Scyla Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 I have the feeling that you are splitting hairs now. Going after the dictionary (elitist: organized for the good of a few people who have special interests or abilities) the 1/60th Macross collecting scene is elitist in itself. There is now doubt about it. But I assume none of you meant this. The real question is: were the 1/60th Yamato offerings worth the price? And every Macross fan has to answer that question for himself if he is interested in one of Yamatos toys. What is a fact is that there are no Macross toys for children. Even the Bandai re-issues of the 1/55 VF-1 is not for children although they were released in the 80s for children. Bandai released them for people who were kids when SDF Macross aired. And there are no Macross toys for children because no one would buy them (unlike the Transformers toys but they don't do to well either).
Vifam7 Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) The only point that I might understand from jwings is that, perhaps without a lower cost option alongside Yamato's high end toys, Macross may continue to have trouble garnering as much fans as Gundam or even Evangelion. Which means new productions of Macross anime will continue to be few and far between, Macross toys will continue to be expensive in comparison to toys of other franchises and the variety of ware never fully complete because other than Yamato, most other manufacturers are less dedicated or simply don't do Macross toys. And if Yamato won't do it, we're kinda out of luck. If Macross is to thrive, I think it would help to have toys that are more accessible. That doesn't mean end the high end toys. What I mean is having a Hi-Lo Mix. High end toys for high end collectors and lower cost toys for those who have lower budgets (young kids, HS students, college students). Edited February 15, 2013 by Vifam7
eugimon Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 there have been several lower end toy lines revoltech yamato gn-u and the aborted 1/100 vf-0 bandai hi-metal they all failed or weren't successful enough to continue. there's no point in making a toy for which there is no market.
Mechapilot77 Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 there have been several lower end toy lines revoltech yamato gn-u and the aborted 1/100 vf-0 bandai hi-metal they all failed or weren't successful enough to continue. there's no point in making a toy for which there is no market. exactly my point...they adjust to the market to suit the business case. its not "oh i want to make something most can't afford". its market adjusted...
Vifam7 Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 there have been several lower end toy lines revoltech yamato gn-u and the aborted 1/100 vf-0 bandai hi-metal they all failed or weren't successful enough to continue. there's no point in making a toy for which there is no market. You have a point. It could be argued that Macross fans are mainly limited to 30+ year old oyajis and there's no reason to pander to the younger folk or even try to garner more of them in.
slaginpit Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 there have been several lower end toy lines revoltech yamato gn-u and the aborted 1/100 vf-0 bandai hi-metal they all failed or weren't successful enough to continue. there's no point in making a toy for which there is no market. Bandai Hi Metal was actually pretty good. Not sure if I agree with you about being lower tier collectibles. I love my VF-19 Fire Valk. Its very decent, I believe high quality all in a smaller package albeit. I am not sure why so many are worried tho. This black hole will be filled quickly. Maybe Arcadia needs some time to look at pricing and logistics
Kicker773 Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 Lets not get our panties in a bunch here.. everyone is entitled to their opinion and lets give him his due. Everyone's perspective is different. There have been numerous affordable toys out there but if you think about it....hasn't there ever been a time when you sit down and play with your 10-20.00 action figure and say to yourself.. can't this thing be better? I'm sure you all did. Hell I have a ton of action figures of x-men, spawn, xforce etc. that I purchased from KayBee toys and toys R us.. but when I see what hot toys produces its like.. man I want that!!! To be honest I still have the 1/72 and 1/65 and transform them frequently. I do let my nieces, nephews and cousins play with the 1/65 ones at time (the bootlegs version) since I cherish the ones I have on dislay and still in boxes. You see what I mean? Some people perceive the 1/65 cheap, but I don't. I dust them and make sure the joints are ok. I take care of them like a 1/48 custom. So to each his own. I also have a frankestein 1/48 that I let my 3yr old niece play with and throw around. Back on topic. I'm glad Save has some insight on what is and will hopefully be going to happen. I'm still waiting for Graham's resource to say his version of corporate news delegation.
Archer Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Guys, let's be honest here. You can, in no way, shape, or form, can you be called "elitist" if you like to blow tons of cash on plastic toys Us at Macrossworld:Guy 1: Dude, I just bought like 45x VF-1 cannon fodder from yamato so I can make this awesome massive army squadron thing Guy 2: WOW! You spent that much money on Macross? Way to be elitist by showing off all your awesome stuff Translation to the real world: Guy 1: Wow, I just bought 45 VF-1 cannon fodders from Yamato! Society: You just spent 4500 dollars on japanese plastic toys derived from an animated cartoon from the 80s .....*condescending judgmental glare*_______________ The moral of that was that a toy collector cannot be elitist, as he is not purchasing ferraris Edited February 15, 2013 by Archer
EXO Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 You're an elitist if I can't do the same! Anything that you guys buy that I can't is excess!!!
eugimon Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 Bandai Hi Metal was actually pretty good. Not sure if I agree with you about being lower tier collectibles. I love my VF-19 Fire Valk. Its very decent, I believe high quality all in a smaller package albeit. I am not sure why so many are worried tho. This black hole will be filled quickly. Maybe Arcadia needs some time to look at pricing and logistics did the hi-metals cost as much as a yamato valk? No. Therefore, it's a lower tier item. That's great that you liked it, not enough people did.
vf_1s Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 Well, I have always consider myself (and any macross fans) as an elitist. Macross stuff is just so much harder to get compare to gundams and other mechas, due to lisence issues. As well, we have way less toys manufactures to make the valkyries, so everyone of them is a wish comes true, and we all waited a long time to see them come to life.
SuperSenpai Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 Why is producing Macross toys for kids even a concern? Do kids even watch Macross? Do any kids play with Macross toys or know what they are apart from people like us who buy them for our sons/daughters/nieces/nephews?
Reïvaj Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 I'd love to buy my 3 year old daughter macross stuff...but the reality is that I can't see spending that kind of cash on her for Yamato's crap. And I use crap from a TOY perspective. They aren't a toy...they are a pose-able statue or diorama. Yamato's are beautiful pieces of work but they are buy no means a suitable toy for a child. I wouldn't even give one to a 12-14 year old. I don’t know why you’d handle a Yamato valk to a 3 year old kid or even a 12-14 year old one, I definitely wouldn’t and something tells me Yamato either.
Kicker773 Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 LOL.....picked up 3 detolfs yesterday and will be spending my sweet time today with the nephew arranging hot toys figs in there and anime etc...so slowly the Macross room will remain pure...
jvmacross Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 Thanks to Save's contact....we now know the Macross line from the company formerly known as Yamato is not dead....and good things are coming soon (never doubted it)..... How did the discussion turn into labeling Yamato/Arcadia Valk collectors elitists? I collect Macross items from all categories....does that make be an uber elitist? Sigh.... Maybe Kicker773 is right...stop sharing your collection with other fans so as not to offend anyone....
eugimon Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 LOL.....picked up 3 detolfs yesterday and will be spending my sweet time today with the nephew arranging hot toys figs in there and anime etc...so slowly the Macross room will remain pure... you elitist, how dare you buy nice glass shelving units to show off your conspicuous consumption!
Kicker773 Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 you elitist, how dare you buy nice glass shelving units to show off your conspicuous consumption!
xrentonx Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Guys, let's be honest here. You can, in no way, shape, or form, can you be called "elitist" if you like to blow tons of cash on plastic toys Us at Macrossworld: Guy 1: Dude, I just bought like 45x VF-1 cannon fodder from yamato so I can make this awesome massive army squadron thing Guy 2: WOW! You spent that much money on Macross? Way to be elitist by showing off all your awesome stuff Translation to the real world: Guy 1: Wow, I just bought 45 VF-1 cannon fodders from Yamato! Society: You just spent 4500 dollars on japanese plastic toys derived from an animated cartoon from the 80s .....*condescending judgmental glare* _______________ The moral of that was that a toy collector cannot be elitist, as he is not purchasing ferraris Hahah...thanks for that Yes it is an over simplification...but entertaining nonetheless Edited February 15, 2013 by xrentonx
mechaninac Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 How did the discussion turn into labeling Yamato/Arcadia Valk collectors elitists? Envy.
Phalanix Posted February 15, 2013 Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Envy. LOL, as much as I find that answer funny, I think it's partly true. Just throwing this out there, but I wonder what is the age demographic that purchase these "elite" toys (more than one, multiples, etc.)? Those of us (I consider myself kind of a Macross hoarder as well) that buy these toys probably grew up with Macross, that said, we're probably into our late 20's / 30's (or older) where we're in a position with a career and financial stability. Now, compare that with those who consider the above "elitists" or "complain" about pricing - how many falls within this group that are still going to school / just getting out of school? Someone mentioned earlier about blue collar workers not being able to afford these toys - I don't think that's true in this day and age. There are many blue collar occupations that earn more than white collar occupations. So it is really dependent on one's career / financial income / sacrifice for this hobby. I've been on this forum for awhile and haven't seen anyone act like an ass or an elitist. Edited February 16, 2013 by Phalanix
anime52k8 Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 Now, compare that with those who consider the above "elitists" or "complain" about pricing - how many falls within this group that are still going to school / just getting out of school? I take exception to this. I'm in school and I don't complain about how expensive these toys are. I suck it up and make horrible financial decisions in order to get the toys that I want.
mechaninac Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 I take exception to this. I'm in school and I don't complain about how expensive these toys are. I suck it up and make horrible financial decisions in order to get the toys that I want. Why would you take exception to his statement? The very fact that you do not complain about the prices means you do not fall into the range of people he described.
VF5SS Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 If Macross is to thrive, I think it would help to have toys that are more accessible. I would say you could argue that is true for Macross toys, but the franchise itself hasn't really been dependent on toys for a long, long time. Music is still the real bread winner and now with character toys becoming a firmly established market, robot toys are not nearly as necessary as they were in the 1980's. Back when low toy sales would cause a sponsor to pull its funding from a show.
anime52k8 Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 Why would you take exception to his statement? The very fact that you do not complain about the prices means you do not fall into the range of people he described. pssst... I was making a joke about my own bad spending habits...
Valkyrie addict Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 I'm a professional now, when I started collecting Yamato's I was finishing school, I've delved into mush expensive hobbies, but I still consider Yamato's overpriced, mostly because there is always something faulty and floppy about each valk considering their price points. I love the VF-4 but after the honeymoon period have found many things that should not be present on a 360+ limited valk and dislike. I understand the immense engineering they go trough and the tough niche market for their pricing, but why they never improved on little things like ratchet joints is beyond me. I hope this Arcadia transition brings improvement to Macross valks if they keep their current bloated price points.
anime52k8 Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 I would say you could argue that is true for Macross toys, but the franchise itself hasn't really been dependent on toys for a long, long time. Music is still the real bread winner and now with character toys becoming a firmly established market, robot toys are not nearly as necessary as they were in the 1980's. Back when low toy sales would cause a sponsor to pull its funding from a show. You know, I've always found it odd that Yamato has never made animu statues of macross characters considering how big a market there is for said statues and that making animu statues is already the biggest part of yamato's business.
mechaninac Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 ...but I still consider Yamato's overpriced, ... You'll get no argument from me there. There is no denying that Yamatos are grossly overpriced; one only needs to compare MSRPs (Before anyone finds it pithy to point out that they end up being just about equally priced due to the scarcity of Bandai's products, I'm specifically talking about MSRP, not dealer mark-ups, Ebay, etc.) between Bandai's equally complex Macross Frontier offerings to Yamatos' latest VFs to see that the yammies cost far too much, and Bandai's aren't cheap to begin with; but it's the nature of the beast, you either suck it up and collect what you can within your budget or just exit the game... whining about it solves nothing and makes one look like a malcontent.
jvmacross Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 ...and now with character toys becoming a firmly established market, robot toys are not nearly as necessary as they were in the 1980's. Back when low toy sales would cause a sponsor to pull its funding from a show. ......you're right, I'm old school.....probably why I am not really into the character toys at all....back in the day all that was available were toys and figures of the valks/destroids.....and we liked it......we loved it!!!! Grumpy Old Man
eugimon Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 even if you ignore the fact that bandai is an exponentially larger company than yamato was, even if you ignore the fact that bandai didn't have to pay for licensing rights, even if you ignore the fact that bandai sold some of their macross products through their own store (and thus cutting out the middle man)... you're still left with the fact that yamato and bandai valks used different materials and thus have different manufacturing costs and that frontier valks were designed to be translated into toy form cheaply and efficiently while yamato had to figure out a way to make 30 year old anime magic designs work. saying that yamato's are overpriced because bandai has a cheaper product is.. baseless.
Valkyrie Magnus Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 Kicker please keep showing pics of your collection. Every time you post in the collection thread I always look and drool over the awesome pictures!
mechaninac Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Macross Frontier Valks being ready made for conversion into transforming kits and toy forms... granted. Bandai having more financial muscle and a far greater range of licences and products to offset the cost of production for any one toy line... granted. Licensing fees, maybe, but Bandai foots a great deal of the bill for sponsorship, production, advertising, etc of all the licences they hold as exclusive, so it's a minor difference at best. Bandai VFs and Yamato VFs are made of the same plastics, metals, etc. And Bandai tampo prints all liveries on the toys while Yamato gives you peel off stickers. Both companies utilize similar factories and comparable workforce to manufacture, assemble, package, ship their producst. I'll grant that Bandai's considerable size likely gives them an edge in their ability to negotiate better rates with suppliers and manufacturers, but not enough to justifly an almost 2:1 price ratio the Yamatos carry. Bottom line, Yamatos are overpriced, not because Bandais are cheaper, but because Yamato over-charges. Assuming that a comparison between the price disparities of similar products by two different companies is the sole supporting basis for an observation is born out by shopping for said products... baseless. Edited February 16, 2013 by mechaninac
eugimon Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 yes, bandai were producers but that means they also got a cut off of the tv shows, movies, concerts, all the little toys, all the merchandising that they were part of as well as the DX toys. Yamato doesn't get to shift the licensing fees to some other high volume, high margin product like a gashapon key chain toy. No, they're not the same plastics, metals, etc. Yamato and bandai used different grades of plastics, different grades of plastics require different tolerances and thus tooling prices for molds. Other than the vf-19, yamato also puts a matte surface on their valks, which is another added cost. And considering that there is noticeable mold related degradation on my 25g compared to my 25f, I'm going to guess that yamato uses higher quality molds to begin with as my cavaliers isn't anywhere nearly as degraded as my 1st release vf-1s. Also, the 29 and 25 share far more parts in common than the 19 and 17, for instance. Shared costs means lower per unit cost. If you want to say Yamato's cost too much for *you*, go ahead and say that. But saying that they are objectively overpriced by comparing them to a different product from an entirely different company is pretty silly.
locidm Posted February 16, 2013 Posted February 16, 2013 Few more reasons Yamato's prices (MSRP) are higher than Bandai: - Yamato offers to a much more niche market than Bandai's Frontier stuff. I'll bring out the old argument of large quantity = lower price. Bandai probably makes a lot more Frontier valks than Yamato, even though it doesn't feel that way. Fans for currently big hit movie vs. fans for a 30 year old anime is just night and day in comparison. You walk around Akihabara, you'll see a bunch of One Piece, some Naruto, a small presence of Macross Frontier stuff, and almost non-existing SDF or DYRL or M7 stuff. In fact I don't remember seeing any Yamato's offerings. - Yamato's releases are much riskier than Bandai, so they need a lot more safety. THey are also a small company that can't take a financial hit like Bandai can should a product fail to sell, so their risk management needs to be a lot more conservative. - last but not least, Yamato's engineering is superior. Bandai's MF valks look nice, but the transformation scheme and the fit just isn't as good as Yamato's valks. Most of my Yammies manage to stay tight and poseable through the years, while my renewal VF-25's are already loosening over time. Plus, I never know when I have my MF valks transformed properly, whereas it's pretty clear with Yamato's valks. There's a big difference there. While I wish Yamato's offering are a little cheaper, I understand where the high pricing come from. The fact that you can buy many of them at a discount down the road also helps!
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