Battletech Thread: Transforming Mechs

[RedWolf]

Just a little history on the Unseen. FASA got their license on several images such as the Valkyrie and Destroids (Macross), mechs from Dougram, and fighters from Crusher Joe from TCI who in turn got their license from Tatsunoko. Who happens to license SDF Macross to Harmony Gold also. Yes what mess Tatsunoko Production made on that.

In 1996 Playmates released a Exo-Squad toy that looked like a Mad Cat (Timber Wolf). Of course FASA sued on that. Playmates was ordered by the court to stop using Mad Cat images. It happens Playmates is in bed with Harmony Gold. So FASA voluntarily to avoid potential lawsuits moved that licensed images and out house images would not be used in their publications and board game products. Dubbed Unseen by fans.

The classic mechs with exception of the Land Air Mechs got the Project Phoenix treatment where they are drastically redesigned.

Later Catalyst third owner of the Battlech franchise managed get license for classic mechs that they got the Reseen treatment. Though they can't use mecha from SDF Macross for Reseen.

Land Air Mechs first appeared in Aerotech. The Mech and fighter modes are closer to the VF-1 Valkyries. Though the Air Mech mode is oddly the fighter on top of the torso.

Technical Readout 3025 the Land Air Mechs got a bit of distinction from each other in Air Mech modes. The wings are fixed swept wings instead of the variable wing F-14 Tomcat style of the VF-1.

Unidentified Unseen Land Air Mechs

In 1987 Battleforce (top right), The Succession Wars (below) and Mercernary's Handbook (both top left and below) showed LAMs that are different from Aerotech and TRO: 3025. Legs fold at the center instead going at the back between the lower intakes. Arms connected to the lower intakes. Instead of two wings connected to a fuselage it is a single large wing. Difference the two images is that two are forward swept wings while the other is swept wing.

In 1994 Tactical Handbook showed another forward swept wing LAM (top left) similar to the two in Battleforce.

Star League LAMs

In Technical Readout 3085 the Mark I LAMs were shown. Like the Hammerhands is the precursor to the Unseen Warhammer version the Mark I LAMs were different in appearance predecessors of the 2701 produced Phoenix Hawk LAM, Stinger LAM and Wasp LAM which are now called Mark II's. Not to mention House variants produced during the Succession Wars such as the House Marik PHX-HK2M, Draconis Combine STG-A10, and the Capellan prototype Wasp LAMs (WSP-105M Wasp LAM produced in 3024?).

Shadow Hawk LAM and Mark 1 LAMs

SHD-HK2 Shadow Hawk LAM

The Shadow Hawk LAM was mentioned in TRO 3025 as a precursor to the Phoenix Hawk LAM. In TRO 3085 it is in fact the first LAM attempt. According to TRO 3085 the SHD-HK1 prototype was failure. The SHD-HK2 was better but was not mass produced due to many accidents. Some 20 SHD-HK2's were produced.

STG-A1 Stinger LAM Mark 1

The STG-A1 was the first LAM with an intermediate Air Mech mode.

WSP-100 Wasp LAM Mark 1

The WSP-100 has the WSP-100A variant according to TRO 3085. Record Sheets 3085 showed a post Mark II variant the WSP-100b. Centuries later the Word of Blake would experiment with Mark I LAMs. The WSP-110 Wasp LAM being a recreation of the WSP-100. Data from it and the PHX-HK1RB Phoenix Hawk LAM would lead to the development of the Spectral LAMs.

PHX-HK1 Phoenix Hawk LAM Mark 1

The PHX-HK1 has one variant the PHX-HK1R which replaces the right torso lasers with a PPC, which would be the basis for the Word of Blake PHX-1RB.

SCP-X1 Scorpion LAM

Like the Shadow Hawk LAM the Scorpion LAM was bondoggle failure attempt. Conversion between Mech and fighter modes are a problem. Its jumpjets are too underpowered. When a reentry atmospheric test was attempted it didn't much fly or fall like a brick it glided and crashed. Centuries later Defiance would find the plans and prototypes buried in Hesperus II. Even they gave up on it. The only bright side is that its suspension system was incorporated to the next generation Scorpion Battlemechs.

CPN-1X1 Champion LAM

The Champion LAM the heaviest LAM at 65 tons can transform between Mech and fighter. The problem it is not that maneuverable in fighter mode. The prototypes were later stored in New Dallas. The same planet where the New Dallas memory core was discovered leading to Age of War Retrotech being spread.

Spectral LAMs

Dubbed Spectral LAMs due to similar profile and wing designs to the Spectral Omnifighters of the Word of Blake. These showed up late during the Jihad surprising those they attacked with. Since LAMs were virtually extinct due to the Nova Cats blowing up the last LAM factory in Irece. Once factories in Gibson and Terra were destroyed the LAMs were rendered extinct again.

S-PW-1LAM Pwwka

S-YR-1LAM Yurei

S-WN-2LAM Waneta

The Waneta has one variant (S-WN-1LAM) that has replaced its improved jumpjets for bomb space. The Battle of Devil's Tower on Terra depicts a Waneta variant in flight.

With LAMs extinct you'd think transforming Mechs are no more right?

Clan Hell's Horses according to Field Report Era 3045 and TRO 3045 Clans produced transforming Quad Mech tanks called QuadVees. It has two pilots like the experimental Stinger LAM C and Phoenix Hawk LAM C of Clan Jade Falcon, difference is pilots don't fight each other. It has a driver and gunner. If one pilot is incapacitated or killed one pilot can control it. It sort of makes sense Hell's Horses would make these as don't worship the Mech like other Clans and prefer the combined arms tactics. Though Qudvess did not fare against Jade Falcons.

QuadVees

Arion

Cyllaros

Harapagos

Edited December 8, 2013 by RedWolf

[Knight26]

Interesting, but I really don't care for the designs, not aerodynamic at all, and the transformations are straight up transformerish with little regard to kibble, or engine placement.

[renegadeleader1]

Just to clear things up

1.It has never been established, not even by FASA in court that TCI ever had a legitimate license to give to them.

2.The Exosquad "Madcat" never made it into production, the lawsuit was triggered by playmates advertising its prototype at toy trade shows. Originally FASA and Playmates had been working together on a toyline based on the upcoming cartoon, but the deal fell through. FASA ended up pairing with Tyco to release their Battletech line. It was at this point Playmates promoted the prototype, and FASA took them to court.

3.Playmates then got Harmony Gold involved and counter-sued claiming FASA didn't own the rights to designs they said they did.

4.In the first suit the Judge ordered that Playmates didn't have any rights to the Heavy Assault E-frame(Madcat) and to stop using its image, there was not enough evidence to establish monetary damages and the case was dropped.

5.The counter-suit found that despite FASA claims that HG relinquished their rights to the designs by not bringing them to court untill 1996 was not enough as it was established that HG had provided a cease & desist since 1985 and had a contiuing correspondence with FASA since then to stop using the designs. After this FASA fearing a lawsuit voluntarily dropped all the licensed designs from their works.

Court records

Harmony Gold v. FASA

http://www.kaempen.org/alex/harmony_gold_v._fasa.html

Edited December 7, 2013 by renegadeleader1

[barurutor]

man, HG even messed with Battletech

I like Battletech as well although those LAM designs look real bad to me.

[anime52k8]

how do I knees? how do hips? how do I basic locomotion? etc. etc.

almost all of the battletech designs that aren't outright stolen from better things are garbage, especially the ones with wings.

that said the quadrupedal tanks are kind of cool.

[skullmilitia]

I had some of those Tyco ones from back in the day, were crap next to Exo-Squad toys.

[RedWolf]

how do I knees? how do hips? how do I basic locomotion? etc. etc.

almost all of the battletech designs that aren't outright stolen from better things are garbage, especially the ones with wings.

that said the quadrupedal tanks are kind of cool.

Well thinking about it the Mech mode is a weakness. A LAM can't tank hits like Battlemechs due to its complicated conversion systems. Armor makes it too heavy. Its purpose is recon and hitting behind enemy lines quickly and escape. Which is why LAM companies are assigned to Striker regiments.

So its best characteristic is the Air Mech mode and fighter mode. With Air Mech mode jumpjets, hovering and Wing in Ground Effect (WiGE) a LAM can avoid hits.

[Gubaba]

Redwolf, you should feel ashamed for showcasing so many poorly-designed robots in a single post.

[Mr March]

In my opinion, the designs are interesting failures. They are not good designs by any benchmark, but they are curious as an attempt to do something clearly different from Macross and new for Battletech. Thanks for posting. I also appreciated your history of licenses for Battletech. I knew some of it, but most was news to me. A very good read!

I always did like the concept and execution of Land-Air Mecha (LAMs) in the Battletech universe. They were an interesting design compromise contrasted against the heavier ground mecha of the series. The LAM was a light mecha with some versatile attack capability to strike where other battlemechs could not. But visually I'm not feeling most of these designs. The Stinger Mk I and Wasp Mk I fighter modes have some interesting ideas, but overall not memorable work. IMO, these LAM designs don't work for two reasons:

• As Battletech designs, they lack the great design work of the few iconic Battlemechs and lack that fugly walking-tank aesthetic done righ
• As transformable mecha, thing don't bring a helluva lot of anything new to the table and nothing aesthetically interesting as either fugly mecha or beautiful mecha. They are neither and hence nothing.

It's such a pitty Battletech didn't get more credit for some of the few mecha that were produced well. Granted while most of the designs not appropriated from other franchises were garbage, Battletech did have a small handful of great designs like the Mad Cat/Timber Wolf, Vulture/Mad Dog, Behemoth/Stone Rhino, Catapult, Stalker, etc. Oh, and a call out to MechMaster (aka Mech Zone) from DeviantArt, who appears to have some of his wonderful designs purchased as official for the Battletech franchise. The Bogen 1, Omega and Shadow Cat II are among my favorites of his. Check out his page on DeviantArt at http://mecha-zone.deviantart.com/ if you're interested.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Mr March

[renegadeleader1]

I had some of those Tyco ones from back in the day, were crap next to Exo-Squad toys.

I had the Hunchback, Bushwacker, and infiltrator, To be honest they were crap next to pretty much everything. Cheap chintzy plastic prone to breaking, poor limited articulation, ugly colors, stupid exploding gimics, and all around poor design. They look like a toy that would have been at home in the 70s than the 90s. Then again they would have looked inferior to the Shogun Warriors too.

[Mommar]

I happen to think the Pwwka, Yurei and Waneta are all pretty cool designs. Well, the first two make sense for the first two modes. The third one looks cool in all three. Though with those circular bits on the wings they might make more sense as some form of harrier instead.

[TehPW]

i finally got around the getting Era Report: 3145 when i took my daughter to Kenmore Comics in Akron the other day. I already had TRO 3145 so i'm already familiar with the concept of Clan Hell's Horses QuadVee. I agree, i'm not sure what to make of it until i actually try and fight one.

I know some of you like to bash Battletech but to me, its more than just funny looking 'mechs (some of you are out right racist if the 'mech isn't a Gundam LOL!), its the story behind all those funny ass 'mechs. Reading the Era report's attempt to unfluk the mediocre Mechwarrior: Dorkage storyline does it for me. If i ever wanted an anime made of a subject matter, it's battletech. Come on. You got a faction that just totally said FU to centuries of a style of warfare for this new No Mercy POV (Malvina's Jade Falcons and their perversion of the Mongal Doctrine), two factions that are getting their freak on a mutual enemy (The Draconis Combine and the Capellan Confederation vs a very battered Federated Suns), the kinda back in business [mostly] Free Worlds League, COMSTAR will probably be out of business if author fiat doesn't cure thier HPG woes...

holy crap. it really sucks to be mercs (RIP the ELH).... Yes i had a wonderful evening reading in bed.

[Mr March]

TehPW

It's been my experience most mecha fans find a favorite style and then a vocal minority of those hate on everything else. I don't understand it, but the internet tells a thousand tales of such fanboy vitriol. I sympathize with your Gundam comment, but keep in mind mecha fans on either side are just as much to blame. Battletech fans are equally guilty of arrogantly dismissing anime mecha as "rainbow-colored toy robots" every bit as much as anime fans ignorantly dismiss Battletech mecha as "fugly, art-less mecha".

At the risk of diving a little off topic, I feel artist intent and the written fiction are very important when judging designs. I find plenty of mecha fans never give a moment's consideration to the unique vision of an artist or take into account the fiction of the mecha story when judging a mecha design. They take a glance and then just write off the design.

Battletech has always pursued the "mecha as walking tank", mechanical design that produces the illusion of functional, real military hardware. No need for hands or other such anthropomorphic features, simply tank armor, guns and missiles set on a pair of legs. The fiction was about a galaxy at war ruled by nations long since past their apex, building the most straight forward, mass-produced weapons of destruction.

Evangelion designed "mecha as Demon (Oni)" with a thin, emaciated appearance in direct contrast to the bulky super robots and box-like Gundam designs that were dominant. Indeed, Evangelions were actually cyborgs and their appearance made a lot of sense within the context of the fiction, which was organic/spiritual symbiosis with religious pretensions.

Five Star Stories envisioned "mecha as Renaissance fare", mechanical design that resembled historical suits of armor but as robots. Five Star Stories fiction was that of a very long established world of high technology and vast riches where mecha were built as both weapons of war and as national treasures meant to project the power and prestige of the empire that built them.

In each case, context counts for a great deal and explains why mecha look the way they do. Each property presents a world in which their mecha make sense on a visual design level, if nothing else. That being said, I still don't think the LAM designs in this thread offer much for me to enjoy even compared to the best of Battletech. But I certainly understand the fiction and where the artists were coming from when building them.

[TehPW]

SPOT. ON. Sir. and they had gripping stories too, mate. FSS is a very good example of hmm... think sport teams and prestiege one gains from that. you also gain the contrivercy of the woman-bots (for the life of me cant remember their name type. Fatama's?) especially when they are treated as property (something i also thought that was supposed to be a undercutting dig on how japanesse woman where treated at the time FSS was written, too).

But you also forget that all these media forms support merchantising (especially Gundam, the benchpost that everything else on the planet measures to, when it comes to Toy and Hobby kits and other merchandise)

What to you make of Catalyst's efforts to 'salvage' the current storyline, when you consider the time gaps between the Jihad and Dark Age (as well as the book line that covers events up to 3145)?

Edited December 9, 2013 by TehPW

[TehPW]

back on the subject of LAMs:

my biggest grief is making sure i understand aerospace movement when it comes to Air-to-Air and Air-to-Ground combat. If your up on current errata for Total Warfare, they eliminated the make shots at hex 0909 and just made shots based on the flight path of the ASF and the attacker in question. thats one reason i've not made much effort to even use them in my son's home game. Using LAMs requires a special level of savy thats lacking in many players, considering for the longest time, even saying the word LAM at an official convention event would be like farting. loudly and smelly.

[hutch]

Redwolf, you should feel ashamed for showcasing so many poorly-designed robots in a single post.

LOL! +1

Seriously though, I enjoyed Battletech when it was all hex maps and cardboard, but I was never enamored of the designs that weren't stolen from other sources. Very clunky. Some of the clunkiness was 'believable' within the universe that they created, but by that same thread, transforming mechs wouldn't fit into that universe as well. Thanks for the narrative though, Redwolf.

[TehPW]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Eridani_Light_Horse_lawsuit

I'd dare discuss this on the BT forums but i'm loath to risk the ire of the TPTB over there. My question, based on the current cannon events in the Field Manual: 3145 and Era Report: 3145, was the destruction of the http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Eridani_Light_Horse the result of author and property fiat, in order to rid themselves of another painful legal subject?

[TehPW]

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/reviews/game-history.htm

Yeah, this subject link is for Star Trek but my curiosity is for Activision (specifically their Mechwarrior 2 series titles made in the mid 1990's)

Reading this article was eye-raising, the detail that Activision ordered the destruction of all unsold Star Fleet Command III discs. When Activision was done with the Battletech licence after Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, did they decree the same thing (perhaps to explain why the game disappeared) and why? Was it the same reason that they dropped ST's licence (because they accused Paramount of raping their own product to irrevalance?). i would ask this on CBT but i don't think TPTB would let the thread ride as is...

[Dynaman]

Redwolf, you should feel ashamed for showcasing so many poorly-designed robots in a single post.

I have to second that. I loved Battletech back in the day (still have almost everything from the second edition including the unseen mechs in cardboard standup form) but ALL of the original mech designs from the game were simply hideous.

The recently released pic of the new Marauder design is very nice though.

[spanner]

hmmm... dem all not so good. me no like.

[raptormesh]

The beauty of Battletech to me is more of the massed combined arms assault and politiks than the design of individual mechs. That each mech is a compromise in design and utility makes it a bit more attractive too. That said, the LAMs took it way too far and reeks of desperation in terms of design.

[JB0]

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/reviews/game-history.htm

Yeah, this subject link is for Star Trek but my curiosity is for Activision (specifically their Mechwarrior 2 series titles made in the mid 1990's)

Reading this article was eye-raising, the detail that Activision ordered the destruction of all unsold Star Fleet Command III discs. When Activision was done with the Battletech licence after Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries, did they decree the same thing (perhaps to explain why the game disappeared) and why? Was it the same reason that they dropped ST's licence (because they accused Paramount of raping their own product to irrevalance?). i would ask this on CBT but i don't think TPTB would let the thread ride as is...

Destruction of unsold merchandise would be to get the tax writeoff on unsellable merchandise.

It's not an uncommon practice in the video game industry, or other media markets for that matter. There's fine print in novels and CDs warning you that if the disk case was cut or drilled/book cover removed that the product was likely written off as destroyed and no one got paid for it.

In some cases it's a notable practice for the sheer scope of the destruction, however, as in this case.

I think the second most infamous instance is Dreamcast port of Half-Life. As the Dreamcast's footing in the american market eroded, it rapidly became obvious that DC HL was never going to be profitable if released.

The game came within a stone's throw of actually seeing a release anyways. Close enough that the cheat book DID make it to store shelves(and I imagine they were livid when they found out the game DIDN'T). The DC-exclusive content Half-Life: Blue Shift would eventually be backported to the PC.

Due to the sudden eleventh-hour cancellation, it's highly probable an entire print run was completed and then destroyed for a tax writeoff. *

The MOST infamous instance, of course, is the Atari ET crushing, which is also notable for how badly it gets misreported, but that's another topic.

*Tangentally, this could very well be why no copies of the US version of Macross VF-X2 have ever surfaced, despite the game being known to have been VERY near to release from the existence of magazine ads with a finalized ESRB rating, at a time when ads were for product on shelves, not preorders.

Same is likely true of Megaman Battle & Chase, but that veers even further off-topic.

To drag this all kicking and screaming back to the point... it's highly likely that the final runs of the Mechwarrior games were destroyed. Particularly as I seem to recall there being a rights transfer, and any inventory Activision had after that transfer COULDN'T legally be offered up for sale.