Why does the feet of the SV-51 look so close in design to the VF-27?

[YF-29 Durandal]

The SV-51 in the Macross universe is supposed to be an early version of veritech type mecha and the VF-27 is a late design so why does their feet look so similar?

[Major Focker]

why would it be so strange? designers borrow from earlier designs all the time. in fashion for example, designers take cues from the 60's every now and then, and up to the present. that's roughly the same time difference between the SV-51 and the VF-27. i expect 2 decades from now fashion designers will still be using polka dots as a design element.

if designs were never used again, we might have never been blessed with miniskirts and bikinis in our generation

Edited October 12, 2013 by Major Focker

[VF-18S Hornet]

yep the Mustang, Camaro and the Challenger for example. So why not the VF-27 and the SV-51, of yeah Veritect is a Robotech word get it right. and the SV-51 is not a Valkyrie. Don't know the official name for the Anti-U.N. variable mech.

[YF-29 Durandal]

why would it be so strange? designers borrow from earlier designs all the time. in fashion for example, designers take cues from the 60's every now and then, and up to the present. that's roughly the same time difference between the SV-51 and the VF-27. i expect 2 decades from now fashion designers will still be using polka dots as a design element.

if designs were never used again, we might have never been blessed with miniskirts and bikinis in our generation

I more meant that the feet of the SV-51 looks too advanced to be an early type veritech mecha.

[technoblue]

It could very well be that during the unification wars that the Anti-UN scientists and engineers had a better understanding of the alien technology than their UN counterparts. This also shows up in real history during wartime when there is a technology gap between two opposing sides.

[Kyp Durron]

I more meant that the feet of the SV-51 looks too advanced to be an early type veritech mecha.

"Veritech" is the term used in the Robotech series, the proper term in Super Dimensional Fortress Macross (Where Robotech was ripped off from) is "Valkyrie".

-Kyp

[YF-29 Durandal]

"Veritech" is the term used in the Robotech series, the proper term in Super Dimensional Fortress Macross (Where Robotech was ripped off from) is "Valkyrie".

-Kyp

Ah, ok.

[xrentonx]

Ah, ok.

...or, since this is an Anti-UN fighter, just call it a variable fighter. VF is pretty much the catch-all term anyway even though everyone says "Valk" around here.

"Veritech" is a no-no here at Macrossworld

Edited October 12, 2013 by xrentonx

[mechaninac]

I like to look at it this way: In Universe, the designers of the VF-27 "rediscovered or reinvented" the feet configuration of the SV-51; it's not that the SV-51's design was any more advanced or revolutionary than the VF-0/VF-1, but since the UN side of the Unification Wars came out on top, the technology employed by the Anti-UN block nations fell into disuse. Later on, engineers from General Galaxy (YF-21 and VF-22 -- both have 3-paddled main thrusters) and Macross Galaxy VFDA (VF-27 -- 3-toed feet/main thrusters) would revisit some of those designs for their latest variable fighters. Also, the YF-24, and consequently the VF-25, VF-27, and even the newer YF-29, show quite a bit of design lineage to the SV-51 in many respects.

Edited October 12, 2013 by mechaninac

[anime52k8]

The SV-51 had three-toed feet because it made it look more like an angry predatory bird while it's in Gerwalk mode, therefore making it look more evil. The VF-27 therefore has 3 toed feet (and is also purple) because it's supposed to look evil and those traits have established precedence of being features of evil.

[YF-29 Durandal]

The SV-51 had three-toed feet because it made it look more like an angry predatory bird while it's in Gerwalk mode, therefore making it look more evil. The VF-27 therefore has 3 toed feet (and is also purple) because it's supposed to look evil and those traits have established precedence of being features of evil.

Maybe so but it's a little bit strange that the SV-51 looks so much more advanced than the VF-0A / VF-0S.

[raptormesh]

Maybe so but it's a little bit strange that the SV-51 looks so much more advanced than the VF-0A / VF-0S.

I disagree, the 51 looks like a flanker derivative as much as the 0 is from the tomcat. They are both massive and look cumbersome. I'm not sure how by having three toes it looks more advanced.

[David Hingtgen]

The SV-51 had three-toed feet because it made it look more like an angry predatory bird while it's in Gerwalk mode, therefore making it look more evil. The VF-27 therefore has 3 toed feet (and is also purple) because it's supposed to look evil and those traits have established precedence of being features of evil.

This. That type of foot, and "wing-mounted engines" (boosters in the case of the Sv-51) are now the established "bad-guy" cues for valks.

Any future "evil" valkyrie is almost certain to have 3-toed feet, and 4 engines. And probably have some purple/fuschia. (remember, we saw Nora's before Ivanov's, and I think Nora had more screen time, too)

[anime52k8]

This. That type of foot, and "wing-mounted engines" (boosters in the case of the Sv-51) are now the established "bad-guy" cues for valks.

Any future "evil" valkyrie is almost certain to have 3-toed feet, and 4 engines. And probably have some purple/fuschia. (remember, we saw Nora's before Ivanov's, and I think Nora had more screen time, too)

And the thing people tend to forget is that 3-piece feet, mid wing engines and purple paint jobs have been standard features of bad-guy valks since Macross 7:

[lancalot]

I disagree, the 51 looks like a flanker derivative as much as the 0 is from the tomcat. They are both massive and look cumbersome. I'm not sure how by having three toes it looks more advanced.

totally agree ... i think the sv-51 was based on the flanker russian fighter planes....as to the VF0 the america tomcats...

[Major Focker]

what david and anime52k8 said. i think it's simply due to storytelling cues/aesthetics. similarly, the lead will always have red and sempais will always have yellow.

if you want to go technical, i really don't think 3 toes are necessarily more advanced looking or that they actually confer better technical benefits. for example do planes with canards always look more advanced than those without? some would think so, but an equal number would likely think they look cludgy. and that balance of opinion is likely very different depending on other aspects of the planes in question. which leads me to my next point, other aspects of the design (engine output for one) probably impact its performance much more than the number of toes. and each design element is selected to be harmonious/or traded off with other design options such that they achieve the desired/required performance envelope, which itself varies from plane to plane depending on the role it's supposed to play. the F-22 for example does away with canards in favor of thrust vectoring, while other designs opted to go for canards (sometimes in combination with forward sweep main wings), and some do both canards and more limited thrust vectoring. all are equally valid design choices but ultimately, how they meet their respective performance envelopes depends on how these choices play off with other design aspects of the plane. if you ask me, the YF-23 looks more advanced, and in some ways it probably is, but ultimately it lost out to the more (relatively) conservative looking YF-22.

if you want to go the evolutionary route, look at ostriches and horses. there was a time when horses' ancestors had spread out toes. over time, the advantage of stability and traction from this toe configuration was phased out because having 4 limbs proved sufficient to compensate and made for more efficient sustained running. ostriches kept the toes because the stability aspect was vital for a 2-limb configuration and the traction proved more useful for making quick dashes rather than long distance running. an ostrich can easily out dash a horse, but the horse can maintain a faster sustained speed. their designs diverged but remain equally valid for their respective needs and environment.

[Faisaijin]

either Kawamori loves the SV51 or just getting lazy.

[xrentonx]

...or maybe many artists use the same design cues in a lot of their work? It's certainly not a foreign concept and I wouldn't describe it as "lazy."

[Ahab]

I don't think Kawamori is all that concerned about continuity in the Macross Universe ( in terms of design). It seems to me that he regards SDF Macross the way George Lucas regards the Original Star Wars Trilogy. Thsy are both drawing from the now in terms of new content and aesthetics. That's why Macross Zero looks out of place next to SDF Macross. Otherwise the designers of Macross Zero would need to put themselves in the mindset of military designers from the 50's, 60's and 70's to envision what a progressive design of the late 1990's would look like... IMO, a more retro look would have added a unique visual interest to the series.

[YF-29 Durandal]

And the thing people tend to forget is that 3-piece feet, mid wing engines and purple paint jobs have been standard features of bad-guy valks since Macross 7:

Mid wing engines... does that mean that the YF-29 is an evil valkyrie?

[wmkjr]

Mid wing engines... does that mean that the YF-29 is an evil valkyrie?

No,it doesn't meet the criteria. It doesn't have three piece feet and not purple j/k!

[Mommar]

No,it doesn't meet the criteria. It doesn't have three piece feet and not purple j/k!

And not to mention that Frontier also establishes that Hero Valks can have boosters mid wing via additional super packs, tornado packs, etc... (if you ignore that both the VF-4 and 14 also have mid wing boosters.)

[Mechapilot77]

obvious answer....they were designed by the same guy, kawamori. also frontier was the first series after Zero so more or less there is some continuity in design. the VF-27 is clearly a design evolution from SV-51. Heck pretended my SV-51 as a VF-27 for a while. Also, look at the head of a VF-25F, does it not more closely resemble the head of a VF-0S moreso than a VF-1S, or anything from M7? i think its just where the designer was in his design aethtic at that time...granted i'm sure certain aspects of the continuity definitely influenced some decisions (for example the VF-171 derived from the VF-17 because teh VF-25 was too much a a hero looking valk to be used as cannon fodder) but sometimes the simplest most obvious answer (i should say oftentimes) is the actual answer.

[YF-29 Durandal]

obvious answer....they were designed by the same guy, kawamori. also frontier was the first series after Zero so more or less there is some continuity in design. the VF-27 is clearly a design evolution from SV-51. Heck pretended my SV-51 as a VF-27 for a while. Also, look at the head of a VF-25F, does it not more closely resemble the head of a VF-0S moreso than a VF-1S, or anything from M7? i think its just where the designer was in his design aethtic at that time...granted i'm sure certain aspects of the continuity definitely influenced some decisions (for example the VF-171 derived from the VF-17 because teh VF-25 was too much a a hero looking valk to be used as cannon fodder) but sometimes the simplest most obvious answer (i should say oftentimes) is the actual answer.

Yeah your explanation seems to be the answer to why the SV-51 from 2008 shares strong similarities with the VF-27 from 2059.

[Mommar]

Yeah your explanation seems to be the answer to why the SV-51 from 2008 shares strong similarities with the VF-27 from 2059.

Sarcasm? Because the SV-51 was designed around '99/2000 by Kawamori and the VF-27 was designed around 2007 by Kawamori as well.

[YF-29 Durandal]

Sarcasm? Because the SV-51 was designed around '99/2000 by Kawamori and the VF-27 was designed around 2007 by Kawamori as well.

Nope no sarcasm.

[Mechapilot77]

Sarcasm? Because the SV-51 was designed around '99/2000 by Kawamori and the VF-27 was designed around 2007 by Kawamori as well.

where are you getting the 99/2000 number? IIRC, macross zero came out in 2003...just 5 years before the release of frontier. i have no knowledge of when those designs were penned but my guess is about 5 or less years apart more or less coinciding with the development stages of those 2 series/OVA.

[sketchley]

because teh VF-25 was too much a a hero looking valk to be used as cannon fodder) but sometimes the simplest most obvious answer (i should say oftentimes) is the actual answer.

Correction: the VF-19 was supposed to be used as the cannon fodder Valkyrie, but because it looked too much like the VF-25 (the hero Valkyrie), the VF-17 derivative VF-171 was used.

[Mommar]

where are you getting the 99/2000 number? IIRC, macross zero came out in 2003...just 5 years before the release of frontier. i have no knowledge of when those designs were penned but my guess is about 5 or less years apart more or less coinciding with the development stages of those 2 series/OVA.

I thought it was turn of the millennium. Whoops. But it serves my case even better.

[close313]

Don't you guys feel that 25, 27, 29 are inspired from the SV-51 in general? I mean the fuselage section transforms/folds exactly the same way as SV-51's not just the 27. They just made 27 have the 3 toes and it seems more alike to the SV-51 than the rest.

[Scyla]

Correction: the VF-19 was supposed to be used as the cannon fodder Valkyrie, but because it looked too much like the VF-25 (the hero Valkyrie), the VF-17 derivative VF-171 was used.

Since the VF-171 was retrofitted to the lanky design of the Frontier show (opposed to chunky design of the VF-17 from Macross 7) it makes me wonder how a VF-191 (so to speak) would've looked like.

[Kurisama]

VF-191... Now there's a thought...

[Scyla]

VF-191... Now there's a thought...

As long as I get credited for it....

[anime52k8]

VF-191... Now there's a thought...

That would be so expensive, printing an entire 1/60 valk toy through shapeways.

[Reïvaj]

The now old Yamato YF-19's could be recycled.