How is Alclad paint?

[Jefuemon]

I recently found a source for Alclad II paint in Japan. However, it seems a bit pricy. Is it worth buying a couple of bottles? And if I do, what do you thin it with for airbrushing? Do they have their own thinner for that? Thanks!

[Benson13]

I'd hit up WMCheng. I'm pretty sure he used it on his VF-25 models.

[anime52k8]

Alclad II is like magic in a bottle. it's expensive and tricky to work with, but totally worth it because the results when applied properly are absolutely beautiful. As for thinner, Alclad does not need to be thinned, it's only meant to be used through an airbrushed so it's bottled thin enough to be used that way strait. It is Lacquer based though so for cleaning you can use most any lacquer thinner and it should be applied over lacquer primer and base coats).

Another thing to be aware of with alclad is that how it turns out is highly dependent on the color and finish of the surface you apply it over.

[Noyhauser]

Jefuemon

First off, I did a small write up that touches on this in the newbie thread that might help:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=38794&p=1047280

I've used it on about every model I've built in the past five years, and at least 20+ pure NMF aircraft. Its the best NMF product with two possible exceptions (I'll get to them later). The paint is awesome, but to get the most out of it you should probably get about four different shades: Duraluminum, White aluminum, Stainless steel, Jet exhaust. With those four you can basically do everything you need to. Duraluminum and white aluminum allow you to do panel variations (and you can mix the two.) Jet exhaust allows you to do engines... but it can be mixed with other paints to give a pale burnt appearance. Stainless steel is good for really shiny aircraft, like the century series. If you want a fifth one, get the dull aluminum... it has a very different appearance to the other paints that can't be replicated. You can also buff it with Tamiya fine compound or a cotton rag to give different appearances.

As the bottle suggests, 17 PSI is ideal... I try to do it in one or two passes, rather than three or more. It goes on extremely easily, its really the preparation phase that requires the most attention.

For basic application its best to purchase Tamiya TS-14 Gloss black from the rattle can as your base. You can decant it and spray it out of the AB if needed, or just go straight out of the can. I use different base colours though... my recent favorite one is Model Master british racing green. Whatever you do, do not buy the alclad gloss black base... its crap. Another option would be to mix Mr Surfacer with gloss Mr Color black. Ensure that if you use enamels as your base that the paint has fully cured before applying alclad; usually a day to a week depending on the paint.

The only two products that might be as good or better are SNJ's products.... and Mr Super Metallic series. SNJ is a bit academic because its harder to get than Alclad... but Super Metallic might be as good, I've just never tried spraying it over a large surface. I really try to hoard it and only use it for small details because I only have three bottles and I had someone bring it via airplane from Japan.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Noyhauser

[Jefuemon]

Thanks for the advice! Jet Exhaust was one of the colors I was thinking about, also thinking about gunmetal. I have seen some of the Mr Super Metallic series around, might grab some of those next time I come across them.

Nice to know that it comes airbrush ready, and I've got plenty of home-improvement store lacquer thinner for my Mr. Color cleanups.

[Checkmate]

Alclad always amazes me when I spray it for the first time. it really is like "magic in a bottle".

[anime52k8]

Mr. Super metallic might be a cheaper option if you're actually in japan. Here though it's $10~$15 per bottle plus shipping from online retailers versus $8~$9 a bottle at my local hobby shop for Alclad.

BTW, the thing I like about Alclad gunmetal is that it actually looks like the surface finish of a gun. it's not just generic dark grey metallic "gunmetal". it's actually a very dark blue-gray matte finish.

[Jefuemon]

Yeah, I'm actually in Japan. There's a Volks shop in town, and they have an excellent supply of paints and what-not. (kits, not so much)

Have to swing by, and see what they've got. They might actually carry Alclad, so that would save me from ordering it through Platz. Not that ordering from Platz is a bad thing, I just ordered some 1/32 scale VF-101 decals through them.

[grail]

Agreed. Alclads are great. I feel like it's not SO much about the gloss black undercoat, so much as the "gloss" part. Alclads like to go on glossy surfaces. Real thin.. multiple coats. Also get the "alclad airbrush cleaner" It's really helpful when breaking down your brush for cleaning. As for thinner, these are pre mixed and fly out of your ab very smoothly. Shake well.

"Magnesium" and " Pale burn metal" are a couple of my fav colors too. As well as steel, aluminium's, chrome, etc..

Scalehobbyist has a good selection. Online purchase.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

[wm cheng]

Hey, I just saw this thread today (even though its old - July is not a good month for me, I'm pretty much off-line with the great weather and both my daughter and my birthdays together).

YES!!! I can't recommend Alclad stuff enough - but only if you airbrush. It is pre-thinned and must be airbrushed. The key to this metalizer is surface prep - it needs to be ultra glass smooth. Actually if you ever sprayed it onto glass (as I have accidentally done onto the glass bottles - it looks absolutely amazing). Sand, putty, Mr. Surfacer, primer and sanding again and the results are spectacular! But if you rush it, every little tiny imperfection and flaw will telegraph through and be magnified. That's why they recommend a glossy undercoat as it fills in the slight sanding imperfections and creates a smooth surface. Word of warning (I had to find out the hard way and ruined my Bandai Yamato 2199 Cosmo Zero model!) the Alclad Gloss Black undercoat is NOT a lacquer, despite it saying it is everywhere on the bottle, it refers to the rest of the Alclad metalizer line which is a lacquer, the Gloss Black is actually an enamel and will react to any oil based paints even after an Alclad metalizer has been sprayed over it (the Alclad metalizers are so thin that they do not form a sufficient skin layer protection to the enamel based underlying black paint). This is the reason I've switched to the Flory's Pro-modeller's wash for my panel lines (as its water/clay based and is completely inert as compared to my previous varsol/artist oil washes).

Good luck and try some, you'll end up buying the entire colour line (however they've changed their STEEL - its not as smooth as it used to be, its a little bit sparkly where you see the metallic flakes). Can't wait to see some of your work with this stuff!

[anime52k8]

I've had good results with Tamiya spray lacquers as a base coat.

[Jefuemon]

Oh yeah, I've already picked up a few bottles, and used burnt iron on the inside of the engines of the Phantom I'm building now. Yep, looks just like metal that gotten very hot!

[MacrossJunkie]

Rise from the grave!

Sorry for necro'ing this thread, but I was wondering if the Alclad II Gloss Klear Kote was actually lacquer or enamel. The bottle label says lacquer, but the title in that link says enamel. I'm getting the impression from other places that it's mineral spirit based, but I just wanted to see if anyone knew for sure as it seems rather misleading.

Just like this Alclad II Aqua Gloss. The label and title says lacquer, but elsewhere I'm reading it's acrylic based? That's as far apart between types as you can get!

[mickyg]

It all gets very confusing. And Acrylic and lacquer aren't as far apart as you might think - take Tamiya "Acrylic" paints for instance. Apparently they're a lacquer, but can be thinned with water. Same for Gunze Aquous paints. Both can even be thinned with their lacquer thinners and even mixed with other Tamiya or Gunze "lacquers" (The Gunze "Mr Color" line, for instance).

I also have a bottle of automotive type clear lacquer in a spray aerosol can, that clearly states: "Acrylic" on the outside. So Acrylic and Lacquer aren't something you should automatically assume are mutually exclusive. Like I said, confusing...

My experience with the clear from Alclad is purely from others' stories. The aqua is definitely water thinnable. Like future, in many ways. The Alclad Klear Kote is not something I'm sure about at all.

This looks like a good place to start though:
http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61744-alclad-klear-kote-gloss-120ml/

Sounds like it's enamel.

Edited July 29, 2015 by mickyg

[wm cheng]

All I know is the Alclad gloss black primer is enamel - or reactive to mineral spirits (even though it says lacquer like the Alclad) - remember my Cosmo Zero that was distroyed when I tried an oil panel line wash and the turpentine when through the Alclad lacquer (which I guess was too thin) and attacked the gloss black primer beneath. That's when I switched to the Flory Pro Modeller's wash which is just inert clay and water - so its safe for every base coat.

My guess is its enamel as its supposed to cover over lacquer, if it was as hot as lacquer, wouldn't you think it might attack the metalized lacquer base coat which is super thin and delicate? I really have no idea though - just my 2 cents.

[MacrossJunkie]

It all gets very confusing. And Acrylic and lacquer aren't as far apart as you might think - take Tamiya "Acrylic" paints for instance. Apparently they're a lacquer, but can be thinned with water. Same for Gunze Aquous paints. Both can even be thinned with their lacquer thinners and even mixed with other Tamiya or Gunze "lacquers" (The Gunze "Mr Color" line, for instance).

I also have a bottle of automotive type clear lacquer in a spray aerosol can, that clearly states: "Acrylic" on the outside. So Acrylic and Lacquer aren't something you should automatically assume are mutually exclusive. Like I said, confusing...

My experience with the clear from Alclad is purely from others' stories. The aqua is definitely water thinnable. Like future, in many ways. The Alclad Klear Kote is not something I'm sure about at all.

This looks like a good place to start though:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/61744-alclad-klear-kote-gloss-120ml/

Sounds like it's enamel.

Interesting... that really jumbles my understanding of Acrylic vs Enamel vs Lacquer paints, at least as they are commonly used in the hobby paint sense.

For the typical hobby paint classifications as sold by the big names in hobby paints, I've always seen it as :

lacquer - uses toxic lacquer thinners. "hot" and reacts with plastics and should not be placed over enamels or acrylics.

enamels - uses mineral spirit based thinners. not at "hot" as lacquer, use cautiously over acrylic, safely used over other enamels and lacquer. Very durable.

acrylic - water based, can be thinned with stuff like windex or various types of alcohols or other commercially available acrylic thinners. Can be used safely over enamel or lacquers. Easily scratched compared to the other types.

I looked up the definition of lacquer and going by that definition, pretty much all hobby paints could be classified as a lacquer:

Lacquer - Any of various clear or colored synthetic coatings made by dissolving nitrocellulose or other cellulose derivatives together with plasticizers and pigments in a mixture of volatile solvents and used to impart a high gloss to surfaces.

So technically, calling the Tamiya acrylics a "lacquer" would be correct in that sense. But so would all the other acrylics and enamel paints as well.

But as far as categorization for hobby paint (or even automotive) purposes, no one would know how to use anything if everything were called a lacquer.

Well, in any case, I'm just trying to plan out how I'm going to do my VF-0D and I bought the Alclad Klear Kote so I can do layers of weathering and not have to start from scratch each time I screw it up. I guess I'll need to do an extra Future clear coat on top before attempting a turpenoid based oil wash.

All I know is the Alclad gloss black primer is enamel - or reactive to mineral spirits (even though it says lacquer like the Alclad) - remember my Cosmo Zero that was distroyed when I tried an oil panel line wash and the turpentine when through the Alclad lacquer (which I guess was too thin) and attacked the gloss black primer beneath. That's when I switched to the Flory Pro Modeller's wash which is just inert clay and water - so its safe for every base coat.

My guess is its enamel as its supposed to cover over lacquer, if it was as hot as lacquer, wouldn't you think it might attack the metalized lacquer base coat which is super thin and delicate? I really have no idea though - just my 2 cents.

Oh yeah, I remember now that you mention it. That was really unfortunate =(

Maybe Alclad II Lacquer is sort of the brand/line name and not necessarily indicating what it is? Or maybe they're just going with that generic definition of lacquers.

They even seem to have different kinds of the same thing but for different materials.

Chrome Lacquer for Plastic

Chrome Lacquer for Lexan

I assume they must have different solvents or something.

[mickyg]

I think your assumption is spot on. Some of it is brand name and some is possibly "technically" accurate. The way I get my head around some of this is in how they do the solvent part of the paint. And the smell, of course. You can usually tell a "hot" or toxic paint from the smell. Classic lacquers being the most obvious and nasty, followed by enamels and then acrylics. But it gets very confusing when looking at acrylic paints. There are some that smell like hardly anything at all (Lifecolor and Model Master Acryl, for instance - I assume Citadel and Vallejo are similar) and then others that start to smell a bit more like alcohol (Gunze and Tamiya, for instance). If I'm not mistaken, they are supposedly non-toxic.

I know Gunze and Tamiya "Acrylics" can be thinned with their lacquer thinners (interchangeably) because I've had experience doing it. But try that with Lifecolor and you'll ruin the paint (and possibly the airbrush). My guess is some of the other "Acrylic" paints would be the same.

Back to the Alclad topic - no doubt at all the metal paints are lacquer solvent based, as you can tell that from the smell. But I'd expect the topcoat clears to be exactly what you're seeing: Enamel or Acrylic. Another Lacquer could work but if you put it on too thick, you'll dissolve the metal coat underneath. Enamel and water based clear sounds much more logical.

[MacrossJunkie]

I've no experience with Lifecolor or Citadel paints, but Model Master Acryl is indeed labelled as non-toxic, Vallejo as well. They can be thinned with distilled water.

The Tamiya acrylics are toxic. The Tamiya ones contain isopropanol and ethylene glycol ethers which is not something one should try to ingest or inhale. Not sure about the Gunze ones, as I only have the lacquer based Mr Color.

At the same time, though the Tamiya paints are apparently mixable with lacquer thinners, I'm still not really convinced that they are really lacquers in the traditional sense as the paint is still easily removed by acrylic solvents without ever harming a lacquer undercoat. They are perhaps just formulated to be lacquer thinner compatible. On the flip side, their thinner product meant for their acrylics doesn't seem to do well for something like the Mr. Color lacquers. I've heard you can use Mr. Color thinner to remove both lacquers and acrylics though.

[Mintox]

I can attest to Alclad being ''magical'' but as some one mentioned above it also very much depends on the surface colour underneath that will give differing results. I suggest that if you use it try it with both a black base or white base and even a grey base coat. You'l be surprised at the differing level of intensity you'll get from it especially the really ''shiny'' polished aluminium. I built a 1/72 Hustler as a commission job. Boy did it look good all shiny. I used a black base on that build.

[wm cheng]

Can't wait to see your VF-0D MJ!

Yes, I've cleaned out dried up Tamiya acrylics with Mr. Color lacquer thinner (as well as Aclad metalizers). Lacquer thinners are so hot that it will strip just about anything and I use that to clean up dried gunk. Tamiya acrylics are quite durable under the Future clear coat - I've found the Future clear coat to be the most durable top coat, more durable than any of the "model" clear coats I've found.

[MacrossJunkie]

Can't wait to see your VF-0D MJ!

Yes, I've cleaned out dried up Tamiya acrylics with Mr. Color lacquer thinner (as well as Aclad metalizers). Lacquer thinners are so hot that it will strip just about anything and I use that to clean up dried gunk. Tamiya acrylics are quite durable under the Future clear coat - I've found the Future clear coat to be the most durable top coat, more durable than any of the "model" clear coats I've found.

I can't wait to see it either! I just wish I didn't have to do the work

It's got me all nervous. In addition to attempting the salt weathering, I think I'm going to try spraying through a stipple sponge for different mottling effects too.

I still don't have a clear idea how the salt weathering works as far as cleaning off the salt after spraying. Seems to me you'd likely have some melted salt still trapped under the paint even after washing with water.

Might need to practice on a kit first...

[wm cheng]

Nope, it was as smooth as a baby's bottom, all the salt washed away completely, including the paint on top of the salt (its very thin light coats). I didn't have a clear idea either when I started - I just followed that instructions each step of the way and hoped for the best.

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=171765

It's the different shade of coats that does the mottling. I used the base colour as one coat, then an additional salt/spray that was a shade darker and another that was a shade lighter, and another one that was greyer/bluer to "colour-correct" the original base coat to a blue that was more to my liking. It's an amazing process and I highly recommend it. I used the Tamiya acrylic directly onto the bare plastic as my first coat because if it went badly, I could just use windex to take it back down to the bare plastic (windex doesn't harm what little Tampo there is nor the painted metal parts). Don't worry, the VF-0D plastic is pretty durable (more so than a styrene plastic kit). My only thing is that I wished I went further (I was a bit timid being my first attempt at the salt weathering) - after the gloss coat to prep for the waterslide decals, the gloss future really toned down the entire effect and made everything darker (I think the blue is too dark to begin with). So in direct sunlight, I love the colour and effect - but when its indoors in dim lighting, I still find it too subtle and too dark.

[Gabe Q]

So what are the "go to" colors to get in this line? I mean to paint a 1/48 Hasegawa strike valk. What would be good shades to get for the the exhaust and any other metallic parts?

[chaff.g]

So what are the "go to" colors to get in this line? I mean to paint a 1/48 Hasegawa strike valk. What would be good shades to get for the the exhaust and any other metallic parts?

For my build I used steel (metallic black), magnesium (gunmetal), burnt iron (sort of a dull reddish brown metallic), and copper (copper).

[NZEOD]

I've no experience with Lifecolor or Citadel paints, but Model Master Acryl is indeed labelled as non-toxic, Vallejo as well. They can be thinned with distilled water.

Citadel is non toxic. I used to paint alot of 40K figures on commission for other soldiers at Trentham and Waiouru camps and had a bad habit of wetting and re-pointing fine detail brushes with my mouth. I'm mostly still ok.

Picking up some Alclads tomorrow night from Hobbycity here in Auckland.

101 Aluminium

102 Duraluminium

104 Pale Burnt Metal

106 White Aluminium

113 Jet Exhaust

117 Matt Aluminium

119 Airframe Aluminium

120 Gunmetal

121 Burnt Iron

123 Exhaust Manifold

$200NZD!

A helpful visual of the effects below...

Edited August 20, 2015 by NZEOD