Macross 7

[Duke Togo]

Its one argument that's they can't debate, imode, because they know its true. There is no magic or mystical ability in the original Macross. Its pure culture shock.

[Beware of Blast]

Culture shock can be many things. It's just a name given to that type of experience. From a religious point of view, it's called seeing the light. It can also be a situation when someone receives an epiphany or a realisation thru seeing things at a different perspective. It's like a child learning things in his or her early stages of education. It's not neccessarily porn. But porn is only one of these "realisations" - it's a medium as an alternative to using conventional weapons. Just like Minmay's music. Just like Basara's or Mylene's music. Just like Sara's songs. Culture was the first name given to that phenomenon. Anima Spiritia is more or less a better name (that is coined) later for that science.

Think of Anima Spiritia as some sort of super-powered, heart-rending soap opera, sardined into a song. Think of the Zentradis, the Protodevlins as housewives sobbing as Anima Spiritia tugs at their heart strings.

There is no denying that porn will work. But if Kawamori and gang were to show this, Macross will not exist. Just think of the Macross universe as a ideal world without porn as how Star Trek is without the need to use currency. It's not that hard.

[dna]

Its one argument that's they can't debate, imode, because they know its true. There is no magic or mystical ability in the original Macross. Its pure culture shock.

Read my post again Duke - I said there was no magic or mystical ability in any Macross, including 7.

[Duke Togo]

Its one argument that's they can't debate, imode, because they know its true. There is no magic or mystical ability in the original Macross. Its pure culture shock.

Read my post again Duke - I said there was no magic or mystical ability in any Macross, including 7.

I disagree. Its in both 7 and Zero, just Zero isn't as silly about it as 7 was.

[Duke Togo]

Culture shock can be many things. It's just a name given to that type of experience. From a religious point of view, it's called seeing the light. It can also be a situation when someone receives an epiphany or a realisation thru seeing things at a different perspective. It's like a child learning things in his or her early stages of education.

There is no denying that porn will work. But if Kawamori and gang were to show this, Macross will not exist. Just think of the Macross universe as a ideal world without porn as how Star Trek is without the need to use currency. It's not that hard.

LOL, no its not. Culture shock is "the anxiety people experience as they encounter and try to adapt to the customs and expectations of another culture." Your examples are completely off base.

There's porn in Macross just as there is money in Star Trek. What do you think latinum was? (I can't believe I actually know what it is...). There's no shortness of perversity and naughtiness in the Macross universe.

[1st Border Red Devil]

I cant believe Im gonna weigh in on this subject....I hated Macross 7.

However....the deal with Spiritia could simply be it is a technological process that is so advanced that it might as well be magic. Its Clarke's Law. It could easily encompass the culture shock aspect and be something that is nearly unexplainable in any fashion other than to just say that it works (ie - its non-Newtonian IIRC).

[Beware of Blast]

Duke, you are taking things too literally. I can understand your gripe with M7. If it is any consolation, just be glad there will never be anything like M7. That direction is done. If anything, the future Macross stories and direction will keep changing. It will never be another SDF or Plus. That's why I like this franchise so much. Everything else just bore me.

[Agent ONE]

Duke, you are taking things too literally. I can understand your gripe with M7. If it is any consolation, just be glad there will never be anything like M7. That direction is done. If anything, the future Macross stories and direction will keep changing. It will never be another SDF or Plus. That's why I like this franchise so much. Everything else just bore me.

I dunno... Kawamori said he wants a different feel to each Macross work, however the "feel" of MZero, and DYRL are almost the same to me... (I dealize this is subjective so I can't defend this poisition, it is just my opinion)

[Beware of Blast]

It's probably just me... I just like the democratic and imaginative way Kawamori and pals does things. I just don't question their methods of presentation, my opinions may be wrong... as I do get anal about the shows I like (particularly Macross)... but I REALLY don't see anything that rubs me the wrong way as far as M7 is concerned.

DYRL and Zero are a world of difference. As different as seeing the Macross thru another person's eyes. It's like TYPOGRAPHY DESIGN... same message, just different ways of conveying it thru different use of typefaces.

[Uxi]

Now explain to me please how the Protodevlin are defeated again?

is it their own emotions that make them weak?

Have you even watched M7? They weren't "defeated" as the word would imply at all. Geperenich "saw the light" as it were and they left. The M7 fleet was defeated if anyone was...

As far as any ol Britney Spears wanna-be being able to stop the war... you're quite right... but just as wrong in your ultimate point. Here's an excerpt from Macross 7:

"Even the superstar who saved the earth, Lin Minmei was just a pop

singer when she first debuted. I watched her from up close, from the

beginning . Gradually as she sung, her singing gained more power, and

eventually she was so amazing that she was able to stop the war. Everyone has potential. It is the duty of our project to realize this potential. "

The project is Project-M, meant to replicate Minmei's success. With training, practice, and Sound Boosters even some of the Jamming Birds were able to generate the aura that Basara had far earlier and with far more power.

Porn? That'd be one good porn star, but I'm trying to conceive of one able to generate anima spiritia and what any potential Sound Booster might be like...

Edited December 24, 2003 by Uxi

[azrael]

Have you even watched M7? They weren't "defeated" as the word would imply at all. Geperenich "saw the light" as it were and they left. The M7 fleet was defeated if anyone was...

As far as any ol Britney Spears wanna-be being able to stop the war... you're quite right... but just as wrong in your ultimate point. Here's an excerpt from Macross 7:

"Even the superstar who saved the earth, Lin Minmei was just a pop

singer when she first debuted. I watched her from up close, from the

beginning . Gradually as she sung, her singing gained more power, and

eventually she was so amazing that she was able to stop the war. Everyone has potential. It is the duty of our project to realize this potential. "

The project is Project-M, meant to replicate Minmei's success. With training, practice, and Sound Boosters even some of the Jamming Birds were able to generate the aura that Basara had far earlier and with far more power.

Porn? That'd be one good porn star, but I'm trying to conceive of one able to generate anima spiritia and what any potential Sound Booster might be like...

Throughout M7, people were able to generate spiritia even if they weren't special nor did they need to sing.

Everyone has potential. It is the duty of our project to realize this potential.

Bingo.

On the subject of porn....most of us guys will probably generate spiritia watching porn.

[Duke Togo]

"Even the superstar who saved the earth, Lin Minmei was just a pop

singer when she first debuted. I watched her from up close, from the

beginning . Gradually as she sung, her singing gained more power, and

eventually she was so amazing that she was able to stop the war. Everyone has potential. It is the duty of our project to realize this potential. "

More Macross 7 crap. Besides, she didn't stop the war, she paralyzed the enemy long enough so the good guys could clean their clocks.

[Duke Togo]

I dunno about the rest o fyou, but this mystical power of music didn't fly with me in Macross II, and it didn't work for me with Macross 7 either. The "culture shock" angle was far more realistic and plausible.

[imode]

I dunno about the rest o fyou, but this mystical power of music didn't fly with me in Macross II, and it didn't work for me with Macross 7 either. The "culture shock" angle was far more realistic and plausible.

Togo, just give it up already.

The M7 lovers and the M7 haters will never see eye-to-eye. Everything we hate about m7, they love. Can't win this battle.

[Beware of Blast]

I dunno about the rest o fyou, but this mystical power of music didn't fly with me in Macross II, and it didn't work for me with Macross 7 either. The "culture shock" angle was far more realistic and plausible.

That is why Mac 2 is never considered to be part of the Macross canon. The basic idea is that the aliens DON'T have culture. It just doesn't jive with Kawamori's version of Macross at all. The idea is to inflict culture shock on the enemy. Not have a band versus band, diva versus diva battle.

Edited December 25, 2003 by Beware of Blast

[Keith]

Hmm, where to start....

Go take a look at Shao Pai Loon, when Brita & Exedor see the film, as well as when they show it to Bodolza, the energy generated by Kaifun is instantly recognized as an ancient power.

It's not gun based, it's not "culture shock," is an energy been shooting from Kaifun's hand & zapping a giant. Though at the time it was little more than "movie magic," it was undeniably recognized by the Zentradi as a familiar power.

There you have it, "aniima spiritia," even incorectly diagnosed, did indeed exist in Macross way back in the days of Macross TV. This would later manifest itself in a true form in Macross 7. Kawamori has even been so kind as to place it into Macross Zero to affirm its placement in the continuity so that even Togo can't deny it. The thing you have to remember here when arguing such things, is that Kawamori & Mikimoto are/were huge Gundam fans. Gundam itself has its own mystical "Newtype" powers, so its no surprise to anyone that Kawamori would want to implement his own version of it into Macross. A mystical force that transcends all archaic notions of war.

As for Minmay, she was indeed nowhere near as powerful as Basara, or even what Sara has shown. The "culture shock" implemented through her is at the surface a simple distraction so that the U.N. Spacy could launch reaction weapons...or was it? The true power of Minmay didn't come from arousal, or distraction, but her ability to move peoples hearts. Her true part came into play long before the final battle with the Bodolza fleet, when the 3 spies invaded the Macross. Attracted by the initial "culture shock," they were woo'd (sp?) by the emotions they felt, and experiences they had. Through sharing them with the rest of the Britai Adoclas fleet, they created enough of a faction in the Zentradi to force Britai into signing a treaty with the Macross. His men wouldn't fight, and would only rebel if forced to. Those aren't the actions of an initial "culture shock."

It's those soldiers that Minmay won over with her songs, with the emotions she awoke in them, that turned the tide in the war. Due to the unfortunate lack of time, and Bodolza's intent to kill any further threat to his fleet, the Macross was forced to use Minmay as a 'shock" tool to distract them & save everyone's lives. Did they want to take out a huge chunk of the Zentradi fleet? No, but there was no other choice at the time. Would simple porn have done the job? No, because porn wouldn't have won over Britai's fleet, just confused them until they got used to it (see Kamjin), in which case it would have been useless. The Macross's shock tactics alone wouldn't have gotten them close to Bodolza's ship, and everyone would have been killed.

Even later in the series after the war, Minmay forgets her reason for singing, and just drudges through performances. When captured by Kamjin, she learns just that lesson about the difference between "culture shock," and moving peoples hearts. Kamjin through her trick back in her face, and caged her right back up.

In the last episode, we have Minmay (after losing Hikaru), deciding to seek out her reason for singing, to find her emotion in it, and to sing her songs for herself first before she can move anyone else. Again, understanding that she can't just simply "phone it in" like some Britney Spears. That's the true "Minmay effect" project M. was started to find. Max & Chiba could have easily found some pop band to use as a distraction, but they were looking for something more, someone with true conviction in what they were doing, someone like Basara & Ray.

That in itself is the true continuation brought about in Macross 7. Not a simple repeat of a culture shock phenomenon, but an evolution into a peaceful way to end wars without having to distract & use reaction weapons. Much like Gundam's distinction between a simple "Ace" pilot, and a Newtype, Kawarmori kicked the stakes up a notch from a simple "idol singer," to "Anima Spiritia." In it, isn't a simple DBZ ki blast to zap the enemy, but a raw physical manifistation of one person reaching out with their emotions to effect change in another. Despite the militaries attempted misuse of Basara, he knew the true potential of what he was developing.

As pointed out earlier, singing had nothing to do with the actual effect of Anima spiritia. It could have been just as easily generated by someone dancing, doing carpentry, whittling, drinking coffee, anything that someone can put all of their emotion into. It just so happens that the chosen medium of Macross is music, and as such, that's the form thats used. It also doesn't hurt that music is an easy to express format, not really requiring much understanding of language or style to be expressed. Over the course of the series, Basara goes from having no effect other than a basic "shock" reactions, to honing his personal concentration & skill into a tangable extention of himself. Through this we have the much bashed "first 15" episodes. What everyone keeps missing is that those episodes are important, not just for character introduction, but to establish the beginning of Basara's abilities.

When looked at in this way, you can see just how natural the progression is from Macross TV to Macross 7. Kawamori's point all along not being to solve wars through shock tactics, but to solve them through a created understanding. Like that Newtype thing where their minds open up to one another to form a perfect understanding. Though there are obviously still conflicts, and of course, resistence to such things, those are natural.

Plus is no different, in that it also displays a piece of this overall puzzle. There we have another dynamic of Idol verse's actual emotional effect. Sharon with her artificial pop idol hypnotism, and Myung with her genuine feelings reaching out to Isamu.

Zero too seems to be exploring this, as Sara expressed a force which is undeniably that very same "anima spiritia."

Lastly, regarding Macross II, I'm sorry, but no, 7 isn't a rehash. Big West demanded the songs be used to save money yes, but Kawarmoi has explicitly stated that he's never watched Macross II. The emulators are nothing even remotely like "anima spiritia." They're simply response triggers. The Marduk's Zentradi are trainied to respond to the different songs with different levels of fighting intensity. One song tells them to fight moderately, another more fiercely, and the "song of death," to fight with kamikaze tactics.

The Marduk themselves have nothing even remotely of the history that the Protodevilin have, nor any of their purpose. The Marduk are simply a rehash of the Bodolza fleet being sent to earth to destroy it. Ishtar a rehash of Minmay (absolutely nothing new whatsoever), and the whole of Macross II being a scene for scene replay of DYRL. Macross 7 on the other hand is an entirely original evolution of the story, not a rehash of DYRL. You name me a scene in II, I can name you its parallel in DYRL. The same can't be said for Macross 7.

What you're actually saying togo is that 7 is a rehash of DYRL, which again, isn't true.

[Myriad]

Let's all agree to disagree.

If you're wondering how he eats & breathes,

And other science facts...(la! la! la!)

Then repeat to yourself its just a show,

I should really just relax...

Edited December 25, 2003 by Myriad

[Duke Togo]

Hmm, where to start....

Go take a look at Shao Pai Loon, when Brita & Exedor see the film, as well as when they show it to Bodolza, the energy generated by Kaifun is instantly recognized as an ancient power.

It's not gun based, it's not "culture shock," is an energy been shooting from Kaifun's hand & zapping a giant. Though at the time it was little more than "movie magic," it was undeniably recognized by the Zentradi as a familiar power.

This reply proves just how TOTALLY clueless you really are. I didn't even bother to read the rest. Even Robotech fans know thats not what was going on in that scene. I don't see how anyone here can ever take you seriously, I know I won't from now on. Better yet, I won't even bother to respond to you.

[justvinnie]

Better yet, I won't even bother to respond to you.

That's a good thing!

vinnie

[bsu legato]

Hmm, where to start....

Go take a look at Shao Pai Loon, when Brita & Exedor see the film, as well as when they show it to Bodolza, the energy generated by Kaifun is instantly recognized as an ancient power.

It's not gun based, it's not "culture shock," is an energy been shooting from Kaifun's hand & zapping a giant. Though at the time it was little more than "movie magic," it was undeniably recognized by the Zentradi as a familiar power.

This reply proves just how TOTALLY clueless you really are. I didn't even bother to read the rest. Even Robotech fans know thats not what was going on in that scene. I don't see how anyone here can ever take you seriously, I know I won't from now on. Better yet, I won't even bother to respond to you.

Agreed. The last time this came up on the old boards, we looked at the actual dialog from Ep 27, and it clearly stated that Minmay's singing was to be used as a weapon. Period. They used it to disable a sizeable portion of Bodolza's fleet, allowing them to destroy Bodolza. There was NO discussion of converting, saving or otherwise winning over the enemy. This wasn't about passion, but pure tactics.

[Beware of Blast]

Hmm, where to start....

Go take a look at Shao Pai Loon, when Brita & Exedor see the film, as well as when they show it to Bodolza, the energy generated by Kaifun is instantly recognized as an ancient power.

It's not gun based, it's not "culture shock," is an energy been shooting from Kaifun's hand & zapping a giant. Though at the time it was little more than "movie magic," it was undeniably recognized by the Zentradi as a familiar power.

This reply proves just how TOTALLY clueless you really are. I didn't even bother to read the rest. Even Robotech fans know thats not what was going on in that scene. I don't see how anyone here can ever take you seriously, I know I won't from now on. Better yet, I won't even bother to respond to you.

Agreed. The last time this came up on the old boards, we looked at the actual dialog from Ep 27, and it clearly stated that Minmay's singing was to be used as a weapon. Period. They used it to disable a sizeable portion of Bodolza's fleet, allowing them to destroy Bodolza. There was NO discussion of converting, saving or otherwise winning over the enemy. This wasn't about passion, but pure tactics.

It is pure tactics! Same goes with the inception of Soundforce and putting Basara and Ray at it's helm in M7. But at the same time, it's also about passion. If they weren't good enough or didn't produced results, what's the point of having Soundforce or having Minmay to sing at all?

As for converting, saving or otherwise winning over the enemy... think of that as part of the tactics package. In SDF and DYRL, Minmay did successfully converted Britai - One of the Zentrans more influential leader - He saw the light that culture must not be destroyed and on top of that, should be brought back to his people. Had that not happen, everyone in the SDF will die. That much IS CLEAR.

Agreed on the part that Minmay paralyzed the enemy long enough so the good guys could clean their clocks. But the Boldoza's fleet and the rest of Zentradi ships, clearly out numbered the good guys. The other half of the battle was fought by Britai's force.

Just think of the "winning over part" which is over-emphasized in M7, as an advance level of culture shock. There is no magic or something literally mystical per se. But then again, there were many cases when insurmountable odds were won over by sheer determination, hardwork and courage that are seen as miracles - What happen, and where did that faith go?

[Nightbat]

Hmm, where to start....

Go take a look at Shao Pai Loon, when Brita & Exedor see the film, as well as when they show it to Bodolza, the energy generated by Kaifun is instantly recognized as an ancient power.

It's not gun based, it's not "culture shock," is an energy been shooting from Kaifun's hand & zapping a giant. Though at the time it was little more than "movie magic," it was undeniably recognized by the Zentradi as a familiar power.

There you have it, "aniima spiritia," even incorectly diagnosed, did indeed exist in Macross way back in the days of Macross TV.

have to rewind a bit....

Kaifun shooting moviemagic: culture shock!

the zentradi missinterpreted(god how do you spell that word ) what they saw

it's not an energy beam, it's Special Effects, an illusion, nothing more

No reality and no power whatsoever, except psychological for the person viewing them

The Zentradi did not recognize an ancient power, they never saw a movie before

(showing the neanderthaler a match, he will think you are a god!)

Like I said, it was the zentradi's own inexperience with certain elements normal to us, coupled to their inexperience with certain emotions

A classic case of "Being your own worst enemy"

Edited December 26, 2003 by Nightbat®

[Keith]

If you're not going to be open to discussion, then there's no point in you expressing your views either. Bottom line seems to be, you dislike 7 because you "choose to."

What I said stands, go back & watch for yourself. The culture shock aspects were mearly a stop gap on the way to the more advanced anima spiritia technique.

[yellowlightman]

If you're not going to be open to discussion, then there's no point in you expressing your views either. Bottom line seems to be, you dislike 7 because you "choose to."

Don't forget that disliking Macross 7 also shows how COOL you are. Because when you're you're too insecure with your own sexuality, you gotta be BADASS and hate singing dudes and all sorts of other "fruityness."

At least half the people out there hate Macross 7 just because it's the "cool" thing to do.

[Nightbat]

then the discussion is closed

It's like this: I happen to be one that has yet to see M7!

I do intend to, after that I'll say if I like it or not

My only statements were about why a "Conservative" Mac fan looks at M7 with a funny look on his face

(I may have no opinion if M7 is good or not, but I can voice my reservations why I'm not really rushed to see it)

And you like M7 because you choose to

In all these posts, there is no absolute reason for me to make M7 a "Must see"

I'll watch it only because it has the Macross name on it and that has me interested!

[Beware of Blast]

then the discussion is closed

It's like this: I happen to be one that has yet to see M7!

I do intend to, after that I'll say if I like it or not

My only statements were about why a "Conservative" Mac fan looks at M7 with a funny look on his face

(I may have no opinion if M7 is good or not, but I can voice my reservations why I'm not really rushed to see it)

And you like M7 because you choose to

In all these posts, there is no absolute reason for me to make M7 a "Must see"

I'll watch it only because it has the Macross name on it and that has me interested!

You have yet to watch it and wonder why you should (because people were bashing it), but yet your're drawn to post in a M7 thread? That is very ODD!

M7 detractors don't like M7 because Basara, Soundforce and Jrock were the "focus" of the story - It's that simple. They dislike the overall direction and the premise that the "original" culture shock concept had been turned into something mystical and magical.

It's kinda like how the original SW fans got turned off when "the Force" got demystified and were told that the Jedi are different and special because of Midiclorians, and the more they have of the Midiclorians, the more powerful they are.

But as far as Macross (especially M7) is concerned... the basic concepts and all that have not change. Honestly, Basara, Soundforce and Jrock are only the tip of the iceberg. The serious mecha and all the non "fruity" stuff are still very much intact - In fact, I dare say there are more of the serious Macross stuff to be seen in M7 than SDF and Plus put together.

If it helps, don't let the Anima Spiritia aura or power halos fool you into believing it's really magic. It's just artwork and animation to convey the idea of how the effects of music can be powerful. Kind of like the light show in Transformers the movie - when the Matrix was opened in Unicron... that ain't magic! That could probably some very powerful sentient Autobot virus wrecking havoc.

I'm not sugar coating the show. I have nothing to gain but loose more time posting and explaining trivial crap. The rest is up to you and those who haven't watch it.

[Nightbat]

You have yet to watch it and wonder why you should (because people were bashing it), but yet your're drawn to post in a M7 thread? That is very ODD!

Well, maybe odd but not without truth

here I am thinking "M7? Singing Valks? Magical sound?????" (lets not forget various comments over time like "Boring", "Gay"and "Jailbait")

we're talking "WTF???" in neon

I'm one of those "sceptic Conservative Macross fan with reservations"

So I start asking questions

all onesided, but hey: convince me

[Beware of Blast]

A classic case of "Being your own worst enemy"

Here's another classic case!

Okay Nightbat, now it's my turn to flash my WTF neon sign back at you.

Man, not to be crude, but that's pretty much how everything else work in life... I don't need to convince you. As a Macross fan, you need to convince yourself to watch M7. Your safety net (in case you don't like M7) is you still have your beloved SDF and Plus.

The M7 sales pitch is over and done. The Japanese audience love it. Period. There rest of us are just feeding on Kawamori's table scrap.

So, why wonder now only to wonder a decade later - why you didn't do it?

[CoryHolmes]

Ah, the joys of a heated discussion on Macross World. One reason why I keep coming back, time after time

Anyway, I dislike Mac7. My reasons are based mostly on my own point of view, but when is that ever not true for anything?

I like SDF Macross becuase it was a hard-tech show (something that I always enjoy), with no direct mention of super powers or anything of the like.

Following in that same thread, the discussion of what was originally intended by the creators, if they were really using anima spirita in the background waaay back when is a black mark against SDF Macross in my book. Takes away from the established story, in my mind.

Other reasons why I dislike Mac7:

-Cheesy Gundamish mecha.

-Mecha with faces is a no-no in ANY serious anime for me (with few exceptions).

-Added to that is mecha with breasts. Still a no-no (for the most part).

-Mecha with speakers? Sound doesn't travel is space, a basic rule of physics.

-Macross itself transforming was stretching the bounds of my believability in the original show. Transforming a ship that large with articulated hands and the main gun in a movable pod... not for me, thanks.

-Controlling the mecha with a guitar. Macross has always tried to portray itself as a serious show, in terms of realistic militaries. What realistic military would ever put any control for a machine in the shape of a guitar?

-The profusion of pop music. Never have been a fan of Jpop, so that's out in my book.

-The whole idea of "magic" in Macross. Nope. Not for me.

About why monsters are bad and 60 ft tall humans are okay? Well, it's because Macross' original story was about 60ft tall humans. Had the original baddies in SDF Macross been monsters, I would be much more accepting of them in Mac7.

Sure, Macross 7 delivers a lot of background story and information. Story and information some of us see as trampling over the story we enjoyed. I suppose the best analogy would be Star Wars, Original Trilogy vs the Prequels.

Star Wars was this great, loveable story that gained a huge fanbase. Sure, it had its low points (Return) and its problems (limited budget, limited technology), but it worked. Fast forward to the prequels. Bigger budget, better technology... and yet, it's almost universially reviled by all as stupid, asinine crap that tramples over everything the original show stood for, despite how it forwards the story?

... sound familiar? Well, that's how I see Macross 7. Pretty eye (and ear) candy, for the most part, but paling to what the original offered. Added to that is Macross Plus, which hit all the right marks for me, and Macross 7 is on my dislike list.

As for Macross Zero... well, it's straddling the line between 7 and Plus, to me. I dislike the magic bits, but love the action (when I can clearly see it on screen, that is ). So I'll wait and see, but I think the magic bits are going to put it on my dislike list, too.

EDIT:

ARGH! You beat me to all my best points while I was typing, BoB!

M7 detractors don't like M7 because Basara, Soundforce and Jrock were the "focus" of the story - It's that simple. They dislike the overall direction and the premise that the "original" culture shock concept had been turned into something mystical and magical.

So very, very true. That's EXACTLY why I don't like it. And I don't want to see it taken even farther in Mac 0.

But as far as Macross (especially M7) is concerned... the basic concepts and all that have not change.

That's true, but what's happened is the method of presentation and all the other concepts that Macross 7 uses turns we non-likers off to the point where we try to deny any impact that show has had on the Macross universe

Edited December 26, 2003 by CoryHolmes

[Beware of Blast]

Well CoryHolmes, I've said this in my previous post... If anything M7 won't win too many converts but it won't intentionally create people who'll dispise it either.

To be honest, at first I was kind of put off by all the main reasons you and the others have listed. But they served their purpose and were instrumental in providing the M7 story a good closure. And I grew to like it.

As for the "Boring", "Gay"and "Jailbait" arguements, to me they are either no more than minor distractions or simply non-constructive bashing. In Japan the very qualities of M7 that are "Boring", "Gay"and "Jailbait" could probably the norm. I maybe wrong.

If it's true M7 is the weakest link in the Macross chain, we shouldn't bash and fault it because everyone perceive things differently. My ultimate take away from M7 is the happy ending - That is the strongest impact that I don't get from the other Macross shows.

Just think of M7 as the 80s of the Macross universe - wierd David Bowie hair, platform shoes, gaudy colors and glam rock. Good times.

[Zentrandude]

ya i didnt like the mac7 ending either. losing battle7, basara loosing his vf-19... well all the vf-19 was destroyed or disabled. the vf-22 of max and miria was ok they just flew around and not like in the battle on screen (off screen who knows) they never found a planet to colonies was just too open. i rather would see it they found a planet then maybe if they do a sequal or ova if could be on how the colony is doing well or no well (incert plot or monsters and such and add in hero).

[Radd]

A bit of food for thought.

1.) The mission of the New Macross 7th Fleet was not to find and colonize a single planet, the main mission of the fleet was the expansion of a galactic communications network. This is mentioned several times in the series itself. That's probably why the 7th fleet is shown to only have a single colony 'City' ship, while other colony fleets are shown to have more. That's probably also why the 7th fleet faired better against the Varuta than the 5th fleet, larger military compliment.

2.) I have never seen spiritua or how music was used in Macross 7 as any form of magic. I can definitely see how some people might, but it didn't come off that way for me. Basara wanted to move people with his songs. He wanted to spread his own ideals through his music. He was passionate about it, that was about it. It seemed that the original reason the military (a very small, yet influential part of the military) backed Basara at all (Max and Ray being able to provide him with a VF-19 custom and all) was to recreate the culture shock aspect of how Minmay proved so successful in Space War I. Part of that is the pure shock that caused the hesitation in Bodolza's forces in that final battle, but even bigger was the long term effect Minmay had on Britai's forces as the Macross fought it's way back to Earth. Slowly bringing about defections in the Zentradi forces, and eventually helping to bring Britai's entire force over to aid the Macross.

A lot of people forget that aspect in the original SDF Macross. I get a bit of a chuckle at that, because the military in Macross 7 has the same reaction, yet the Macross 7 detractors never seem to notice that.

I've always seen the light emitted from Basara and Mylene and Sound Force in general being an embellishment, much like hearing sound in space battles.

I've always seen the Sounds Boosters as not literally speakers making sound in space, but transmitters, with speakers for atmospheric use. Meant to overpower enemy broadcasts and force them to listen to the music. Basically, high end electronic warfare equipment.

3.) Having gone back and watched some SDF Macross and some M7, I'd have to say that Keith's right about the amount of fan service. There's more of it in SDF Macross, DYRL?, and Macross Plus than there was in Macross 7. Well, to be more exact, there's more panty shots in Macross 7, and there's more outright nudity in each of the others.

4.) Macross has always seemed to me to be about 3 main things. A war/mech story, characters and relationships, and music. Different Macross shows have played with which of these elements take priority and to what extent, but these elements have been important to all Macross shows.

Personally, I think Macross 7 went the furthest in deviating from the original, placing the majority of the emphasis on the characters and the music, and the least amount of emphasis on the war/mech aspect of all previous Macross shows. That's fine with me, but I can understand why a lot of people would be put off by that.

5.) Side note, I found what makes the VF-19 designs shown in M7 look so different from the YF-19, it's the legs. The torso and arms are pretty much identicle, but while the legs of the YF-19 sloped inwards in the front, on the M7 VF-19 designs, all of them, the legs bulge outwards in the front. It's a little detail, but it makes a world of difference, making the VF-19 battroids look a lot more 'bubbly'.

6.) A few other things, I like Macross 7 a lot, but on my first viewing I was more than a little put off by the first 5-10 episodes or so. Sure, they introduced the characters and a bit of information and a wee bit of plot, but the pacing was far to slow, too much filler.

Now that I've seen all of it, when I go back to the beginning I find myself enjoying those episodes a lot.

Still, I think that since no show is aimed at people who've already seen it all the way through (and I hope I don't have to explain why) that the initial pacing of the show could have been done better. Everything that was introduced in those episodes could have been handled in a much better way.

People are welcome to agree or disagree on that, but I do think fans of SDF Macross and Macross Plus that currently dislike M7 to such an extreme may not have wound up disliking it so much if M7 started out more similar, emphasizing the mecha/war story aspect, whith a healthy dose of the character and relationship aspect, with Basara and company seeming like a side item, then instead of those filler episodes that we got, build up the music/character aspects and bring Fire Bomber to the forefront of the show while downplaying the mecha/war aspects to about where they were in the mid-to-later episodes of M7.

This would not have diluted the theme of M7, nor overpowered it's identity, but might have provided more than enough of a bridge back to the SDF and Plus balancing of aspects to bring in a larger fanbase. All of the episodes from about where most M7 fans agree that the series hits it's stride could have remained pretty much the same (though some better battles and mecha action could have given the mecha aspect fans more reason to like the show, after all the battles are there, they're just not animated very well).

7.) I agree with Corey about the presentation. Personally there's a lot I like about it, and some things I don't like about it, but I can plainly see where the presentation would put off a lot of people. Mainly stuff like the special effects used for Sounds Force and the Spiritua elements, some of the uniform and character designs, and of course everything that I've previously stated about the first dozen or so episodes. Plus there's the whole spiritua thing. Is it magic? Is it science? I thought it was more of a social remark. I can see where some people would be confused into thinking it was some sort of magic, just in the way it was presented. Keith is right in that it's not all that different from SDF (culture shock) and Plus (mind control), but it is presented in such a way that it's understandable to see people not make the connection.

There are a lot of people that mainly like Macross because of the mecha and action. They're not going to like M7 because it's mainly centered on the characters, theme, and music. The mecha can be colourful, the battles are poorly animated.

There are a lot of people that will be put off by the character designs, the colony fleet military uniforms, Fire Bomber's 'glam rock' stylings, the 'monster of the week' looking (and I emphasize 'looking' because they aren't presented in such a way story/character-wise) Protodevlin.

There's a lot of people that will just plain be unable to be able to identify with the theme, just like how not everyone in the show winds up swayed by Basara's song.

Conversely, there are people that love character development and relationship stories more than mecha action. There's people that will love Max's pimping captain's uniform, Fire Bomber's 80's rock style, and Sound Force's stylistic mecha. And there's people that will fall in love with the theme of the show and Basara's ideals.

It's just a shame that it's so difficult for people here to have a friendly discussion on what they like and dislike about the show. People aren't going to like it, and people are going to love it. There is no right and wrong. It's no more or no less Macross.

[Agent ONE]

...

This reply proves just how TOTALLY clueless you really are. I didn't even bother to read the rest. Even Robotech fans know thats not what was going on in that scene. I don't see how anyone here can ever take you seriously, I know I won't from now on. Better yet, I won't even bother to respond to you.

Debating with Keith is like asking your cat to stop crapping... Just pointless.

There was a thread a few months ago about DYRL being a movie with in a movie, kinda thing... EVERY member of MW was telling Keith he was wrong and he kept spouting off his falacies and stupidity. I am sure Keith means well in an angry confused teenager sorta way, but it is best to ignore his arguments about M7.

[Agent ONE]

If you're not going to be open to discussion, then there's no point in you expressing your views either. Bottom line seems to be, you dislike 7 because you "choose to."

Don't forget that disliking Macross 7 also shows how COOL you are. Because when you're you're too insecure with your own sexuality, you gotta be BADASS and hate singing dudes and all sorts of other "fruityness."

At least half the people out there hate Macross 7 just because it's the "cool" thing to do.

Really!?

So it is cool to hate M7!?

Well I am pretty bad ass... Hmmm

You are right! I am cool. Really cool. I now have a new reason to love myself. What a great Christmas.

[ewilen]

As far as I'm concerned the jury's still out regarding M7. Haven't seen enough of it to decide. But I wanted to comment on this bit by Keith:

When captured by Kamjin, [Minmay] learns just that lesson about the difference between "culture shock," and moving peoples hearts. Kamjin through her trick back in her face, and caged her right back up.

This may be a good way of reconciling something in SDF Macross with M7, but to me it's an unfortunate dilution of one of the best elements of the final episodes of SDFM. Which is that we get to see Kamjin grow from a somewhat comical villain into a complex, sympathetic, almost tragic figure--while still being a bad guy. The scene in question (along with others) shows that he's been partially acculturated, making him immune to "culture shock", but he's so obsessed with destroying the Macross that he doesn't entirely realize he's become a lot like his enemy.