English dubs: Accuracy vs Adaptation?

[Dio]

So, to preface this, I just recently watched SDF Macross (original series) for the first time in my life in its direct dub form. Prior to now, I knew it only as the first 1/3 of Robotech, and filled in the pieces myself as I grew more familiar with the sequel series (II, Plus, 7, Zero and Frontier).

Fortunately, outside of the creative liberties Robotech took, it was translated pretty closely to the original script, which made it easy to deduce the source material. Even names were similar enough to follow who was who. In watching the direct dub, however, I felt like something didn't sit right, and feel a little bummed that I actually liked the RT version better. Thinking more and more, comparing the Mac Plus dub to the (more literally translated) sub, I realized why I like certain versions of anime series better than others, and wanted to ask the folks here how y'all feel about it.

In short, I prefer translated dubs to make subtle tweaks to wording, and not try to be 100% literal in their translation. Sometimes great content can even be worked in by replacing non-essential dialogue. Hearing Isamu say "Did you say faster?" gave me much more of a chuckle than "Thrilling, huh?" Hearing Hikaru scream "sempai!" repeatedly made my ears bleed (not helped by a VA that sounds like Steve from American Dad), but "big brother" conveyed a much more real sense of loss when Roy made his way to Valhalla. I can't count the number of times in various series where they could much more effectively use the word "prodigy" to describe someone who has a phenomenal knack for something, but instead make a little less sense by calling them a "genius" (sometimes a downright head scratcher - "genius lifter/surfer" from Eureka 7 comes to mind, where Holland was clearly not displaying above-average intelligence).

I understand a need to keep things true to the source material, and I'm sure there are fans out there who want translations to be as pure as possible, but is that the force driving studios to be literal sometimes to the detriment of more mainstream appeal? I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from the community, but no poll or anything.

[Keith]

This topic will close in 5... 4... 3... 2...

[EXO]

I do agree mostly with the preference of making the dialogue sound more natural. I think some fan subbers always do direct word for word translations. But I think "big brother" is a bad example because no one really use that phrase in english. I'd rather hear sempai because it's probably a more natural thing that you'd hear in what's being said. Other than that I always use my friends that don't watch anime as a gauge on how receptive they are with the translations, dubs or subs. I feel like they get lost in the story more when it feels more natural and they don't have to figure out what the characters are trying to say when they're already reading (or hearing) it in english. To me the Studio Ghibli films dubs are pretty good examples.

[jenius]

Sempai is a good example of a word that just doesn't translate well. There's no English title that comes to mind that gets thrown around with any frequency and conveys a similar relationship. What I miss about translations are the wording jokes that get destroyed. A lot of Japanese anime has puns or word plays that get lost. Hmmmm, this reminds me of discussions that used to happen around Working Designs imports of Japanese RPGs and the translation work they would do (Back in the Sega CD days if I'm not mistaken).

[Keith]

Sempai is a good example of a word that just doesn't translate well. There's no English title that comes to mind that gets thrown around with any frequency and conveys a similar relationship. What I miss about translations are the wording jokes that get destroyed. A lot of Japanese anime has puns or word plays that get lost. Hmmmm, this reminds me of discussions that used to happen around Working Designs imports of Japanese RPGs and the translation work they would do (Back in the Sega CD days if I'm not mistaken).

Ah, I remember getting banned from the Working Designs forum way back when...

[Dynaman]

Part of the problem is that the Macross dub in particular is just plain bad. The best of the dubs find a way to keep the original meaning and sense of wordplay (when appropriate) while making it sound like natural English. Due to the differences in Cadence between Japanese and English that is not a skill to be taken lightly. The best example I can think of is the number of times a Japanese character will simply say "Hi!" as a response when in English to simply say "Yes!" sounds stupid or at least un-natural.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Dynaman

[DuelGundam2099]

I'd rather have accuracy all the way through when at all possible, preferable perfect translations with the sole exception of trying to understand puns with subtitle notes at the top or something. Some things you just should not tweak no matter how tempting.

[Gubaba]

So, to preface this, I just recently watched SDF Macross (original series) for the first time in my life in its direct dub form. Prior to now, I knew it only as the first 1/3 of Robotech, and filled in the pieces myself as I grew more familiar with the sequel series (II, Plus, 7, Zero and Frontier).

Fortunately, outside of the creative liberties Robotech took, it was translated pretty closely to the original script, which made it easy to deduce the source material. Even names were similar enough to follow who was who. In watching the direct dub, however, I felt like something didn't sit right, and feel a little bummed that I actually liked the RT version better. Thinking more and more, comparing the Mac Plus dub to the (more literally translated) sub, I realized why I like certain versions of anime series better than others, and wanted to ask the folks here how y'all feel about it.

In short, I prefer translated dubs to make subtle tweaks to wording, and not try to be 100% literal in their translation. Sometimes great content can even be worked in by replacing non-essential dialogue. Hearing Isamu say "Did you say faster?" gave me much more of a chuckle than "Thrilling, huh?" Hearing Hikaru scream "sempai!" repeatedly made my ears bleed (not helped by a VA that sounds like Steve from American Dad), but "big brother" conveyed a much more real sense of loss when Roy made his way to Valhalla. I can't count the number of times in various series where they could much more effectively use the word "prodigy" to describe someone who has a phenomenal knack for something, but instead make a little less sense by calling them a "genius" (sometimes a downright head scratcher - "genius lifter/surfer" from Eureka 7 comes to mind, where Holland was clearly not displaying above-average intelligence).

I understand a need to keep things true to the source material, and I'm sure there are fans out there who want translations to be as pure as possible, but is that the force driving studios to be literal sometimes to the detriment of more mainstream appeal? I'd like to hear some thoughts on this from the community, but no poll or anything.

I think it's a fine line, and that that's part of the translator's job. The goal SHOULD (I think) be to make a script that sounds as natural in English as the original did in Japanese... i.e., if it sounds somehow "off" or "weird," then it's just a poorly-done translation. However, finding the balance between being 100% accurate and being 100% natural is where the translator has to make some hard decisions, generally case-by-case, and it will NEVER please everyone. (Also, there's the fact that often, Japanese sentences simply CANNOT be translated 100% accurately into English (and vice-versa) because the gulf between the languages is simply too great... so even a translation that CLAIMS to be "completely accurate" usually isn't.)

To a native English speaker, I think that "Did you say faster?" just sounds funnier and more natural than "Thrilling, huh?" In that way, one could argue that it's a better translation. Robotech is, I think, a different story, because it wasn't trying to be a faithful adaptation, so they could throw in one-liners and such wherever they saw the opportunity. The result may have been entertaining, but it wasn't the original, nor was it trying to be. (And I'm not even getting STARTED on the problem of making dubs fit the lip-flaps... a hindrance which subs don't have).

"Sempai," I think, gets a pass for the reasons >EXO< and Jenius said...and because Hikaru is Japanese. Likewise (to take an example that just popped into my head), Hitomi in Escaflowne saying "Amano-Sempai" should be fine, but Merle saying "Van-sama" wouldn't, because Merle is from a very European-style fantasy setting, and Japanes-isms would just distract from that setting.

For me, the highest example of "Not-Literally-Accurate-but-ABSOLUTELY-catching-the-meaning" is from The End of Evangelion: Throughout the TV series, Shinji refers to himself as "Boku" (which is the "I" or "me" that young boys use), so it's shocking in EoE when he switches suddenly to "Ore" (the "I" or "me" that young men, often disreputable young men, use). The same effect was mimicked PERFECTLY (IMO) by having Shinji use the F-word in that line in the English version (sub AND dub). It gives the same sense of shock, for exactly the same reason that switching to "Ore" did in the original. And yet, there was a rather large outcry from fans about it. Go figure.

So, again, I think it's up to the translator. If you can translate it accurately and it sounds great in English, do it that way. But if you can't, you've got to use your own sense of language and intuition to figure out a way around the problem, and some people are simply better than others in that regard.

No matter what, though, SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE, will still hate you for making the choice you made.

EDIT: I want to point out that this only applies to storytelling and drama. Technical writing (such as, say, the mecha sheets of Macross Chronicle) is an entirely different kettle of fish (with its own problems, natch... as I'm sure Sketchley could tell you at length).

Edited April 16, 2013 by Gubaba

[DuelGundam2099]

And yet, there was a rather large outcry from fans about it. Go figure.

As someone that has been an an NGE board for 2.5 years they don't care about that anywhere near as much as the blatant translations errors (specifically the one where "angels are just different types of humans").

I think that "Did you say faster?" just sounds funnier and more natural than "Thrilling, huh?"

Both terms seem natural to me.

Edited April 16, 2013 by DuelGundam2099

[SuperSenpai]

This is an issue common in literature, where you have works written in foreign (or sometimes ancient) languages that require translation into English. There exists a spectrum with lexical precision on one end and conceptual accuracy on the other, and a translator's job is to find an appropriate balance between the two. Otherwise, you end up with either 1) a woodenly literal translation that is often very hard to understand and can actually obscure the original meaning of the text, or 2) a loose translation that paraphrases the essential idea, but misses some of the nuances of the language that can convey additional subtleties. Another way to look at it is that while (1) renders the work in English, it still requires an additional step of translating the *concepts* from one culture to another, whereas with (2), both language and concepts have been translated.

I think that the point along the spectrum the translator chooses can and should vary depending on the work translated, the intended audience, and the purpose for which the translation is being made. Since we are talking about anime and not scholarly pursuits, I really don't see the point of erring so much on the side of lexical precision. I know some people watch anime because they are really into Japanese culture and want to immerse themselves in that. And that's cool, more power to you -- but I just want to be entertained. For the purposes of entertainment, I think an overly precise translation (word-for-word) would distract too much because, while I'm hearing English, it would still require translating Japanese concepts to American concepts. And honestly, I'd rather not have to do that if I'm watching something for enjoyment. But that's just me.

Something like "sempai" or "senpai" is a good example. There's no word in English that conveys the same idea *and* sounds natural. But I think "big brother" is as good as it gets. In fact, I think it actually does a better job than "sempai", since it's a phrase that would be immediately familiar to an English-speaking audience, and it actually conveys the closeness of Roy and Hikaru's relationship. Those more familiar with Japanese can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe "sempai" does not require affection or closeness between the individuals, just seniority. At least in Robotech, Rick only called Roy "big brother" a few times -- enough to establish that they were like family, but not so much that it didn't sound natural since in Japanese, it is perfectly normal to refer to someone only by their title.

By the way, that ADV dub of Macross is terrible.

Edited April 16, 2013 by SuperSenpai

[Gubaba]

This is an issue common in literature, where you have works written in foreign (or sometimes ancient) languages that require translation into English. There exists a spectrum with lexical precision on one end and conceptual accuracy on the other, and a translator's job is to find an appropriate balance between the two. Otherwise, you end up with either 1) a woodenly literal translation that is often very hard to understand and can actually obscure the original meaning of the text, or 2) a loose translation that paraphrases the essential idea, but misses some of the nuances of the language that can convey additional subtleties. Another way to look at it is that while (1) renders the work in English, it still requires an additional step of translating the *concepts* from one culture to another, whereas with (2), both language and concepts have been translated.

I think that the point along the spectrum the translator chooses can and should vary depending on the work translated, the intended audience, and the purpose for which the translation is being made. Since we are talking about anime and not scholarly pursuits, I really don't see the point of erring so much on the side of lexical precision. I know some people watch anime because they are really into Japanese culture and want to immerse themselves in that. And that's cool, more power to you -- but I just want to be entertained. For the purposes of entertainment, I think an overly precise translation (word-for-word) would distract too much because, while I'm hearing English, it would still require translating Japanese concepts to American concepts. And honestly, I'd rather not have to do that if I'm watching something for enjoyment. But that's just me.

Something like "sempai" or "senpai" is a good example. There's no word in English that conveys the same idea *and* sounds natural. But I think "big brother" is as good as it gets. In fact, I think it actually does a better job than "sempai", since it's a phrase that would be immediately familiar to an English-speaking audience, and it actually conveys the closeness of Roy and Hikaru's relationship. Those more familiar with Japanese can correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe "sempai" does not require affection or closeness between the individuals, just seniority. At least in Robotech, Rick only called Roy "big brother" a few times -- enough to establish that they were like family, but not so much that it didn't sound natural since in Japanese, it is perfectly normal to refer to someone only by their title.

By the way, that ADV dub of Macross is terrible.

I agree with you... up to the point of "Sempai." AnimEigo put a little note, explaining the term "Sempai," and I think that's okay. "Big Brother" is as close as one can get in English, I suppose, but "Sempai" is okay. At least, it's better than, say, "One Piece" fansubs that claim that "Nakayoshi" cannot be translated, when clearly, it can.

Or, at least, because Hikaru is Japanese, I'd err on the side of caution there. If he were American, I'd try to come up with some equivalent. But, again, that's me, and my own personal attempt to "walk the tightrope."

As someone that has been an an NGE board for 2.5 years they don't care about that anywhere near as much as the blatant translations errors (specifically the one where "angels are just different types of humans").

Gosh, I've only been a member of EvaGeeks for six years. Please tell me more.

[DuelGundam2099]

You were at Evageeks? Nobody named Gubaba was there when I was there.

[Gubaba]

You were at Evageeks? Nobody named Gubaba was there when I was there.

Heh. It's not like "Gubaba" is an Evangelion-type name, is it...?

EDIT: Heck, I was "Colus VI" at Gundam.com...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Gubaba

[DuelGundam2099]

Did you go under another name then?

[the white drew carey]

Some dubs that are 'adapted' instead of translated literally, when done right, can be really good. I'm thinking Patlabor the Movie, and Wings of Honneamise.

Even the old Streamline Akira dub isn't that bad, and I have fond memories of it (enough so that the Pioneer dub seems somehow wrong to me).

I think subs are just much more preferable because a bad dub can ruin the experience.

[F-ZeroOne]

Translation is arguably a bit more of an art than a science. Jonathan Clements has pointed out that one problem is that Japanese voice actors are often cast with a particular "style" in mind that they're known for, and are given some licence to improvise during recording sessions. This can be a nightmare for a translator.

Mr. Clements has written a very good book on this, and other oddities of the international anime scene, though it does have the most-embarrassing-book-to-read-on-a-train title ever: "Schoolgirl Milky Crisis".

Another good look at translation issues is in "The Discworld Compendium", which looks at the difficulties of translating such British concepts as "Morris Dancing" into other languages and trying to get the meaning of a joke across, rather than just the literal adaptation.

Although I personally prefer subs, there a few dubs I'm quite fond of - the original "Project A-Ko" one, for example.

Edited April 16, 2013 by F-ZeroOne

[Archer]

I prefer english adaptations, so long as they are not horrid or blatantly misrepresent the statement. Unlike a lot of others, I'll watch a dub over a sub anyway, especially since I won't have to sit and read subtitles instead of watching the action.

I understand how some people can like one or the other though. Looking at my friends, it seems as though those or Asian background tend to like clear cut translations better (likely since the little nuances can be somewhat better interpreted, such as the word "senpai", and it's significance, as we've discussed), whilst a lot of native English speakers who don't know too much about Japanese culture will prefer the english adaptions to make it seem more natural.

I think Persona 4 (the video game) strikes a powerful balance between the two, keeping this as close to accurate as possible, all the while giving context clues when/if a word can be confusing to the unaware...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Archer

[SuperSenpai]

I agree with you... up to the point of "Sempai." AnimEigo put a little note, explaining the term "Sempai," and I think that's okay. "Big Brother" is as close as one can get in English, I suppose, but "Sempai" is okay. At least, it's better than, say, "One Piece" fansubs that claim that "Nakayoshi" cannot be translated, when clearly, it can.

Or, at least, because Hikaru is Japanese, I'd err on the side of caution there. If he were American, I'd try to come up with some equivalent. But, again, that's me, and my own personal attempt to "walk the tightrope."

Gosh, I've only been a member of EvaGeeks for six years. Please tell me more.

Well, if we assume that Hikaru is Japanese, then yes I suppose it would be appropriate for him to call Roy "sempai". And if we assume that Rick Hunter is American, then it makes more sense that he calls Roy "big brother". But now I wonder -- would a native Japanese refer to a non-Japanese senior as "sempai" if he were speaking to him in English?

Anyway, as I wrote previously, it's not like Rick calls Roy "big brother" all the time. And if we were to assume he is American, then I don't think an equivalent title is really necessary. After all, people in English don't normally refer to each other by title, whereas it's normal in Asian languages, and absolutely required when speaking to a senior. I think HG decided to use that term for RT because it connotes the family-like bond between Rick and Roy -- something that titles don't really convey, since by definition formality rather than familiarity is inferred by titles in the English language.

[Gubaba]

Well, if we assume that Hikaru is Japanese, then yes I suppose it would be appropriate for him to call Roy "sempai". And if we assume that Rick Hunter is American, then it makes more sense that he calls Roy "big brother". But now I wonder -- would a native Japanese refer to a non-Japanese senior as "sempai" if he were speaking to him in English?

Anyway, as I wrote previously, it's not like Rick calls Roy "big brother" all the time. And if we were to assume he is American, then I don't think an equivalent title is really necessary. After all, people in English don't normally refer to each other by title, whereas it's normal in Asian languages, and absolutely required when speaking to a senior. I think HG decided to use that term for RT because it connotes the family-like bond between Rick and Roy -- something that titles don't really convey, since by definition formality rather than familiarity is inferred by titles in the English language.

Yeah, but, as I said previously, Robotech (i.e. RICK HUNTER) isn't a straight adaptation and was never meant to be. So if you think a different name is needed for Robotech, more power to you.

If it's a straight adaptation of Macross, then yes, Hikaru is Japanese, and could conceivably use terms that are unique to Japanese society. Just as if you said, "John McClane shouldn't say 'Yipee Ki-Yai-YAY, M-----F-----,'" I'd say you were crazy. He's American. It's an American term. And, as such, it should be available to him in any language.

EDIT: I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not, so I assumed you weren't. My apologies if you were.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Gubaba

[Dio]

Well, if we assume that Hikaru is Japanese, then yes I suppose it would be appropriate for him to call Roy "sempai". And if we assume that Rick Hunter is American, then it makes more sense that he calls Roy "big brother". But now I wonder -- would a native Japanese refer to a non-Japanese senior as "sempai" if he were speaking to him in English?

Anyway, as I wrote previously, it's not like Rick calls Roy "big brother" all the time. And if we were to assume he is American, then I don't think an equivalent title is really necessary. After all, people in English don't normally refer to each other by title, whereas it's normal in Asian languages, and absolutely required when speaking to a senior. I think HG decided to use that term for RT because it connotes the family-like bond between Rick and Roy -- something that titles don't really convey, since by definition formality rather than familiarity is inferred by titles in the English language.

Agreed, there's definitely cultural differences to be considered. However, seeing the exact same visual scenes in 2 different dubs and getting such a different feel from them was a bit of a shock. I contrast that with Ranma 1/2, where Kuno constantly demanding to be called "sempai" translated much better to demanding he be addressed as "upperclassman" in the dub, because there was a much clearer purpose to it, and viewers less familiar with the nuances of Japanese culture were much more able to follow along.

Is there maybe a time/cost factor to consider? Does a studio save time by running quicker, more literal translations for scripts than trying to bend them a little and balance accuracy with accessibility? I have noticed with more recent anime (Cartoon network adult swim type stuff) that it seems to be trending toward more toward quick/literal, sometimes leaving quite a bit of the original Japanese names in place (such as Kekkaishi). I've never really been an "anime" fan, so to speak, it's been more narrowly focused on just a few series, but is that something that anime diehards prefer and might be asking for from the studios?

Also, I'm a little curious about the first thread response, is this something of a sensitive subject? I see some diverse opinions but very good points and discussion on all sides, one of the things I prefer about MW in fact. Or is this just a discussion that's been done to death already?

[Gubaba]

Agreed, there's definitely cultural differences to be considered. However, seeing the exact same visual scenes in 2 different dubs and getting such a different feel from them was a bit of a shock. I contrast that with Ranma 1/2, where Kuno constantly demanding to be called "sempai" translated much better to demanding he be addressed as "upperclassman" in the dub, because there was a much clearer purpose to it, and viewers less familiar with the nuances of Japanese culture were much more able to follow along.

Well, as I said, translation is an unclear, touchy-feely, case-by-case thing. Reacting to translations is the same. So I think, in this thread, you're just saying, "Here's my fine line, and here are some examples that cross it."

You can't take what you've liked and/or objected to and make any kind of translation guidelines out of them. Just a reference for "Here's what Dio specifically liked in these specific dubs, but may not like in a different context."

[Dynaman]

> sometimes leaving quite a bit of the original Japanese names in place (such as Kekkaishi).

When I was a lad in the sixties and seventies leaving Japanese names in was just not done, for almost anything except Kurosawa films. Most especially animation. The reason is that all animation was considered childrens programming and Japanese names were hard to pronounce and culturally unfamiliar (and the parents of said kids had bad memories of WWII). When the kids of my generation grew up it was in a world where Japan had been an ally (and a close one at that) for our entire lives. I think that has a lot to do with the switch, along with the cross polinization of ideas and words between the US and Japan. Sempai is another word, a large number of english speakers are now familiar with the term, when I was a kid that would not have been the case.

[F-ZeroOne]

Also, I'm a little curious about the first thread response, is this something of a sensitive subject? I see some diverse opinions but very good points and discussion on all sides, one of the things I prefer about MW in fact. Or is this just a discussion that's been done to death already?

When I used to attend anime cons, you didn't go into certain video rooms if you liked dubs... Actually, I'm kidding, but until DVD more-or-less made the issue irrelevant, dub vs sub was one of the burning issues in anime fandom. It didn't help that before a pool of established Western voice actors was created (the increasing use of voice-acting in videogames has probably helped in this regard), some early dubs were pretty awful, combined with what I will generously call liberties sometimes taken with source material by some companies (you think the altered backing music track on the Gunbuster DVD set was a crime? You should have seen the Kiseki UK DVD release! ). Add the tendency for fandom to get a little excited about certain issues, maybe newer fans who may have more passion than perspective [1] and less understanding of the production side of things, and strong opinions are sometimes inevitable.

Theres also the "Kobayashi Maru" problem - my favourite example of this is that in one volume of the manga version of Maigister Negi Magi Negima, a caption refers to "The Welsh Mountains, England". This may already be raising amused eyebrows among natives... It could be a genuine translation error, or it may have been an error in the original work - in which case the translator is now damned. Do they translate literally, in which case teh interwebs will attack them for a geography schoolboy error, or do they correct the error, in which case teh interwebz attacks them for not being accurate to the source material? Frankly, I'd rather take my chances in The Neutral Zone!

Another way is to look at things from the "other side of the hill". "Harry Potter" is hugely popular in Japan. In the books, one of his friends supports the "West Ham" football - sorry, soccer - team. The mere fact that it is "West Ham" is automatically amusing to a British person. It is unlikely the same reaction will arise in a Japanese person, so do you translate literally "West Ham", or do you subsititue something with a similar effect but which is more culturally relevant - "The Nippon Ham Fighters", for example?

[1] I used to feel a similar way about CGI animation, until I watched "The Incredibles" extras and realised, hey, CGI is hard too.

[sketchley]

I think one approach may be to mirror how the Japanese present subtitled translations to English movies into Japanese.

I'm doing this from memory on a Japanese show (in Japanese!) about it, but basically it is something along the lines of: what can the viewer read and digest within approx. 0.5 second and not more than 2 lines of text deep (it's irrelevant that the text may be on screen for 2, 3, 5 or more seconds)? As nice as it would be to do more, with more accuracy, that's the limit.

On occasion, I practice my Japanese reading skills by attempting to follow the translation, and believe you me, most of the time they're not as accurate as I'd like. But the average layman viewer is satisfied with getting the gist of the dialogue. The one example coming clearly to mind is the translation of "He's just a grunt", which was rendered, "He's only a ground soldier". It got the main point across, but completely misses the nuances of grunt (specifically the derogatory aspects).

With voice actors, it's readily apparent that they're "adapting" the intent of the script, and not reading a translation. This is most apparent in films like "Toy Story" or "Nemo". Those jokes are in the spirit of the original, but not the original ones per se.

Which reminds me of something a friend once told me about the same joke in English and French: the punch line in each version is the exact opposite!

Speaking of Harry Potter - lots of the students I teach love the story. They're absolutely blown away by the additional subtext when I talk about what the names of the characters imply. Weasely = weasel, the mort in Voldemort suggesting mortality or death (pending how strong you are in the Romance languages). Things like that. On the flip side, how many of use English speakers are getting the implications of Japanese character names? Shinji = believe in/place trust in, Rei = zero, cold; things like that.

Translating is no easy task, but perhaps its best to approach it, especially when it comes to dubs and (to a slightly lesser degree) subs, that the script that you're hearing is an adaptation of a translation (somewhat akin to a movie adaptation of a novel), as a true literal translation wouldn't make very much sense, nor fit into the time constraints of film.

Edited April 18, 2013 by sketchley

[Gubaba]

When I used to attend anime cons, you didn't go into certain video rooms if you liked dubs... Actually, I'm kidding, but until DVD more-or-less made the issue irrelevant, dub vs sub was one of the burning issues in anime fandom.

It always bugged me that subbed videos were cheaper to produce, and yet were always more expensive... but, as you say, DVD made the issue moot.

I'm doing this from memory on a Japanese show (in Japanese!) about it, but basically it is something along the lines of: what can the viewer read and digest within approx. 0.5 second and not more than 2 lines of text deep (it's irrelevant that the text may be on screen for 2, 3, 5 or more seconds)? As nice as it would be to do more, with more accuracy, that's the limit.

Yeah, that's true. I'm friends with some professional translators (English to Japanese) and they always complain about trying to fit everything into a short subtitle.

And I remember watching "Clueless" with one of my Japanese friends, and getting horrendously pissed-off at the Japanese subtitles. A massive part of the humor of "Clueless" is the invented slang the characters use ("I'm Audi" "Isn't she a Betty?" "I was totally BUGGIN'!") and yet, the Japanese subtitles kept representing what the characters MEANT (as opposed to what they SAID), using plain, normal Japanese. As a result, while I laughed a lot, my Japanese friend laughed a little.

My friends inform me that Japanese subs have to be all about meaning, when often, it's the WAY characters say their dialogue, and not the MEANING of the dialogue that's funny.

As such, I would say that the Japanese version of "Clueless" was a bad translation. In a comedy, losing the humor is fatal.

[Dynaman]

> And I remember watching "Clueless"

Anything where a play on words is a major part of the narrative often falls apart when translated. Add Ryhme into the mix (and, shudder, rythm and tempo) and the translation is almost certainly doomed to fail. I would HATE to be the person that has to translate Dr. Suess stories...

[F-ZeroOne]

sketchley - just to say thanks for the insight until how your students react to the "true" intent behind some of the Harry Potter examples given; its something I've often wondered about.

[mechaninac]

It's not just Japanese to English and vice versa that can prove to be translation nightmares when subtext, inuendo, humor, slang, double entendres, historical connotations, etc., come into play. Even with languages that have a lot more in common can be nigh impossible to translate verbatim without copious amounts of editor's notes (Ex.: Get Smart is impossible to translate into Portuguese without losing the double meaning of the word play of the title. When Mel Brooks's spy spoof series aired on Brazilian television it was retitle "Agente 86", because "Fica Esperto" or "Pega o Smart" just don't work too well or don't sound right); this is where Subs can be far more accurate as the translator has the luxury of adding contextual aids, but having notes pop up on dubbed works or having audio explanations inserted is almost always awkward.

I personally applaud the work translators do on dubbed anime as they almost always manage to get most, if not all, of the plot across in a way that is natural to the target audience. Dubbed works just make the medium much more accessible to even the most casual fans who prefers to devote 100% of their attention to following the visuals and audio without having to read endless lines of text that often flash by too quickly or lack enough contrast/definition to follow without having to pause and/or rewind.

Edited April 19, 2013 by mechaninac

[Dynaman]

I've always wondered why dubbed translation is not done more often (like is done with interviews). For high speed visual intensive shows (anime) it would allow the original VA cast to be heard while also allowing the viewer to keep focus on the visuals.

[Dio]

So to bring it back to my original question with some clarification, do anime fans these days seem to want more direct, unaltered translations? I've noticed an increase in things like original Japanese op/eds and theme songs, and greater inclusion of original Japanes names/titles for characters and creatures compared to say, the 90's, where it was more common to see translations take liberties for the sake of simplification. In the 80's it was even moreso IIRC.

I'm not saying more adaptation is better or vice versa, just curious if there's a trend for how translations are being done these days compared to earlier shows, and possibly some explanation as to the reasoning. As a fun experiment, comparing with other works that made it to the US, what would a dub of Frontier be like in each of the past 3 decades?

Edited April 22, 2013 by Dio

[Gubaba]

So to bring it back to my original question with some clarification, do anime fans these days seem to want more direct, unaltered translations? I've noticed an increase in things like original Japanese op/eds and theme songs, and greater inclusion of original Japanes names/titles for characters and creatures compared to say, the 90's, where it was more common to see translations take liberties for the sake of simplification. In the 80's it was even moreso IIRC.

Yeah, I think that's fair to say. As exposure to the original versions has increased, demands for fidelity have also increased. The same thing happened when Asian literature first started getting translated into English in the early 20th Century. The initial translation of the 11th century Japanese novel (and crown jewel of Japanese lit), The Tale of Genji was an extremely free translation, cutting a lot out (including one entire chapter), adding a lot in, changing character traits and motivations, generally making it more "Western," and other stuff like that. The first complete translation didn't come out until 1975, and another full translation came out in 2002 that hews even closer to the original.

One could argue that the first, very free translation built a Western audience for the book, but that's debatable. But at this point, people who want as close a translation as possible should be able to get it.

(And of course, I realize that books are different from anime, in that multiple publishers can officially release several different translations, and allow the public to choose. Fansubs, I suppose, work in much the same way, but they're definitely not sanctioned by the rights-owners.)

Plus, I think there's just an innate desire for people to know what's actually going on. In Voltron, for example, it seemed clear to me when I first watched it that "Sven" died (ditto "Knox" in Star Blazers), and for a long time, I suspected it, but couldn't confirm it. Still, I wanted to know, and it was rather gratifying to be proven right. Without a more faithful translation (or, er, magazine articles that discussed the original), I might still be wondering.

[terry the lone wolf]

I think script writers shouldn't be held to a strict 'this must be word for word exactly the same as the Japanese original". I rather have the best quality product that conveys that particular writer's feelings or talent. Sometimes I run the dub with the translated subs just to see the differences of story telling and method.

Edited April 22, 2013 by terry the lone wolf

[Gubaba]

I think script writers shouldn't be held to a strict 'this must be word for word exactly the same as the Japanese original". I rather have the best quality product that conveys that particular writer's feelings or talent. Sometimes I run the dub with the translated subs just to see the differences of story telling and method.

So again, if someone wants an accurate translation, they shouldn't get one, just because the translator is feeling "creative"...?

[F-ZeroOne]

Its a conundrum thats probably never going to be completely solved. There are times when its obvious - even when I was eight I realised that Jupiter probably didn't have blue skies and horse racing when I was watching "Battle of the Planets", but its also probably reasonably fair to say that many fans simply do not have the language skills to fairly criticise a particular translation unless it is pretty blatant. Its also arguable, as mentioned earlier, that the mere act of translation is creative in some ways - I've mentioned the Discworld Compendium, where Terry Pratchett (the creator of the series!) states that he was told some people think that "Reaper Man" is better in German, which as he points out is obviously some sort of triumph for the translator. I think the best we can hope for is what we have mostly seemed to have got, which is a reasonable middle ground for most fans with a number of exceptions on either side of the "good/bad" margins.

Edited April 22, 2013 by F-ZeroOne

[mechaninac]

I fall on the side of staying as true to the original material as possible when scripting for dubbing, but having the traslator(s) use best judgement when making creative alterations necessitated by launguage/cultural disparities that would render dialogue too cumbersome and/or nonsensical if adherence to strict translation is maintained (Ex.: if a joke or wordplay would fall flat, change it so that it's not longer an issue, but try to make the new dialogue match the context of the story/mood of the scene); it's not a creative licence, but a constructive alteration in order to further the quality of the storytelling to the intended audience.

Another area that can sometimes benefit from a little rewrite is in characters' names. It is almost always preferable to keep the original names, even though any meaning those names have in Japanese are lost unless you happen to know Japanese, but then you wouldn't need Subs or Dubbs in the first place, would you? However, there are instances where westernizing or renaming would be preferable in order to make it either more pallatable or less eye-rollingly stupid/weird. This can run the gamut of a minor respelling (Roy Focker to Roy Fokker... for obvious reasons) to complete name change (South Burning from 0083 isn't so bad, although a bit awkward; Quattro Bajeena of Zeta get's a lot worse but is tolerable -- if you speak Portuguese, however, that comes close to meaning 4 va9!na; but Full Frontal, on the other hand, is downright ridiculous to an English speaking audience and should've been changed to something a lot less dumb.

Edited April 22, 2013 by mechaninac