Macross 7

[PC Valkyrie]

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame. I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor. You should love me for this. Love me like I love myself.

Heh, Heh. Agent One. I don't post that much, but I just gotta say: YOU DA MAN!!

I love your attitude; it livens up this board and your posts ALWAYS make for an interesting read.

By the way, I also think DYRL is the absolute best and M7 definitely spirals in the wrong direction.

[Noyhauser]

Its nowhere close to as deep as Macross Plus. The relationship between the main three characters is more intense than anything else in the Macross franchise, and we see how physical abuse, rage, mental illness, and loss have deeply affected their lives. The only thing close is Lynn Kaifun's drinking problem in the original SDF Macross and the loss of Roy Focker.

Sorry that Macross 7 doesn't have overt love triangles to make it easy for you. Ray and Gamlin has PTSD, thats for sure, and that ain't cool.

What do I get from Macross 7? Blatant and disgusting fan service, valkyries with faces (including a pink one), the overuse and abuse of some generic jrock for marketing purposes, an almost complete and utter destruction of two of the franchise's most beloved characters (Max and Milia... he cheats on me constantly, but we really still love eachother... we haven't aged, BTW, and our costumes are ridiculous), and an animation standard that at times fails to meet that of the then 15 year old original.

Fan service... not even close to as bad as any other contemporary Japanese series. Man if you watched Chobits you would be floored. The fan servicing is probably just as bad as in the first series when you take it in context of the early 1980s.

Would you PLEASE READ MY POSTS ABOUT WHY THE ANIMATION WAS NOT TOP NOTCH OR THE REUSE OF MUSIC. If you want to come on here and argue please read other peoples posts, not hammer away at the same stupid issues.

And just why does the Macross 7 transform?

One good reason- The energy it would take to move the whole ship is a lot less than having to move the arm that carries the gun, That would allow you to swivel the whole cannon assembly much faster while firing the cannon so you can sweep a greater area, rather than having to move the whole ship. If you are pissed about the Battle 7... then you should really ask yourself why you like Macross first place because it transformed... maybe because Kawamori thought it would look cool?

Macross 7 is almomst nothing like the other Macross products, and Zero further hammers this home. The more Macross stuff Kawamori makes unlike 7, the more it stands out as the oddball in the franchise.

Kawamori has only made two television shows, so zero doesn't prove crap. Zero and Plus are OAVs, which are a lot different to make. You have more money to concentrate on less time, in some ways that makes it easier to produce. Seeing that KAwamori wanted to make 7 at the same time as plus, even though 7 would be made at a shoestring budget and Kawamori is very conscious about how his lines are developed I think he was quite aware of what he was doing.

[Noyhauser]

Yeah man, usually some n00b comes around and says something like "whats with M7?"  Which is an open question, and I answer it... So does The Duke.  So do others.

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame.  I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor.  You should love me for this.  Love me like I love myself.

no its more tiresome juvanile behavior that classifies your response to it A-1. Maybe you are being sarchastic or trying to be witty, I don't know or care. Most Macross fans like M-7 thats a given (in Japan where the target market is). Your "protection" is not needed nor wanted. I never said Macross 7 was the best series but the reputation you give it is completely unfair and doesn't deserve it at all.

Certainly Macross 7 has its failings. Yes it doesn't have the best animation, and its pacing is off. And the separation between the Ephemeral story and the deeper allegory is a bit wide. But it is still a good series that has a lot more to offer than at first glance (10 to 15 episodes in)Thats what I am trying to point out. Stupid mindless trashing of it however is not a failing of Kawamori or the series but the people who trash it.

Edited December 22, 2003 by Noyhauser

[Agent ONE]

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame.  I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor.  You should love me for this.  Love me like I love myself.

Heh, Heh. Agent One. I don't post that much, but I just gotta say: YOU DA MAN!!

I love your attitude; it livens up this board and your posts ALWAYS make for an interesting read.

By the way, I also think DYRL is the absolute best and M7 definitely spirals in the wrong direction.

Obviously a man of science!... Thanks for seeing the light.

[Agent ONE]

Yeah man, usually some n00b comes around and says something like "whats with M7?"  Which is an open question, and I answer it... So does The Duke.  So do others.

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame.  I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor.  You should love me for this.  Love me like I love myself.

no its more tiresome juvanile behavior that classifies your response to it A-1. Maybe you are being sarchastic or trying to be witty, I don't know or care. Most Macross fans like M-7 thats a given (in Japan where the target market is). Your "protection" is not needed nor wanted. I never said Macross 7 was the best series but the reputation you give it is completely unfair and doesn't deserve it at all.

Certainly Macross 7 has its failings. Yes it doesn't have the best animation, and its pacing is off. And the separation between the Ephemeral story and the deeper allegory is a bit wide. But it is still a good series that has a lot more to offer than at first glance (10 to 15 episodes in)Thats what I am trying to point out. Stupid mindless trashing of it however is not a failing of Kawamori or the series but the people who trash it.

[Beware of Blast]

Nobody is accusing anyone of not understanding M7 just because they don't like it. How M7 was made to be, is just a distinctive styling (both visual and conceptual wise) that every feature presentations out there try to carry - nothing else.

I like how Panon has put it that...

The problem is that many people predefine what they consider "Macross", then find Macross 7 is very different from that image they've formed in their minds.

I hate to say this, but the greatest enemy to the M7 detractors (as well as detractors of other shows) here is not the final product itself, but their unbelievably high expectations they burdenned on themselves.

Also, I'd like to add this from Final Vegeta's post...

More than anything, I believe that Japanese rock music carries the music of hope. In a country with one of the highest suicide rates in the world, that may seem a little odd, but that's probably precisely why jrock lyrics are the way they are. Compared to the endlessly angsty and depressing and death-filled lyrics of English rock artists, jrock lyrics can be poignant, beautiful, and full of optimism at the same time, without sounding corny. Read the lyrics of three of Fire Bomber's most sung songs: Planet Dance, Holy Lonely Light, and Totsugeki Love Heart. The lyrics spend little time bemoaning sad fates and cursing life. Why make a bad situation worse? In an age where cynicism is the fashion, it seems to me that it's braver and more innovative to make songs like that than to compose the same angsty stuff that everyone else is singing.

Every feature presentations too, carry with it an ultimate idea that the makers want to convey. The story and how the characters in M7 are crafted to behave, are exactly why it's been made that way.

Finally, Radd's Basara money shot...

While it's true that Basara himself changes very little over the course of the series (though he does change a bit, becoming more of a team player, if only just a little) the developement is in how the people around Basara change thier views of him and how they react to him. Basara isn't so much a character as he is an ideal, nearly a force of nature in the way he acts. That's the entire purpose of his character, to motivate the development of the rest of the cast.

Personally, I think it's been a double-edged blade decision. Many people do not identify with Basara being the geeky embodiment to that force of nature. But hey, who died and made anyone the rule maker?

M7 borrowing heavily from Mac 2 as far as music is concerned could simply mean Kawamori has only partial say so on what goes in during post-production. To Big West, it's simply a cheaper alternative than say, hire more song writers and musicians to churn out new material -- Not because he's publicly known for hating Mac 2, and is now eating his words because of M7.

Think of it as how Yamato have kept reusing the same mold for the many different valk color schemes and yet many people are still buying with little or no complains.

M7 is only the Macross franchise's weakest link by some opinion. If the show is seriously insulting and irritating, knowing Kawamori and gangs' standards, it would've been shelved at it's pre-production stages.

Personally, I think people who are genuinely interested in M7 would check the show out regardless of what's being said here. If anything, M7 might not win too many passionate converts, but it won't intentionally create people who despise it either.

[Duke Togo]

I like how you left out the the most substantial part of my post, Noyhauser:

Kawamori seemed to be at his best with DYRL and the series and movie follow up Flashback 2012. The Megaroad didn't transform becuase there wasn't any reasonable need for it to. The VF-4 is the most quirky and unique of all of the Valkyrie designs, without being fruity or silly. Like its characters, it was Macross all grown up and matured, and seemed to point the franchise in an intelligent direction completely disregarded in Macross 7.

Why? I would guess Kawamori was under pressure from Big West to produce the most marketable version of Macross he could, and be sure to keep pounding on what will make the most money: T&A, music, and the biggest cash cow of them all, cool designs for cool toys. And, BTW, do something with all of this Macross II stuff we have laying around...

Care to respond?

[bob joe mac]

Well I fully respect all the M7 dislikers but where are all the "fan service scenes"??

I mean the only one I really remeber was in Macross 7 Dynamite

I mean really look at this

Macross TV- NUDITY

DYRL- NUDITY

Plus- NUDITY (well movie edition)

Zero- NUDITY

7- uhhh I'm sure there is a panty shot somewhere and some cleavege I recall when sivil tries to seduce basara in Akiko and Rex's bodys but NO NUDITY

7 dynamite- Well here there is most definitly fan service with that wierdo rapeish scene but still no nudity. Besides that unless little girls do something for people I don't think the bath scene counts.

II- ishtars suit is FAR worse then Sivil's.

As said before if you think Macross 7 has imense amounts of Fan service DON'T check out ANY more anime out there.

[Noyhauser]

I like how you left out the the most substantial part of my post, Noyhauser:

Kawamori seemed to be at his best with DYRL and the series and movie follow up Flashback 2012. The Megaroad didn't transform becuase there wasn't any reasonable need for it to. The VF-4 is the most quirky and unique of all of the Valkyrie designs, without being fruity or silly. Like its characters, it was Macross all grown up and matured, and seemed to point the franchise in an intelligent direction completely disregarded in Macross 7.

Why? I would guess Kawamori was under pressure from Big West to produce the most marketable version of Macross he could, and be sure to keep pounding on what will make the most money: T&A, music, and the biggest cash cow of them all, cool designs for cool toys. And, BTW, do something with all of this Macross II stuff we have laying around...

Care to respond?

You can argue it two ways, from a creator's standpoint or a actual design standpoint.

You could argue that there was major failings with the First Megaroad design. The flagship of the fleet is fairly weak, and made the colony captains lives difficult to handle situations. (should I use the Megaroad in combat knowing it will tip the balance of power? THe new Macross series made sure that there was a strict separation between warfighting ships and civillian ships, so that civillian ships were separated, and that the flagship was a heavier warship.

The second way of looking at it is through Kwamori's Eyes. Its kinda funny how macross 7 is treated, since gundam Seed is getting the same rap. The original creator of gundams is doing Gundam Seed, which has some whacked out designs for Gundams. Kinda like on here some people like them some people hate them. I think Kawamori wanted to branch out a bit and make some new designs that weren't completely based on older ones. He could use the designs from Advanced Valkrie as well, which he had never been able to include anywhere else, like the Vartua mecha and the VF-14. I thought the new Macross Battle cruiser was so-so but when I played and watched the movie from digital mission VFX-2 I was blown away... its actually a pretty sweet design. The rest of the fighters were basicaly similar to older ones, except for the sound force ones. However it wasn't like they were common fighters, rather they served the purpose of pushing spirtitia warfare. (one off)

At this point though I think its better to drop it, I think we both give a good argument for both sides and anyobody who is going to change their minds either way will change, and those who aren't are beyond the sake of arguments from both sides.

[J A Dare]

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame.  I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor.  You should love me for this.  Love me like I love myself.

Heh, Heh. Agent One. I don't post that much, but I just gotta say: YOU DA MAN!!

I love your attitude; it livens up this board and your posts ALWAYS make for an interesting read.

By the way, I also think DYRL is the absolute best and M7 definitely spirals in the wrong direction.

Whoa...PC Valkyrie! Be careful handing out compliments to Agent ONE.

Next thing you know, you'll be circle jerking with him infront of a door knob the Agent ONE Way.

[justvinnie]

Kawamori decides to check in on MW to see what all his fans are up to. He proceeds to smack himself on the head as he reads the M7 whining and thinks:

"Yeah, what the hell would I know what Macross is about. Hell, I've been stoned everytime I make a new Macross show. How else could I possibly come up with the diversity of stories! frakk, I'm not even going to pretend anymore. I admit it! I'm just some smuck off the street that Studio Nue nabbed cause they needed a name to fill in for original story. I did not create Macross. I'm just poser. Macross was actually created by 3 monkeys locked in a room with a typwriter for the past 100 years. So go ahead bash M7 all you want."

Nice use of same sarcasm:

How do you know what Kawamori thinks, for all we know he might actually hate M7, but isn't allowed (pride, big west or otherwise) to acknowledge that publicly

-

But M7 has all the elements, only in different quantities

and those clash with the tastes of some macross fans

as for why the anti-M7 fans keep it up: they silently hope that their bashing will prevent an Macross 7 Pt. II

Lol. I don't care if people don't like M7. I love it.

Macross has always been about covering new grounds and interpretations. If people are so narrow minded that they cannot or will not accept the fact that M7 is indeed the brainchild of the Kawamori's fertile mind then there is nothing else left to be said. M7 is Macross the way Kawamori wants it. As fans, who are we to say that M7 is not Macross. It is simply not our right to do so. Besides as someone once said, "The fandom if left up to the fan would not exist." Or something like that....

As much as all the M7 haters want to believe, M7 was a sucess in Japan. It will always be no matter how much one wants to deny it.

M7 rocks. I'm rocking to Acoustic Fire.

vinnie

EDIT IN: For whom do you sing?

Edited December 23, 2003 by justvinnie

[Uxi]

Hmm well that came out wrong. I like ya A1, I just think you willingly exaggerates your position on M7.

As far as Togo... I think there's more depth in M7 because of it's longer length. Every character (except maybe Basara) grows substantially. Gamlin and Mylene the most. I even think Basara comes along a bit... which is more than Isamu did in M+.

Don't get me wrong, I like M+, M7 just has more meat and potatoes to it.

[Agent ONE]

Besides I find the show iritating and insulting... I won't let some n00b walk in, ask about M7, see it, then think we are all lame.  I am protecting the image of Macross fans, IE doing you all a favor.  You should love me for this.  Love me like I love myself.

Heh, Heh. Agent One. I don't post that much, but I just gotta say: YOU DA MAN!!

I love your attitude; it livens up this board and your posts ALWAYS make for an interesting read.

By the way, I also think DYRL is the absolute best and M7 definitely spirals in the wrong direction.

Whoa...PC Valkyrie! Be careful handing out compliments to Agent ONE.

Next thing you know, you'll be circle jerking with him infront of a door knob the Agent ONE Way.

Hey, that was only about marking my territory.

[Duke Togo]

Hmm well that came out wrong. I like ya A1, I just think you willingly exaggerates your position on M7.

As far as Togo... I think there's more depth in M7 because of it's longer length. Every character (except maybe Basara) grows substantially. Gamlin and Mylene the most. I even think Basara comes along a bit... which is more than Isamu did in M+.

Don't get me wrong, I like M+, M7 just has more meat and potatoes to it.

I think one of the big problems with Macross 7 is that is runs WAY too long. Its practically 50 episodes, and how many of those are basically the same episode over and over again? There have to be about 20 filler episodes in there atleast.

[Agent ONE]

Hmm well that came out wrong.  I like ya A1, I just think you willingly exaggerates your position on M7.

As far as Togo...  I think there's more depth in M7 because of it's longer length.  Every character (except maybe Basara) grows substantially.  Gamlin and Mylene the most.  I even think Basara comes along a bit... which is more than Isamu did in M+. 

Don't get me wrong, I like M+, M7 just has more meat and potatoes to it.

I think one of the big problems with Macross 7 is that is runs WAY too long. Its practically 50 episodes, and how many of those are basically the same episode over and over again? There have to be about 20 filler episodes in there atleast.

Yeah, but if it were good, we wouldn't be complaining.

I mean if there had been 14 more episodes of SDF-Macross that were just filler, I can't say I would complain. We don't like the length because the show is annoying.

[tetsujin]

The second way of looking at it is through Kwamori's Eyes. Its kinda funny how macross 7 is treated, since gundam Seed is getting the same rap. The original creator of gundams is doing Gundam Seed, which has some whacked out designs for Gundams. Kinda like on here some people like them some people hate them.

There are some differences:

1: I don't think Tomino was directly involved in the production of Seed. What I heard is that he was supposed to be involved but he didn't want to do it.

2: Gundam sold its dignity long before Seed (Double-Zeta... though at some level everything in ZZ is just an extension of what goes on in Z and MS Gundam). Macross has had comparatively few releases - but 7 came out at the same time as Plus, which was a fantastic series. The contrast is less favorable.

3: While Seed has its issues, I think there is no denying that it is an improvement over the Gundam TV shows of the late-90s. It's more approachable and pop-addictive than Turn-A, it's more engaging than X, and it's more serious than Wing - yet it also integrates the lessons of those shows - a bit of the experimentation evident in Turn-A (minus Sid Mead), the pop-merchandising power of Wing (but without quite so heavy an emphasis on the bishounen angle), and... probably something from X, too.

4: Combat in Seed, while perhaps not as good as it ought to be, is generally done pretty well. Fairly little repetition, anyway.

There are some similarities:

1: Seed does have some design issues, mainly with the stuff Okawara did all himself. (The first five Gundams on the show were done by Akutsu and re-done by Okawara. The last six were all Okawara.) Of course, on Mac 7's side it's mainly the Fire Valk and the MAXL that are a problem...

2: Emphasis on merchandising in both shows. Probably more in Seed than in Mac 7.

[azrael]

1: I don't think Tomino was directly involved in the production of Seed. What I heard is that he was supposed to be involved but he didn't want to do it.

Tomino is credited as creator of Gundam in Gundam Seed (i.e. Based on "ShowX" created by .....).

[Noyhauser]

1: Seed does have some design issues, mainly with the stuff Okawara did all himself. (The first five Gundams on the show were done by Akutsu and re-done by Okawara. The last six were all Okawara.) Of course, on Mac 7's side it's mainly the Fire Valk and the MAXL that are a problem...

Ah but you forget that there are more than 6 new designs in Macross 7 that are completely new. I think you could say for the most part it had all of its own designs. The only true predecsor you could say was the VF-11, but even the VF-19 was changed, looking nothing like the previous yf-19 and vf-19A predecessors. Most people don't think of the Vartua stuff as new but they are and they were direct decendants of the advanced valkryie series he wanted to do in the late 1980s. Macross 7 for the most part was completely its own designs. I'm pretty sure that Kawamori knew that they weren't all going to be marketable, but did it anyways because he wanted to showcase these fighters.

Gundam sold its dignity long before Seed (Double-Zeta... though at some level everything in ZZ is just an extension of what goes on in Z and MS Gundam). Macross has had comparatively few releases - but 7 came out at the same time as Plus, which was a fantastic series. The contrast is less favorable.

again its because Plus's emphasis was on combat and amazing visuals, while 7 was on the story and characters, which was supposed to read like visual manga

I think one of the big problems with Macross 7 is that is runs WAY too long. Its practically 50 episodes, and how many of those are basically the same episode over and over again? There have to be about 20 filler episodes in there atleast.

Completely agree with you here Duke... it does run way too long and could of been done with I would say 15 episodes left. The first 15 or so could be reduced to 5, and ther ecould be 5 less episodes like right before operation stargazer occurred. I think the movie when the galaxy is calling me could be included as well. Some of the fillers are amuzing though, like the E! true Story type episode I could live with.

Yeah, but if it were good, we wouldn't be complaining.

I mean if there had been 14 more episodes of SDF-Macross that were just filler, I can't say I would complain. We don't like the length because the show is annoying.

Wow A-1 you actually had constructive criticism... The sense that I am getting is that a lot of the people who say they don't like it didn't get past the first 15 episodes... which you could consider fillers. REmove those and I think a lot of people actually like the series. Therefore your argument about fillers not affecting attitudes towards the series is very contestable.

Oh and please don't make ignorant comments about things you have no idea about like who I am or what I do outside of this board. If the best you can do is post up 1990s era SNL photos about what your conception about who you think I am , it erases any respect I have of you as a person of intelligence that is worthy of discussion.

[Keith]

The first 15 episodes are necessary for setup.

-Basara is introduced & shown to not yet be effective (its a skill he has to build up)

-The Varuta fleet are introduced, and shown to be a much smaller enemy than they will become

-Gamlin is introduced, and shown to be a straight laced by the book pilot.

-Mylene is introduced & shown to be well, a teenage girl with potential to go either way.

-The M7 fleet is introduced, with Max & Milia's growing problem shown.

All of this is necessary for the great plot twists that occur later. If Basara had flown out right at the beginning all powerful, then the believability would have flown right out the window. If the Protodevilin were shown off from the beginning, then we'd have been wondering why they didn't just show up sooner in Macross history. Etc, etc, etc.

Through out the run we get some great character developement, some cool ass battles (despite those who choose to ignore ones such as Milia in City 7, Kinryu at Lux's orbin, operation Stargazer, etc). None of the "filler" episodes lack in plot or character developement. & the ending is just as climactic as the build up to it promises.

They're nowhere near the fillerness the origianl series episodes 28-34 (which were most certainly fillers). The bottom line is that those who don't like 7, don't like the power of music aspect of Macross period. They even ignore them in Plus, despite the fact that it was just as prominent there.

[Zentrandude]

those who don't like 7, don't like the power of music aspect of Macross period.

thats very bold and foolish to say. the music thou is repeated bit too much like a radio station.

the only great plot twist i saw in mac7 is when that guy says the protodevil leader (forgot the names) is a guy. i was like ahh noooo cant be.

[Keith]

those who don't like 7, don't like the power of music aspect of Macross period.

thats very bold and foolish to say. the music thou is repeated bit too much like a radio station.

the only great plot twist i saw in mac7 is when that guy says the protodevil leader (forgot the names) is a guy. i was like ahh noooo cant be.

I said "power of music" i.e. the anima spiritia, singing instead of weapons, etc.

How foolish is that to say when that's what's been said all along? Pay attention!

As for great plot twists, if you didn't like the whole Gigil thing, then you have no soul.

[Zentrandude]

those who don't like 7, don't like the power of music aspect of Macross period.

thats very bold and foolish to say. the music thou is repeated bit too much like a radio station.

the only great plot twist i saw in mac7 is when that guy says the protodevil leader (forgot the names) is a guy. i was like ahh noooo cant be.

I said "power of music" i.e. the anima spiritia, singing instead of weapons, etc.

How foolish is that to say when that's what's been said all along? Pay attention!

As for great plot twists, if you didn't like the whole Gigil thing, then you have no soul.

k mr. slander guy. first your view of power is very narrow. its also about stopping a war instead of combating without weapons as basara was trying to do like minmay, the very idea to change the hearts of the people it contacts (might be quoting ray or basara), also in a commericalist way (very minor) is to be known by everyone like minmay, many more when i get some sleep and post but i wont cuz mods can smell this fight.

your view is more warlike thou you using song energy like using chemical or biologgical weapons instead of conventional.

about no soul i was more surprised that sivil cried when gigil died to protect her (if i got the name matched right) but it wasnt a great plot twist cuz his char was going to do it from the begging i saw him left to city 7.

[Keith]

You haven't been here long have you? Just when have I ever said the power of music was like bio-weapons & the like? You simply stated that the music was "repeated to much like a radio station," while I said I was referring to its actual implications in the series, not its placement.

As for slander, just when did I slander you now?

[Zentrandude]

been here since like 2000 or 1998 i tend to forget things like that cuz i ignore noob arguments. im a warlike person so i know warlike things. singing instead of weapons is very warlike, view what the government did to that cult in usa using songs to anoy them out but instead they or government (for the ppl who belives that but to me im not too sure on which is right) burn that building down.

"awaits mods to lock the tread cuz you know its comming"

[JB0]

Pros: Basara sings better than Minmay.

Cons: Minmay doesn't sing every episode.

[Duke Togo]

You haven't been here long have you? Just when have I ever said the power of music was like bio-weapons & the like? You simply stated that the music was "repeated to much like a radio station," while I said I was referring to its actual implications in the series, not its placement.

As for slander, just when did I slander you now?

Admit it, Keith, Macross 7 in Kawamori's version of Macross II. I don't know why you keep denying this, the "power of music" is first explored and used there.

[Panon]

Admit it, Keith, Macross 7 in Kawamori's version of Macross II. I don't know why you keep denying this, the "power of music" is first explored and used there.

I don't know why you keep trolling Macross 7 threads with this despite how many times this "theory" has been shot down.

[dna]

Admit it, Keith, Macross 7 in Kawamori's version of Macross II. I don't know why you keep denying this, the "power of music" is first explored and used there.

I'd be willing to look at your arguments for this, but I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

While the emulators used music to condition the Zentraeidi (I never could spell that damn word) , it was no where along the lines of anima spiritia.

This is so out of left field.

[Duke Togo]

Admit it, Keith, Macross 7 in Kawamori's version of Macross II. I don't know why you keep denying this, the "power of music" is first explored and used there.

I don't know why you keep trolling Macross 7 threads with this despite how many times this "theory" has been shot down.

Oh, that's how it is. Anybody who disagrees with you must be a troll, huh? Do me a favor, don't reply to any of my posts anymore.

Edited December 24, 2003 by Duke Togo

[Duke Togo]

Admit it, Keith, Macross 7 in Kawamori's version of Macross II. I don't know why you keep denying this, the "power of music" is first explored and used there.

I'd be willing to look at your arguments for this, but I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

While the emulators used music to condition the Zentraeidi (I never could spell that damn word) , it was no where along the lines of anima spiritia.

This is so out of left field.

I don't see how this is so out of left field. Sure, by name it isn't Spirita, but you can't deny the similarities. Sound Force and the Jamming Birds can all be seen as emulators. Their power in Macross II has a very mystical quality about it. If I recall correctly, there's even a point towards the end of Macross II where she starts glowing while she sings. Macross II also has that conflict between the military wanting to use sheer force, while Ishtar wants to use music to save everyone, much like Macross 7 and Basara.

In the original SDF Macross, it is quite clear that there its not some mystical power force in music that helps defeat the Zentradi, but culture shock. Broadcasting a porno movie would most likely have had the same effect.

BTW, the use of music in Macross Plus is VERY different than seen in 7. What we see in Macross Plus is pure mind control by AI through the use of light pulses and subliminal messages in the music. There is nothing mystical or magical about it. Macross Plus is NOT about music, it mainly deals with the relationship between three people, and the dangers of AI.

Oh, before I forget, did anybody catch a bit in Zero episode 3 (I think) where the singing of a "Song of Destruction" is mentioned? I don't recall exactly what it revolved around, but I remember thinking at the time it was yet another Macross II reference.

Edited December 24, 2003 by Duke Togo

[Nightbat]

In the original SDF Macross, it is quite clear that there its not some mystical power force in music that helps defeat the Zentradi, but culture shock. Broadcasting a porno movie would most likely have had the same effect.

That's probably the biggest factor most Pro-SDF/Anti-7 see

It's "Too spaced out" to be believeable

Macross wasn't about "Magic" it was about science

it sometimes seems like M7 is a fantasy (I can picture Basara attacking his enemy with sword, shield and singing out loud)

and in 7 the magic was laid on thick! (this is something I hope they avoid in M0)

In SDF-tv it was just a normal singer, it could have been anyone (it could have been a pron-movie as Duke pointed out)

in 7 you had to be special, not talented but special with powers beyond belief

maybe that's a little overrated statement, but it sure looks that way

[dna]

In the original SDF Macross, it is quite clear that there its not some mystical power force in music that helps defeat the Zentradi, but culture shock. Broadcasting a porno movie would most likely have had the same effect.

That's probably the biggest factor most Pro-SDF/Anti-7 see

It's "Too spaced out" to be believeable

Macross wasn't about "Magic" it was about science

it sometimes seems like M7 is a fantasy (I can picture Basara attacking his enemy with sword, shield and singing out loud)

and in 7 the magic was laid on thick! (this is something I hope they avoid in M0)

In SDF-tv it was just a normal singer, it could have been anyone (it could have been a pron-movie as Duke pointed out)

in 7 you had to be special, not talented but special with powers beyond belief

maybe that's a little overrated statement, but it sure looks that way

And this is where I think the Anti-7 crowd is incorrect.

M7 wasn't really about magic - Basara didn't have special powers. He could have been replaced by anyone with strong enough conviction of will. This is why Mylene also had the power at the end, but had to struggle to grow for it. Ray and Vefidas also had the power. Noone ever accuses them of being magic. Gigil also grew into the power (as well as the other Protodevelin).

Anyway, to me this isn't magic at all. It's a scientific principle - measurable by science and even able to be harnessed and enhanced (sound boosters, big ass sound gun at the end).

As for Minmay, didn't Chiba actually dub this the Minmay effect, or am i getting things mixed up? It's been a bit since I saw it last.

I disagree with the pron film assertation. But I do think that it didn't have to be Minmay specifically - it could have been anyones else that happened to have the heart and conviction that her singing could stop the war.

[Zentrandude]

think one the ep shows chiba saying he wanted to find out minmay's secret in about to stop the war other than culture shock. rest i think he got greedy and named everything after himself. chiba sound unit, chiba sound booster. chiba pet and chiba lean mean grilling machine <_< k thats lame.

[Nightbat]

As for Minmay, didn't Chiba actually dub this the Minmay effect, or am i getting things mixed up? It's been a bit since I saw it last.

I disagree with the pron film assertation. But I do think that it didn't have to be Minmay specifically - it could have been anyones else that happened to have the heart and conviction that her singing could stop the war.

you're talking about a race that was never exposed to some -to our culture- very basic things

it was like showing a neanderthaler a match, it'd scare the crap out of them, but being somewhat human wish to learn from it and carrying you on hands to acquire that "power"

but it's just a match

so Minmay could have been any Brittney wannabe with a good voice

(a recording would've been enough untill the Zentradi got curious)

there are a LOT of people with a good voice, only a few who will never have and

Now explain to me please how the Protodevlin are defeated again?

is it their own emotions that make them weak?

or is there some unexplainable radiation eminating from only a few select characters which destroys them?

[imode]

I disagree with the pron film assertation.

I don't see how anyone can disagree with it. If men and women kissing and showing Meltrandi aces as mothers and wives was enough to defeat the Zentradi, showing a porno movie would probably give them seizures.