I think ________ will make an apperance in the..

[Mr March]

(Consider that Kawamori retroactively announced that the VF-1 has SWAG armor, or something like it, a long time after the original TV & movies.)

Kawamori did do just that. The stats on the VF-0 SWAG Armor on the Macross Compendium specifically says the other Valkyries use a similar version of this basic technology. I don't think a reason given now is actually changing canon, but rather it's finally giving veiwers an explanation for what we see in the series and films of Macross.

The VF-1 crashes through buildings, bridges, or plows into the ground at high speed with no noticeable damage. An ordinary aircraft would have been smashed into scrap by such events. So how did the VF-1 stay in one piece? We were never told. But finally, now we know.

[Göönk]

The VF-1 crashes through buildings, bridges, or plows into the ground at high speed with no noticeable damage.  An ordinary aircraft would have been smashed into scrap by such events.  So how did the VF-1 stay in one piece?  We were never told.  But finally, now we know.

It has no damage if the building doesnt hit the "NO STEP" sticker of course

Elsewhere, it's armoured. hihi

Also, i've noticed that the LOW VISIBILITY pilot has a strange breathing system on the helmet.

It looks EXACTLY like the one used by the Macross Zero Alliance pilot. And look at the legs !!!!

It's not the typical DYRL legs.

Edited December 9, 2003 by Göönk

[Duke Togo]

My vote is for the Flower of Life!

[Uxi]

VF-1 (Low-Viz).

[Mule]

VF-1 (Low-Viz).

I agree 100%. Not only does the 1/48 have a Mac Zero pilot, but it also has markings for the Asuka. Plus, Hasegawa is supposed to be making one soon (check the models forum). I really think this baby is cannon and not some alternate paint scheme dreamed up at Yamato.

And as far as the VF-1's specs in the Compendium... They seemed leave out a few weapons on the SV-51. Maybe the VF-1 has a few "undocumented features" that we haven't seen yet.

[imode]

VF-1 (Low-Viz).

I agree 100%. Not only does the 1/48 have a Mac Zero pilot, but it also has markings for the Asuka. Plus, Hasegawa is supposed to be making one soon (check the models forum). I really think this baby is cannon and not some alternate paint scheme dreamed up at Yamato.

And as far as the VF-1's specs in the Compendium... They seemed leave out a few weapons on the SV-51. Maybe the VF-1 has a few "undocumented features" that we haven't seen yet.

Well, even if there aren't, how can you go wrong with BIG HONKIN' NUCLEAR MISSILES?!

[Mr March]

I don't believe it shows up in Macross 7 but then again there is Battle 7 is which pretty close to the Macross as it transforms as well. And pretty much goes down in the last battle similar to how Macross does at the end of SDF Macross.

Thanks Effect

[Noyhauser]

There is one HUGE advantage the VF-1 has over the SV-51... Unlimited Range. In 1944 when the Me262 Strumvogel came out, the allies new they couldn't touch it with the P-51 or P-47s. But they realized that the fighter could only do a few passes before it was nearly out of fuel. So they let the 262 do their damage and then waited until they were returing to base, and then picked them off. Since they were out of fuel... they couldn't manuver and were easy targets. Seeing that we know the VF-0 has a fuel guzzling problem, it is likely that the SV-51 has the same problem... a smart VF-1 pilot will just parry his attacks and wait till the SV-51 has to return to base, then deliver the coup de grace.

[Anubis]

I wonder if Kawamori would update the Official VF-1 stats to reflect the extra stuff, if he includes the VF-1 in M0. Maybe listing chaff/flare dispensers and such wasn't something he focused on way back when.

[imode]

I read that Roy was the test pilot for the VF X1 (VF-1 prototype) over at South Ataria. Is the testing already over by now?

**Nevermind, read the compendium. Test flights long over by the time of Macross Zero.

Edited December 9, 2003 by imode

[Commander McBride]

I, too, have a feeling that we're gonna see an updated version of the VF-1 showing up. Updated in the area of specs and features, that is, anyway. And I have a feeling that it's gonna be Low Viz, and look very similar, proportion and detail wise, to Yamato's 1/48.

[unsped]

i will bet you money the low vis does not show up.

[ewilen]

Me262 Strumvogel

Schwalbe, oder?

Re: turbines, based on discussion that went on in another thread about reaction mass and the VF-1's propulsion system, I think the VF-1 does have turbines to spin the fan at the front of the engine, which sucks in air that is heated by the fusion reactor and expelled as a jet through the turbine blades. Some power from the turbines could also be converted into electricity to power other systems.

In theory, I guess, the fusion reactor could be used to produce electricity by other means, which would then be used to spin the fan, eliminating the need for a turbine. But I'll bet that would be less efficient in many ways (weight, space, energy).

In space, reaction mass would be injected from onboard stores directly into the engine (the fan might help pressurize the reaction mass, but I doubt it), heated into a jet by the fusion reactor, and expelled through the turbine, again generating electricity. Once again, the turbine wouldn't be absolutely necessary if electricity were stored or generated by other means.

I think there are some cutaway drawings of the VF-1 that might show enough of the engines to see if there are turbines.

[Noyhauser]

yeah I meant swallow... I'm just not thinking today

[Lightning]

wellllll, here's a far-fetched one: the Megaroad-01 shows up out of it's black hole directly over the islands..

i say at least Claudia and the VF-1 will show up.

[Final Vegeta]

As for mecha, I think we will probably see the SDF-1 in the last episode and perhaps the VF-1 as well.

The Monster is sure, the VF-1 too. I mean, Shin now needs a VF-1D

The SDF-1 seems very unlikely, unless the AFOS folds the entire island.

However, I don't know why so many people here are automatically assuming that the VF-1 will kick the SV-51's ass. Unless Kawamori redesigns the VF-1 to improve the specs, then the VF-0 is actually superior in a number of areas, at least according to the information presented on the Macross Compendium.

And I thought Macross Zero was supposed to show how incredible the VF-1 was

• The VF-0 has active stealth, the VF-1 does not.
  
• The VF-0 has flare and chaff launchers, the VF-1 does not.
  
• The VF-0 has ECM, the VF-1 does not.
  

I think they are supposed to be retro-fitted in all Valkyries, especially the active stealth. I wouldn't be actually surprised to hear active stealth was a concept thought for SDF Macross. I made a pic to show my point. By the way, I think even the regults were supposed to have some active stealth.

The VF-0 carries more gunpod ammo than the VF-1 (550rds vs 200 rds).

Well, if the VF-1 really shows up, I think it'll have a GU-10 gunpod, just to show some new design

The VF-0 can carry two spare gunpod magazine in the leg FAST packs. The VF-1 has no spare magazines. In fact the VF-1's gunpod cannot even be reloaded in the field and has to be taken back to base to be reloaded.

I clearly remember of having seen a VF-1 discarding an ammo clip (magazine) and reloading another one in the first episodes of Robotech, though. Now that I bought Macross DVDs I have rewatched the scene and the VF-1s were the same in the same position, but there were no clips. Was it a scene from later episodes re-edited for the earlier ones or was it draw deliberately for Harmony Gold?

The VF-0 has leg mounted atmospheric FAST packs that hold 24 micro-missiles each. the VF-1 does not. This means that including the wing missiles, the VF-0 carries more missiles than a standard VF-1 with just 12 x AMM-1.

The VF-1 could have some unseen atmospheric FAST packs without fuel tanks, so it could pack the same missile despite having shorter legs (btw, the VF-0 can carry more missile than the GBP-0S!).

That said, the VF-1 is smaller than a VF-0, and that is an advantage. Maybe it was supposed to be even tougher. Also, there is a thing that VF-1 has and VF-0 doesn't: the magic hands! (J/K)

By the way, it's really no suprise VF-0 was thought to have some space capabilities: the VF-1s were actually manifactured at Apollo Base in the moon and in space colonies (another Studio Nue's Gundam in-joke)

The VF-0 has better rear visibility from it's cockpit.

It didn't seem so

FV

[Hurin]

It seems a bit unfair to judge the specs for the VF-1 (written twenty years ago) against the VF-0 (written today).

All those features listed for the VF-0 I would assume are also part of the VF-1 even if only as options that were either rarely used, never used, or dropped as being impractical for a production fighter.

But, it seems to me to be very unwise to compare specs written twenty years ago (VF-1) with specs written today as though we are comparing apples to apples.

I had always assumed the VF-0 is the prototype for the VF-1. Other than assertions to the contrary written here, I don't see any other evidence that it is not.

Now, I'm a VF-1 fanboy. So, this may be just my reflexive rationalizing for why the VF-1 would kick butt. . . but it seems to me that those who are saying the VF-0 is "better" than the VF-1 are taking a big leap that seems rather counter-intuitive.

Or, to put it another way: Just because Kawamori (or whoever) decided to get much more detailed in writing out the specs for the VF-0 (possibly because today's more sophisticated anime fans demand such detail), does not necessarily mean that the twenty-year-old specs of the VF-1 might not also contain a lot of those same features and details had it been written today.

Or to put it in yet another way: If Kawamori were to go back and update the VF-1 with all those features that are listed for the VF-0, would you then feel comfortable saying that the VF-1 is obviously superior to the VF-4, VF-11. . . VF-19?

In my humble opinion, it just makes no sense to say that the VF-0 is so vastly superior to the VF-1. The specs aren't terribly useful in determining such things considering the difference in their authorship dates and the environment in which they were written.

H

Edited December 10, 2003 by Hurin

[Hurin]

Or, finally. . . to put it another way:

Here's my theory. . .

What is "cool" has changed since the original Macross was written.

The creators of Macross Zero wanted to put "cool" stuff on the VF-0. But, they really couldn't do so without mangling the intuitive progression of the VF-0 to the VF-1. They wanted to make the VF-0 super-cool, but how could they do so without making it cooler than the final product (the VF-1). . . so it became a conflict between continuity/faithfulness to the orignal, and creating some bad-ass mecha that would make people say "wow" and sell a lot of DVDs (and models/toys, eventually).

So, yes, on paper, the VF-0 is superior in many ways to the VF-1. But, I would posit that this is solely in order to make the Macross Zero franchise more appealing to today's anime fan. It is not that way for continuity purposes.

For those reasons, I, for my part, assume that the VF-1 has most if not all of the capabilities of the VF-0, even if we never saw many of them. After all, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. Just because the twenty-year-old specs do not mention active stealth doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't there. Those specs might be in error, or incomplete. Or the stealth unit might have been classified back then.

Obviously, we're all taking this too seriously. But, well, if the creators can go back and retroactively add so much to Macross (via M0), I think they also (at least subconsciously) intend the VF-1 to eventually be superior in this "new vision" of Macross that they are giving us. If they can give Roy different hair, they can give the VF-1 active stealth.

To me, that's the only way things make sense.

Let's face it, continuity isn't Macross's strong suit. We've got a movie that is totally disowned (MII). Another one that retells the TV series while fundamentally changing the appearance of mecha and characters, and then we've got convoluted "movie within the anime" explanations of how they fit together. Meanwhile, we're told that the TV series is the canon story, while the designs (mecha and character) from DYRL are the canon artwork.

So, if they can do all that, they can retroactively go back and make the VF-1 better than it's friggin' prototype!

H

Edited December 10, 2003 by Hurin

[imode]

I think they really openend up a whole new can of worms by making the 0 so advanced. From the specs they give, and the way it moves in the show, I'd put it right on par with a 19 sans the thermonuclear engines and a pinpoint barrier shield.

[Hurin]

I'd put it right on par with a 19 sans the thermonuclear engines and a pinpoint barrier shield.

Exactly. We've all got to take the imaginative leap to picture the VF-1 using today's animation techniques, love of military hardware details, and current aerospace developments.

We can enjoy the old TV series and movies for what they are. However, when enjoying Macross Zero, we've got to open the imaginative floodgates a bit more and picture what SDF Macross's mecha would have been like had it been actually designed, animated, and broadcast after Macross Zero.

Though, personally, I too dislike that they went for the "bang" rather than continuity with prior series/movies. But, well, I understand.

H

[Hurin]

The VF-0 doesn't preclude the VF-1.

It's a test bed for future variable fighter technology AFTER the VF-1, so its quite alright that it has enhanced capabilities.

Wohooo , at last ! someone that agrees with me

I've also always thought that the VF-0 has far superior capabilities to the VF-1.

Graham

Ah, but that's not what Aegis and Max are saying. They are saying not only that the VF-0 is superior to the VF-1, but that the VF-0 is not even the prototype for the VF-1.

Something, by the way, with which I obviously disagree, considering I've never seen any evidence for it. Only bold assertions.

H

[Hurin]

Okay, even though I think comparing specs written twenty years ago with specs written today is like comparing apples and oranges (for reasons described in too much detail above). . . let's see if we can actually explain away some of the differences.

Obviously, this is all theoretical and conjectural. . . and is just for fun so that us VF-1 fanboys can feel like our plan can't get its ass kicked by its own prototype:

The VF-0 has active stealth, the VF-1 does not.

VF-1: Found to be ineffective against Zentraedi sensors. Removed shortly after Initiation of Hostilities, Space War I.

The VF-0 has flare and chaff launchers, the VF-1 does not.

VF-1: Found to be ineffective against Zentraedi weapons. Removed shortly after Initiation of Hostilities, Space War I.

The VF-0 has ECM, the VF-1 does not.

VF-1: Found to be ineffective against Zentraedi sensors. Removed shortly after Initiation of Hostilities, Space War I.

The VF-0 carries more gunpod ammo than the VF-1 (550rds vs 200 rds).

VF-1: ??? (totally guessing: GU-11 fires heavier, denser, more effective ammo)

The VF-0 can carry two spare gunpod magazine in the leg FAST packs.

VF-1: Added armor and fusion engines made this impossible.

The VF-0 has leg mounted atmospheric FAST packs that hold 24 micro-missiles each.

VF-1: UN SPACY redirected focus to space-based weapons (FAST Packs) shortly after Initiation of Hostilities, Space War I.

The VF-0 has better rear visibility from it's cockpit.

VF-1: Debatable. Not Addressed.

Both the VF-0 and VF-1 have a similar max speed in atmosphere.

VF-1: Considering they're essentially the same plane, no suprise.

Again, this is just for fun. For all I know, the VF-1 does have "active stealth" in the mind of Kawamori. He just couldn't list it in the spec he wrote in 198x because. . . it didn't occur to him! What with there being no widely known stealth-capable planes in existence at the time.

I wonder, though, how much armor could be added to the VF-1 after the removal of the stealth equipment, flare/chaff launchers, ECM, etc. Everything is a trade-off in aircraft design.

Considering all of the above, I think I'll take the production VF-1 with FAST Packs if I'm going to be fighting zentraedi in space!

Best Regards,

Hurin

Edited December 10, 2003 by Hurin

[Anubis]

I agree with pretty much most of what Hurin has been saying. If the VF-1 had been cooked up now, it would probably list all the stuff mentioned.

[Legioss]

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf1/index.html

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf0/index.html

PROGRAM: Trial production model and testbed for advanced jet engines and Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters. Deployed for actual combat and functional testing when delivery of VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed. Flown over the South Pacific Ocean island of Mayan during a secret program one to two years before Space War I.

My understanding of these two pages in Macross Compendium is that the VF-1 has already been designed at this point. It's prototypes were the VF-X and VF-X1. VF-0 is the bleeding edge technology still in testing. They're only using it in combat because the VF-1's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed.

[Hurin]

I guarantee you, somewhere on a Star Wars message board, someone is arguing that the Naboo Starfighter is more advanced than an X-Wing.

[Hurin]

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf1/index.html

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../vf0/index.html

PROGRAM: Trial production model and testbed for advanced jet engines and Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters. Deployed for actual combat and functional testing when delivery of VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed. Flown over the South Pacific Ocean island of Mayan during a secret program one to two years before Space War I.

My understanding of these two pages in Macross Compendium is that the VF-1 has already been designed at this point. It's prototypes were the VF-X and VF-X1. VF-0 is the bleeding edge technology still in testing. They're only using it in combat because the VF-1's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed.

Well, that does move Max's assertion out of simple "bold assertion" mode. . . thanks to Legioss.

Two things here though:

1. How official is the Macross Compendium? I know we all treat it like the bible (hehe, until we disagree with it!). . . but I've always wondered where the actual source of this information is. . . and if any of it is just simply made up by Egan Loo because it sounds cool?

2. It doesn't make 100% sense that a "bleeding edge" experimental plane would have a VF designation, while another test plane would be the VF-Xx designation. My understanding is that (even in real life) experimental planes have an X somewhere in their name. My interpretation could be that the VF-X1 and VF-0 are the same plane and/or the VF-X1 was redesignated the VF-0 when it was needed for combat and given live (experimental?) weapons.

On another note, I doubt the fully designed and built VF-1 is sitting on the tarmac somewhere, waiting only for fusion engines. There would still have to be a lot of work done on it after the engine swap.

All that being said, I do now acknowledge that Max and Aegis's interpretations now seem more plausible. Though nothing is yet proven, either way. If, however, someone can source that information from the Macross Compendium, I'll happily admit my mistake.

Best Regards,

Hurin

[ewilen]

My understanding of these two pages in Macross Compendium is that the VF-1 has already been designed at this point. It's prototypes were the VF-X and VF-X1. VF-0 is the bleeding edge technology still in testing. They're only using it in combat because the VF-1's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed.

Valkyrie Development History

Does it bug anyone else?

Lots of discussion on this in those two topics.

Edited December 10, 2003 by ewilen

[imode]

*nodnod*

I think at some point we just have to realize that the VF-0 and VF-1 have absolutely nothing to do with each other save the transformation system and the fact that they were built simultaneously. Think of the VF-1 as the YF plane meant for eventual production and the VF-0 as the X plane to test cutting edge technology. More than likely UN Spacy had originally intended to deploy the VF-1's to combat the SV-51 but the airframe was far to small to accomodate the larger conventional engines and those went with the experimental and untested VF-0 beacuse its larger airframe was more readily able to support the engines.

Even if the VF-0 does end up more technologically advanced, I can think of a few reasons why a VF-1 could still be just as powerful if not more powerful. First of all, the VF-0 was, up until this point, largely untested while the VF-1 had gone through rigorous testings down in South Ataria. The compendium lists the controls of the VF-0 as more delicate than the VF-1 and perhaps maybe making it a more unstable plane, a la the YF-19. And if you remember what happened in Macross Plus, Yang mentioned that the YF-19 had already sent a number of test pilots to their graves. Thirdly, the VF-1 is smaller and presents a smaller target. While the VF-0 seems to be a lot more nimble than the VF-1 ever did, remember what Max could do with the VF-1 and know that the full potential of any variable fighter lies within the pilot. And while the VF-0 and SV-51's seem to have active stealth, the pilots have a penchant for having a really IN-YOUR-FACE flying style that really makes radar a non-issue.

[Hurin]

Okay, since this has been discussed so thoroughly (in the case of Aegis, fanatically) in those other two threads, I'll just shut up here. For the record though, while I see merit in both arguments, I think ewilen's argument is ultimately the most persuasive and adaptable to the (ever-changing) information coming out of Kawamori and the animes themselves.

If anyone has anything else more on this "VF-0, prototype or not" argument, I suggest we take it over to the other threads.

Best Regards,

H

[imode]

I want Riber to show up, just in time to get blasted!

[Legioss]

1. How official is the Macross Compendium? I know we all treat it like the bible (hehe, until we disagree with it!). . . but I've always wondered where the actual source of this information is. . . and if any of it is just simply made up by Egan Loo because it sounds cool?

http://www.anime.net/macross/introduction/index.html

(at the bottom of the page)

This resource is sanctioned by Bandai Visual and Manga Entertainment, Inc. Further information is available in the Copyright Notice.

http://www.anime.net/macross/endnotes/inde....html#copyright

Copyright © 1994-2000 by Big West and its licensees/Egan Loo. All rights reserved. All materials on this site used with express prior permission. Product and brand names are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective owners.

[Final Vegeta]

I think they really openend up a whole new can of worms by making the 0 so advanced. From the specs they give, and the way it moves in the show, I'd put it right on par with a 19 sans the thermonuclear engines and a pinpoint barrier shield.

To put it simply, in Macross Valkyries always move as fast as budget allows, so different budgets created some inconsistences. Blame the producers, not Kawamori

FV

[Abombz!!]

The Monster is sure, the VF-1 too. I mean, Shin now needs a VF-1D

I'm not sure about this one... why give the new fighter to the annoying bastard... when you can just give it to Focker and watch him end the war?

[Yohsho]

But Shin is the main character of Zero, what would be funny is they gave a CF and let him go at it with AFOS/DD/Nora.

[Abombz!!]

But Shin is the main character of Zero, what would be funny is they gave a CF and let him go at it with AFOS/DD/Nora.

So? Its like killing the main character..... it has been done before... I don't see why it can't be done now.