Macross 7

[Radd]

While it's true that Basara himself changes very little over the course of the series (though he does change a bit, becoming more of a team player, if only just a little) the developement is in how the people around Basara change thier views of him and how they react to him. Basara isn't so much a character as he is an ideal, nearly a force of nature in the way he acts. That's the entire purpose of his character, to motivate the development of the rest of the cast.

I'd say the most developement, or the most obvious at least, was that seen in Gamlin, how his views about fighting and war and "the way things are" change over time. Max and Millia's personalities and relationship get a lot of screen time, with a lot of that spent exploring how they came to be the way they are now as opposed to how they were in the original series, and showing that there's still a lot of hope for their relationship yet as time goes by.

Gabil gets a fair bit of developement as time goes by, pretty much epitomizing the ideals behind Basara and how most other characters opinions of him and his ideas change over time, as well as providing most of the depth to the Protodevlin as a whole.

Really, I find it hard to believe someone could say they didn't see much character developement going on in this series. The way I see it, while Macross Plus leaned more towards the mecha and the action, Macross 7 took the exact opposite route, emphasizing the characters and relationships over everything else.

[Göönk]

I watched too many M7 in a raw and I used to think. "Damn that song is boring. Here it comes again".

So I stopped watching it, or I decreased the rate, and now I enjoy M7 more. I enjoy it so much that I want to see another ep right now ! But hey ! Vicious cycle !

[Beware of Blast]

It's kind of wierd that everytime when a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who are against it would bash the show again and again, with the same contrived and jaded reasonings. Why do these people even bother if they don't like it at all, and why do they go thru all the trouble to debate the M7 fans when all they have for the show is nothing but contempt, is totally beyond me.

Now, I would probably understand the need to bash M7, had the TV series, the OAV and movie were made JUST yesterday. But this has been going on for what..... as old as Macross World, maybe even the AFM days itself? Don't any of the old members think the novelty of the hate M7 should have died by now? Hell, even Robotech or Macross 2 don't get bashed as much these days!

If Robotech hating can be somewhat outlawed here, why are M7 fans allowed to be riled for sport?

If Macross Plus is considered (by them) to be the truer sequel to the original SDF Macross, so be it. Why not allow M7 to be the other true sequel for it's fans?

There are so many other things in M7 that are just not Singing Valkyries or Sailormoon-ish leading characters. Put those "plus" points together with SDF Macross, Mac Plus and Zero, we would get a near flawless anime mecha show that would last us a life time of sweet macho memories - And yet some of us would utilize the time to focus on the pussified aspects of it. Brilliant!

[Noyhauser]

my guess why it resurfaces is so that Agent one can get his free cheap shots in.

If you want to contribute something go ahead agent. I'm just waiting for a reply that will actually initate some sort of brain activity.

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

Well story line aside, 7 has some really nice mecha designs. While the story and charcters tend to grind on me, I'm really fond of the Varuta VFs, especialy the Fz-109F.

Damnit, I'm on Haro's comp and I forgot to log out.

Druna Skass

Edited December 22, 2003 by Dat Pinche Haro!

[azrael]

It's kind of wierd that everytime when a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who are against it would bash the show again and again, with the same contrived and jaded reasonings. Why do these people even bother if they don't like it at all, and why do they go thru all the trouble to debate the M7 fans when all they have for the show is nothing but contempt, is totally beyond me.

Now, I would probably understand the need to bash M7, had the TV series, the OAV and movie were made JUST yesterday. But this has been going on for what..... as old as Macross World, maybe even the AFM days itself? Don't any of the old members think the novelty of the hate M7 should have died by now? Hell, even Robotech or Macross 2 don't get bashed as much these days!

If Robotech hating can be somewhat outlawed here, why are M7 fans allowed to be riled for sport?

If Macross Plus is considered (by them) to be the truer sequel to the original SDF Macross, so be it. Why not allow M7 to be the other true sequel for it's fans?

There are so many other things in M7 that are just not Singing Valkyries or Sailormoon-ish leading characters. Put those "plus" points together with SDF Macross, Mac Plus and Zero, we would get a near flawless anime mecha show that would last us a life time of sweet macho memories - And yet some of us would utilize the time to focus on the pussified aspects of it. Brilliant!

And you wonder why, a M7-lover myself, hasn't added fuel to this fire....

[justvinnie]

If anything, Macross 7 is the truest sequel to Macross out of everything presented so far. It's not about the flashy mecha battles, it's about the love & music.

Jesus God, Keith, do you have a CLUE what Macross is about? The original Macross was a war drama focusing on personal relationships set against the backdrop of conflict, how they react to their circumstances, and the humanity of the characters, both human and Zentradi. Music played a VERY small role in the overall series compared to 7, and there is as much mecha in Macross as there are tanks and airplanes in WWII films.

Both Plus and Zero are far more faithful to the original series in my opinion. The relationships come first above all else. Macross 7 is almost solely about the music. You can't go two minutes in the series without being beaten over the head with another song, which at that point you are probably hearing for the 100th time. Its like watching Sailor Moon. The stuff hits the fan, here comes the costume change! I didn't see that coming! And I'd say Tuxedo Mask and Sailor Moon had a deeper relationship than anything I've seen in Macross 7... so much for love.

Kawamori decides to check in on MW to see what all his fans are up to. He proceeds to smack himself on the head as he reads the M7 whining and thinks:

"Yeah, what the hell would I know what Macross is about. Hell, I've been stoned everytime I make a new Macross show. How else could I possibly come up with the diversity of stories! frakk, I'm not even going to pretend anymore. I admit it! I'm just some smuck off the street that Studio Nue nabbed cause they needed a name to fill in for original story. I did not create Macross. I'm just poser. Macross was actually created by 3 monkeys locked in a room with a typwriter for the past 100 years. So go ahead bash M7 all you want."

[Smiley424]

I just recently finished watching all of Mac7 and found it enjoyable. I liked the mecha, M&M VF-22s were sweet, Battle 7 was pretty hot too. This series is definately different from SDF and Mac+ and I think that's just fine. If I want to watch SDF, I'll watch SDF. If I want to watch Mac+, I'll watch Mac+. To have Mac7 come out and just be a rehash of SDF with new characters, mecha, and songs is just weak. My only complaint about Mac7 is that the love triangle story isn't as prominent as in SDF and I feel that it doesn't get resolved at all really.

[Keith]

I just recently finished watching all of Mac7 and found it enjoyable. I liked the mecha, M&M VF-22s were sweet, Battle 7 was pretty hot too. This series is definately different from SDF and Mac+ and I think that's just fine. If I want to watch SDF, I'll watch SDF. If I want to watch Mac+, I'll watch Mac+. To have Mac7 come out and just be a rehash of SDF with new characters, mecha, and songs is just weak. My only complaint about Mac7 is that the love triangle story isn't as prominent as in SDF and I feel that it doesn't get resolved at all really.

I thought the real triangle there wasn't between Basara, Mylene, & Gamlin (everyone know's Mylene will end up with Gamlin), but between Basara, Sivil, & Gigil.

[Mr March]

It's kind of wierd that everytime when a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who are against it would bash the show again and again, with the same contrived and jaded reasonings. Why do these people even bother if they don't like it at all, and why do they go thru all the trouble to debate the M7 fans when all they have for the show is nothing but contempt, is totally beyond me.

To be fair BoB, I wouldn't be so quick to harp on the Macross 7 detractors. Having to listen to the Macross 7 diehard fans is just as bad as listening to the critics endlessly bitch and moan about how horrible Macross 7 is, yet they can't seem to stop discussing that fact. As a Macross fan who's only seen the first 5 episodes, it's most annoying to endure diehards vehemently tout Macross 7 as the true vision of Macross, only worthy sequel, you-don't-understand-Macross-if-you-don't-like-7 diatribe, blah, blah, blah. It seems like far too much political force feeding to me.

Problem is, this happens in every franchise. Why is Voyager a laughing stock among Star Trek fans? Why is Return of the Jedi the most harshly critiqued of the original three Star Wars films? Why is Gundam Wing a black mark for most Gundam fans? Why is fifth season of Babylon 5 so fiercely contraversial? There's always a weakest link in every franchise, and whether individual fans agree or not, Macross 7 is the weak link of the Macross series. Ever since the show has been released, it's been nothing but bad press. It's not important if fans from either side say it's true or not, or if people disagree with me for even stating this much as fact about Mac 7. It's perception and reputation, nothing more.

I intend to finish watching all of Macross 7 and form my own opinion. My point is, I think it's only fair that both sides take responsibility for this debate.

[nathan]

To me the problem is Basara. He forces his opion onto everyone else regardless of what they think or the consequences. How many pilot's were killed, wounded, or spiritia drained because they got distracted by that him? And does he care? Not in the least! Sure his singing eventually brought back the zapped people but it doesn't excuse him getting them zapped to begin with! All he cares about is what he wants. Mainly forcing people to listen to his song! He even treats his own band members badly! A show with a lead character like that doesn't make me want to watch it.

The whole music versus war thing could and should have been handled much better.

Other than that. There's the big plot hole of if the spiritia being drained so quickly from the galaxy that the protoculture even had the chance to stop the protodevlin in the first place. The rate of spiritia draining also gives question to why the protodevlin even needed an army much less have the time to raise one! I can understand the varuta army but not the Supervision Army. There's no need for them as the spiritia would have been drained frm the galaxy in minuets anyway.

As for the mecha the valks are great except fot the guitar sticks. The ships with the exception of the SDF-7 are pretty good.

Edited December 22, 2003 by nathan

[Nightbat]

Kawamori decides to check in on MW to see what all his fans are up to. He proceeds to smack himself on the head as he reads the M7 whining and thinks:

"Yeah, what the hell would I know what Macross is about. Hell, I've been stoned everytime I make a new Macross show. How else could I possibly come up with the diversity of stories! frakk, I'm not even going to pretend anymore. I admit it! I'm just some smuck off the street that Studio Nue nabbed cause they needed a name to fill in for original story. I did not create Macross. I'm just poser. Macross was actually created by 3 monkeys locked in a room with a typwriter for the past 100 years. So go ahead bash M7 all you want."

Nice use of same sarcasm:

How do you know what Kawamori thinks, for all we know he might actually hate M7, but isn't allowed (pride, big west or otherwise) to acknowledge that publicly

-

But M7 has all the elements, only in different quantities

and those clash with the tastes of some macross fans

as for why the anti-M7 fans keep it up: they silently hope that their bashing will prevent an Macross 7 Pt. II

[Zentrandude]

Kawamori decides to check in on MW to see what all his fans are up to. He proceeds to smack himself on the head as he reads the M7 whining and thinks:

"Yeah, what the hell would I know what Macross is about. Hell, I've been stoned everytime I make a new Macross show. How else could I possibly come up with the diversity of stories! frakk, I'm not even going to pretend anymore. I admit it! I'm just some smuck off the street that Studio Nue nabbed cause they needed a name to fill in for original story. I did not create Macross. I'm just poser. Macross was actually created by 3 monkeys locked in a room with a typwriter for the past 100 years. So go ahead bash M7 all you want."

Nice use of same sarcasm:

How do you know what Kawamori thinks, for all we know he might actually hate M7, but isn't allowed (pride, big west or otherwise) to acknowledge that publicly

-

But M7 has all the elements, only in different quantities

and those clash with the tastes of some macross fans

as for why the anti-M7 fans keep it up: they silently hope that their bashing will prevent an Macross 7 Pt. II

god no m7 part 2? the search for sivil.... or basara finds talant... or Viffidas become a telemarketter.

or for the fans m7 part 2 my animia spriticha is bigger than your spriticha... or m7 fleet finds a home and all elevators and airport bands plays firebomba music.

[Blaine23]

I would remark in this thread, but I think instead I'll just hit myself in the nads with a clawhammer.

It's much more pleasant than going through the motions of another Macross 7 bitchfest.

Watch it, don't watch it... I don't care.

[dna]

I just wish someone would pin this topic so it wouldn't keep coming up time after time.

If someone wants to know if it's good, just look at the freakin pinned M7 thread. Then we don't have to keep typng the same things over and over.

[Druna Skass]

To me the problem is Basara. He forces his opion onto everyone else regardless of what they think or the consequences. How many pilot's were killed, wounded, or spiritia drained because they got distracted by that him? And does he care? Not in the least! Sure his singing eventually brought back the zapped people but it doesn't excuse him getting them zapped to begin with! All he cares about is what he wants. Mainly forcing people to listen to his song! He even treats his own band members badly! A show with a lead character like that doesn't make me want to watch it.

The whole music versus war thing could and should have been handled much better.

That's what killed it for me, was the way they made Basara's personality. I mean I agreed with him the military force wasn't everything, but then like the U.N. Spacy he had a "my way or the highway" mentality. I mean why didn't he rally all the bands on the fleet togeather, I'm sure Firebomber wasn't the only one. Sure they didn't have VFs but the U.N. could have issued out more speaker gunpods for the 11s, and it would have been good for colonists. Then he goes and get's pissy that people don't understand him, well what has he done to get people to understand him? Yes the U.N. didn't really care much for him, but why didn't he just go straight to Max or Millia, they've seen what culture can do, especialy Millia? I've run into people like Basara before in real life and each time I've wanted to smack them, and even occationaly want beat the crap out of them. I can't stand royally self centered people.

Basara's what really killed 7 for me. Now all I do is watch it for the mechs and to see Max and Millia team up again.

[Druna Skass]

I just wish someone would pin this topic so it wouldn't keep coming up time after time.

If someone wants to know if it's good, just look at the freakin pinned M7 thread. Then we don't have to keep typng the same things over and over.

If that happend, how much you want to bet it'll start to look like the old hg debate thread?

[Agent ONE]

CROM laughs at your post editings!

[dna]

I just wish someone would pin this topic so it wouldn't keep coming up time after time. 

If someone wants to know if it's good, just look at the freakin  pinned M7 thread.  Then we don't have to keep typng the same things over and over.

If that happend, how much you want to bet it'll start to look like the old hg debate thread?

That's my point - it already does. At least we could keep it all in one place.

Just think of poor Agent-ONE!!! - he has to run all over the forum trying to keep up with all the M7 threads so he can write Basara is a gay whale loving michael jackson handjob giver wannabe. That's gotta be tiring for him. If it was a pinned thread, he only has to write it in one place.

[Agent ONE]

...

Just think of poor Agent-ONE!!!

Yeah... Think of Agent ONE!

[Duke Togo]

It's kind of wierd that everytime when a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who are against it would bash the show again and again, with the same contrived and jaded reasonings. Why do these people even bother if they don't like it at all, and why do they go thru all the trouble to debate the M7 fans when all they have for the show is nothing but contempt, is totally beyond me.

It's kind of weird that everytime a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who love it refuse to accept the fact that alot of people don't like it, and will not listen to a single word anyone says. We have our own opinions on the series, and we have as much right as anyone to discuss it in this forum. If you don't like it, I suggest you take yourself elsewhere. Its called open discussion, deal with it.

[Final Vegeta]

There several things I'd want to say, but now I don't have time... I'll just paste this article written by a Macross 7 lover on a jrock blog. I found his site years ago; I traced it back but it seems that now his older archives are down, so I'll paste it here.

There's no need to agree with what the article says, but it may be useful to know some unknown cultural inferences.

First, a couple of random quotes...

"You've been singing your heart out until now. But it's up to the listeners to make what they will of it. Maybe it worth while to think a little about why you've been singing, and why you're going to keep singing."

"The enemy had sound protectors on, so how could they hear the music?"

"It was not just the music. Their hearts touched the Protodevlin."

OK now before you think I'm going all crazy on you...where do you think those quotes are from? I'll give you three guesses...

And if you know me at all, you won't need to guess. Those quotes are, of course, from the anime Macross 7, my favorite anime. Why is it my favorite anime? Any anime dealing with music and jrock automatically makes it to the top of my anime list, and Macross 7 is as jrock-y as you'll get.

Yes, I know this is a Jrock blog and not an anime one, but let me explain. Macross as a series touches upon and explores the effect music has on human (and even non-human minds), but Macross 7 takes the concept to a whole new level. Why sing? Why make music at all? Why does music exist? And how can music, a collection of frequencies that vibrate in the ear, touch souls so deeply?

Macross 7 explores all those question in great detail, and I think that it has a great relevance to the jrock world. In fact, Macross 7, is the only Macross series to base itself around a jrock band instead of idol pop stars. Macross 7 is also the anime which explores the power of music to the deepest extent. Coincidence? I think not. There's something about rock music that is able to take music to a new level of feeling unprecedented by just any other kind of popular music. That's what jrock, and rock music in general, are all about. The right combination of notes and lyrics can touch a human spirit deeper than just words or actions ever could. Not that pop music is bad. After all, Lynn Minmay's songs stopped a war. But Fire Bomber's songs stopped an invasion of a galaxy. Hard to beat that.

More than anything, I believe that Japanese rock music carries the music of hope. In a country with one of the highest suicide rates in the world, that may seem a little odd, but that's probably precisely why jrock lyrics are the way they are. Compared to the endlessly angsty and depressing and death-filled lyrics of English rock artists, jrock lyrics can be poignant, beautiful, and full of optimism at the same time, without sounding corny. Read the lyrics of three of Fire Bomber's most sung songs: Planet Dance, Holy Lonely Light, and Totsugeki Love Heart. The lyrics spend little time bemoaning sad fates and cursing life. Why make a bad situation worse? In an age where cynicism is the fashion, it seems to me that it's braver and more innovative to make songs like that than to compose the same angsty stuff that everyone else is singing.

Interviews with jrock artists all reveal an intrinsic desire to shape the world around them with their music, to bend it and mold it and reform it according to their sound. Malice Mizer. Lareine. L'Arc~en~Ciel. Gackt. Even bands like Glay. Why do they do it? As Gackt said, "making the song come alive" is the ultimate goal.

The rock band in Macross 7, Fire Bomber, is also out for something different. The overarching theme of Macross 7 is that music is far more powerful than words, war, even death. Music is what binds the entire universe, and universes beyond ours, in harmony. Through Fire Bomber, the creators of Macross 7 show us what Macross is really about. Lynn Minmay was only the beginning of a musical revolution that stretches across galaxies and time and space.

I believe the reason that the creators of Macross 7 based it around a jrock band is the same reason why I like jrock: in an age of less-than-stellar bands and artists singing just for the money (especially in Japan, where jpop artists appear and disappear overnight) there's something about jrock that refuses to let go. Jrock isn't just about rock. It's about music. And that might just be why Macross was so incredibly popular in Japan...and why it receives poor ratings in the West. That might be why jrock bands seem so much more sincere than other rock bands. Because they believe in music.

I bet you if you go out on the street and ask people about the power of music, nine out of ten people will either give you strange looks or laugh. Music? Music is nice to listen to, to dance to...but there are so many other things to do besides obsess over music, right? Macross 7 is cheesy because it talks endlessly about music, and why does the singer guy sing the same three songs over and over anyway? Where's the plot?

Why does Basara sing the same three songs over and over, each time with a plea "Listen to my song! Why don't you understand yet?" Why do artists like Gackt sleep two hours a night, preferring to stay up and write a song? Why did X Japan keep going for so long when they only had three albums out in almost two decades?

Today, the message in the music industry seems to be quantity, not quality. The more songs an artist releases, the more popular he or she is going to be, apparently. Sadly, it's true. I'm not going to name names, but I'm sure many of you can see for yourselves. And even more sadly, jrock seems to be going that way as well. As the great names begin to fade away, new bands are springing up as thickly as weeds, and just as ephemeral.

But when it comes down to the bottom line, it's not about the lyrics, the singer, the guitarist, or even the band as a whole. It's about the music. If the vocalist doesn't work well with the band, it's all over. If the melody doesn't fit with the lyrics, it won't work, no matter how catchy the tune is. That's what Macross 7 is about. And in the end, it wasn't even because of the music. It was because the listeners felt the hearts of those making the music. It was because they understood.

Do you understand? Listen...listen to the music.

- If you will listen to my song...it's so easy... -

FV

[bandit29]

Uh yeah ....Macross 7 still blows

[Duke Togo]

Proving my point, Macross 7 was totally about the music, or should I say, the marketing of music. Not one of the other Macross series in the franchise has its main focus as the music (well, except for perhaps Macross II, but its kinda on the outside of things). Macross isn't about music, its about relationships.

And I have a VERY hard time taking someone who doesn't think Macross Plus was about relationships seriously. Macross Plus dealt with some SERIOUS issues, and dealt with them more intelligently than any other part of the franchise has to date.

[imode]

It has its merits for the overall macross storyline, but the way they presented it was just way over the top.

I prefer my anime to be more mature. (mature != hentai)

[baronv]

While I'm halfway through M7 right now I'm so-so about the series so far. I really wish the VF-11 didn't get it's ass kicked all the time since it's a cool looking ship. I really enjoyed seeing Milia fly her old VF-1, though why was she wearing the color scheme of Hikaru's flight suit instead of her full red/white accent one?

My #1 complaint though is Basara. I find it irritating his constant pacifist view while people are getting killed and turned comatose and he just flys around shooting speaker pods into the enemy shouting "Listen to me!". That was just really sad to see how good a pilot he is and just pretty much serenading the enemy while they shoot down planes and abduct citizens from the M7 city. I mean come on, there has to be some limit when he needs to actually fight back. I enjoyed it when the daughter hopped into her mom's VF-1 and started shooting down the enemies in the early episodes when Basara was just singing to them.

[Noyhauser]

Actually Duke since this is the first time I ever posted about macross 7 it would make it hard to make me a "usual suspect". I just posted to point out that a lot of the problems with Macross 7 are really because they are stylistic differences that Kawamori used rather than it being a piece of crap. Hearing people say "its the worst series ever" doesn't justify anything. Macross 7 was a popular television show in Japan. I wonder why is that? If people on this board don't like it, and yet it had a huge following in Japan, where is the disconnect? Its a valid point to be made.

Kudos to Drunaa Kass because of all people here he actually stood up and said particular things that he didn't like. Each one of your argument Duke I have refuted. Replaying of songs- wrong viewing format. Mac plus a sucessor to SDF mac - also refuted. How Macross 7 is a war story? Proven. If you want to discuss, discuss what is wrong with our opinions, don't come on here and use the 1st Amendment and say that its your right to believe what you want to believe. thats just a cop out. I completely understand that people don't like it. But a lot of it as Mr March pointed out is on Perception and reputation, which Macross 7 has gotten that it doesn't deserve. I love people who go "WTF?? MONSTERS ... AW THAT SUCKS!!!" well think about SDF Macross.. "WTF 60 FOOT TALL HUMANS ?!??! COOL!".

I personally don't think that Macross 7 is my favorite show. It was for awhile, but I like Plus a little better now. But I still think its pretty good, worthy of the Macross series and definately not worthy of the abuse that has been dished out here.

Could basara been more flexible? maybe, but then he would lose his qualities. Anima Spiritia were made out to be something special... that were almost godlike, and only Basara and (maybe) Mylene were worthy of that title. Look at Alice whatever her name was (the other singer) her spiritia rating was waaay lower than Mylene's, and I think it was that dedication what made them great. If Basara was a flexible person then his message would not be as strong. Maybe Kawamori is trying to tell people that even if you believe in something that everybody else believes its wrong, stay the course because you will be proven right or something to that affect. Also its a contradiction as well because there are people in the military who are just as strong headed as him, and yet people love those characters... so why do you hate basara? Just because he sings rather than fights?

Still I can completely see why Basara is maligned, and to be honest he is not my favorite character, give me Mylene any day over him.

And yes there are issues in macross about relationships, and yes they may be deep. But the facts are, MACROSS PLUS WAS INTENDED TO FEATURE VALKS. MACROSS 7 WAS MADE FOR STORY AND CHARACTERS. Yes music plays a part but its a part in the deeper question of Pacifism and Militerism. Yes music was integral but music was a vehicle for the story. The fact that it starts off with the band first would of tipped you off. But its still a war story, that has waay more character development than Macross plus. And the war aspect of it is very important. But don't kid yourself that music and culture wasn't important in SDF either. HAd minmay not been there then there is no way that UN spacy could of won. End of story.

[tetsujin]

Much like Gundam ZZ, I found the first 10-15 episodes to be insufferable. If a show can't snag me in that time, there's just a pretty good chance I'll lose interest. It also bugs me that they took an incredibly cool design from Mac Plus (YF-19) and turned it into total cheese (Fire Valk). Yeah, they had to simplify it for TV animation, but they made some really bad stylistic choices.

I do think there's a lot of good stuff there, but the cheap production really hurts the show, especially in terms of mecha. If they had taken the time they used to create the Fire Valk transformation and used it, instead, to make 5 or 6 cool little sequences with VF-11 or VF-17 fighting the Protodevlin, they could have repeated those endlessly and had some good battles. Instead the battles (in the early episodes, at least) followed the same pattern, often using the same 4-5 short snips of animation:

- VF-11s engage Protodevlin. VF-11s are blown up, escape pods are captured and drained.

- VF-17 flies in and shoots Protodevlin. One or two blow up.

- Fire Valk flies in, transforms in a detailed sequence rendered in more depth than any other mechanical animation in the early episodes of the series. Once in robot form it shoots (and hits) several Protodevlin with speaker pods (which seems to be something the Diamond Force can't do with live rounds) and Basara sings.

- The attack continues, combatants generally don't move around too much, etc.

As satisfying as it is in the first episode to see Basara try to stop the fighting by singing and fail utterly, the approach of Mac 7 is in some ways self-defeating, especially in these early episodes. They've put all the resources, all the fancy animation and all the focus on Basara and the Fire Valk - made his valk look like a highly merchandisable super-robot and set him up as the hero - and then they undercut that by making him look like a doofus and making his participation seem incredibly useless.

Hikaru from the original series was given many of the same conditions: one of the most recognizable and merchandise-friendly designs (red on white), his valk appears throughout the opening and on the eyecatches, and from the first time his custom valk appeared until the last time it was blown up it probably appeared prominently in every episode. Yet, for most of the series he's kind of a dufus. So what's the difference, in my opinion?

Roy Focker.

When Hikaru's out crashing into cruisers and dodging asteroids, Roy's out there kicking ass in his equally recognizable, only slightly less-merchandisable Focker custom. And since the shoestring budget for the original series was more appropriately balanced, no characters have any really impressive animation to show off (not until "Pine Salad", at least - and that Max vs. Milia sequence wasn't terribly reusable) but there's a general investment in the show's mechanical animation as a whole that makes things generally passable. Mac 7 puts all the eggs in Basara's basket, then hits them with a hammer. It's incredibly frustrating. I think a lot of the robot shows of that period had similar approaches to animation constraints (i.e., animate one thing really beautifully and then repeat it a million times, rather than animate two dozen different things moderately well) - I guess they thought it was a way to still deliver something impressive and eye-catching in a genre that was losing its audience, and stand out amongst all the other robot shows that had been made since the dawn of time - but it still strikes me as an unfortunate mistake.

Still, seeing Mac 7 for myself made it clear that the show wasn't as cheesy as people used to tell me it was, back when I was just excited that there was a TV show with VF-11s in it. It has problems, and it's goofy in places, but it's a fun show with potential. I can sit down and watch Gundam 0080 and still love the goofy G Gundam or even the convoluted, cheaply animated Gundam W - so if Mac 7 gets its crap together somewhere, maybe one of these days I'll get back to watching it. I probably left off around episode 15 or 20, still frustrated with the lack of explanation for why a civilian owned a fighter superior to anything used by the military aboard the Mac 7.

[Zentrandude]

i just feel sorry that the mac 7 fleet of vf-19 wasnt as good as basara valk or piloting skills...? some of the protodevin was realy anoying. those 2 that folds around to move while chulking like chicken and that flying monkey thats like the beauty of anything. the jamming birds was like the original idea for american idell which i hate btw. gamlin is ok excepts he gets millia valk wasted too fast ,hitting the selfdestruct button would be slower.

[Uxi]

You're wondering why a Civilian had an advanced Valkyrie... Gamlin wonders too but is blocked in his research. Later on, we learn that Max himself knows about it and comments about Basara's flying in that context... Then we'll hear hints about "Project M" and Ray's involvement with it (with Basara's unwitting complicity). Basara was being used as an experimental tool of the UN Spacy long before Sound Force was created...

I like M7 especially once City 7 gets separated from the fleet. It's alot deeper than SDF in many ways. It's easily deeper than M+, which was too short to effectively compete against the main series (but could compare against MD7). The infamous Macross "love triangles" weren't as interesting, but the plot was better in a few ways. Definately suffered from budget/animation difficulties but like every Macross series it brings something different to the table.

Overall, I like it better than SDF and DYRL but it's neck and neck with M+.

Some of the detractors have legitimate points. Some guys like A-1 are so ludicrous in their posting about it, they have very little credibility on it except for making themselves look like asses.

[dna]

but the cheap production really hurts the show, especially in terms of mecha. If they had taken the time they used to create the Fire Valk transformation and used it, instead, to make 5 or 6 cool little sequences with VF-11 or VF-17 fighting the Protodevlin, they could have repeated those endlessly and had some good battles. Instead the battles (in the early episodes, at least) followed the same pattern, often using the same 4-5 short snips of animation:

- VF-11s engage Protodevlin. VF-11s are blown up, escape pods are captured and drained.

- VF-17 flies in and shoots Protodevlin. One or two blow up.

- Fire Valk flies in, transforms in a detailed sequence rendered in more depth than any other mechanical animation in the early episodes of the series. Once in robot form it shoots (and hits) several Protodevlin with speaker pods (which seems to be something the Diamond Force can't do with live rounds) and Basara sings.

- The attack continues, combatants generally don't move around too much, etc.

I like M7 quite a lot, but this is 100% true. I really think the lack of money is what turns most people off to this series.

[Duke Togo]

I like M7 especially once City 7 gets separated from the fleet.  It's alot deeper than SDF in many ways.  It's easily deeper than M+

Its nowhere close to as deep as Macross Plus. The relationship between the main three characters is more intense than anything else in the Macross franchise, and we see how physical abuse, rage, mental illness, and loss have deeply affected their lives. The only thing close is Lynn Kaifun's drinking problem in the original SDF Macross and the loss of Roy Focker.

What do I get from Macross 7? Blatant and disgusting fan service, valkyries with faces (including a pink one), the overuse and abuse of some generic jrock for marketing purposes, an almost complete and utter destruction of two of the franchise's most beloved characters (Max and Milia... he cheats on me constantly, but we really still love eachother... we haven't aged, BTW, and our costumes are ridiculous), and an animation standard that at times fails to meet that of the then 15 year old original.

And just why does the Macross 7 transform?

Kawamori seemed to be at his best with DYRL and the series and movie follow up Flashback 2012. The Megaroad didn't transform becuase there wasn't any reasonable need for it to. The VF-4 is the most quirky and unique of all of the Valkyrie designs, without being fruity or silly. Like its characters, it was Macross all grown up and matured, and seemed to point the franchise in an intelligent direction completely disregarded in Macross 7.

Why? I would guess Kawamori was under pressure from Big West to produce the most marketable version of Macross he could, and be sure to keep pounding on what will make the most money: T&A, music, and the biggest cash cow of them all, cool designs for cool toys. And, BTW, do something with all of this Macross II stuff we have laying around...

Macross 7 is almomst nothing like the other Macross products, and Zero further hammers this home. The more Macross stuff Kawamori makes unlike 7, the more it stands out as the oddball in the franchise.

Could I go farther? Certainly, but I've done it so many times before I think we all get the idea.

Edited December 22, 2003 by Duke Togo

[Beware of Blast]

It's kind of weird that everytime a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who love it refuse to accept the fact that alot of people don't like it, and will not listen to a single word anyone says. We have our own opinions on the series, and we have as much right as anyone to discuss it in this forum. If you don't like it, I suggest you take yourself elsewhere. Its called open discussion, deal with it.

An open discussion is about seeking an understanding. Constant incoherent bashing with "creative" put-downs that are obviously working too hard - not to mention straining them out repeatedly at every single opportunity available, are something else.

[Agent ONE]

It's kind of weird that everytime a M7 thread comes up, the usual suspects who love it refuse to accept the fact that alot of people don't like it, and will not listen to a single word anyone says. We have our own opinions on the series, and we have as much right as anyone to discuss it in this forum. If you don't like it, I suggest you take yourself elsewhere. Its called open discussion, deal with it.

An open discussion is about seeking an understanding. Constant incoherent bashing with "creative" put-downs that are obviously working too hard - not to mention straining them out repeatedly at every single opportunity available, are something else.

Yeah man, usually some n00b comes around and says something like "whats with M7?" Which is an open question, and I answer it... So does The Duke. So do others.

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame. I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor. You should love me for this. Love me like I love myself.

[Duke Togo]

An open discussion is about seeking an understanding. Constant incoherent bashing with "creative" put-downs that are obviously working too hard - not to mention straining them out repeatedly at every single opportunity available, are something else.

As opposed to the constant love in some people around here are giving Macross 7? There are two sides to every coin. I got sick and tired of being told I don't understand the series. I understand it just fine, and I don't like it.