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Posted (edited)

I don't know much at all about the 3D scanner market, though I'm pretty sure I saw a reference to a simple and compact one during my browsing through 3D printers.

Nice find on that new printer by the way, that looks like it would be a bit more cost effective than the Cube-3D ones, from the materials standpoint.

How's the layer thickness on that one?

As far as CAD programs go, I actually use 3D Studio Max, since it'll export STL files, and I'm used to the interface, but an actual mechanical CAD program might be better. Blender I hear a lot about as well, though I wonder if GMax is capable of STL file output. GMax is basically just a chopped down version of 3D Studio Max meant to be used for game mod development, and uses the same basic interface. It's mostly limited by what export plug-ins you can find for it, but someone may have made an STL one for it.

If you're thinking of buying a program though, I'd look up Rhinoceros 3D. One of the cheapest full-function CAD programs I know of, and I think it has quite a few useful features for 3D printing and machining.

Edited by Chronocidal
Posted

I think give it two years or so these things will be available for under a grand each.

Posted

Whoa, I went and checked out the site for the Up Plus 2. Not sure if those models on the site are in raw printed form, but some of them look like they'd blow the quality of the Cube 3D out of the water.

I imagine a lot of it is in the software used, but the fine detail on some of those objects looks pretty impressive.

Posted (edited)

I don't know much at all about the 3D scanner market, though I'm pretty sure I saw a reference to a simple and compact one during my browsing through 3D printers.

Nice find on that new printer by the way, that looks like it would be a bit more cost effective than the Cube-3D ones, from the materials standpoint.

How's the layer thickness on that one?

As far as CAD programs go, I actually use 3D Studio Max, since it'll export STL files, and I'm used to the interface, but an actual mechanical CAD program might be better. Blender I hear a lot about as well, though I wonder if GMax is capable of STL file output. GMax is basically just a chopped down version of 3D Studio Max meant to be used for game mod development, and uses the same basic interface. It's mostly limited by what export plug-ins you can find for it, but someone may have made an STL one for it.

If you're thinking of buying a program though, I'd look up Rhinoceros 3D. One of the cheapest full-function CAD programs I know of, and I think it has quite a few useful features for 3D printing and machining.

I'm really happy to have stumbled on the Up! Plus2. It's super user-friendly, and basically outperforms everything in the market right now, including Shapeways.

The minimum wall thickness is 1mm.

Thanks for the recommendation on the CAD software, but Rhinoceros 3D seems a little too pricy for me, at 995 USD. I spent about 2420 USD for the Plus 2, which is a lot more than I initially expected, since the prices at online stores had it 1600 USD minus shipping. Not sure I can spare another 1K on software.

I'm currently use the free version of Sketchup, which isn't half-bad. I even found a plugin that lets you export to STL format. Thing is, some of the more useful features are locked, and you'll have to make do by "Frankensteining" it with various plugins. I'm considering getting the Pro version (approx. 500 USD), but thought I'd try out other stuff first.

In terms of user-friendliness, how does the Rhino3D software compare to Sketchup? I tried Blender for a couple of days, and it drove me up the wall. Just couldn't wrap my mind around it--though in my defense, I've never studied AutoCAD before.

Whoa, I went and checked out the site for the Up Plus 2. Not sure if those models on the site are in raw printed form, but some of them look like they'd blow the quality of the Cube 3D out of the water. I imagine a lot of it is in the software used, but the fine detail on some of those objects looks pretty impressive.

I've heard that one of the main selling points of the Plus printers is that the quality is good enough that you don't need to do any touching up on the model, other than remove it from the board and slicing off the support structures.

I even read an article saying that in a test between the Plus, Shapeways and several other 3D printers, the Plus picked up on all the details of the subject (an owl). The Plus printer managed to print out even the nostrils of the owl, something even Shapeways failed to do.

3D Mechwarrior Atlas.

http://kotaku.com/the-future-has-arrived-print-your-own-mechwarrior-toys-510918282

It's time for the unseen to rise again.

I applaud this beautiful plastic middle finger standing bravely in the face of HG.

Edited by GU-11
Posted

Oh, sorry about the Rhinoceros thing, I was actually a fan of it back when it was new, and you could get a license for around $200. I'd say it's still worth looking into if you can find an old used copy or something, it's an extremely capable program, and I always loved the interface design.

It's basically designed to be used for concept design work, so while you can do mathematical operations and things with it, it's meant to be very free-form, and let you design whatever you want. Really good for organic shapes. At the time I used it, I was working from a demo, and I was severely underusing it because I only needed polygon models. :lol:

Posted

Wow, it sounds like the perfect software for 3d printing.

I'll definitely keep this on my top 3 choices list. Some of the 3d renders that came up when I was googling the software look really good.

Posted

I tried Blender, too, and I state that the interface was purposely designed to keep everyone except hardcore 3d modeling haxxor freaks from using the software.

I could have won a Guinness world record for "most expletives shouted in 48 hours" in those two days I was using Blender.

Posted

@ GU-11: you've got a high pain tolerance. I gave up after a few hours of poking it and returned to Sketchup - which, despite its short comings and frustrations, is functional enough that a layman can still fumble through and end up with something halfway decent.

Posted (edited)

I'm still trying to think of how you could go about converting Gmax exports into STL format. Last I checked, Gmax is still free, and still available from TurboSquid.com.

It's possibly the most capable free 3D modeling program on the market, since it's essentially 3D Studio Max with the rendering and fancy production tools removed. The trick is finding a format you can export in. Basically, the people behind 3DSMax at the time were banking on a business model that depended on developers buying into Gmax for free-use mod developers. So, essentially, the only official export plugins you can get for it are the ones provided by companies who decided to pony up the cash to bundle Gmax with their games. For most cases, like Microsoft Flight Sim, the plugins only export in proprietary formats that were only useful in the games they were intended for.

BUT. Gmax also has native support to export in Quake 3 .md3 format. It was one of the earliest formats built into Gmax, and has always been the go-to when someone needed to use Gmax to build something that needed to be converted to something else. Granted .md3 is an old format, but I think it's also very simple, and very easy to convert into other formats. People have used that format as a way to work around Gmax's export limitations, and share files between programs.

Assuming Blender can import models well enough, and you can find a way to convert .md3 files into .3ds, or even directly to .stl, you might be able to bypass the interface frustration, and just use Gmax to make the models. Given the nature of game developers, it wouldn't surprise me if people have dug down into the Gmax plugin format, and learned to make their own, so you might find a ready-made .stl exporter somewhere. I think that might go against something about the original Gmax license (they only wanted game developers paying them to make any plugins), but when have software licenses stopped people from developing their own tweaks to the program? :p

You know.. honestly. I've been dealing with a few very basic file formats lately, and I have to wonder how hard it would be to write a converter, and just take a Gmax project file, and spit out an STL. STL is literally just a list of triangle vertices with a header and footer, while md3 looks like is has a section that is exactly that. Anyone with a little experience scripting could probably do it.

Edited by Chronocidal
Posted

Something I have been wondering for a while. Let's say if I want to print out a 1 inch cube, how do I know if the 3D model is in the right scale?


I have some experience with 3D studio max, not quite understand how the unit scale set up work. I suppose you have to import the model to a CAD program and have the scale set up there instead?

Posted

Well, for something like Shapeways, the units can be whatever you want. It's just a proportional measurement. If you're building something that has dimensions in a particular unit (cm, in, ft, etc), you can set the units in 3DS Max to be whatever you like in the interface, but it has absolutely no effect on the model's geometry.

The translation from a model to printing is the only time you actually apply real units. When you send something through Shapeways, they ask you what your units are. They offer two settings (cm, and in) and it's up to you to size your model correctly based on that.

So, if you want to make a cube that's got 1 inch edges, you make a model that's one unit on an edge, and then select inches for units when you import the model into the printing software. STL files are VERY simple, and don't contain anything about what units you're using, it's just vertex data relative to whatever coordinate system you've got set up.

Posted

Thanks for sharing guys, this is some cool stuff!!! Shouldn't this be in the modelling section somewhere? - MT

Posted

@ GU-11: you've got a high pain tolerance. I gave up after a few hours of poking it and returned to Sketchup - which, despite its short comings and frustrations, is functional enough that a layman can still fumble through and end up with something halfway decent.

I only gave Blender a try because I heard it was popular with the 3d printing crowd--it didn't occur to me then that the majority of that crowd also happen to be experienced professional 3d rendering experts. I thought I could tough it out, but none of the damn controls made any sense to me. F**king sculpting tools were next to useless, and the only thing I managed to do right after tinkering with the software for a whole day was merge a cylinder and a cube...and that was after I spent over an hour googling for tutorials.

Sketchup is definitely more layman-friendly than Blender.

I'm still trying to think of how you could go about converting Gmax exports into STL format. Last I checked, Gmax is still free, and still available from TurboSquid.com.

It's possibly the most capable free 3D modeling program on the market, since it's essentially 3D Studio Max with the rendering and fancy production tools removed. The trick is finding a format you can export in. Basically, the people behind 3DSMax at the time were banking on a business model that depended on developers buying into Gmax for free-use mod developers. So, essentially, the only official export plugins you can get for it are the ones provided by companies who decided to pony up the cash to bundle Gmax with their games. For most cases, like Microsoft Flight Sim, the plugins only export in proprietary formats that were only useful in the games they were intended for.

BUT. Gmax also has native support to export in Quake 3 .md3 format. It was one of the earliest formats built into Gmax, and has always been the go-to when someone needed to use Gmax to build something that needed to be converted to something else. Granted .md3 is an old format, but I think it's also very simple, and very easy to convert into other formats. People have used that format as a way to work around Gmax's export limitations, and share files between programs.

Assuming Blender can import models well enough, and you can find a way to convert .md3 files into .3ds, or even directly to .stl, you might be able to bypass the interface frustration, and just use Gmax to make the models. Given the nature of game developers, it wouldn't surprise me if people have dug down into the Gmax plugin format, and learned to make their own, so you might find a ready-made .stl exporter somewhere. I think that might go against something about the original Gmax license (they only wanted game developers paying them to make any plugins), but when have software licenses stopped people from developing their own tweaks to the program? :p

You know.. honestly. I've been dealing with a few very basic file formats lately, and I have to wonder how hard it would be to write a converter, and just take a Gmax project file, and spit out an STL. STL is literally just a list of triangle vertices with a header and footer, while md3 looks like is has a section that is exactly that. Anyone with a little experience scripting could probably do it.

That's a great idea!

The latest version of Blender can export straight to stl, which is the only thing that kept me from uninstalling it. Theoretically, you can save a model you rendered using Gmax as a file that Blender can open, and then export it as an stl file.

If Gmax is free, I'll download it and see if I like it better than Sketchup.

Well, for something like Shapeways, the units can be whatever you want. It's just a proportional measurement. If you're building something that has dimensions in a particular unit (cm, in, ft, etc), you can set the units in 3DS Max to be whatever you like in the interface, but it has absolutely no effect on the model's geometry.

The translation from a model to printing is the only time you actually apply real units. When you send something through Shapeways, they ask you what your units are. They offer two settings (cm, and in) and it's up to you to size your model correctly based on that.

So, if you want to make a cube that's got 1 inch edges, you make a model that's one unit on an edge, and then select inches for units when you import the model into the printing software. STL files are VERY simple, and don't contain anything about what units you're using, it's just vertex data relative to whatever coordinate system you've got set up.

Does that mean I won't have to worry about scaling my model in the right size while I'm rendering it (i.e. I can draw a 10-inch cube and resize it to a one-inch cube using the printing software)? The UP! Plus2 comes with bundled software, which I hope will allow me to scale the model correctly.

Posted

Well, for something like Shapeways, the units can be whatever you want. It's just a proportional measurement. If you're building something that has dimensions in a particular unit (cm, in, ft, etc), you can set the units in 3DS Max to be whatever you like in the interface, but it has absolutely no effect on the model's geometry.

The translation from a model to printing is the only time you actually apply real units. When you send something through Shapeways, they ask you what your units are. They offer two settings (cm, and in) and it's up to you to size your model correctly based on that.

So, if you want to make a cube that's got 1 inch edges, you make a model that's one unit on an edge, and then select inches for units when you import the model into the printing software. STL files are VERY simple, and don't contain anything about what units you're using, it's just vertex data relative to whatever coordinate system you've got set up.

Thank you, that make sense. A cube with 4 units , have it print out in 2 inches. You have to set it 1 unit = 0.5inch for printing, or a cube with 80 units, print out at 5 inches, 1 unit= 0.0625

I got a feeling I'm getting the conversion wrong.

Posted

When using true CAD software, if you create a model of a 10" cube, it will export as a 10" cube STL file; this is not always true with non-CAD modeling software... you could end up with a STL file that translates into a 10 cm cube, of a 10 km cube, but it will be 10 dimensional units in width, length and depth, so that scaling is a simple decimal multiplier. I work with 3DLightyear for SLA and CatalystEX for Stratasys' Dimension 1200es FDM 3D printer, and both apps import STL files in their exported scales, but will either convert automatically (Catalyst), or allow for easy unit conversion (Lightyear) of in-to-mm and vice versa, and both allow for custom scaling at the preparation software stage, before supports are added (Ex.: You model a figure at 1/18 scale and after exporting to STL you decide you'd like a 1/35 version of it; all you need to do is scale the model either by a decimal multiplier or a percentage, depending on the prep software you're using... all it takes is a little math to get from the overall height you have to the overall height you want.

Posted (edited)

Does anyone know how to cut spherical holes into a model using Sketchup? I'm trying to make a ball-joint and socket for a TF head, and am not sure how to go about it.

The ball joint isn't much of a problem--I just made a cylinder, put a downloaded sphere on one end, selected the cylinder and sphere, and then selected "create a group". Thing is, I've no idea how to cut a ball socket into the bottom of the bot's head.

Any idea, anyone?

Edited by GU-11
Posted

If you've got something similar in terms to "Boolean Operations," that's what you want. You might have something called union, subtraction, etc. It's basically all logical operations, but in model form.

With a subtraction, you're taking a solid object out of another solid, so that's what you want. You want to subtract part of the sphere from the head.

By the way, I won't say that Gmax is incredibly easy to learn either, since it's based off 3DSMax. It does have some tricks to the interface, but it's also extremely capable, and you can't go wrong with free software that powerful. ^_^ It just takes time to learn the tricks to it, and fortunately, Gmax is a lot more forgiving than 3DSMax, since it's got such a simplified set of options.

I just hope there's a way to export from it.

Posted

Thanks for the tip, Chronocidal! The tools you mentioned (subtraction, union) are locked in the free version. Fortunately, I found a free Boolean tool plugin, and I'll give that a try later.

Either way, I'll have to give Gmax a try one of these days. As I'm still exploring 3d rendering, I'd like to try out different rendering programs and see which ones suit me the most (Blender is NOT on my list of choices, I can guarantee you that much :p ).

Posted

Okay, super stupid question, and I admit I totally flunked my math and geometry tests back at school...does the 5mm measurement for TF weapons refer to the diameter of the cylindrical peg, or the width of it when measured across?

More importantly, how do I render a peg that's accurate to the measurements in Sketchup?

If I knew I was going to need geometry skills in 3d printing, I'd have paid more attention during math classes. :p

Posted (edited)

A cylinder has two measurements: diameter or radius (D = 2*R) and height/length. If you're not referring to how tall or long the cylinder is, then you're talking about the diameter/radius. In drafting, when you dimension a cylinder's top/plan view (all you see is a circle) you represent it with a standard diameter dimension: single arrow pointing to the center of the circle and a leader line with the measurement number having a Ø before it for diameter or a R for radius, double arrows pointing outwards from the center with the number (with a preceding Ø) between the arrows or outside the circle with a leader line; when dimensioning from a front/side (elevation) view, you show dimension lines on what looks like a rectangle measuring from parallel lines to denote height and diameter (see images bellow). Therefore, if I understood your question, the diameter and the width are the same thing.

As for Sketchup... no idea. :(

220px-CIRCLE_1.svg.png

fig602-2.jpg

Edited by mechaninac
Posted

Many thanks for the explanation, Mechaninac! I guess the 5mm measurement does indeed refer to the width of the cylinder. I dug up FOC Jazz's weapon and measured the peg, and it's almost exactly 5mm. If it were the circumference, it would have been more than 5mm. Stupid of me not to have thought of that in the first place.

Downloaded that diagram, too; I'm sure it'll come in handy in the future.

Posted (edited)

Does anyone know how to cut spherical holes into a model using Sketchup? I'm trying to make a ball-joint and socket for a TF head, and am not sure how to go about it.

Any idea, anyone?

The workable solutions I came up with are:

flat surface:

1. make circle in the location and the diameter of the hole you want.

2. pushpull the circle through the surface until the far end is flush with the far surface.

3. erase the plane inside the circle.

curved surface (or all the way through complex, multifaceted object):

1. put rod through curved surface in the location and in the diameter of the hole you want.

2. merge (or whatever the term is) - in effect, the overlapping parts disappear. So any parts of the surface that are penetrated by the rod are removed, and a new series of facets and surfaces are formed around the rod.

3. delete rod

Remember to pay attention (or better yet, directly input) the diameter of the hole in the measurement indicator in the lower right corner.

Edited by sketchley
Posted (edited)

So, I had to facepalm a bit when I thought of this. That old MD3 format is a really popular format for polygon models, because it's so simple. I went to look up whether you can import them into Blender.

Lo and behold, I do a google search, and yep. People have written import scripts for Blender that read MD3s.

So, problem solved. There's a direct route from Gmax to Blender, if you want to use it. While it'll take some work to learn, the library of online tutorials for using it is absolutely massive, especially in the aircraft realm, where it was the go-to program for the MS Flight Sim series.

Edited by Chronocidal
Posted (edited)

There is also a little program, from the defunct X Dimension Software, called 3D Exploration 1.11 BETA that can import and convert from-to many different mesh file formats, including MD3, and it exports to STL directly. This little gem from 1999 works great and will save the frustration of going through Blender; it must be noted that depending on the source file, some triangles may end up being omitted or get their normals flipped, but nothing that can't be easily healed in the prep software.

Edit: For anyone who may be interested, the installation file is called 3DEXPLOR.EXE, and it's only 1196 KB... the whole installed application is only 2.03 KB and runs flawlessly in Win7 64 bit. If the mods permit it, and only if the mods permit it, I can upload it here.

Edited by mechaninac
Posted (edited)

The workable solutions I came up with are:

flat surface:

1. make circle in the location and the diameter of the hole you want.

2. pushpull the circle through the surface until the far end is flush with the far surface.

3. erase the plane inside the circle.

curved surface (or all the way through complex, multifaceted object):

1. put rod through curved surface in the location and in the diameter of the hole you want.

2. merge (or whatever the term is) - in effect, the overlapping parts disappear. So any parts of the surface that are penetrated by the rod are removed, and a new series of facets and surfaces are formed around the rod.

3. delete rod

Remember to pay attention (or better yet, directly input) the diameter of the hole in the measurement indicator in the lower right corner.

I can't thank you enough for the help!

Stupid-question time: After reading the steps, does this mean I won't need any Boolean tools for this? Also, I don't recall any merge or equivalent options in Sketchup. IIRC, it automatically "fuses" two components or groups together when you intersect them. I'll try and simply intersect the rod and head, and then delete the rod to see if it does make a hole.

One more thing: for a ball socket, is it necessary for the hole to be bowl-shaped, like what you see on the ball sockets of certain TF and Gunpla heads?

So, I had to facepalm a bit when I thought of this. That old MD3 format is a really popular format for polygon models, because it's so simple. I went to look up whether you can import them into Blender.

Lo and behold, I do a google search, and yep. People have written import scripts for Blender that read MD3s.

So, problem solved. There's a direct route from Gmax to Blender, if you want to use it. While it'll take some work to learn, the library of online tutorials for using it is absolutely massive, especially in the aircraft realm, where it was the go-to program for the MS Flight Sim series.

That's good to know! I just downloaded Gmax, and I'll be tinkering around with it when I can find some time.

There is also a little program, from the defunct X Dimension Software, called 3D Exploration 1.11 BETA that can import and convert from-to many different mesh file formats, including MD3, and it exports to STL directly. This little gem from 1999 works great and will save the frustration of going through Blender; it must be noted that depending on the source file, some triangles may end up being omitted or get their normals flipped, but nothing that can't be easily healed in the prep software.

Edit: For anyone who may be interested, the installation file is called 3DEXPLOR.EXE, and it's only 1196 KB... the whole installed application is only 2.03 KB and runs flawlessly in Win7 64 bit. If the mods permit it, and only if the mods permit it, I can upload it here.

I found a file called UNKLAB 3D Explorer.exe. Is that the right one?

Edited by GU-11
Posted (edited)

Hah, I used 3D Exploration for years. :D Actually, it was extremely useful for a particular reason..

See, when I started doing CAD, I downloaded an early demo of Rhino.. I think 2.0. Well, back then, the demo wasn't limited by days, or uses. It was limited by save operations. You could save 25 times before the demo expired.

At first, I just would save the clipboard data from copy/paste operations with windows's clipboad viewer (Rhino being the only CAD program I know of that uses Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V). But one day, I found out that trying to render an image at 9 million by 9 million pixels will crash the program (no kidding). In the process of doing so, it activated an "Emergency Save" feature... which didn't use the limited save operations. Coupled with 3D Exploration's ability to import Rhino models, I went on to happily develop dozens of mods for various games, all without using up that Rhino demo. ^_^

If I ever find that demo, I could send it along to experiment with, but I'm not sure I still have the file.

Edited by Chronocidal
Posted

Stupid-question time: After reading the steps, does this mean I won't need any Boolean tools for this? Also, I don't recall any merge or equivalent options in Sketchup. IIRC, it automatically "fuses" two components or groups together when you intersect them. I'll try and simply intersect the rod and head, and then delete the rod to see if it does make a hole.

I'm not sure if Sketchup uses Boolean tools (it may be by another name).

"Intersect" is the name of the function (one can tell that it's been a while since I've used Sketchup, eh?).

http://support.google.com/sketchup/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=94856

One more thing: for a ball socket, is it necessary for the hole to be bowl-shaped, like what you see on the ball sockets of certain TF and Gunpla heads?

I don't think it matters what the interior of the socket looks like. All it needs is a smaller hole than the ball that goes in the socket (so it doesn't pop out easily), and a couple of points of contact inside the socket. Like the old-style ball-using computer mice. I've built some Gunpla kits (or similar) where the back side of the head ball socket was a flat piece...
Posted (edited)

....

I found a file called UNKLAB 3D Explorer.exe. Is that the right one?

Doesn't seem like it. Does it look like the image below when you install it?

post-664-0-86714500-1370573176_thumb.gif

Edit: If you'd like, send me a PM with your email address and I'll send you the install exe.

Edited by mechaninac
Posted

@SKETCHLEY: Thanks, I think i'm getting the hang of it now. Sketchup does have Boolean tools, but they're locked in the free version. I was able to download a free plugin that pretty much does the same--subtracting, merging, cutting, etc.

When you said smaller hole, how much smaller can I realistically make the hole? Would 0.5mm be a safe estimate? Sorry, but I'm completely inexperienced at 3d rendering.

Posted

You've built Gunpla, right? That's about the size difference you want. (Ball joint plugs in, but you can still remove it without fear of ripping the ball out).

Posted

Gunpla and most mecha model kits use polycaps on the sockets, so they probably fit more snugly. I think I'll start out with a 0.25mm difference and see if that works.

Thanks again!

Posted

Wow, how'd I miss this thread??
I also got started in 3D printing a couple months ago when I bought a Makerbot Replicator 2. It's more expensive than the Cube, but the max resolution is better (0.1mm), and you're not limited to using their filament cartridges. It only uses PLA plastic (unless you install a heated build plate), but it seems that printing in ABS is much more tricky anyway - especially at 0.1mm resolution.

As for 3D software, that's my big challenge right now too. I have a background in 2D drafting with AutoCAD, so I bought a student license of AutoCAD 2014 on ebay (less than $20!). But I'm finding that 3D autocad has a pretty steep learning curve...

Posted (edited)

Wow, how'd I miss this thread??

I also got started in 3D printing a couple months ago when I bought a Makerbot Replicator 2. It's more expensive than the Cube, but the max resolution is better (0.1mm), and you're not limited to using their filament cartridges. It only uses PLA plastic (unless you install a heated build plate), but it seems that printing in ABS is much more tricky anyway - especially at 0.1mm resolution.

As for 3D software, that's my big challenge right now too. I have a background in 2D drafting with AutoCAD, so I bought a student license of AutoCAD 2014 on ebay (less than $20!). But I'm finding that 3D autocad has a pretty steep learning curve...

I've been using Sketchup 8, and I think it's pretty good. It's free, it's user-friendly, and with the right plugins, you don't even need the Pro version.

And unless you're an expert in 3d rendering, I recommend staying away from Blender. It doesn't just have a steep learning curve, but a literal learning spiral (into insanity) :ph34r:

Edited by GU-11

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