Macross Plus in BD!!! OVA w/ English Dub & Movie w/En

[Rabidweezil]

I don't think it's mere speculation when the contents of the International version of Macross Plus with the different dub is a known fact and was repeatedly brought up by people here with first hand knowledge. I realize it's not the ideal version but I'd put my money on a Japanese company using the audio materials they have on hand and released before rather than using the version they worked hard to replace and is residing with a company they no longer do much business with.

Right, people brought it up and talked about it. I read that. But until Renato verified several pages back after he viewed it, it was not confirmed. So unless there was an official announcement that I missed, anything else was an assumption. Even if it was a damn good one, it was still not official information.

Which the definition of speculation is: an opinion based on incomplete information, a conclusion, theory, or opinion on incomplete facts or information.

Which is why I used that word

Edited July 14, 2013 by Rabidweezil

[Deadeye_281]

Right, people brought it up and talked about it. I read that. But until Renato verified several pages back after he viewed it, it was not confirmed. So unless there was an official announcement that I missed, anything else was an assumption. Even if it was a damn good one, it was still not official information.

Which the definition of speculation is: an opinion based on incomplete information, a conclusion, theory, or opinion on incomplete facts or information.

Which is why I used that word

I think weezil hits it on the head. I know when I ordered this, Renato hadn't posted his first hand review as yet but if he had I would have given the new boxset a pass. I also knew that there were sub issues with the movie edition but that didn't bother me as I prefer the OAVs anyway. I'd still like to know what happened to the old Manga dub for episode 4.

It's too bad really as the Mac+ BD looks absolutely gorgeous in HD. Oh well, lesson learned I guess. Glad I kept the old DVDs.

[Gubaba]

I think weezil hits it on the head. I know when I ordered this, Renato hadn't posted his first hand review as yet but if he had I would have given the new boxset a pass. I also knew that there were sub issues with the movie edition but that didn't bother me as I prefer the OAVs anyway. I'd still like to know what happened to the old Manga dub for episode 4.

Well THAT was definitely covered previously: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=37865&p=1058159

[Deadeye_281]

Well THAT was definitely covered previously: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=37865&p=1058159

Yup. It's always the posts that you miss that turn out to be most important.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Have the subs grown on anybody yet? I'm watching it right now, and I can live with it LOL. Wish they converted to widescreen format for the movie.

[Gubaba]

Have the subs grown on anybody yet? I'm watching it right now, and I can live with it LOL. Wish they converted to widescreen format for the movie.

But it wasn't widescreen to begin with... they only way to make it widescreen would be to hack off the top and bottom of the picture.

[technoblue]

Complaining for the sake of complaining is nothing new. I mean, we have a remastered Macross release with an English track and English subtitles, but you cannot please everyone. It is good that the Manga DVDs are still out there in the wild. Maybe those discontent with the final result will learn to re-encode audio, spin a hybrid Blu-ray, and put that energy to positive use?

Then again, maybe not. If we close our eyes, then it looks the same and we can pick whatever sounds better.

(In case I have to be obvious, my comments above are sarcasm. Personally, I do not understand how the presence of English in any form can be a negative. Have multi-language tracks or subtitles been offered in any other Macross release direct from Japan? There is bound to be a learning curve. Especially, if this is a sign of something new.)

Edited July 15, 2013 by technoblue

[Rabidweezil]

Complaining for the sake of complaining is nothing new. I mean, we have a remastered Macross release with an English track and English subtitles, but you cannot please everyone. It is good that the Manga DVDs are still out there in the wild. Maybe those discontent with the final result will learn to re-encode audio, spin a hybrid Blu-ray, and put that energy to positive use?

Then again, maybe not. If we close our eyes, then it looks the same and we can pick whatever sounds better.

(In case I have to be obvious, my comments above are sarcasm. Personally, I do not understand how the presence of English in any form can be a negative. Have multi-language tracks or subtitles been offered in any other Macross release direct from Japan? There is bound to be a learning curve. Especially, if this is a sign of something new.)

I said it before, it's a great world we live in where people can be happy and unhappy about different things. Otherwise if we all liked/disliked the same stuff this would be a pretty boring planet.

Personally I don't understand the mentality of "it's Macross, it's remastered with English, you should like it no matter what!" There is a difference between good and good enough. Sure I understand the International dub issue in regards to availability and rights. However, as a person that has ONLY watched the Mange version (despite the wrong music) I appreciated the consistent GOOD voices throughout the 4 OVA episodes. While the alternate dub is "OK". The voice changes (the Guld and Yang VO's are horrid) are distracting and take a bit away from the epic story for me. Especially on the LAST and most emotionally charged episode.

The whole thing is similar to the uproar over the Star Wars trilogy changes Lucas has made throughout the years. Personally I'm not a huge SW fan, so I really don't care. But for a lot of people, they grew to love and enjoy the unaltered SW trilogy. Then along came the special editions to replace them. I can see why they were upset. Changes to what you already really liked doesn't always work for everyone.

As far as the Movie version subs, I have yet to watch it but I have seen the screencaps posted here and they are pretty silly. I have always lived by the saying, "If you're going to take the time to do something, take the time to do it right." How much more would it have cost to add English subtitles on the Movie that were actually property translated and more accurate? You can't tell me there wasn't someone around with decent English skills that could have proofread the sub script and made corrections? Hell, they could have sent me the copy and I would have done it for free.

Again, it's the difference between good and good enough.

[technoblue]

As far as the Movie version subs, I have yet to watch it but I have seen the screencaps posted here and they are pretty silly. I have always lived by the saying, "If you're going to take the time to do something, take the time to do it right." How much more would it have cost to add English subtitles on the Movie that were actually property translated and more accurate? You can't tell me there wasn't someone around with decent English skills that could have proofread the sub script and made corrections? Hell, they could have sent me the copy and I would have done it for free.

Again, it's the difference between good and good enough.

You are right, I cannot tell you whether or not there was someone around with decent or better English Language skills who might have done a better translation. As for the dub, I also cannot tell you anything about what happened with those resources. These are multiple unknown variables. I'm not trying to force an opinion, I am merely baffled because I do not define the set as good enough but as a good start. My positivity is focused on pointing out what was done right and encouraging more of that in the future. I guess it may be a differect tact, but I do not see it as glossing over criticism.

I will say that I think that vaulting this issue to the level of Star Wars proportions is a stretch, but (again) that is my opinion and I am not saying that yours is incorrect. Are the movie subtitles funny? Yes. Manga's were awkward too, though. Is the new OVA dub of episode 4 mismatched? I think one has to be a fan of the dub to be pissed about this one. I prefer subtitles, so it doesn't bother me, but fans like me lose out anyway since subtitles were not included for those four episodes.

[locidm]

it all comes down to money. There is a budget to the blu-ray's production, and a (likely tiny) amount of that budget goes towards the sub. If the budget doesn't allow for additional proof reading, it won't be done (unless someone on the project is both skilled and dedicated enough to do it for free).

I'd rather them say,

"let's get subs onto the bluray disc with the available budget, even if it ain't perfect",

than say,

"since we don't have the budget to get the subs perfect, let's forget about it".

Scenario 1 is probably what happened to MP. Hopefully they'll either do the same for MF boxset (or even better has a bigger budget for it). If I have to choose, I'd pick slightly subpar subs over no sub any day.

Edited July 15, 2013 by locidm

[TheLoneWolf]

it all comes down to money.

Bingo! Someone give that man a gold star.

Budgets and deadlines are the two factors that galvanize every production. My guess is that as this project was nearing its completion, someone at Bandai Visual realized that they still had a small amount of money left in their budget and decided to squeeze in some last-minute English subtitles.

Could they have used a better translator? Sure. But with such short notice and a small amount of money, they probably had to accept whatever translator they could get. If this set manages to sell better than previous Macross Blu Ray sets, then whoever inserted these subtitles might be able to convince Bandai to budget in English subtitles from the get go, resulting in better quality subtitles.

[Rabidweezil]

I see what you guys mean. Emailing a script to someone that is moderately proficient in English for proofreading probably cost anywhere between $0 to maybe $200 at most. That amount of money would no doubt push any budget over the edge.

[sketchley]

I see what you guys mean. Emailing a script to someone that is moderately proficient in English for proofreading probably cost anywhere between $0 to maybe $200 at most. That amount of money would no doubt push any budget over the edge.

Who says that they didn't already do that?

Question: do you know how much it costs to do a translation (inclusive of proofreading)?

￥10-￥16 per word appears to be the current going rates for low-end translations (you know, the type that appears in the BD). That's not including things like shipping the materials to/from the translation agency, and the time spent preparing the materials to be translated, liaising with the translator, negotiating the contract, paying the bill, and internal company accounting. [and it's completely ignoring things like timing, and the limitations of what the average viewer can read and comprehend while watching (ie: no more than 2 lines of simple text that capture the gist of what's being said; and working the translation into such narrow parameters].

So you're $0 to $200 figure is laughable, at best.

Nevertheless, I'm going to reiterate what someone said earlier in this thread: you just can't satisfy some people.

Edited July 16, 2013 by sketchley

[Rabidweezil]

Who says that they didn't already do that?

Question: do you know how much it costs to do a translation (inclusive of proofreading)?

￥10-￥16 per word appears to be the current going rates for low-end translations (you know, the type that appears in the BD). That's not including things like shipping the materials to/from the translation agency, and the time spent preparing the materials to be translated, liaising with the translator, negotiating the contract, paying the bill, and internal company accounting. [and it's completely ignoring things like timing, and the limitations of what the average viewer can read and comprehend while watching (ie: no more than 2 lines of simple text that capture the gist of what's being said; and working the translation into such narrow parameters].

So you're $0 to $200 figure is laughable, at best.

Nevertheless, I'm going to reiterate what someone said earlier in this thread: you just can't satisfy some people.o

You must have missed the part where I said 0$ to $200 for proofreading a SCRIPT (the end product AFTER a translation). Not the whole translation process itself. Like having multiple sources verify your work?

Seriously, we're talking about someone verifying English subtitles for accuracy, not some island language only 10 people speak. I refuse to believe it was that hard to find someone capable for a relatively modest fee.

But whatever, if you people are that easily satisfied with sub-par work, then be my guest. The same thing is going on in the 1/72 Bandai model thread. Is it a surprise that some of the same people are defending that too?

Edited July 16, 2013 by Rabidweezil

[sketchley]

Why are you assuming that proofreading is separate from the translation?

The same thing is going on in the 1/72 Bandai model thread. Is it a surprise that some of the same people are defending that too?

Apples and oranges, my friend. Apples and oranges.

Edited July 16, 2013 by sketchley

[Rabidweezil]

Why are you assuming that proofreading is separate from the translation?

Apples and oranges, my friend. Apples and oranges.

Because maybe your translator sucks and you should get a second opinion on his work just to be sure?

And no, it's not apples and oranges. It's the same "sing praise or STFU" mentality.

[Tochiro]

Because maybe your translator sucks and you should get a second opinion on his work just to be sure?

And no, it's not apples and oranges. It's the same "sing praise or STFU" mentality.

No, its more of a mentality of 'be thankful we get anything at all.' Which is the fact of the matter.

Bandai wasnt obligated to put English on the release at all, but they did. And they made it region free. So rather than bitching about subtitle quality, most long term Macross fans are going to be amazed that this has happened at all since its the first time such a thing has EVER been done in 30 odd years. That makes the sheer existence of English on the set note-worthy, regardless of quality.

Now, could a better job have been done? Sure. Could a better job have been done as cheaply as you seem to think? No.

As someone who deals with them quite often, I can assure you that most of the more affordable translation houses that are in Japan are TERRIBLE. They have quality control and versioning issues and often fail to do their due dilligence on the IP they are working on. Many of their translators aren't native speakers, meaning that grammar gets botched, and on the few times that a native speaker works on a project they arent familiar with the source material meaning a lot of the details end up translated too literally or just plain wrongly. However, for a product aimed squarely at a Japanese market where the English is an afterthought, these are the only sorts of places that can be afforded. Then theres the problem of errors slipping in when the subtitles are actually implemented - since the staff actually putting them on the disc wont speak a word of English - in Japan, English might as well be rare island language, especially in locally focused industries such as anime and manga - practically no-one speaks it. And sending a check disc back to the translation house would double QA time, not to mention the cost of implementing fixes.

To surmise, could things have been done better? Certainly. Could they have been done within budget? Unlikely. Do you have any idea what you are talking about regarding the processes and costs involved? It would appear not.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Tochiro

[treatment]

Weird that they (BV or BW) didn't just put a call out to overseas fans/fansites (like MW) about needing a new translation and stuff? I mean, they already know MP have had a much stronger overseas market since it came out.

I reckon most fansubbers would have just given them their grammatically-correct translations for free and no-cost. No credit or shoutouts even needed.

There was a precedent for this already with at least Animeigo asking and being given Yawara's english-subs for free by the subbers.

Heck! Why didn't they just contact Neil Nadelman directly and work out some kind of deal?

Double-Heck! We got some MW-people over there in Japan already for quite awhile now! For the love Sharon, they could've contacted them to do some grammar-checks at the very least.

Edited July 16, 2013 by treatment

[locidm]

And look at where animeigo is now.....

I'd have a hard time believing that BW will let go of its ego and ask fan's help for free, so that they can satisfy a market that they don't really care about.

[treatment]

And look at where animeigo is now.....

They're right here: http://animeigo.com/

They're still in business of selling excellent stuff.

I'd have a hard time believing that BW will let go of its ego and ask fan's help for free, so that they can satisfy a market that they don't really care about.

What ego?

For an advertising company, I can't believe they have any ego at all if they let such a sucktacular attempt of engrish-subbing be something to associate with their company and their product permanently, regardless of the market they don't really care about. They really shouldn't have bothered with any kind of subbing at all.

We'll just see how GiTS:Arise's english-subs fare next week to compare and contrast. Maybe whoever was in charge of that project will also cheap out and half-assed it to counter the engrish-subs of MPlus-movie.

[sketchley]

Thanks Tochiro. You said what I was aiming for more succinctly and, well, better.

Weird that they (BV or BW) didn't just put a call out to overseas fans/fansites (like MW) about needing a new translation and stuff?

There's one big problem with that: it endorses fan translators and their illegal distribution of the material. And that's one Pandora's box we'd rather keep closed.

[technoblue]

Isn't animeigo sticking to subbing live action work now? I thought Yawara! and You're Under Arrest! were the last nails in their anime coffin. Anyway, for Macross I do think something is better than nothing. Seeing an imporvement to the subtitles would be nice, but my business savvy is low so I would be lost in that forest.

[locidm]

Technoblue and sketchley covered what I had wanted to say. Thanks!!

[Rabidweezil]

No, its more of a mentality of 'be thankful we get anything at all.' Which is the fact of the matter.

I really can't imagine going through life with such low standards and exceptions on what you spend your money on, but if it's gotten you this far, more power to you.

[Tochiro]

They're right here: http://animeigo.com/

They're still in business of selling excellent stuff.

What ego?

For an advertising company, I can't believe they have any ego at all if they let such a sucktacular attempt of engrish-subbing be something to associate with their company and their product permanently, regardless of the market they don't really care about. They really shouldn't have bothered with any kind of subbing at all.

We'll just see how GiTS:Arise's english-subs fare next week to compare and contrast. Maybe whoever was in charge of that project will also cheap out and half-assed it to counter the engrish-subs of MPlus-movie.

Actually, for advertising companies in Japan its ALL about ego. They hold the power. Unless you have one of the more popular brands to shop around, you piss them off at your peril.

Arise's subs will be fine because they are being done by the same team that does the Gundam Unicorn and Yamato 2199 subs and is made up of mostly native speakers (although there are times when their subs requires some tweaking). These two titles had an actual localization budget and are part of Bandai's 'Unicorn biz strategy' - namely, getting English subs on newer titles that they think there's a hardcore enough fandom for abroad to give them the option of importing. Macross Plus is not a newer title and therefore wasn't a part of this strategy. The subs were somehow slipped in there as a concession to international fans under the guise of an 'International version' for the domestic market (ie, so as not to aggravate foreign licensors and certain licensing issues).

I really can't imagine going through life with such low standards and exceptions on what you spend your money on, but if it's gotten you this far, more power to you.

You really dont understand the history and politics surrounding the Macross franchise, do you?

The fact that we would never get the best of what macros had to offer in the West dawned on me just under 20 years ago, so I chose the logical option - put some time into studying Japanese so it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Even as someone who doesn't need the subs on Macross Plus, while I can see their flaws I can still understand their significance and appreciate the effort for what it is, given the circumstances. Would I be so forgiving of this quality on, say, the Yamato 2199 BD's (which I also collect/support)? No. But the unfortunate fact of the matter is that Macross is in a somewhat...unique situation and, as such, cannot have the same standards applied. It's just not realistic.

But hey, if you want to sit on the internet and complain about products that arent intended for or released in your region, put together in a country where despite 99.99% of the population not understanding your language, they have attempted to put some sort of English on the disc, risking licensing issues in the process, well then....all the more power to you.

[Macross_Fanboy]

But it wasn't widescreen to begin with... they only way to make it widescreen would be to hack off the top and bottom of the picture.

I said "convert" lol!

[Gubaba]

I said "convert" lol!

I know, which is why I said, "the only way to make it widescreen would be to hack off the top and bottom of the picture."

[Rabidweezil]

You really dont understand the history and politics surrounding the Macross franchise, do you?

The fact that we would never get the best of what macros had to offer in the West dawned on me just under 20 years ago, so I chose the logical option - put some time into studying Japanese so it wouldn't be an issue anymore. Even as someone who doesn't need the subs on Macross Plus, while I can see their flaws I can still understand their significance and appreciate the effort for what it is, given the circumstances. Would I be so forgiving of this quality on, say, the Yamato 2199 BD's (which I also collect/support)? No. But the unfortunate fact of the matter is that Macross is in a somewhat...unique situation and, as such, cannot have the same standards applied. It's just not realistic.

But hey, if you want to sit on the internet and complain about products that arent intended for or released in your region, put together in a country where despite 99.99% of the population not understanding your language, they have attempted to put some sort of English on the disc, risking licensing issues in the process, well then....all the more power to you.

Tochiro, I appreciate you taking the time to explain this. And yes, my knowledge of the Macross politics is pretty much zero. However, as a consumer that has purchased and watched lots of subtitled animation, my expectation for officially released products is that they will take the time to do it right. When a produce says "english subtitles" there is not a "grade" as to if the quality of the subtitles. Generally they are pretty accurate and make sense (unless of course you are talking about bootlegs or fan subs, the same expectation does not apply)

It's not that the subs and poor dub voices on the last episode are that big of a deal in the grand scheme of it all, but as you mentioned it could have been done better (the dubbing issue was a bit more complicated, I get that).

I realize Gundam is a much more powerful entity with the English-speaking crowd, but you probably wouldn't see poor subs on those releases. In my mind Macross > Gundam. Especially Macross Plus which is amazing. Yes I am not the target audience, but that shouldn't matter in my opinion, I'm still an audience and part of a large fanbase. While having English on the disks is great. It doesn't make me feel respected as an English-speaking fan. It's more like, "we threw in some subs, be satisfied."

But again it boils down to my own expectations. This is Macross, I want to be more then just "satisfied," because it's awesome and deserves better, if not the best, in my opinion.

[Gubaba]

I realize Gundam is a much more powerful entity with the English-speaking crowd, but you probably wouldn't see poor subs on those releases. In my mind Macross > Gundam. Especially Macross Plus which is amazing. Yes I am not the target audience, but that shouldn't matter in my opinion, I'm still an audience and part of a large fanbase. While having English on the disks is great. It doesn't make me feel respected as an English-speaking fan. It's more like, "we threw in some subs, be satisfied."

An yet, the Spanish-speaking contingent is probably greater than the English-speaking contingent overall...and yet they get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

And no, as English-speakers, we aren't respected. But someday, we may be, if we can prove that we can fork over cash in big enough quantities to make it worth Bandai Visual's while. If you're sorry you bought the set, fine. An email campaign could work, too. But SOMEHOW, we need to make them listen. (Telling them outright doesn't seem to work, unfortunately.)

[Strumvogel]

One company that is kinda making the right steps in this regard is Sony (though due to the turmoil and politics at the moment, that may very well change). They have been making pushes into the Western market and as a result providing products with good subs and in some aspects, good packaging as well. Of course most of these are on their newer products (Bakemonogatari,Space Pirates, etc). Best example of this is their release of Kara no Kyoukai (although they did mess up their BD release by still using the HD DVD resolution for them), but of course it isn't cheap.

They certainly thought the western anime market worth their while, yet Bandai who's been in that business longer doesn't. Might have something to do with their failed venture last decade in the US. That and the old guys still driving the business who are happy to rest on their laurels I bet.

[treatment]

yo!

R1-dvd (1999 US):

R2J remastered-dvd (2007 Japan):

BD (2013 Japan/region-free):

edit: updated BD-info.

Edited July 20, 2013 by treatment

[MacrossCN]

HD VS BD

[Strumvogel]

They both do have their own charm and appeal to it I guess. The HD while not as sharp and detailed, it's also less clinical and has a warmer organic look to them from the screen shots there.

My copy finally is on it's way as well since the other product I bundled it with just got released. I'll get to finally see it for myself, hopefully on the weekend.

[SterlingMax]

Ordered mine and it's on the way, wasn't aware of the shoddy subs and none on the OAVs. Seen it so many times on VHS the DVD, never had the chance to get the LDs though. Someone will make a video with Manga Ent./STARZ dub for the 4th episode and even proper subs for the OAVs, but I really do want a BD copy on the shelf next to my DRYL. Just curious will the Orguss BDs have the English dub that appeared on the US Renditions VHS and ImaginAsian Entertainment DVDs for those first 17 eps.? I still like the Orguss 02 DVD man is that a beautiful anime.

[NSJ23]

I really can't imagine going through life with such low standards and exceptions on what you spend your money on, but if it's gotten you this far, more power to you.

100x this. i love the set but no way in hell am i going to sit back and say it was good enough because they "tried" or sit on my hands because they "didn't have to include a dub or subs" then get looked at as if i'm unappreciative....the manga dub was the version I watched for years so ep 4 is ruined for me period. there will be no getting used to that, it will always be off. the subs are bad and since I've only had to watch the movie version with subs before and i enjoy the OVA, i have rightful complaints about this set that can't be shoved in the "you can't please everyone" pile