Vf-1 Super missiles- scaling drawings

[Andras]

I've been messing around scaling the drawings of the VF-1 Super from the Spacewings Masterfile.

In SDFM Hikaru fired 12 missiles from each arm pod (6 pairs each) I took an image from the VF1 masterfile to see if it was feasible or anime magic

There's two types of arm pods. The one with the smaller missiles staggered at the front, and the one with bigger missiles that are even on the front.

So there's room for 12 missiles if they are 200mm dia x 750mm long.

The one with bigger missiles seems to have room for at least 5 missiles of 350mm dia x 1m long.

then, I wanted to see how many 20cm x 70cm missiles can fit in the boosterpods. Turns out, quite a few.

scale 150px=1m; the scale bar turned out to be exactly 20cm (scaled) in thickness so that made it really easy for me.

The exit ports are drawn a little too small at 22cm x 59cm

Both exit ports could stand to be shifted down slightly but I can work with them where they are.

With a full 3x4x2 magazine, feeding the exit ports from the outside edges won't work, but you can feed them from the center. Each horizontal 3x2 (6 missile) layer feeds one exit port, taking from the center missile, with the outer missiles feeding into the center. Each missile feeds forwards and then shifts left or right at an angle to meet the exit port. With one missile staged in each exit port, you can fit 28 missiles in each pod.

If there's no center column of missiles then the outer rows shift inwards and the exit ports are fed from the outer rows, for 20 missiles with one staged in each port. This number is supported by one of the old models which I used as the basis for this exercise: 2 missiles on each side backed by 2 columns of 4.

Thoughts?

[Roy Focker]

I'm pretty sure there's old internal line art that shows how many missiles are in the fast packs.

3 per arms I think and about 20 per back booster

[Beltane70]

There is the Strike Valkyrie cutaway poster from the gold DYRL book that shows the super parts in detail.

[Seto Kaiba]

I've been messing around scaling the drawings of the VF-1 Super from the Spacewings Masterfile.

In SDFM Hikaru fired 12 missiles from each arm pod (6 pairs each) I took an image from the VF1 masterfile to see if it was feasible or anime magic

There's two types of arm pods. The one with the smaller missiles staggered at the front, and the one with bigger missiles that are even on the front.

With a full 3x4x2 magazine, feeding the exit ports from the outside edges won't work, but you can feed them from the center. Each horizontal 3x2 (6 missile) layer feeds one exit port, taking from the center missile, with the outer missiles feeding into the center. Each missile feeds forwards and then shifts left or right at an angle to meet the exit port. With one missile staged in each exit port, you can fit 28 missiles in each pod.

If there's no center column of missiles then the outer rows shift inwards and the exit ports are fed from the outer rows, for 20 missiles with one staged in each port. This number is supported by one of the old models which I used as the basis for this exercise: 2 missiles on each side backed by 2 columns of 4.

Thoughts?

's an interesting analysis, to be sure... but if Hikaru really fired that many missiles from his arm launchers, that's more than the launchers contain by a factor of two. According to the official material and cutaways, the NP-AR-01 packs only contain three missiles and the NP-BP-01's HMMP-02 launcher pack contains twelve (three per port). Master File tries to rationalize this and a few other eccentricities displayed by various toys, citing missile counts of 20 for the NP-BP-01 in later service with a newer model of missile, and presenting an alternate wing design with three pylon stations instead of two.

I'm pretty sure there's old internal line art that shows how many missiles are in the fast packs.

3 per arms I think and about 20 per back booster

Yeah, that was the big cutaway from the Gold Book, IIRC.

[Mr March]

I'm pretty sure we had a thread about this a long time back. I think it was generally agreed the VF-1J Super Valkyrie had 30 micro-missiles in total; 12 per each booster (24) plus 3 per ventral/arm packs (6) for 30 in total. In addition to the cutaway chart on my website, that count agrees with the anime as well, since Hikaru destroyed 30 Regulds with his VF-1 Super when it made it's debut, which is one Reguld per micro-missile. I'm unsure if there has ever been a definitive official word on the loadout, but I think 30 is about as accurate as you can get without.

[Andras]

Well here are the shots of Hikaru firing the missiles from the arm pods:

Max and Miliya fire at least 16 missiles from the boosters in the big battle, firing 4 volleys of 4 missiles.

I've seen the 3 arm-missile/12 booster missile VF-1 Strike art work:

Those are the arm pods with the bigger missiles that are even on the end. The other pods have smaller missiles that are staggered. The difference is easy to explain, when DYRL was 'filmed' in the 2030s they were using different missile pods.

There have been so much line art and diagrams published, can you really point to just one item and say this is the end-all, be-all of Macross? First I wanted to see if it was even possible to fit 12 missiles into the arms and 20 missiles into each booster. Turns out you can. Then it turns out you can actually fit 24-28 into each booster.

The SDFM animation shows the Armored VF launching 8 missiles per chest pod, VF-1 Spacewings Masterfile shows two types of chest pods, 1 with 8 missiles and 1 with 5 missiles. I don't see why there can't be two versions, one with 8 early (SDFM) micromissiles, and a later one with 5 bigger missiles (DYRL)

[Mr March]

Well, like I said this is all just fan talk because as far as I know there has never been a definitive official missile count. So one guess is as good as another I suppose. I only prefer the 30 micro-missile figure because the coincidence of the kill count declared in the SDF Macross anime and the DYRL cutaway diagram matching seems a pretty solid theory taken together. I will say it doesn't make sense that the mecha of DYRL (circa 2030) would have fewer missiles than earlier variable fighters, but that's just me. Perhaps the new DeAgostini Macross Chronicle will provide some new figures.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well here are the shots of Hikaru firing the missiles from the arm pods:

Max and Miliya fire at least 16 missiles from the boosters in the big battle, firing 4 volleys of 4 missiles.

I've seen the 3 arm-missile/12 booster missile VF-1 Strike art work:

Those are the arm pods with the bigger missiles that are even on the end. The other pods have smaller missiles that are staggered. The difference is easy to explain, when DYRL was 'filmed' in the 2030s they were using different missile pods.

There have been so much line art and diagrams published, can you really point to just one item and say this is the end-all, be-all of Macross? First I wanted to see if it was even possible to fit 12 missiles into the arms and 20 missiles into each booster. Turns out you can. Then it turns out you can actually fit 24-28 into each booster.

The SDFM animation shows the Armored VF launching 8 missiles per chest pod, VF-1 Spacewings Masterfile shows two types of chest pods, 1 with 8 missiles and 1 with 5 missiles. I don't see why there can't be two versions, one with 8 early (SDFM) micromissiles, and a later one with 5 bigger missiles (DYRL)

I'd have to go back and go over the footage myself to be sure of your count, but the fact is that the original Macross series does contain a number of inconsistencies in its animation... most even more glaring than this potentially is. Officially, the missile count for the VF-1 Valkyrie's FAST pack sits at 30... 12 in each HMMP-02 launcher in the booster packs, and 3 in each arm. Using Master File as a yardstick will always be a dodgy idea because it carries a clear and entirely unambiguous notation stating that the contents are not part of the official Macross setting on the credits page of each of the five books printed to date.

Mind you, the Master File books do assert that, by the time Do You Remember Love? was filmed in-universe, VF-1's were using a different armament arrangement in their FAST packs. The problem is that it asserts that the missile count went up, not down, thanks to changes in the packs and a new, smaller model of missile (HMM-03). Another problem with your assumptions WRT missile capacity is that these launchers are not empty space, their innards contain (per Master File and the art) other things like sensors, structural reinforcement to connect the detachable option packs to the actual booster, and so on. That all takes up space, as does the feed system and individual magazines for the launch ports in the boosters. The dialogue supports the official line art count of twelve missiles per booster, while Master File states twenty a side for the improved, post-war models, which was something that a fair number of toys also did.

EDIT: The two configurations that we've seen for the internals of the HMMP-02 missile pack and/or what Master File VF-1 Vol.2 calls the HMMMP-02 (extra M? Vol.1 uses HMMP-02, as does Chronicle) are four straight missile containers holding three of the HMM-01 each, and an almost-identical configuration on toys in which there's a second row of two missiles on the top and bottom of each side, feeding into the nearest launcher port, giving a configuration (from top to bottom, one side) of 2-3-3-2. The middle of the pack seems to be filled in with hardware in both cases.

Well, like I said this is all just fan talk because as far as I know there has never been a definitive official missile count. So one guess is as good as another I suppose. I only prefer the 30 micro-missile figure because the coincidence of the kill count declared in the SDF Macross anime and the DYRL cutaway diagram matching seems a pretty solid theory taken together. I will say it doesn't make sense that the mecha of DYRL (circa 2030) would have fewer missiles than earlier variable fighters, but that's just me. Perhaps the new DeAgostini Macross Chronicle will provide some new figures.

Thus far, I do not believe that the revised edition of Macross Chronicle has offered commentary beyond what the original edition did on the subject... though Master File has proved surprisingly helpful, as noted above.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Seto Kaiba

[sketchley]

Let's not forget that the writers of the Master File books indicate that the info in the books are not part of the official setting (ref: dotted-line box on the credits page of the books).

[Andras]

Well, like I said this is all just fan talk because as far as I know there has never been a definitive official missile count. So one guess is as good as another I suppose. I only prefer the 30 micro-missile figure because the coincidence of the kill count declared in the SDF Macross anime and the DYRL cutaway diagram matching seems a pretty solid theory taken together. I will say it doesn't make sense that the mecha of DYRL (circa 2030) would have fewer missiles than earlier variable fighters, but that's just me. Perhaps the new DeAgostini Macross Chronicle will provide some new figures.

I don't think I've seen micromissiles even launched singly at battlepods. AMM1s, yes, but not Micros. Getting 30 kills from 30 missiles doesn't seem to go with what is shown in DYRL.

For example, in the opening fight of DYRL, Hikaru and Max fire multiple missiles at each target. Hik first fires 10 from the underwing pods at 3 battlepods, Max fires 8-9 from the boosters at 3 pods, and then Hik fires a full load of 8 at a solitary pod (which shoots down the missiles and is killed by the gunpod)

As for fewer missiles later on, those missiles in the arm pods are much larger and I would assume more powerful. Maybe the Renegade mecha of the era required more powerful missiles.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think I've seen micromissiles even launched singly at battlepods. AMM1s, yes, but not Micros. Getting 30 kills from 30 missiles doesn't seem to go with what is shown in DYRL.

For example, in the opening fight of DYRL, Hikaru and Max fire multiple missiles at each target. Hik first fires 10 from the underwing pods at 3 battlepods, Max fires 8-9 from the boosters at 3 pods, and then Hik fires a full load of 8 at a solitary pod (which shoots down the missiles and is killed by the gunpod)

As for fewer missiles later on, those missiles in the arm pods are much larger and I would assume more powerful. Maybe the Renegade mecha of the era required more powerful missiles.

Eh... remember, the status of Macross: Do You Remember Love? is that of an in-universe movie. Naturally, as such, it would have taken license with the performance of the VF-1's weapons to make things more dramatic/cinematic. That's like using Top Gun as a yardstick for approximating just how effective modern fighter-carried weaponry is. However, the Macross Chronicle mechanic sheets for the VF-1 affirm that the cutaway schematic from the Gold Book IS accurate to the fighter, and the Super Dimension Fortress Macross television series is considered by same to be the "more correct" version of Space War 1... which argues strongly in favor of the show's 30 shots, 30 kills statement.

You've based your theory here around the art, and only the art, in Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.2. The problems with this choice are threefold.

First, as sketchley and I have both pointed out, Master File's contents are not part of the official Macross setting (the books say that much themselves).

Second, you're mixing assumptions by basing your missile measurements on the smaller HMM-03 micro-missile, which was not in use during the events of the series... Volume 2 is for the VF-1's service history ten years after the first volume was published. As noted in Volume 1 (refer to page 049), the VF-1's of the first space war were using the older, larger HMM-01 missile and (possibly) a different model of option pack for their NP-BP-01 OMS/RCS (Vol.1 calls it HMMP-02, Vol.2 calls it HMMMP-02). If these are, in fact, the same launcher system then the increase in the capacity that Master File identifies is likely down to the smaller size of the HMM-03 used in later decades. Also, you've mistakenly assumed that the missiles in the NP-AR-01 are the same model used in the NP-BP-01's HMMP-02 launcher... Master File and the official line art indicate that the arm packs take an entirely different model of missile. Mind you, the official stats seem to indicate that there is no difference between the series and DYRL arm packs that Master File has inexplicably drawn at two different sizes...

Third, your conclusion that missiles got larger and less numerous goes against the text of the (admittedly non-canon) source you're basing all your conclusions on... which asserts that the missile count went up, not down, and that smaller missiles with better warheads were a factor in that.