newca Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 don't know if this has been asked before. how can VF-0 "swim" in water? Edger said "it's been modified to use in space", but I still can't figure this out... Quote
JB0 Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 No clue whatsoever. I can't imagine they have enough air to keep the jet engines running for any length of time. Quote
Graham Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 Perhaps the VF-0 has pop out propellers for underwater use, which are powered by pedal power. Yep, for underwater use, the foot pedals in the cockpit are used for turning the prop, just like on one of those pedal boats. "Pedal faster Edgar damn it, he's getting away!" Graham Quote
Isamu Atreides 86 Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 Perhaps the VF-0 has pop out propellers for underwater use, which are powered by pedal power. Yep, for underwater use, the foot pedals in the cockpit are used for turning the prop, just like on one of those pedal boats. "Pedal faster Edgar damn it, he's getting away!" Graham just like CSN Hunley.... Quote
Vespaeda Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 Maybe the fact that the VF-0"...as been modified for space use.." only concerns the vacuum/watertight integrity of the airframe and systems, considering that obviously a turbofan will not operate in space. Edgar's statement may not necessarily be suggesting that it can "fly" in space, or that it has some sort of scramjet(also useless in vacuum). Just that they will be safe for submerged functions as they would be safe outside the earth's envelope if they happened to reach that high. It is still a fully functioning aerospace capsule, if not vehicle. On the matter of underwater propulsion, w/out any other input or tech speculation, I could only imagine that the turbines could operate as impellers when submerged, a testament to the degree of developement of a system rugged enough for fusion powered, combat mech ops. If one considers that the only "actual" developemental problems w/the Shinnakusu fusion drives seems to be controllable, sustained fusion reaction(ie: nuclear process) for power; not necessarily the 'mechanical' operation of the turbofan/jet/rocket system. This then yields an extremely durable, mechanical turbine & efflux system that may be fit to suck in water & eject it at higher velocity than injested. The same system that powers jetskis and even large cargo carrying hydrofoils. I even believe there is a state-of-the-art cruise ship(showcased on Discovery Ch. at some time last yr.) that is powered by vectoring impellers, as opposed to traditional, gigantic cast screws. How this turbine/impeller would work I'm not sure. I imagine the compressor blades could be adjusted in pitch to channel water as opposed to air, and a limited jet fuel burn(in combustion chamber section) to drive it like a hydro-electric steam turbine. Allowing for a place for water to be sucked in and ejected w/out interfering with this reaction, tremendous propulsive power could easily be developed. Rather than blast the Hoary Froating Head w/"blasphemous" ridicule for an 'apparent' anime magic engine, I'd give his hoariness the benefit of a doubt w/speculation on a derivatrive of contemporary technology from another discipline(sea system turbine engineeering). Vesp Quote
seventh-moon Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 don't know if this has been asked before. how can VF-0 "swim" in water? Edger said "it's been modified to use in space", but I still can't figure this out... magic Quote
pfunk Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 as long as its equiped with flippers, its a lot slower without,,,oh, and water wings Quote
ewilen Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 Vespaeda's solution seems pretty far out, but I suppose it's within the realm of possibility. I think the compressor/turbine blades would be turned by stored electricity instead of burning jet fuel underwater. The latter would use up any gaseous oxygen reserves extremely quickly. Max Jenius's solution also sounds good. I guess if we rewatch the underwater sequence, we might see where the "thrust" is coming from, which could give some clues as to how it's being produced. Quote
DarkReaper Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 It wasnt propellers or anything. It didnt move underwater using its engines, it was swimming in battroid mode. Guess it was operating on batteries or something. Quote
dna Posted December 16, 2003 Posted December 16, 2003 It looked to me like the back pack thrusters were operating. I had thought they were lit up any way. Quote
ewilen Posted December 17, 2003 Posted December 17, 2003 I just looked again and the way it goes is: 1) VF-0 dives into the water like a pelican. 2) Shin and Edgar sees that the enemy mecha is going to grab the VF-0, so Shin remembers being attacked by an octopus, as well as the fact that a VF-0 can transform to battroid and dodge. He transforms to battroid and the heat shield activates just in time to protect the cockpit. 3) VF-0 transforms to battroid and shoots big enemy mecha with the head laser. (Which is rifled for some reason.) 4) VF-0 coasts underwater toward the AFOS head and grabs it. At first, it seems like it could be swimming, but then we see the backpack thrusters are lit. 5) After grabbing the head, the VF-0 dodges a torpedo and thrusts out of the water. Picture 1: Activate thrusters. Quote
Akilae Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 On the matter of underwater propulsion, w/out any other input or tech speculation, I could only imagine that the turbines could operate as impellers when submerged, a testament to the degree of developement of a system rugged enough for fusion powered, combat mech ops. If one considers that the only "actual" developemental problems w/the Shinnakusu fusion drives seems to be controllable, sustained fusion reaction(ie: nuclear process) for power; not necessarily the 'mechanical' operation of the turbofan/jet/rocket system. But... don't we see the air intakes on the VF-0 closing right before Shin dives it into the water? If the intakes are closed.... then where are the turbines getting water? Quote
Anubis Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 Being Jet Engine turbines, NOT nuclear reaction engines, don't they need AIR to operate? Quote
Vespaeda Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 Well...my bad. Please forgive me as I've actually never seen any of the the Mac 0 anime. The screen caps posted by ewilen are the first I've seen of that scene. I was using pure speculation on what types of propulsion might be used by such a vehicle in those circumstances. Just exercising my technical imagination; giving back to Macross what Macross has always given to me And with that, I guess I withdraw my suggestion. Although, upon seeing the pics of the active backpack, I believe current rocket tech can be used under water, due to some boundary-layer/bubble phenomena or propulsion chemistry(pure sodium?)that prevents it from being extinguished. Other than that, now that I think about it, if the onboard fuel or electricity could be used to superheat water, the steam pressure could be a powerful thrust producer. Much mainstream aerospace rocket propulsion is provided by H2 + LOX rxn, backpack hydrolysis thrusters? Anyone come up w/a more plausible one? How'sabout one of our Nihon-jin members e-mailing Studio Nue for a tech explanation? Rabid fanboys wanna know! Off topic: Has anyone w/an aerospace appetite read up on Burt Rutan's X-prize contender, the far-out lift plane w/rocket pod underneath? I read that the main fuel for his rocket is a kind of granularized rubber compound that is non-toxic, as opposed to rocket science mainstay hydrazine. Pretty cool! Quote
David Hingtgen Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 I seriously doubt this is how it's done for a VF, but I bring it up as a relevant side-note: The main form of modern military ship propulsion is too drive the propeller via aircraft turbines. Does the same thing, works the same way---sucks in air, compresses, burns, spins turbine, thus spinning the propeller. Is actually a turboprop, just it's behind instead of in front. The LM2500, the "main" jet engine for ships, is much better known as the GE CF6, the main DC-10 engine, also used on the current Air Force One. (CF6 is the most common engine for widebody planes nowadays) Yes, most any modern US Navy ship runs on high-grade jet fuel. Ironically, jet-carrying carriers (even non-nuclear ones) don't. Quote
Göönk Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 (edited) I believe the robot is just swiming like a human beeing! It's possible. Anyway... it's an anime ! We can also imagine that the VF-0 backpack contains small quantities of Air/Gas mixture ready to be ignited. It's a possibility. Ignition system under water is WAY more complicated than ignition system in space or atmosphere... anyway, anyway... Another question : How is it that the VF-0 is not drawing when Edgar lands on sea surface? It should draw. Imagine the weight of this baby Another question : how can the VF-0 take off from sea surface if conventional air/gas turbines intakes are closed? Where the air is coming from? Edited December 19, 2003 by Göönk Quote
imode Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 How does a cruise missile launch from a submarine partially submerged underwater? Quote
ewilen Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 (edited) I believe the robot is just swiming like a human beeing! It's possible. Anyway... it's an anime ! I watched the scene in slo-mo and although the battroid pushes off from the enemy mecha and may give a very slight leg kick, you can also see that the thrusters are sometimes lit and sometimes not. Also, the thrust "jets" which come out of the backpack right before it surfaces give it away. We can also imagine that the VF-0 backpack contains small quantities of Air/Gas mixture ready to be ignited. It's a possibility. Ignition system under water is WAY more complicated than ignition system in space or atmosphere... anyway, anyway... I was thinking a solid fuel which has fuel and oxidizer already mixed, but I think you can't turn off a solid fuel booster. Could you use pelletted fuel? Otherwise, some of Vespaeda's suggestions sound good to me. The backpack thrusters are described in the Compendium as "Three Shinnakasu ARR-2 maneuvering rocket motors in GERWALK and Battroid modes." This is different from the VF-1 thrusters, which are "Four Shinnakasu Heavy Industry NBS-1 high-thrust vernier thrusters." Another question : How is it that the VF-0 is not drawing when Edgar lands on sea surface? It should draw. Imagine the weight of this baby Good question. Maybe it's treading water. Another question : how can the VF-0 take off from sea surface if conventional air/gas turbines intakes are closed? Where the air is coming from? Like imode said. Not much different from a Tomahawk. A rocket booster pushes it out of the water and into the air, after which the jet engines take over. Edited December 19, 2003 by ewilen Quote
Raptor Posted December 19, 2003 Posted December 19, 2003 I seriously doubt that the VF-0's backpack has a solid fuel rocket. It's more than likely a throttlable liquid fuel rocket (possibly similar to the X-15...). Quote
David Hingtgen Posted December 20, 2003 Posted December 20, 2003 imode--most every weapon's different in how it's launched when underwater. Harpoon anti-ship missile: stuffed inside a special "flotation bubble" (basically a sleek capsule), shot out of the sub like a torpedo, floats to the surface, then fires its rocket motor and bursts out of the bubble to fly. Tomahawk: launched like a torpedo until it's 33ft from the sub (lanyard attached), then fires its rocket motor underwater, bursts through to the surface, then once it's above the surface it engages its jet engine. Nuclear missiles: propelled via *highly* compressed air all the way from launch depth to above the surface of the water, then ignites its rocket motor just above the surface. That's why you usually see LOTS of bubbles with an ICBM launch--all the air used to blast it out of the ocean. Quote
Lightning Posted December 20, 2003 Posted December 20, 2003 Another question : How is it that the VF-0 is not drawing when Edgar lands on sea surface? It should draw. Imagine the weight of this baby VF-1 was able to float in DYRL, so the -0 should be able to also (most likely) Quote
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