation).

I will have to agree you, Valkyrie Driver, on the missile racks. It's all ANIME* at times.

(* = ANIME; Any Noticeable Inconsistency May Exist; as in artistic/creative license)

----- Back to the Topic --------------

Since I started on the reaction-style power, let us visit the real life nuclear Jet turbines!

First the only two picture I could fined of ANY of the Macross thermonuclear turbines, the FF-2001 of the VF-1 Valkyrie

(is not the add girl so Kawaii!)

The idea of a nuclear powered aircraft is not new, though the hazards were.

The USAF wanted it 'safe' (for the crew at least) to operate, so they used a B-36 Peacekeeper (designated NB-36 due to it had a 3 megawatt air-cool nuclear reactor in its bomb-bay) to study of the best radiation shielding, though it was not (supposedly) to have powered anything in the craft (other than maybe its own monitoring equipment).

Meanwhile the turbines were being tested (yes, that big thing on rails was the rig for the tests), though significant thrust was (supposedly) never achieved.

The USSR did get a Nuclear powered aircraft in the sky, though it was in/as turbo-prop engines (which still are turbines) on a Tu-95 Bear bomber, and the tests were less than clean (supposedly the USAF atmospheric monitoring thought that were testing low-yield nukes every time it flew).

Also, of the 31 crew members apart of the Soviet project, all suffered from radiation sickness and all except 3 have passed on due to complications there of.

Even though a dud in the way people had tried t do so, some are still trying to make nuclear jet engines, though these are the first turbines I can find.

Edited March 11, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Mr March]

GuardianGrey
We'd have to ask Seto, since he did the translation of the book. I don't believe the AMM-1 are reaction weapons, but like much of the technology in Macross, it is merely MORE ADVANCED versions of conventional technology. While OverTechnology did lead to entirely new inventions (reaction engines/weapons, space metal, beam weapons, etc) humans appear to simply super-charge all their existing technology with OverTechnology. So the humans still use missiles, but they are all lighter weight, far faster and far more destructive. The humans still fly jet fighters, but jets are now aerospace craft for air and space that transform into robots. The humans still use projectile guns, but they shoot far faster and are entire orders of magnitude more accurate. The humans still use titanium armor, but is magnified by energy conversion technology. Most Macross technology is conventional technology, merely dialed up to 11 (forgive my fandom for Spinal Tap)

I'm unsure if I've ever seen that FF-2001 with the kawaii girl before. Where did it come from?

[anime52k8]

All I got from this is that the VF-1's engines are somehow powered by Shammy in a bikini.

Which makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

[Seto Kaiba]

Gerwalk for most other fighters would be a no-brainer. I'm curious though, on how it would really work in fighter mode. I know a pic was posted earlier showing the thrusters, but that just doesn't seem like enough thrust in an earth standard environment.

I'm pretty sure there's a good diagram of the VF-22's engine vents in the VF-22 Master File... I'll see about posting it a pic tonight.

As far as VTOL goes... don't underestimate the power of those little rockets. The big ones in the VF-1's backpack are good for at least 8,000kgf apiece, so I'd imagine the verniers have a fair amount of grunt to them as well. Particularly since they're designed specifically to confer high maneuverability in space.

A 10x greater explosion over weight, Mr. March?

Has been tested/done with different nuclear devices, though the Macross Continuum's duel-annihilation fusion-reaction (I think I got that right) of reactive weapons & systems I believe is suppose to be a lot 'cleaner' (e.i no left-over radiation).

That's what the old Sky Angels book says... 20kg warhead equiv. to 200kg TNT on the AMM-1A, and it's not a reaction warhead.

(The exact nature of the OTM thermonuclear reaction is a wee bit vague, but the only time I've seen any mention of anything like annihilation mentioned in connection with them is in the old VF Aero Report in This is Animation Special: Macross Plus. Reaction weapons are described in Macross Chronicle as being essentially a gravitationally-triggered pure fusion warhead, so they don't produce residual radiation.)

I'm unsure if I've ever seen that FF-2001 with the kawaii girl before. Where did it come from?

It's from the Sky Angels book, bottom half of page 41.

[GuardianGrey]

I forgot this for my earlier post & I know in Macross that the thermonuclear reactors/turbines are suppose to work in space, though the real life units still needed air to compress & heat for it to expand and be used as thrust.
Hence with the tech, while being within an atmosphere, the engines run as long as you have nuclear fuel, which was the whole dream of the Nuclear-powered Atomic-Bomber

So, if the VF are working in space, and are using an inert gas injected into the turbines for thrust, would that not have them be then technically rockets?

Also in the series (as the VF-1 squad is preparing for military salute for the Jenius Wedding), if I am remembering correctly that it seemed to show indicate thrust coming out of the Intakes to slow/stop them (may have been 'bad' animation & was suppose to be out the high pressure verniers)

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Okay, now back to the topic for both this tread & conversation; the vernier-thrusters & RCS (Reaction Control System).

For without them, while in space, we would be boldly going forwards because we can not find reverse!

The first picture is via the Macross Mecha Manual, showing the High/low pressure verniers of a VF-1A.

(if the color animation does not work, here it is off the site; http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/animated-vf-1a-fighter.gif)

The second is a vernier motor/thruster used by the Mercury-Atlas project during the 1960s

Finally the up-close view of the RCS in the nose of a OV-101 (Space shuttle)

On their use; they are fired for a set amount of time to start the movement, then another set is used to stop said momentum.

A high thrust pressure can be used for a short period of time, or a low pressure can be used for longer time-set, and both will gander the same result.

Vernier thrusters in real life (& assumed to be true in Macross, due movie referencing), unlike main propulsion systems (like the VF Turbines) do not have a throttle control; it is either they are on or off.

Two other movies that shown vernier controls are Space Cowboys & The Black Hole, though there are more.

The point of verniers used for a VFs VTOL maneuver in fighter-mode is that they might get you up & hold you there (until they run out of fuel, remember they are rockets) at said height; because they can not throttle down to reverse/land the VF in said mode (though can hold you there to transform to GERWALK mode) or throttle up to gain altitude (GERWALK mode with legs down for vertical thrust is needed for that).

Overtechnology might helped improve systems performance, but it does not change how it works.

Edited March 13, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

So, if the VF are working in space, and are using an inert gas injected into the turbines for thrust, would that not have them be then technically rockets?

They're not using inert gas... they're using plasma bled off the thermonuclear reaction as propellant in a MHD plasma ion engine, so if one really wanted to aggressively pick nits, it's actually an impulse engine ala Star Trek in space.

Also in the series (as the VF-1 squad is preparing for military salute for the Jenius Wedding), if I am remembering correctly that it seemed to show indicate thrust coming out of the Intakes to slow/stop them (may have been 'bad' animation & was suppose to be out the high pressure verniers)

's supposed to be coming out of the high-thrust verniers on the outside of the engine intakes.

(There's actually an error in that .gif diagram, the other two high-thrust verniers are on the wingtips... the blister on the nose is the FLIR sensors.)

The point of verniers used for a VFs VTOL maneuver in fighter-mode is that they might get you up & hold you there (until they run out of fuel, remember they are rockets) at said height; because they can not throttle down to reverse/land the VF in said mode (though can hold you there to transform to GERWALK mode) or throttle up to gain altitude (GERWALK mode with legs down for vertical thrust is needed for that).

Overtechnology might helped improve systems performance, but it does not change how it works.

Pulsed output could easily be used for simulating "throttling down" for VTOL landing using the verniers.

[Mr March]

Ack, bad diagram is bad Will fix...eventually when I have the time

[GuardianGrey]

Pulsing thrusters to simulate lower thrust output is tricky in a gravitational environment, Seto Kaiba, though not impossible.

Attempting to transition from vertical trust to horizontal flight, and then back to purely vertical thrust has always had issues.
The biggest in this case would be fuel and burn-rates of the vernier thruster motors.

This might be the scenario, if a VF-X had all the verniers of the VF-1 and the pilot was attempting to do a vertical take-off, horizontal flight & vertical landing.

This is loosely based off of a test flight of the X-35 before it was announced as the JSF trial 'winner' & broadcast via PBS Nova program, and logical conjecture of technologies as they stand.

The pilot starts the reactors, then places the wings out to full extension and the two-dimensional thrusters upwards at their highest angle of deflection.

With all preparations set; the pilot activates all of the ventral vernier motors which causes the craft to rises quickly to the maximum sustainable height of roughly 10 meters, before raising the landing gear & engaging the FF-2001 turbine into overboost.

The craft then surges forwards as it starts to loose some altitude before reaching take-off speed, the wings start to generate lift for the craft at which point the pilot disengages the verniers and continues the flight plan.

During the flight, the craft proceeds to go supersonic before returning to the airfield for landing.

Upon approach, the pilot checks the fuel that the verniers have left, & decides against doing any hovering maneuvers on this flight.

Coming in with a high angel of attack with landing gear down, the plane slows towards stall-speed and is flying as low as it dipped to during take off.

All of the ventral verniers fire again just before stall-speed is hit, keeping the VF-X in the air and gaining some altitude.
With the main turbines throttled down, the forward high speed thrusters fired for a short pulse to arrest all lateral momentum. then the pilot starts to pulse-cycle the verniers to lower the VF-X to the ground.

A misfire on two of the motors happen on the final pulse before touch down, due to running out of propellant, though the craft landed safely.

With this explanation; I feel that VFs are VTOL capable in fighter-mode, though it is not something that they should engage in because of safety concerns.

[GuardianGrey]

Even though both the X-9 Ghost & AIV-7S (QF-4000 under SMS control) may not be a VF, although the A.I. processors have real-life versions in development

One path of A.I. processing/programing is not unlike that of the Terminator series that has no biological components, & is the path I feel L.A.I. is taking with the "Judas System" in the AIV-7S.

(I know they say they are modeling it off of the X-9 Ghost's data, though does it mean that they are INCLUDING the unstable Bio-component?)

That is to simulate brain learning in sub-program/self-writing protocols over a directives base to expand responses.

(reports have the NSA's latest meta-data collection program having this feature encoded, to help stream-line, speed-up its own processes)

The other is the neurological processing chip (bio-neural microchip in Marcoss Plus) in that it had installed is real tech that is being developed.

In the series, it is stated that the bio-neural microchips as a core processor for an A.I. system have a 'unstable & dangerous self-preservation nature.'

If one thinks of ethics of life & apply that to the chip-set's POV; a person turns off the power, it is now devoid of any sensory information and deprived of food that could 'kill' it, so it would want to preserve its 'life' at whatever cost.

One must remember, any A.I. is limited by both its restrictive programing (like the three laws of robotics, also known as Robo-Ethics) and the experiences it has had access-to/learned/self-observed.

--- this is My Opinion of Bio-chip hack in the "Sharon Apple Incident" ---

The issue of performance & control of the autonomous A.I. (with only its combat programing) within the X-9 I feel the UNS engineers had it under control; after several fights and maneuvering operations without any indication of difficulty or flaws.

That is until the bio-neural A.I. DECU6000 (aka Sharon Apple), which only had the data/brain algorithms from Myung Fang Lone's to influence its choices made the decision to 'hack'/convince the Ghost's A.I. to do as it needed.

The A.I. system within the X-9 had nothing to counter the DECU6000 code-line with, so it would have no reason not to 'agree' with the requests.

Other than the 'agreement' and whatever code modification Sharon Apple did to the Ghost (removing any targeting limiters for starters); the X-9 performed all of its designed/programmed mission capabilities without any sign instability of situational judgment & nearly flawlessly execution there of in the dogfight with the YF-21, only to fail in recognition/avoidance of the 'kamikaze' attack run by Guld.

The DECU6000's knowledge-base may have also included the information from MK-Ultra project (look it up, & it is not Mortal Kombat!) to help entrance the population of New Macross City and have the UNS guards attack Myung within the SDF-1.

---------------------------------------------

If Sharon Apple's emotional/judgment data was from Myung Lone; were did the UNS engineers get said data for the Ghost?

Considering that the YF-21/VF-22 & the AIV-7S are products of General Galaxy (in the assumption that they helped make the X-9); the logical conclusion would be that it was derived from Guid's BDS operational recordings during the AVF "Super Nova" trials in the YF-21.

Edited March 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[GuardianGrey]

---------- Continuing with Topic ---------

http://www.vf-research.com/introduce/VF-0/VAL-0B/VAL-0B.htm

Even though the above unit did not get any screen time in Macross ZERO*, it does show-off the subject of energy/laser weapons.

Considering almost all VF craft seem to have at least one laser (usually on the head turret).

With the VAL-0B, it seems that the engineers wanted to put a Zentradi ship's laser turret as the head of a VF-0.

The first picture in thumbnails is of the Boeing NKC-135A that was used as laboratory/test-bed for the first official trails of Variable Airborne Laser systems from 1975 to 1984. Testing had it successful intercept air-to-air missiles (like the AIM-9 Sidewinder) and drone aircraft. After its retirement in 1984, the unit was given to the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio. It is currently in storage there due to the museum needing room for a C-5 Galaxy. According to Wikipedia, the museum is attempting to find it another institution for the unit to be displayed at, otherwise it is planned to be scrapped.

The second picture is of a Boeing YAL-1, which laser was being more specifically attuned to take out ballistic missiles during their boost stage. The program operated from 2001 to 2012, with the unit (a modified Boeing 747-200 that was retired from service with Air India) being designated the YAL-1 by the US Department of Defense in 2004. After loss congressional funding during the 2011 session & final flight on Feb 14, 2012; the unit was placed into storage, then scrapped in 2014.

The final post in thumbnails is of the Russian A-60 (based off the Ilyushin II-76). The Soviet Air Force Started the project in 1977, with the first units flight on 19 August 1981, and then flew a second unit that was modified to test a reported stronger laser system on 29 August 1991. The program was suspended & equipment mothballed with the fall of the Soviet Union, though reports of the Russian Air Force have reactivated the program as of May 2009 & maybe continuing at the time of this posting.

EDIT; * = Have been informed that the VAL-0B was not apart of the official designs for Macross ZERO; though appeared in a side-book called Macross ZERO VFERR (Variable Fighter Experimental Requirements Review)

Edited March 15, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[mickyg]

My dad worked on the YAL-1 project. Specifically wiring up the "scrubbers" used to clean all the toxic stuff from the gasses used, before they went back into the atmosphere. He said it was an amazing project to work on! Mostly talked about how amazing it was the see the B-1 there at Edwards though. Not sure if that was the NDA he had to sign or just his love affair with all things super sonic swing wing bomber.

Back on topic, this is an amazing thread. Love reading about all the what ifs.

[GuardianGrey]

I am glad you are enjoying it. mickyg. Though, it brings me no joy that your dad's work was gutted for scrap.

We are talking about Real World Technical References of Macross Variable Aircrafts, I feel sad that we do not seem to have the technologies to fully make one in reality (even if we had unlimited funds) with current materials.

The closest I feel we can get, with the postings here as evidence, would be a weak version of the YF-21/VF-22. And here is the short list why;

• Nuclear propulsion; even if we could get up to the thrust levels needed to fly (let alone go orbital) the unit would have to be centralized in non-moving/transforming area of the unit.
  

• Laser Weapons; yeah we have them, though at this point in time the units seem to large to fit into a head turret or arm.

  

• Structural Material; Carbon fiber mesh with titanium threads may help flesh out a frame of alloyed-steel, but it is no "space metal material frame" to handle all the stresses operating said unit would encounter, and that is not getting into the actuators to move the frame.

In reality, at the time of this posting, the only technologies that I feel can be readily and reliably built/reproduced are the regular aircraft/drones of the series & the possibility of Destriods (like the ADR-3 Mk III Cheyenne). Of which, I find funny because there is a wheeled mecha from Japan for around two million USD. Although, it looks like a cross from VOTOMS & Armored Core.

---------- Back to Topic ----------

VF Technologies with real world references (preferred prior to airing) that have been covered

• Engines; main thruster turbines and vernier movement motors - Check
• Laser Weapons; - Check
• Design Inspirations; there is never enough of that.
• Weapons systems; Missile racks - Check, Gun-pods... how the frackin' heck did we miss that!

Okay, I am not going to do as first thought. So, let us look at real Gun-pods!

In most cases (other than the F-4 Phantom II, that was designed without a gun) they are to help support the aircraft's mission or bring additional 'pain' to the engagement.

The first versions of 'gun-pods' were known as "blister packs" added to aircraft (like on the B-25 Mitchell, shown in 1st thumbnail) to enhance the aircrafts effectiveness in combat. To me, these seem to be a weak version of Super-parts for a VF, and cannot be ejected from the craft.

Then you have the conformal Gun-pods (on a Harrier jump-jet in the 2nd & 3rd thumbnails). Which are an improvement over the "blister pack" style & where apart of the design to try to speed up armament reloading (compared to internal gun systems), though to me still seem like super-parts that are not able to be jettison.

Finally you have the pylon supported Gun-pod (a F-4 Phantom II's SUU-23/A for the 4th, which was needed due to the feeling at the time that all air combat would be going to missile engagements only), which is staring to look like the Macross gun-pod units. though not new (both sides in World War II where experimenting/using pylon weapon packs). These are the fastest to change out, though due to the nature of the mounting are usually less accurate than the prior units (though that is without the Blessing of Overtechnology!). It matters the military and style of the pod (since some use the aircraft's power for the mechanics of the weapon), if they can be discarded after the munitions run out.

Edited March 16, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Valkyrie Driver]

Guardian since you brought up gun pods, I thought this one was worth a mention (VF-17, and YF-21/VF-22 may have been inspired by this one). This is the semi-permanent installation of the GAU-4 (USAF designation for the self-powered version of the M61 Vulcan)(The M61 is pneumatically operated and electrically fired).

Here's another view:

The gun took the place of the AIR-2A genie, and the doors had to be modified to accommodate the pod. In case you were wondering the F-4 actually had two different pods, the SUU-16 which contained an M61, and the SUU-23 which may have had a GAU-4 (my source cannot remember).

The F-106 was considered to be the better of the two arrangements, as it introduced less parallax to the gunsight, and was a generally more stable mount.

[GuardianGrey]

That does look like it could have been the inspiration for the firing port on the bottom of the YF-21/VF-22 there, Valkyrie Driver.

Something I feel that the studio rarely does for Macross is to have enough scenes that show different angles, with at least one per shot per weapon fired.

Example: In M+, I seen not animation of the Wing's lasers being user of the YF-19, nor did I witness the lower weapons ports that are on the hips or the head laser to 'discourage' pursing craft from following of the YF-21 used. I do understand for a short run OAV that there may not have been time/budget for, though did they show said weapons used on the VF-19 & VF-22 in the M7 installments?

---------- Back to Topic ----------

On the next thing I have to say on this topic, I can not find any good visually representations, so the reader may have to suspend there belief in reality & use their imagination.

We all have heard that in the Macross series of the SWAG Energy Converting Armor, and may think that sounds cool though not real.

Well, with different Smart Materials are that being developed, that might not be the case for much longer. For there are many that react differently to various stimuli.

Some do as the SWAG is presided as to become 'harder' (locking the molecules in tight position without contracting mass) &/or acting like a non-Newtonian fluid (you hit it hard & it reacts as a solid, you push gently & you go through the surface like a thick liquid; one version was shown on Mythbusters when a lot of cornstarch is added to water) though staying as a solid (I believe the movie The Core, that the Unobtainium works on this belief).

Others change there shape upon polar flow of electrical current. This more dramatic effect could/would explain the dramatic wing movements of the YF-21, when Guld 'flexed' it on the tarmac in the beginning of M+. Though it may not be armor, the flight surface material is of importance to anyone flying.

Edited March 20, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Example: In M+, I seen not animation of the Wing's lasers being user of the YF-19, nor did I witness the lower weapons ports that are on the hips or the head laser to 'discourage' pursing craft from following of the YF-21 used. I do understand for a short run OAV that there may not have been time/budget for, though did they show said weapons used on the VF-19 & VF-22 in the M7 installments?

The animation in Macross Plus does show the YF-19 firing its fixed-forward guns during the dogfight with Guld in the second half.

I don't think we see the YF-21's coaxial gun fire, but the bits that end up on the hips are where the gunpods are stored.

We all have heard that in the Macross series of the SWAG Energy Converting Armor, and may think that sounds cool though not real.

Well, with different Smart Materials are that being developed, that might not be the case for much longer. For there are many that react differently to various stimuli.

Exactly how energy conversion armor works is not clearly explained, unfortunately... but there are various materials in existence now that are at least similar in function (increasing rigidity and so on when exposed to a current or electromagnetic field).

Others change there shape upon polar flow of electrical current. This more dramatic effect could/would explain the dramatic wing movements of the YF-21, when Guld 'flexed' it on the tarmac in the beginning of M+. Though it may not be armor, the flight surface material is of importance to anyone flying.

Nah, that's just the variable camber wing mechanism... which works a bit like an active aeroelastic wing, just turned up to 11.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I thought this was worth mentioning here, even though it's too recent to really inspire anything Macross, it is an interesting development in aerospace that could be taking us closer to practical spaceflight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLD1TPsEi3E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf3F9AQ-JI8

I wish I knew how to get the video to show up in the box, rather than just linking, but here you go.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[GuardianGrey]

Seto Kaiba, on 20 March 2015 - 14:08, said:

I don't think we see the YF-21 coaxial gun fire, but the bits that end up on the hips are were the gunpuds are stored.

Response:

Then I am going to chalk this up to ANIME*, for the line art of the ventral (and almost all the toys) have the gun-pods on the outside of those panels.

Fighter mode (with duel gun pods) multiple views: http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21/yf-21-fighter-gunpod.gif

YF-21 and VF-22 fighter (ventral view) comparison: http://www.macross2.net/m3/forfansonly/compare-yf21-vf22-fighterventral.gif

Though, it being stowed behind said panel makes since as YF-21 transformed from battroid to fighter-mode after shooting at Isamu when they got past the "hot point" of reentry & the gun-pod 'vanished'. The other point was when the YF-21 was knocked to the ground in the City-fight on earth and whips out (of seeming nowhere) the gun-pod to have Isamu reverse the YF-19's advance.

Then, that makes me wonder are the 'holes' near the forward/hip joint area of the panels are firing-ports to allow the gun-pod to be used in fighter mode when stowed?
And, if they are stowed internally with the holes being ports, & pair was external on the YF-21/VF-22, would that allow the unit to hit a target with rounds from 4 GV-17L gun-pods?
Gun-pod version of Itano Circus?

Seto Kaiba, on 20 March 20115 - 14:08, said:

Nah, that is just the variable chamber wing mechanism... which works a bit like an active aeroelastic wing, just turned up to 11

Response:

I can see that comparison, Seto Kaiba, though I still think that an electro-flexible smart material is helping it get to that 11, though that is my opinion.

______________________________

Thanks, Valkyrie Driver, though I can see that the Virgin Galactic stock holders not happy about that development.

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

Okay, other than looking up something that was being talked about over on the AVF Update Candidate topic, I think I have ran out of the real & bleeding edge tech that goes into the VF frame & systems.

Though other than what I am looking up, the only other thing I have realized that has not been touched on is the EX Gear, which is & is not related to VF aircraft.

It is in the way as one pointed out, "it is a core fighter that you wear," with it being the cockpit systems, and the unit is (to my knowledge) impossible to operate without.

The way that it is not VF aircraft tech is the Power Armor/Suit functions. though the basic frame is familiar to many others (do to it being the simplest answer for a frame around a human body), there are a few that predate MF that could have been pulled from.

1. Cyberdyne's HAL 5 (also known as HAL for Whole Body), no don't laugh at the name of the company or the product. Okay, do so then we can get serious.
   It is a Japanese company that the founder wanted to aid medical facilities. They have reportedly turned down US military inquiries for they system.
2. DARPA's XOS-2; which if you seen 'Edge of Tomorrow" you see the a version there of, considering that the budget was cut for the Raydon company's unit and it is classified as only a proof of concept piece.
   The same idea was then used in Sledgehammer Games (with cooperation with DARPA) Call of Duty; Advanced Warfare, which in one of the trailers you get their exo-suit like the EC-Gear is stored in.

The rest is speculation, though shows that the baby steps are there.

____________________________________________

(* = ANIME; Any Noticeable Inconsistency May Exist)

Edited March 22, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Then I am going to chalk this up to ANIME*, for the line art of the ventral (and almost all the toys) have the gun-pods on the outside of those panels.

That'd be premature... and I really wish you'd stop trying to crowbar that baloney acronym in.

The underside of the internal bay door right beneath the intake is where the gunpods are stored when they're mounted internally on the -22. Toys, obviously, take certain liberties. On the -21, that appears to be nothing more than a flat panel over the articulations for the door.

Then, that makes me wonder are the 'holes' near the forward/hip joint area of the panels are firing-ports to allow the gun-pod to be used in fighter mode when stowed?

That'd be consistent with General Galaxy's design practices, yes.

Response:

I can see that comparison, Seto Kaiba, though I still think that an electro-flexible smart material is helping it get to that 11, though that is my opinion.

Doesn't seem like it, based on the available material... the descriptions I can find in Chronicle and Great Mechanics.DX indicate the material is a new, flexible composite material. Variable Fighter Master File has a cutaway of the VF-22 wing that shows the wing's internal structure, which has a modest internal frame surrounded by 9 Y-shaped actuator arms that are responsible for bending or flexing the wing surface in different ways... four on the leading edge, four on the trailing edge, and one on the wingtip.

It is in the way as one pointed out, "it is a core fighter that you wear," with it being the cockpit systems, and the unit is (to my knowledge) impossible to operate without.

Nah, we see Sheryl operate ("fly" might be generous considering her demonstrated skill level) Michel's VF-25G without EX-Gear in Macross Frontier's TV series. The episode is "Mother's Lullaby", about 12 minutes in. Note that while Michel ejected wearing military EX-Gear, HER seat was an ordinary control chair.

The way that it is not VF aircraft tech is the Power Armor/Suit functions. though the basic frame is familiar to many others (do to it being the simplest answer for a frame around a human body), there are a few that predate MF that could have been pulled from.

As far as I'm aware, the actual inspiration for the design comes from one Kawamori's pre-Macross projects... Genocidas.

Design-wise, it looks vaguely similar to the old Honda powered exoskeleton.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[David Hingtgen]

Those aren't ducts. They are nothing more than an expansion joint that collapses when it transforms into Battroid (like Venetian blinds).

See here for further details: http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21/yf-21-transformation1.gif (note how far forward the engine nacelle slides in the open position).

????? I always thought it was clearly implied to be a thrust vectoring cascade array (based on the arrows and notation), to provide for VTOL thrust etc in GERWALK mode. Sure, it also allows for the backplate section to slide into a new position---but that's also an inherent feature of slide-type thrust reversers etc.

If there were merely to allow for the backplate to slide---then why do they pivot open with multiple exposed gaps like that, are only present directly below the engines themselves instead of the entire rear fuselage, exist in the first place instead of having a simple overlapping/slide mechanism, and are designed in such a way as to so closely resemble one of the most common engine thrust-vectoring arrays?

IMHO, there is no way jet-knowledgeable Kawamori would design a feature underneath the engines, that closely resembles real-world engine vectoring arrays, and NOT intend it to vector the engine's thrust.

[Seto Kaiba]

????? I always thought it was clearly implied to be a thrust vectoring cascade array (based on the arrows and notation), to provide for VTOL thrust etc in GERWALK mode. Sure, it also allows for the backplate section to slide into a new position---but that's also an inherent feature of slide-type thrust reversers etc.

They are... they're mentioned on the Compendium, and Variable Fighter Master File: VF-22 Sturmvogel II even has a diagram that helpfully shows how intake air gets to those vanes and even labels them ホバー ベーン (hover vane).

(It's on page 66 if anyone cares.)

Edited March 24, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Mr March]

GuardianGrey
I noticed on page 2 you mentioned something that we should probably correct...

Now I know this is an after Macross came out for referencing, though kinda still ties in with the whole VTOL thing...

The YF-21/VF-22 has no thrusters (only veniers) in its legs, so my question was how does it fly/hover in GERWALK?
The line-art answers that it has ducts that vent from the engines downward behind the legs,

The YF-21/VF22 Sturmvogel II actually does have several VTOL components, including propulsion in the feet. The Macross Compendium entry for the YF-21 states:

Soles of the feet contain nozzles for VTOL for Battroid and GERWALK modes.
Two banks of pivoting underfuselage slits acting as main nozzles for VTOL hovering in GERWALK mode.

I've attached two pictures the show where the VTOL systems are located.

[sketchley]

????? I always thought it was clearly implied to be a thrust vectoring cascade array (based on the arrows and notation), to provide for VTOL thrust etc in GERWALK mode. Sure, it also allows for the backplate section to slide into a new position---but that's also an inherent feature of slide-type thrust reversers etc.

My bad.

Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works Pg 089 & 119 labels them "下面のスリットがVTOLホバリング用メインノズルです". (Kawamori's scrawl is so... illegible at times. Luckily not this time). I don't think anyone needs a translation to get the gist of it, eh?

[GuardianGrey]

Seto Kaiba, on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

That'd be premature... and I really wish you'd stop trying to crowbar that baloney acronym in.

Response:

I can see your point of view, Seto Kaiba.

Though, I do not have the knowledge-base resources you and others here have (had to chose not to follow the subject closely after M+ OAV, due to money related priorities). As such, what I may view as an inconsistency most likely does have an explanation that I do not yet know of. Until the point I have the proper information known to me, it is still ANIME.

I do thank you, & the others here, for explaining much that I did not have knowledge of which is making it harder for me to view the questionable material without an explanations.

I'll start saving that acronym for the inconsistencies of other anime series, like Lum & GUNDAM.

Seto Kaiba on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

Nah, we see Sheryl operate (...) Michel's VF-25G without EX-Gear in Macross Frontier's TV series.

Response:

I seen the picture, Seto Kaiba, and your point that one can operate a VF that is equipped for EX-Gear can still be used without the suit.

My intent was, without additional preparations of adding a control seat for the pilot to a VF rigged for EX-Gear it would be difficult/impossible to operate (though now assuming the passenger area is equipped with controls for the VF-25).

Main reference I would sight is in (I believe) episode 1, were Alto Saotome hopped into Henry Gilliam's VF-25F. Would Alto have been able to use the VF-25F without his PS/ML-21 EX-Gear on?

Seto Kaiba on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

As far as I'm aware, the actual inspiration the design comes from one Kawamori's pre-Macross projects... Genocideas

Response: O_o
I did not know of that, & pre-dating the Macross franchise??
Dang, Shoji has a very creative mind-set.

______________________________

Mr. March on 23 March 2015 - 20:57, said:

The YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II actually does have several VTOL components, including propulsion in the feet.

Response:

I see & understand the Slits, Mr. March. When I used the GERWALK mode ventral view of the YF-21 from the Macross Mecha Manual site, stechley seemed to think I was referring to the extended knee joint as the slits. Though I seen that as the misunderstanding, and have moved on.

As for the propulsion in the feet of the YF-21/VF-22, Mr. March, I was under the impression that they were just really big vernier thrusters. This was due to the installation of sub-hovering nozzles placed into the legs of the VF-22HG Schwalbe Zwei (under Program on the Macross Compendium's site).

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-22HG_Schwalbe_Zwei

Though, that may have been a misconception I had. And, if such, I will agree that I was wrong.

[Mr March]

GuardianGrey
I suppose it's possible the YF-21 foot nozzles could be used as verniers in space operation, but they are clearly described as used for the purpose of VTOL, not verniers. So primarily, they'd be VTOL thrusters of some sort.

Since several folks were confused, I figured a diagram would clear it up. The visual guides always work best

[Seto Kaiba]

I seen the picture, Seto Kaiba, and your point that one can operate a VF that is equipped for EX-Gear can still be used without the suit.

My intent was, without additional preparations of adding a control seat for the pilot to a VF rigged for EX-Gear it would be difficult/impossible to operate (though now assuming the passenger area is equipped with controls for the VF-25).

Ah, OK. I misunderstood your inquiry.

You need something mounted in the pilot seat slot, whether it's EX-Gear or a conventional pilot seat, otherwise, you'd have no stick, throttle, or pedals to operate the plane with.

It is, however, worth noting that under normal circumstances the pilot would not disembark in his EX-Gear. When you remove the EX-Gear, you're essentially taking both the pilot seat and the controls with you, which is why it's normally left in the plane unless a pilot is abandoning a downed or disabled aircraft (e.g. being shot down, being disabled by the enemy, or suffering a complete loss of control as in Ep13).

Though, I suppose, since the jump seat is standard equipment on the VF-25, Alto COULD in fact have operated Gilliam's VF-25F without EX-Gear, but he'd be piloting from the back seat the way Sheryl was.

Seto Kaiba on 23 March 2015 - 18:05, said:

As far as I'm aware, the actual inspiration the design comes from one Kawamori's pre-Macross projects... Genocideas

Response: O_o

I did not know of that, & pre-dating the Macross franchise??

Dang, Shoji has a very creative mind-set.

Yes... the Genocidas design was a Kawamori concept that predated Macross's original series, and served as an inspiration for the early transformable fighter concept designs (the "Breast Fighter") that ultimately became the VF-1 Valkyrie. I think Kawamori may have found a bit of inspiration WRT powered suits in the novel Starship Troopers, which Studio Nue did a relatively faithful adaptation of in '87.

[GuardianGrey]

Seto Kaiba, on 24 March 2015 - 13:59, said:

It is, however, worth noting than under normal circumstances the pilot would not disembark with his EX-gear.

Response:

Now that I am thinking about that, you are right, though like that gaming pin from earlier I seem to be one "arguing' on the series without actually watching it.

Though I was going to ask if one needed the flight-suit that is usually worn under the EX-gear to operate it, though I believe there is a scene that says, "no," to that. (were Alto & Michal are defending Klan's pod during Macronization (sp?).

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

Well, I have not found what I was looking for exactly, which was real life tech that could explain a Pin-point Barrier System.

Then, I see a CNN report (via Yahoo! News) May the Force-field be with you: Boeing granted patent for 'shock wave attenuation'

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/23/tech/boeing-shock-wave-attenuation-patent/index.html

Followed by a net search with, Boeing patents laser force field. How does it work? via the Christian Science Monitor.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Technology/2015/0324/Boeing-patents-laser-force-field.-How-does-it-work

I am not sure if this might class as a PBS, or start of a Full Barrier System.

Edited March 25, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Valkyrie Driver]

It seems that the way it's explained it would be a PPBS, simply because it protects in the direction of the threat as opposed to providing protection in all directions.

[ce25254]

Catching up after some time away. I just managed to grab a Cat's Eye kit from SSM store, so here's a comparison between

ES-11D Cat's Eye:

and E-2 Hawkeye:

There are obviously a lot of differences but I think this is the closest match for an Airborne Early Warning & Control plane.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Catching up after some time away. I just managed to grab a Cat's Eye kit from SSM store, so here's a comparison between

ES-11D Cat's Eye:

and E-2 Hawkeye:

There are obviously a lot of differences but I think this is the closest match for an Airborne Early Warning & Control plane.

Oh definitely, but it's inspiration none the less...

[GuardianGrey]

Seto Kaiba, on 23 March 2015 - 13:59, said:
I think Kawamori may have found a bit of inspiration WRT powered suits in the novel Starship Troopers, which Studio Nue did a relatively faithful adaption of in '87.

Response:
Remembered a YouTube video (Frontier Troopers), which would seem like a coincidental with your comment.

YouTube: Frontier Troopers -> http://youtu.be/P6H4KjKA3R4

Though this is purely speculation & tangent, maybe the Varja in MF is his (Kawamori's) way of bringing in elements of the Starship Troopers novel to the Macross continuum? Is it ever explained what aggravated the Varja to attack UN Fleets?

_______________________________

Valkyrie Driver, on 25 March 2015 - 11:05, said:
It seems that the way it's explained it would be a PPBS, simply because it protectes in the direction the threat as opposed to providing protection in all direction.

Response:

That is what I thought too, Valkyrie Driver, though I feel better with a second opinion there of.

______________________________

Response to ce25254 post on 25 March 2015 - 16:07:

I agree with Valkyrie Diver, & with the E-2 Hawkeye's size of airframe vs. radar-dome in ratio to that of the ES-11D Cat's Eye, it is a better fit than most other AEW for inspiration.

--------------- Back to Topic ---------------

Okay, looking up other tech that might be in the frame, though finding references for designs that maybe three to four decades old is tough. Though in Thumbnails I think I have a set.

The Lockheed C-130 Hercules & the VC-27 Tunny.

Even though the engine lay-out is more inline with the C-5 Galaxy, the VC-27 being a medium cargo aircraft would place it in the same class as the C-130. I also remember seeing a video of the military attempting to give the Hercules a pair of jet engines (placed above the wing like the Tunny's), though they kept the design as is (can not find images of on the net)

Trivia; A C-130 Hercules did a carrier landing (Look ma, No hook!), and take-off, without the assistance of the USS Forrestal (CV-59) that it used as a runway.

______________________________

EDIT: My appoloies, I do not know what happened to have the post submit sooner than finished or original double post.

Edited March 26, 2015 by GuardianGrey

[Seto Kaiba]

Though this is purely speculation & tangent, maybe the Varja in MF is his (Kawamori's) way of bringing in elements of the Starship Troopers novel to the Macross continuum? Is it ever explained what aggravated the Varja to attack UN Fleets?

Er... having read Starship Troopers, my gut reaction is "almost certainly not".

The two couldn't be more different, thematically. Macross is all about love, peaceful coexistence, music as a universal language, and other uplifting stuff. Starship Troopers is often accused (not without reason) of being a love-letter to militarism and fascism, where no character even considers any course of action other than annihilating the sentient Pseudo-arachnids* in the name of manifest destiny.

I think the Vajra were more an attempt to provide an inscrutable adversary instead of one who was practically human, though it would appear from the concept art that their anatomy was inspired by Zentradi mecha (though in-universe it's probably the other way 'round).

EDIT: Yeah, as far as the Vajra's motivations, there's something said in the final episode about the Vajra not understanding that humans were an intelligent species, and trying to "rescue" Ranka from them because she was (unintentionally) communicating the way they do... by fold waves. (Probably didn't help that her signature song produces a fold wave equivalent to a Vajra mating call...)

* In the original Starship Troopers novel, the Pseudo-arachnid "bugs" were not the mindless hive-mind monsters seen in the Starship Troopers movies... they were actually arachnid in form, individually sentient, telepathic, and of comparable intelligence to a human. They also technologically at least on par with humanity, including faster-than-light spacraft, directed energy weapons, and guided missile systems.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Seto Kaiba

[Andras]

Does anyone know what the a/c doing the refueling for the VF-0 in Zero were? They kind of looked like S3 Vikings.

[Seto Kaiba]

Does anyone know what the a/c doing the refueling for the VF-0 in Zero were? They kind of looked like S3 Vikings.

It was a S-3B Viking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_S-3_Viking#/media/File:Viking_S-3B.jpg <- Front view of a real-world S-3B Viking.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Seto Kaiba