Star Wars VII - The Force Awakens, on BluRay and Dvd April 5th, 2016

[Dynaman]

Yeah, we'll have to agree to strongly disagree on your spoiler tagged bit. Driver has been universally lauded for his performance, and it's a brilliant start for the character. Easily the best and most dynamic villain we've seen on film this year.

What is the world coming too? His acting or the direction is horribly weak.

As for the lightsaber fights, if Kylo is also supposed to be untrained then it gets a pass, otherwise it reminds me too much of the fight between Luke and Vader in Return of the Jedi - WAY too many spots where they left themselves open to a strike from the opponent. Fine for our heros who were untrained but really bad for a trained sword fighter.

[Vepariga]

The way i see it, the prequel saber combat was alot more refined and faster due to it being more commonplace. There would be lots of practice partners and training to get that good. As we step into the OT Saber training is almost non-existant. when we get to TFA even then Saber combat would be only taught by Luke,who after Ben and his Knights took it down, Luke stepped away.

So Bens training is pretty much self taught,unless we see Snoke being more of a hand in his training and not just a influence. Kylo WANTS to be Darkside, when he said he is torn he is talking about his feelings and the light side within him,he doesnt feel compeltely strong enough to carry out actions like kill his crew members for giving him news he doesnt want to hear, Once Han was infront of him he saw this as a way to fully remove a part of his life and light that lingers in his mind. He wants to be Vader but without the conflict of compassion,his father is the biggest pull for Kylo.

Then the fight in the forest,people say "he was beaten by someone that didnt even know how to use a saber" its a tool,Rey knows basic combat,she could use it. Klyo also kept beating himself due to the bowcaster shot that hit his side,and his mind would be all over the place after just killing his father. no wonder his saber skills didnt seem focused. I think Finn enrages him the most, Rey sure,but Finn really gets on Kylos nerves. Maybe becuase he was one of their own and he always pops up, as soon as Kylo saw Finn on the base with Rey,you could see him just going "goddammnitt!!! RREEEEEE"

[Dio]

Hopefully no spoilers to anyone, but I think this movie contains one of the best lightsaber duels in the entire canon.

What got me was the superb attention to detail. Everything the sabers touched either went up in steam, sparked or caught a little fire, from nearby tree branches to piles of snow that were just whicked with the tip as the saber spun.

I'm still trying to figure out

what was the black piece that hit the ground next to Ren's left hip after Rey's last strike? That whole ending strike was a bit of a blur to me after she forced his saber down toward the ground, and the first time I could swear she cut off his left hand, but upon second viewing it was still attached. I may need to see it on a smaller (tv-size) screen to follow it better.

[Dangard Ace]

My Top 3 Lightsabre fights with emotional impact:

1) RoTJ. Luke and Vader finally get to go at it as equals.

2) TPM. Darth Maul owning QuiGon and Obi Wan until that lame strike at the end.

3) TFA.

when Rey lights up the sabre and ANH music plays you know the new Jedi successor was just chosen.

[Duke Togo]

Outside of the Maul fight in TPM, the prequel fights were overly choreographed and rather ridiculous. Basically two people twirling swords with no sense of threat or danger. The Awakens duel is fierce.

[Dangard Ace]

Outside of the Maul fight in TPM, the prequel fights were overly choreographed and rather ridiculous. Basically two people twirling swords with no sense of threat or danger. The Awakens duel is fierce.

Exactly. They (PT)felt more like a Wushu exhibition then a fight.

The Dooku vs Yoda. At the speed Yoda was moving in that fight Dooku should've been Swiss cheese after the first 30secs.

ObiWan vs Anakin: Eh. Ewans McGregors acting was great but Hayden sucked all the life out of that fight

Rey vs Kylo felt more raw. Like there was serious intent to kill with each stroke. It felt dangerous.

[sh9000]

https://mobile.twitter.com/KyloR3n

[myk]

I would expect fully trained Jedi's to fight as they did in the prequels. Why wouldn't they? The prequels took place during a time when the Republic and the strength of the Jedi order was still at its peak; the fighting styles reflect that era. On the same hand, the styling of combat returned to a more primitive version as it did in FA, since all characters involved are still in light saber dueling 101. Makes total sense to me...

Edited December 24, 2015 by myk

[Chronocidal]

I had this discussion with my brother after a second viewing, about the final fight..

Near the end of the fight, Rey really hurt him, first with a stab to his left shoulder, then some sort of slash up his right leg which cut off a section of his cloak, then the slash that burned that scar into his face, which apparently cut off part of his collar.

Her final blow, which is what I think you're referring to, was while she was shoving his saber into the snow, and I believe she actually slashed right through the weapon itself. I didn't see it clearly either, and it'll probably take a frame-by-frame replay to see it, but I think his saber was broken in half and fell to the ground.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Chronocidal

[seti88]

may the force be with you.......https://www.facebook.com/pbwolf/videos/10153776700544166/

[areaseven]

may the force be with you.......

The Force is strong with this one.

[peter]

Holy schitt

[JB0]

As for the lightsaber fights, if Kylo is also supposed to be untrained then it gets a pass, otherwise it reminds me too much of the fight between Luke and Vader in Return of the Jedi - WAY too many spots where they left themselves open to a strike from the opponent. Fine for our heros who were untrained but really bad for a trained sword fighter.

In fairness to Jedi... what WE perceive to be an opening may not be the actual case, given it's a fight between jedi. They have telepathy, telekinesis, and some degree of precognition. To the extent that one jedi with a sword is an effective force against multiple trained soldiers with guns. I would actually EXPECT those abilities to drastically alter a swordfight's appearance, though in the original movies it's only wildly obvious when Luke is leaping twenty feet through the air doing somersaults.

In that context, I find the fight between ObiWan and Darth Vader on the Death Star interesting in how conventional it looks. Through the lens of the franchise, it has a very cautious feel to it, as though neither side is certain of the other's capabilities, but know better than to take their foe lightly. Darth's smack-talk aside, it looks like a fight neither party is sure they can win.

Of course, out of continuity, what happened is Lucas felt lightsabers should have a mass effect to make them feel more like real swords, and then in Jedi he was like "nah, lightsabers are weightless now, let's go wild with the acrobatics", a weightless blade looks a lot different in action than a weighted one, and I'm reading way too much into this. But that line of thought is a lot less fun!

[Duke Togo]

I would expect fully trained Jedi's to fight as they did in the prequels. Why wouldn't they?

Because they'd be dead if they fought like that. It's all flourishes and twirls and needless maneuvers. It's style over substance. The duel in Sith is the most anticlimactic confrontation in the Star Wars saga. It's horribly silly, and not once does it look like they're actually fighting against each other. There's no danger.

Edited December 24, 2015 by Duke Togo

[Roy Focker]

The first prequel light saber fight with Maul was good because it was our first exposure to flashy duels. Most of the flash came from Maul. He was this awesome master fighter that could hold off a 2 others. You thought such flash was just Maul's trademark. It wasn't. Every fight in the prequel was flashy.

[Mog]

^^I'm calling bullsh*t on your stance, Duke. If you want to argue about the parts of the fight after they go into the lava, then you might have an argument.

But the first half of the climactic fight, both of them are going all out.

The other thing to keep in mind is that Anakin's saber fighting style has always been to go all out, be all offense. While, Obi-Wan's style puts a premium on defense, only attacking when an opening is most advantageous.

At least, the two remembered to use their Force powers during the big fight.

Something Kylo "conveniently" forgot about, except when he tossed Rey up against a tree, pre-Finn fight.

You mean to tell me Kylo couldn't have Force pushed Rey once during their fight or Force-tossed a cut tree branch to distract her?

Edited December 24, 2015 by Mog

[SchizophrenicMC]

Because they'd be dead if they fought like that. It's all flourishes and twirls and needless maneuvers. It's style over substance. The duel in Sith is the most anticlimactic confrontation in the Star Wars saga. It's horribly silly, and not once does it look like they're actually fighting against each other. There's no danger.

While it is a bit over-the-top, and I personally feel the duels (especially the one in RotS) should have been toned down a notch, the notion of lightsaber duels between skilled Force-sensitive fighters as a nauseating game of strategy, response, and timing as each fighter tries to use their own powers of precognition to outmaneuver their opponent's, makes sense to some degree. I certainly prefer the duel in TFA- it felt more raw and swordy-killy- but I don't think it's fair to look at a fight between two telekinetic, telepathic seers trained in wizardry, wielding laser swords from the perspective of normal swordplay. You can take that to a further degree if you want to get caught up in it. Actual sword fights aren't like fencing at all, and are decided within the first couple of seconds, when whoever gets the first move puts his sword through his opponent. That's not very cinematic though.

The feeling I got from the lightsaber duel in TFA was

very akin to the feeling I get from the part of Luke and Vader's duel in Jedi after Vader taunts Luke about Leia. Fueled by anger, despair, with brutal strikes meant to kill at any cost- to simply overwhelm his opponent through repeated brute force. Unfocused, untempered, just rage. And that makes sense in these contexts, just not so much in a fight between clairvoyant Jedi whose method is to focus and preconceive.

[Duke Togo]

I have to disagree on the TFA duel.

Once Rey taps into the Force, she becomes focused and determined. Had she been fueled by rage and despair, she would have killed him. This is pretty clear to me after three viewings. She had atleast two opportunities to kill him, and instead she held back. She beat him soundly, and she knew it.

[Dio]

I have to disagree on the TFA duel.

Once Rey taps into the Force, she becomes focused and determined. Had she been fueled by rage and despair, she would have killed him. This is pretty clear to me after three viewings. She had atleast two opportunities to kill him, and instead she held back. She beat him soundly, and she knew it.

That's looking at her through the lens of Jedi Master, not where her character currently is. She was totally about to kill him before the ground split. She has no emotional attachment to him, and no built-up sense of discipline or mercy that Jedi training would have instilled in her. She has no awareness of Dark Side or Light Side, and her entire experience with him is "Vader wannabe who tried to invade my mind and killed Han." He seriously wounded her friend and tried to kill her, so I believe she would have ended it a la Obi-Wan v. Maul if there were not plot reasons and convenient interferences to keep him alive.

[Duke Togo]

That's looking at her through the lens of Jedi Master, not where her character currently is. She was totally about to kill him before the ground split. She has no emotional attachment to him, and no built-up sense of discipline or mercy that Jedi training would have instilled in her. She has no awareness of Dark Side or Light Side, and her entire experience with him is "Vader wannabe who tried to invade my mind and killed Han." He seriously wounded her friend and tried to kill her, so I believe she would have ended it a la Obi-Wan v. Maul if there were not plot reasons and convenient interferences to keep him alive.

Then why didn't she? She had plenty of time.

[Dio]

Then why didn't she? She had plenty of time.

I can understand inferring a short "pause" from her when she knocks him down, having mind-melded with him earlier and now seeing his defeated face instead of an impersonal mask, but she had her saber raised like she was very strongly considering to end it right there. She also had defended herself with lethal force several times already against armed stormtroopers. The movie would have drawn attention to her choosing and showing mercy, or rejecting the Dark Side, if it were meant to be a plot point, but it would have come out of nowhere and not fit her character at this time, so the plot decided for her.

In the novelization, however, she feels a strong urge to kill him, almost like a voice in her head, and recoils from it as a conscious choice because it frightens/disgusts her. The quake instead happens as she turns away from him to go rescue Finn (neutralizing Ren's potential as a further threat). That agrees more with your assertion.

I have no doubt she will struggle with his potential redemption in future films, but per the film, this fight was ended by plot, and not character, and I think it's a better story direction given the facts thus far. Luke took a shot or two at Vader in ANH when he saw Ben cut down, but held back in RotJ after some character development. I think arguing that Rey chose not to kill Ren is like arguing that Luke missed the ANH shot on purpose.

[Duke Togo]

No,

her saber was not raised, her hands were down at her sides. I've seen this movie three times already, I remember the scene quite well. She had two chances to kill him in that fight, and took neither of them.

[Dynaman]

Then why didn't she? She had plenty of time.

Bad writing is the only thing that comes to mind.

Gotta admit to agreeing with Duke on many of the prequal fights, they were over the top and not in a good way either. I also despise most things I believe are being called "Wushu" that may have something to do with my opinion. The TRUE (and ONLY true) mark of a master martial artist (in any form of martial art) is one who is able to conserve energy while forcing the opponent to use theirs. Fancy Martial arts in the movies do the reverse.

[Duke Togo]

Bad writing is the only thing that comes to mind.

Because she wasn't channeling the Dark Side.

[Gubaba]

I mostly agree with Keith (for once), although I think I liked the movie more than he did.

But yeah, since Lucas said they discarded his version, I really want to see what his version was.

[Mommar]

Speaking on the prequel fights, totally there for the audience entertainment. As someone who has been in several high level hand-to-hand fights, as well as several with weapons (once bladed...) I can say that most of it is positioning. You don't make unnecessary moves or take unnecessary chances while getting into the other persons head and anticipating moves. Having magical, space-wizardry precognition would only make the fights less interesting to witness.

[peter]

The actor that played Maul studied wushu....that's why the fight in PM looked flashier. Original trilogy saber battles, actors had kenjutsu style sword instruction

[myk]

Because they'd be dead if they fought like that. It's all flourishes and twirls and needless maneuvers. It's style over substance. The duel in Sith is the most anticlimactic confrontation in the Star Wars saga. It's horribly silly, and not once does it look like they're actually fighting against each other. There's no danger.

I agree with you, especially when you look at Episode 3's lava duel; all the twirling and showboating was ridiculous. Do you guys remember the one part of the duel where Anakin and Obi spin their light sabers in front of each other for like 10 seconds but don't make any effort to hit each other? It was the dumbest thing I had ever seen, BUT...I see it was necessary to differentiate their style of fighting to what we saw in the OT, because the dueling in those movies looked.....too simple? Lucas sought to stand apart from the OT and, for better or for worse, they did just that with the ludicrous light saber battles, and all of the CGI and all that other BS. However, I still like to think that the different styles showcase different time periods in the history of the Republic and the Jedi Order. Are the fights in the prequels absurd? Yes, but I appreciated the effort to dazzle the viewer with the possibility of what a trained, seasoned Force user could be like in light saber/melee/physical combat...

Edited December 25, 2015 by myk

[derex3592]

The one duel in the prequels that is better for me is one of the shortest but also perhaps the most interesting. The Anakin vs Dooku in Ep 2 right before Yoda shows up. If you watch it, it's like Anakin is mimicking Dooku before Dooku does his move. It's pretty cool, especially after it goes into complete darkness. I read somewhere it was shot to be longer, but was edited down. I also like the ObiWan vs Maul after Liam Neeson gets it. Those two guys were definitely goin at it fast, lots of rehearsals, and it showed.

[Duke Togo]

Yeah, the Obi Wan/Maul fight is tremendous.

[MILKAUTICO]

hello people some theory about this?

:blink: WTF!!!

[miles316]

hello people some theory about this?

:blink: WTF!!!

What that Jar Jar mind tricked SUbulba into attacking him?

[Dio]

No,

her saber was not raised, her hands were down at her sides. I've seen this movie three times already, I remember the scene quite well. She had two chances to kill him in that fight, and took neither of them.

Fair enough, and I think we're really in agreement over the generalities,

but I still stand by there being no moment of intentional reflection on her part. Maybe some confusion or a brief pause to consider the situation, but nothing was shown that clearly depicted her making a choice to spare him over finishing it.

Once she tuned into the Force she did get more focused, predictive and precise. She beat him, knocked him down, but was indecisive about pursuing for a second once the focus had passed (maybe even a momentary "did I seriously just do that?!"), and it let him escape.

In that regard, yes, she didn't have a killer instinct or rage fueling her attacks, but I also think she wasn't given the opportunity to really make a moral decision after the brief moment of pause. If that were meant to be shown, she would have deactivated her lightsaber and told him to go rethink his life or something.

[electric indigo]

Regarding the antagonists, I found Kylo Ren quite well done with an impressive presence from Adam Driver. The weaker character was Snoke, IMO. The Voldemort-like design didn't impress me, and conceptually, I would have found it more interesting to have some Vader cultists like Ren explore the lost knowledge of the Dark Side (the Sith are gone, after all) and bringing it back to life with their very deeds, than to have a Big Bad from the beginning.

[derex3592]

100% agree with that sentiment.

Edited December 26, 2015 by derex3592