I am a weird macross fan...

[Gakken85]

I just finished Frontier.

I have to say... It's the best Macross show... even better than SDFM.

Thought I have a special place in my heart for SDFM, I think Frontier is a better story, and more powerful over all.

Really enjoyed it. And all the little nods to SDFM like the valkyrie curse, haha.

[Ozaline]

Yeah, even hardcore purists usually have a change of heart on a remake after seeing the Pachinko game SDF-M clips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVGFy3V7a7I

While I enjoy those clips emmensly, they actually feel a bit soulless next to the original animation to me... Their a bit too smooth and polished. DYRL is a good middle ground I don't need a reanimated SDF... I'd watch it if it was made but I'd rather see money spent on new projects.

Same suggestion/feeling there. Mac 7 is not for the faint-hearted.

I can't say it for others, but to me Mac 7 to Macross is more than G Gundam to Gundam, if you know what I mean.

That they're both awesome? Seriously I love G Gundam, it's corny as heck but it's the only Gundam not set in the Universal Century that I give a crap about (Well Endless Waltz out of nostalgia cause I saw it on TV as a youngin).

[Gubaba]

While I enjoy those clips emmensly, they actually feel a bit soulless next to the original animation to me... Their a bit too smooth and polished. DYRL is a good middle ground I don't need a reanimated SDF... I'd watch it if it was made but I'd rather see money spent on new projects.

I second this.

[peter]

I think the scenes from that Sega Saturn (or whatever console it was) game years ago were the best thing that came after DYRL itself.

[r_hunter85]

I have a similar story. I started off with Robotech and I only knew about SDF Macross and DYRL for years. I had heard about 7 and was turned off by the concept. But I loved Plus. Zero kicked major ass. I recently finished Frontier including both movies and was thoroughly impressed.

Now I'm watching Macross 7...It took me a few episodes to get over a pacifist Valkyrie and Basara's attitude but now its really growing on me. Now I cant help but think of Basara as a John Lennon in Macross universe (especially with those glasses). The story gets much more interesting around episode 12 and the characters become more endearing and the whole premise starts to make more sense. I say its starting to get higher on my list but it definitely starts kinda slow.

I haven't watched all of it yet so I haven't rendered a verdict, but I'm hopeful. And I'm enjoying it enough to recommend it.

[spanner]

I just finished Frontier.

I have to say... It's the best Macross show... even better than SDFM.

Thought I have a special place in my heart for SDFM, I think Frontier is a better story, and more powerful over all.

Really enjoyed it. And all the little nods to SDFM like the valkyrie curse, haha.

I have to agree with you there! I also just finished watching Frontier (late to the party I know I know..) and LOVED it! Yeah was cool all the references they made to SDFM!

On a further note I did like that Mirya still had (and used) her VF-1 in Macross 7! Shame it eventually bit the dust though..

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

For those who didn't like Plus, you guys are crazy.

Yeah maybe it didn't feel like macross but it was. Just not how you expected.

The idea of mind control through music and using hacked machines to mess with the technology that humans built to protect things is one of the controversial topics we actually face today with drones.

It's the sole reason Plus stands out from all the other shows as it seems to be the most adult out of the whole group of shows because it asks a question of whether we as humans are even necessary anymore if we have convenient and easy to use machine doing everything for us.

Are we the master of technology or is it the master of us? What is the difference between synthetic music and music that humans created?

Also the idea of overcoming challenges would resonate with anyone trying to invent a new thing that has never been tested before but has a high chance of failure. When Dyson tells Myung that you don't know if something is dangerous until you try it, that is not a sign of recklessness so much as saying ideas had to have come from somewhere and the first person we use to test a new thing may be risking his skin for others. It makes the reckless guy seem all that more important. Of course at the start of the Macross Plus OVA we just see the negative side to doing stunts but towards the end when Myung is whining about being such a failure because machines have taken her job, Dyson is a hero for telling her that she should never have given up.

Imagine if inventors never created new innovative designs? Imagine if Shoji Kawamori never wanted to create new Valks? This is the difference between human pioneers and machines which can only copy us. They can look like us and take out personality and patterns of behavior but not BE us and own our soul unless of course we become depressed and let the machines become our gods which we worship at the ritual of a concert like members in a strange cult.

To me Plus makes a great sci fi show that stands alone by itself, but maybe not so great as a MACROSS show in particular. Music doesn't have to be positive. It can be used to plant subliminal messages into our subconscious and make us feel relaxed and at ease but at the same time it puts us into a dream-like existence where we forget about the reality around us.

In this show you don't have music starting off as a happy love song, it is actually more like creepy stuff that puts people into hypnotic trances like people on drugs who have been put into a mind controlled state and can no longer reason anymore. The machines can fly planes for you, so why not sing? What's the point of creating new things and existing at all?

I thought that was an interesting twist.

I guess I am a bit biased though since I love the mecha design in this more than the ones in Frontier. And the dogfights had more "attitude" with close combat and dogfighting in equal measure. (this and Zero had the biggest impact on me)

For me Frontier was trying too hard to redo things we older fans had already seen but in a more up to date way. Much like when Hollywood does remakes to old movies. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. But is it as ambitious as taking macross to a new level of greatness by expanding the universe more and showing us things that we don't expect but blow us away when we see for the first time? No.

It is like making a sequel and the fans love it because they know what they like, but overall you know it must stick to a predictable formula as to not upset purists and therefore doesn't give you the same impact as when you were still new to macross.

I think the best part of Frontier was putting enemies that looked very menacing. I felt like I was watching something out of Tekkman Blade lol They obviously spent a lot of the money on the animation of mecha this time probably to make up for the poor battle animation in macross 7.

As for Macross 7: it didn't appeal to me mainly because the character Basara was too perfect as a person and could never die, never fail, and the enemies never seem to get the upper hand since he is basically a Jesus for macross that heals and calms everyone down with the music he sings. He is invincible and after a certain number of episodes as an older watcher, you get the feeling there is no consequences for putting your arse out there in the battlefield and maybe having a stray shot kill you through sheer bad luck.

Because music is soooo god damn powerful that its like having a instant win button. It's the silver bullet that solves everything. That was not what the original was about. In the original a bunch of mind controlled giants are ordered not to interfere with the protoculture (who were the creators of these giants) so that they never had to worry about their own monsters turning against them. All the music did was remind them of stuff before they became mindless killers for the PC who used fear to make them into what they were and told them to never harm small guys so they didn't have to worry about getting attacked. It brought them culture that they lost. It wasn't magic like in macross 7. Minmay could have easily been crushed or died. Her singing wasn't a silver bullet but it was one of a combination of things that won the Space War. Constrast this to Basara who basically can not ever be shot because he has plot armor. It goes against what "real robot" shows are about.

SDFM was a lot more cynical compared to 7. For instance the moment Roy asks Hikaru to join UN Spacy, it is just to serve the government and obey their orders. Hikaru when he first meets Roy asks Roy why he joined military and asked whether he was so proud of being a killer after he boasts about how many enemies he killed. (we see war through the eyes of people that do not take pride in using violence)

To me there is a sense that the characters were more 3 dimensional and realistic in SDFM. But that is just my opinion. I welcome debate.

The newer shows to me feel like they are retreading the old ground for commercial reasons. But as a mecha fan I do not mind so much as long as we get something new.

I think the reason people don't like Plus is mainly because it isn't a retread of what they liked from the original so it often get underrated for that reason alone. But if you just think of it as a Sci Fi story without caring about how great it has to be compared to other stuff it is great.

People who say the show was dated for its time are crazy. It was one that uses CG well in an anime for the first time. (ie it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb)

Edited August 7, 2013 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Hebime]

Yes, it had some lighter moments, but it didn't have hair metal rejects playing silly guitars WHILE they flew a giant Ronald McDonald fighter. Not to mention some small bleating child being consistently annoying and making me want to stab my ears.

Gakken, this sounds so much like I used to be it hurts.

My story of becoming a Macross fan is almost identical to yours, so I know where you are coming from. So let me give you one friendly suggestion, one fan to another: Relax, it's all good.

M7 was the last Macross I watched and yes, it did take a few episode for it to sink in. But it did, and even though I am a huge fan of Hard S/F, Real Robot, and all sort of grimdark dystopian stuff, I love M7.

Let me digress a bit. My first appreciation of classic style pulp/adventure blossomed after reading Number of the Beast by Robert Heinlein (the genius whose novel Starship Toopers inspired VOTOMS...er, at least it SEEMS to have inspired VOTOMS, I could be wrong). Heinlein's love for Edgar Rice Burrough's John Carter of Mars is evidenced from the get go.

A part of the story explained that all of the possible realities actually mirror fictions from our own. It's never determined if the other realities are created by authors thinking them up or if imagination is simply the act of piercing the dimensional veil to reveal other existences. but I loved the idea, because it gave a reason for all of the 'silly' S/F I used to turn my nose up at: Reality works differently in those dimensions. It allowed me enjoy a story with out worrying so much about the little details. So I dove right into the John Carter Books next and love them all. (well, never read the ones written by his son, heard they kinda suck)

Fast forward many years later, and I've watched everything but the often hated and despised Macross 7. I read Shoji Kawamori's answer to the questions of WHICH Macross is cannon, ie- the REAL Macross story. His response reminded me of Number of the Beast. I haven't seen anybody bring it up, so I will explain it now. All of the Macross shows and movies are just that: tv shows and movies made in a future time after the world has been devastated by war with the Zentraedi and mankind has gone to the stars.

He compares the macross shows to the annual historical dramas on Japanese TV. Anytime a certain event or character is featured, there are always differences in the portrayal, depending on the view of the people making the show or the outlook of the show. Differences like uniforms, mecha, and deviations in plot or characterizations are all explained by each show being a different fictionalized view of historical events.

[Note: the REAL reason for differences and deviations is the fact that sponsors and Big West have different requirements for each macross production and they give those parameters to Kawamori and he has to work within the framework he is given. Well, that or get a new job]

Specifically about M7 Kawamori has said that in the world of Macross there really was a 'Macross 7 incident' and the rock band Fire Bomber was involved, but much is unknown and/or classified. So the M7 show isn't what *REALLY* (heh) happened, just a fun adventure show based on the details that are known.

Macross 7 is the rock and roll fable installment of the Macross series. And if you can't enjoy a rock and roll fable, I think you need to step back, take a deep breath and take yourself 26% less seriously.

Now, no show is for everybody, so maybe M7 just really isn't up your alley. But if you give it a chance you may end up like me; a huge M7 fan with a Fire bomber playlist that you listen to damn near every day.

You ever make it to Osaka, I will take you to Fire BomBAR, the only Macross 7 (only Macross?) bar in Japan, and I will buy you a drink!

[RiderStrike]

I'll just share my thoughts as someone whose gone through everything (barring Macross II and FB7) in the last 8 months. Before I started watching Macross, I remember seeing only bits and pieces of Robotech when I was really young and it was airing on Toonami. I had also seen a bit of Macross Plus when Sci-Fi's AniMonday block was still a thing. But after a year or so of badgering by Crasis of the Preorder66 Podcast, I started watching Macross back in January.

There isn't much more for me to add on SDF, DYRL?, and FB2012 as everything has already been said about them; they're classics and as a package, they hold a special place in my heart. For me, the discussion gets way more interesting when you look at the following entries in the series.

Macross 7: I think this show is hella underrated. Yes, it's riddled with problems in it's first third, from stock footage abuse to pointless stories, but if you give it time and stick with it, I think it's a perfect successor to SDF. It keeps the themes and world building of the original series, but goes off in it's own direction, not crutching on things SDF did.

Dynamite 7: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Macross Plus: As many others did, I enjoyed Plus much more on my second viewing. I was a bit soft on it during my first viewing cause I had just finished watching SDF, and let's be honest here, that's a hard act to follow. After watching it again, I've learned that you've gotta approach each entry with fresh eyes as most of them are going for their own themes and concepts, not necessarily going for what was done in SDF.

Macross Zero: Zero had potential with a glance into the Unification War, but kinda squandered it to focus on the Birdman stuff... which was honestly boring as hell until the last episode. It was great to see Focker again, but I don't know if I'd rewatch this anytime soon. Way too boring.

Macross Frontier: I really did like this show when I started watching it, but then I noticed how many plot elements it recycles from SDF and 7... and then episode 21 happened. 21 through 24 made me hate everyone who wasn't Sheryl or the crew of the Quarter because they all started acting like dicks. But getting to the point, Frontier relies too heavily on homages and reworked plot points from past series, and when it tries to do it's own thing, it falls flat on it's damn face. Frontier left me torn, it has great moments and some of the best written characters in the franchise (Hey there, Sheryl), but the lack of originality overall has me smashing my head against the wall. HOWEVER, I do like the movies MUCH more than the series as they do their own thing and do it well.

Edited August 8, 2013 by RiderStrike

[technoblue]

I also got into Macross through Robotech. Around where I lived, the networks looped Star Blazers, Voltron, and Battle of the Planets though, so Robotech was a rarity. I didn't actually see the whole Macross saga in English until high school with a bunch of friends. That would place the time either in the late 1980s or early 90s. We didn't get into the other Robotech stuff, so my impressionable mind was spared from the dubs of Sothern Cross and Mospeada until DVDs became popular and I was out of college with a job. By then, I was well aware of SDF Macross and, when the anime flood hit, I eagerly picked up the Animeigo DVDs and the Manga release of Macross Plus. I started to wonder (as some of us do) why everything stopped there and this led me to both fansubs and imports, and the long trail of Harmony Gold debates.

So I'll just focus on the television shows...

SDF Macross: The show starts off with familiar sci-fi motifs: a damaged spaceship, giant aliens, a boost of high technology for humanity. The valkyries are a neat twist of animation and engineering that still fascinate me when I see them, although the music and protoculture themes introduced were much more enticing when I started to get into the mythology of the Macross universe. The middle part of the show became a real hybrid sci-fi/political/life-style drama, especially given Zentradi integration, the love triangle, and Minmay's rise to stardom. I really enjoyed the speculative nature of the whole presentation. This is part of the reason why I write professionally.

Macross 7: I watched M7 after Macross Plus and Macross Zero, but before Macross Frontier was released. I'm not sure how much that affected my bias. Anyway, I think it's great. Just as SDF Macross tweaked common sci-fi tropes of its day, M7 took tropes from SDF Macross and other shows from the 1990s and tweaked them further. For example, Basara is an antihero (there were many in the 90s, LoL).

But M7 does lead the audience by the hand too much in the begining. Unfortunately, Mylene was tasked with that job most of the time. She is in constant conflict with Basara, reminding us how he is not Hikaru or Roy or Max or just about anyone else who would take a stand against the new alien menace. Of course, that's the point. And part of Mylene's growth, I think, is coming to terms with who Basara is by the end of the show. However, even Basara changes---becoming more than what he intends to be. The whole Spiritia plot is more than just an excuse to repeat the same two Fire Bomber songs over and over again, which is why it is good to give the series a chance. I mean if we all stuck with SDF Macross for five episodes, then Minmay would have never left her Aunt and Uncle's noodle shop and Hikaru would have never joined the service.

Also, with regard to the colors of the VF-19 Fire Valkyrie, Ronny McD does have one thing to say:

Macross Frontier: I agree that there are many similarities to SDF Macross in the latest series. Ranka and Sheryl, for instance, both reminded me of Minmay. Ranka was an echo of Minmay as the innocent teenager when she was just starting out, and Sheryl was an echo of Minmay as the veteran entertainer worn down by that lifestyle. Of course, the protoculture theme is prominent again. And though it was present in M7, I think it took a bit of a back seat since the Spiritia plot was so complex. I agree with the comparisions others have made between MacrossF characters and SDF Macross characters, so I won't repeat those comparisons again. One thing I will say: I think MacrossF did borrow a bit from M7 when creating the Vajra---a mysterious attacking force that cannot be defeated with just protoculture.

Anyway, it's all good and when it's all over it will be like saying goodbye to an old friend.

Edited August 9, 2013 by technoblue