VF-1A to 1S, ppgrade or complete replacement when promoted in DYRL?

[peter]

When pilots get promoted to squad leaders, do they just upgrade (complete overhaul, optional new paint) their VF-1A to -1S models or is it a complete new bird? It just had me thinking because I read in Wikipedia today:

• The Mihoshi Academy on board the Macross Frontier has a VF-1 Valkyrie fighter atop the roof. It is not just any VF-1, however - it is Ichijyo's first mount as leader of the Vermilion Squad of Skull Squadron.

It looked like a VF-1A, but I can't be sure, so did they just take his original VF-1A (the one that was beaten to $hit during his Minmei rescue) and restore it? Because the VF-1S he had at the end of DYRL looked exactly the same except the head. not sure if it was a completely new plane, or just upgraded parts (other than the head, whatever else there is that comes with the S models).

Same goes for Max, because his 1S looks pretty much the same as his 1A.

In SDF Macross, I guess they all got new planes because Max's 1A was completely destroyed, Kakizaki died, and Hikaru's 1J was pretty beaten up when he took over Roy's 1S....curious, wonder why Max never got a 1S in SDF Macross....

Edited June 10, 2013 by azrael

[Gian]

curious, wonder why Max never got a 1S in SDF Macross....

And how would be it's paint scheme? Completely blue as his VF-1J? (I remember seeing a VF-1S painted completely red in the PSP game macross triangle frontier. Even the head was red)

[peter]

And how would be it's paint scheme? Completely blue as his VF-1J? (I remember seeing a VF-1S painted completely red in the PSP game macross triangle frontier. Even the head was red)

Not really sure...his -1A and his 1J had different paint schemes, and I think both would look good as -1S.

[EXO]

Wasn't Max and Millia in the Skull Squadron? Just like Hikaru's Vermillion team was under Fockers. My guess would be if he became the Skull Leader he'd get a black and yellow one because in the TV show it was in the lineage of the Jolly Rogers colors, unlike in DYRL where everyone got their own valk with the skull emblem with different colors assigned to them. I also think they get a whole new valkyrie and a new strike pack in DYRL. That's all just my imagination though.

[peter]

See, that's one thing that sort of baffled me about SDF Macross....why was there only one Skull, if it was Skull Squadron? At least in DYRL, everyone had a Skull, and the colors were really just personal choice.

I liked Roy's color theme because it was the Jolly Rogers Colors, didn't know that it was supposed to have direct lineage to the Jolly Rogers Squadron. That's kind of cool.

By the way, does anyone know if the VF-1 in Frontier is a 1A or a 1S?

Edited May 23, 2013 by peter

[Benson13]

I was under the impression Vermilion consisted of Hik, Max, and Kaki which then fell under Roy who managed several groups like them.

[peter]

I think he's talking about after Kakizaki died and Roy was long gone....Max and Millia were members of Skull Squadron under Hikaru....but then they both had 1Js, so doesn't that signify that they commanded a squad each?

[Gian]

Max even managed to have the virgin road, which is also completely blue. I think a blue VF-1S would look awesome!

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

When pilots get promoted to squad leaders, do they just upgrade (complete overhaul, optional new paint) their VF-1A to -1S models or is it a complete new bird? It just had me thinking because I read in Wikipedia today:

Same goes for Max, because his 1S looks pretty much the same as his 1A.

In SDF Macross, I guess they all got new planes because Max's 1A was completely destroyed, Kakizaki died, and Hikaru's 1J was pretty beaten up when he took over Roy's 1S....curious, wonder why Max never got a 1S in SDF Macross....

it looked like in the TV series there was only one top commander vf-1s with no re-paints and same ship (was roy's and then hikaru's.) and all other's got a vf-1j as squad commanders (hikaru vermillion 1j, max, miria 1j's)

(maybe similar was Zero as there was only one vf-0s)

DYRL was inconsistent to the series, in certain designs, such as flight suits and Zentradi (green skinned exodore) DYRL skull squad had all jolly rogers variants vs. tv series where skull squad didn't

(remembering a scene where Hikaru is squad leader in skull one leading a bunch of brownies, in Episode #28 "My Album" where hikaru lands to see flowers blooming post war.)

but i believe in DYRL there was only still one vf-1s as top command as in the series, (the only reason max got the vf-1s in DYRL, was bc roy, misa, hikaru were MIA and thought dead.)

(Macross 7 seemed to mixed the old tv series like keeping the classic tv flight suit of miria, w/ DYRL elements such as Zentradi green skinned exodore)

noob edit

Edited May 23, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[Deadeye_281]

When pilots get promoted to squad leaders, do they just upgrade (complete overhaul, optional new paint) their VF-1A to -1S models or is it a complete new bird?

Using real world military experience as a guide: a pilot going from a VF-1A to either a 'J' or 'S' should by rights receive an entirely new bird. There should be more than just a coat of paint and a head swap involved here as the upgraded airframe will more than likely have upgraded flight systems such as avionics. 'J' and 'S' pilots would have access to birds with far more sensitive yoke and throttle yielding superior response times in terms of manouevering and handling over their 'A' model counterparts. Squadron leaders and Wing Commanders would likewise have more advanced fire control systems where they can select and relay targets of opportunity to subordinate aircraft at will. The same goes for the communications suite where 'A' pilots can talk to their squad mates and their squad leader - 'J' pilots can do this and talk to their wing commanders - 'S' pilots can do this and talk to their fellow wing commanders as well as flag command. All of these systems would be handbuilt into the bird from day 1 at the factory.

In short, the more rank you put on, the more you are saddled with command responsibility. With that in mind, you'll need better kit to get the job done. There would also be some serious liasion between a pilot and his ground crew chief in order to get his new ride 'dialed in' in terms of adjusting those upgraded avionics etc. etc. to best match the pilot's inherent and individual level of raw skill and capability, IE: Max's 1S in DYRL was almost certainly tuned to a much higher performance level than Hikaru and even Roy's 1S. Max's 1S controls were probably far too sensitive for any other pilot to effectively fly - which totally makes sense as Max was far beyond any other pilot.

[Gian]

I agree with Deadeye, but I'm waiting to sketchley to enlighten us

[Vifam7]

Using real world military experience as a guide: a pilot going from a VF-1A to either a 'J' or 'S' should by rights receive an entirely new bird. There should be more than just a coat of paint and a head swap involved here as the upgraded airframe will more than likely have upgraded flight systems such as avionics. 'J' and 'S' pilots would have access to birds with far more sensitive yoke and throttle yielding superior response times in terms of manouevering and handling over their 'A' model counterparts. Squadron leaders and Wing Commanders would likewise have more advanced fire control systems where they can select and relay targets of opportunity to subordinate aircraft at will. The same goes for the communications suite where 'A' pilots can talk to their squad mates and their squad leader - 'J' pilots can do this and talk to their wing commanders - 'S' pilots can do this and talk to their fellow wing commanders as well as flag command. All of these systems would be handbuilt into the bird from day 1 at the factory.

In short, the more rank you put on, the more you are saddled with command responsibility. With that in mind, you'll need better kit to get the job done. There would also be some serious liasion between a pilot and his ground crew chief in order to get his new ride 'dialed in' in terms of adjusting those upgraded avionics etc. etc. to best match the pilot's inherent and individual level of raw skill and capability, IE: Max's 1S in DYRL was almost certainly tuned to a much higher performance level than Hikaru and even Roy's 1S. Max's 1S controls were probably far too sensitive for any other pilot to effectively fly - which totally makes sense as Max was far beyond any other pilot.

In the real world, every aircraft in the squadron basically has the same kit and commanders are often not flying their own ship. Who flies what is generally determined by a rotation schedule. So yes, sometimes the new guy is flying the CAG plane.

In the real world, there's no such rule as the commander's plane being hotter and better equipped than any other aircraft in the squadron.

[Gakken85]

Didn't HIkaru just get Roy's plane and they repainted it?

I'm assuming the Macross has factories, but in the heat of battle I'm sure they did repaints and upgrades.

Edited May 24, 2013 by Gakken85

[Deadeye_281]

In the real world, every aircraft in the squadron basically has the same kit and commanders are often not flying their own ship. Who flies what is generally determined by a rotation schedule. So yes, sometimes the new guy is flying the CAG plane.

In the real world, there's no such rule as the commander's plane being hotter and better equipped than any other aircraft in the squadron.

You speak the truth but like I said, I was using the real world military as a 'guide' to explaining away how Macross universe Valkyries are built and assigned. At least, that was my intent - guess I should have stated that clearer. If you get into the nitty gritty of the VF-1 manufacturing details via the Macross Mecha Manual, there are specifically stated differences in hardware/performance specifications amongst the VF-1 fleet beyond the obvious differences, IE: 4 head lasers to 1 etc. etc. They are just nuances in some cases but they are there and based on those specs the VF-1S has better overall performance than any other model. There's a reason they were manufactured in limited numbers as they were the apex of Valkyrie design (for the SDFM/DYRL era) and were likewise only assigned to the very best pilots who could best make use of their flight characteristics in combat.

[CoreyD]

In the real world, every aircraft in the squadron basically has the same kit and commanders are often not flying their own ship. Who flies what is generally determined by a rotation schedule. So yes, sometimes the new guy is flying the CAG plane.

In the real world, there's no such rule as the commander's plane being hotter and better equipped than any other aircraft in the squadron.

True, but in the Army the commander's vehicle is usually the one with the most radio antennas sticking out of it, so he's generally right about the command and control aspects

[peter]

Didn't HIkaru just get Roy's plane and they repainted it?

I'm assuming the Macross has factories, but in the heat of battle I'm sure they did repaints and upgrades.

Are you talking about SDF Macross where he inherited Roy's plane? I don't recall which repaint you're talking about because he rolled with the same colors as Roy did (white, black and yellow), and there was no way he got Roy's plane in DYRL because that blew up along with Roy.

[CoreyD]

He prob just meant a repaint to fix the battle damage.

[EXO]

I think he's talking about after Kakizaki died and Roy was long gone....Max and Millia were members of Skull Squadron under Hikaru....but then they both had 1Js, so doesn't that signify that they commanded a squad each?

Hikaru already had his 1J prior to being assigned a squad. Remember he saved Misa from the destruction of Mars Base Sara with is VF-1J and that rescue was what got him the promotion and his command.

[Valkyrie addict]

True, but in the Army the commander's vehicle is usually the one with the most radio antennas sticking out of it, so he's generally right about the command and control aspects

Does this means Luca in Frontier was really the mastermind behind SMS??? lol :lol:

Kidding, Luca was as useless as navel lint.

BTW, Hikaru, Max and Kakizaki all got a second 1J and respectives 1A, they were all lost when Britai capture them and Misa.

Interesting fact, every pilot from SDFM except Roy has had one of their SDFM VF-1's destroyed at some point.

Millia's VF-1J got destroyed in Macross 7.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Valkyrie addict

[peter]

Oh yeah, Hikaru started with a 1J, then he got Max and Kakizaki assigned to him after.....did Max get his 1J right after the events of their capture or did he rock a 1A for a while longer? I don't remember, will have to go back and watch it.

So, pretty much from what I'm getting here, there are tons of factors of why and when a pilot goes from a 1A to a 1J or 1S. And if they do, it will be a completely new plane (better specs for the 1S models?). In DYRL, it was just Hikaru's preference that his brand new 1S was painted in the scheme as his 1A.

It'd be cool to see these 1S:

SDFM Max colors

SDFM Kakizaki colors

CF in 1S

SDFM Hikru's first 1J colors with a 1S head.

Wish I had the time and money to build models of all of these "fantasy" variants.

[azrael]

Oh yeah, Hikaru started with a 1J, then he got Max and Kakizaki assigned to him after.....did Max get his 1J right after the events of their capture or did he rock a 1A for a while longer? I don't remember, will have to go back and watch it.

IIRC, he was using a 1A until Misa went planet-side.

[Saruta]

After reading all this, I still don't understand how Hikaru's "first mount as leader" could be placed on board the Frontier when it was lost to Britai. Unless Britai somehow returned the wreck later and it was rebuilt to a "non-working monument" standard.

The VF was not totally destroyed (hard to do that with a club) and I can imagine Britai returning it sometime after the big battle. But I can't understand why the wreck would be preserved and not dumped to space. Or do they just routinely preserve their own wrecks to cannibalize them for parts, so they applied normal procedure?

Edited May 31, 2013 by Saruta

[CoreyD]

There are a lot of display and airshow aircraft around the U.S. that are painted to look like a specific aircraft, but aren't in fact the actual aircraft (one of the airshow B-17 Memphis Belle's is an example). Hikaru's VF-1A is likely no different...it's painted to look like and commemorate a famous VF1 pilot's aircraft.

[Valkyrie addict]

I thinks there's some confusion as in the event of SDFM and DYRL

According to the Macross Universe, it is considered that SDFM is what originally happened and DYRL is a historical depiction of the events, like a war movie within the Macross universe. Of course, he hory froating troll Kawamori decided to tell fans who keeps asking what's the true story is between SDFM and DYRL, to add more confusion, Macross 7 adds flashbacks of the original events mixing SDFM flashback with DYRL designs, we even get a scene of VF-1S Hikaru and VF-1S Max together wIth Britai, and now Macross the First keeps adding new quirks to the original story.

Anyway, if we go by idea of DYRL being a war movie, you could say the VF-1A in Frontier is the original movie prop used. Or if you considered DYRL the original story, Hikaru VF-1A was not destroyed, it was only damaged when he rescued Minmay and got trapped with her. After that he got captured in the VT-1 and when the SDF-1 returned to Earth he got his 1A when the Meltrandi attacked, his 1A did not get destroyed and he later got the 1S. So then, Frontier has the Hikaru first aircraft in display.

Who knows, maybe in 5 years when its Macross 35th Anniversay and Bandai decides to make "Mobile Suit Macross Wing F91 Evolve Unicorn" and finds a new way to retell the same Macross story like in Frontier we'll get trolled with a 1J from Macross the First in a museum aside Alto VF-25 to confuse everyone again.

[peter]

I thinks there's some confusion as in the event of SDFM and DYRL

According to the Macross Universe, it is considered that SDFM is what originally happened and DYRL is a historical depiction of the events, like a war movie within the Macross universe. Of course, he hory froating troll Kawamori decided to tell fans who keeps asking what's the true story is between SDFM and DYRL, to add more confusion, Macross 7 adds flashbacks of the original events mixing SDFM flashback with DYRL designs, we even get a scene of VF-1S Hikaru and VF-1S Max together wIth Britai, and now Macross the First keeps adding new quirks to the original story.

Anyway, if we go by idea of DYRL being a war movie, you could say the VF-1A in Frontier is the original movie prop used. Or if you considered DYRL the original story, Hikaru VF-1A was not destroyed, it was only damaged when he rescued Minmay and got trapped with her. After that he got captured in the VT-1 and when the SDF-1 returned to Earth he got his 1A when the Meltrandi attacked, his 1A did not get destroyed and he later got the 1S. So then, Frontier has the Hikaru first aircraft in display.

Who knows, maybe in 5 years when its Macross 35th Anniversay and Bandai decides to make "Mobile Suit Macross Wing F91 Evolve Unicorn" and finds a new way to retell the same Macross story like in Frontier we'll get trolled with a 1J from Macross the First in a museum aside Alto VF-25 to confuse everyone again.

No effin' $hit, talk about confusing, haha!

To answer Saruta's question, the VF-1 in Frontier is in the colors from DYRL, so it's either the original "movie" prop, or Hiarku's first VF-1A (the one he mucked up during his Minmei rescue that was presumeably repaired by the time he got back to the Macross) before he got his -1S for the final battle.

....the Frontier Valk is a 1A right? I haven't been able to get a look at the head unit.

[Zinjo]

If I remember correctly, the "S" variant has more "command" equipment on board, such as a more advanced communication system, combat computer, more responsive, etc ... Tools a squadron commander would need in combat, so unlike RW US naval norms where the CAG's bird is flown by more than just the CAG, in the Macross universe only the CAG or Squadron Commander flies his own bird.

I always considered the Vermillion "team" a "flight" of the Skull squadron. Squadrons are made up of several "flights" which consist of 3 - 4 fighters, which collectively make up the squadron. Now giving a name to a flight is a bit unusual I suspect. Now if the Skull team was the name of a Carrier Wing, then Vermillion could be a squadron in that Wing, but we have not proof of that so far.

Kawamori once upon a time stated that the actual events of Macross were somewhere between SDFM and DYRL and then that changed when M7 was released, which relegated DYRL to a movie within the universe (IMO a coward's way out, but that is just me). However it would appear that his assertion that DYRL showed the aesthetics he originally imagined for the SDFM series in both design and look, which has further been reinforced by both M7 and MF. So I lean toward the DYRL color schemes and fighter designs more than the SDFM versions.

Though Kawamori still maintains (to his credit) that the events shown in all the productions are merely media productions of the actual historical events in the Macross universe, similar to how there can be several films or TV shows about the events of WW1 or WW2. They are dramatic representations of the actual events, which may or may not be taken as cannon. I think the Chronicle goes a bit too far trying to explain the discrepancies. They should simply try to present the "historical record". Certain events occurred, certain equipment was built, certain people were present, certain geo-political climates and conditions were present during various eras.

As for the fighter being the first mount of Ijicho, I wonder how that would have been accomplished, considering he was a war hero and one would expect his fighters, as well as Max Jenius' and even Fokers would have been in a war museum somewhere on Earth. A replica I could see, but the actual craft seems a bit incredible.

[Agent ONE]

Wasn't Max and Millia in the Skull Squadron? Just like Hikaru's Vermillion team was under Fockers. My guess would be if he became the Skull Leader he'd get a black and yellow one because in the TV show it was in the lineage of the Jolly Rogers colors, unlike in DYRL where everyone got their own valk with the skull emblem with different colors assigned to them. I also think they get a whole new valkyrie and a new strike pack in DYRL. That's all just my imagination though.

I wouldn't attempt to find reason or logic in the squadron assignments compared with the paint schemes in the TV show. There was little attention to detail in the show.

[peter]

I wouldn't attempt to find reason or logic in the squadron assignments compared with the paint schemes in the TV show. There was little attention to detail in the show.

Actually, what you said pretty much applies to everything I said in my original post. The consensus seems to be that when a pilot goes from CF to squad/flight leader, it's not simply a head swap, it's probably a completely new plane, and sometimes, it happens to be painted exactly the same way as their original -1A.

It'd be cool if they did some sort of BBC/Discover channel style fictional documentary on Valkyries, and life aboard the Macross as a pilot.

Edited June 3, 2013 by peter

[EXO]

I wouldn't attempt to find reason or logic in the squadron assignments compared with the paint schemes in the TV show. There was little attention to detail in the show.

Wasn't really thinking about... just some stuff I noticed while watching... it's been a while since I've watched it straight thru, so my memory is muddy.

It'd be cool if they did some sort of BBC/Discover channel style fictional documentary on Valkyries, and life aboard the Macross as a pilot.

I'd watch that for sure. In fact I had just watched one about life on a carrier, right down to the trash they generate.

[peter]

Wasn't really thinking about... just some stuff I noticed while watching... it's been a while since I've watched it straight thru, so my memory is muddy.I'd watch that for sure. In fact I had just watched one about life on a carrier, right down to the trash they generate.

Maybe an idea for some fan to produce, say 10 or so years down the road when photorealistic CGI can be accomplished by your every day joe like you or me

[r_hunter85]

Macross compendium has articles citing differences between A/J/S ....in particular better engines!

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-1_Valkyrie

[Gagarin]

After reading all this, I still don't understand how Hikaru's "first mount as leader" could be placed on board the Frontier when it was lost to Britai. Unless Britai somehow returned the wreck later and it was rebuilt to a "non-working monument" standard.

The VF was not totally destroyed (hard to do that with a club) and I can imagine Britai returning it sometime after the big battle. But I can't understand why the wreck would be preserved and not dumped to space. Or do they just routinely preserve their own wrecks to cannibalize them for parts, so they applied normal procedure?

It's fiberglass/plastic, not a real plane.