DYRL BD Remaster - the Good.......and the BAD.

[Gubaba]

I'd really like to know when has Japan ever released a "fixed" version of something due to popular complaints (and not due to purely technical issue) .

Yes. When the Gundam Movie Trilogy was released on DVD in 2000, they rerecorded all the dialogue (having to recast characters whose VAs had passed away) and added sounds effects. Many fans complained.

The next DVD release (in...2008...? 2009...? Somewhere around there...) had both the "Special Edition" audio AND the original audio.

[nautilus]

OK, I will say one thing in defense of the Remastering itself, with regards to picture quality. I believe I said this to Tochiro after the screening, too.

There is most likely nothing that can be done about the out-of-focus shots in the movie. Yes, there are a lot of them, but I think that was a problem which arose at the original photography stage, and it is an issue with the original negatives. If that is indeed the case, you can remaster the film all you like but those shots are never going to get sharp.

Perhaps certain among the Frothing Japanese public have had unrealistic expectations about the quality of the final Blu-ray print, but after following this release since last Crimble in a variety of media, I had expected something that, in the words of my co-worker "did not look as if it belonged on a DVD".

I am still undecided about the picture issue, as I do think it is generally sharper and clearer than the 20th Ann DVD I bought a while back, but that very issue has seen four friends return their boxes to Family Mart this afternoon in a (perhaps unreasonably) peevish show of outrage for middle-aged Japanese lads.

All in all, I hold with Renato, this one is going to bite Bandai in the rump, and I too look no further than Kawamori. In conversation he is a little odd (though, I think my keigo got to him) and, I feel, prone to thinking that Macross has always been his baby, is his baby and will always be his baby...

Ho hum.......

Edited July 26, 2012 by nautilus

[Gokurakumaru]

超時空要塞マクロス おい・ふざけていますか

Hahaha. Champagne comedy!!!

[Gubaba]

Perhaps certain among the Frothing Japanese public have had unrealistic expectations about the quality of the final Blu-ray print...

...because everyone here in the Western fandom is totally okay with everything, right?

[antibiotictab]

超時空要塞マクロス おい・ふざけていますか

クッソワロタw

[sharky]

But I agree, it goes against any kind of sense why people would continue to do the same thing, hoping for different results. Releasing edits of movies is just asking to be burned in effigy by fans of the original.

In some cases (again, Lucas) I think it's due to the original author wanting to "reclaim" some of their work.. not even to make money, just to send the message "This is my movie, I'll do what I want with it, and people will still buy it." I couldn't say that's the case here, because I don't know how Kawamori views what's been done, or if he even had any part in it.

I can't recall anyone ever saying "wow, taking that part out made the movie better" Now adding in more stuff may improve things or it may make things worse, but taking even a tiny bit out of something people have already grown to love never helps it only hurts. It does make a difference if he had done this during the original editing of the movie and we always saw it this way.

Regarding your other point, maybe it has something to do with keeping it out of public domain. If you change it enough maybe they can create another copyright and maintain control over it as far as licensing the rights to it, etc. Just a theory.

[JetJockey]

Two threads on almost the same thing but I guess the good from this is I'm not going to be out $200+. The bad is that what should be the perfect version of one of the best Japanese animated movies and one of my favorite movies just isn't right. Perhaps they'll try again for the 35th or 40th anniversary.

[Gubaba]

I can't recall anyone ever saying "wow, taking that part out made the movie better"

Harrison Ford's voice-over in Blade Runner?

[nautilus]

On the issue of cutting, I wonder how much for this was actually forced upon the movie because it was being directly associated with a 'gamelette' aimed at kiddy-winkies?

Clutching at straws? Perhaps, but the Japanese ESRB brought the hammer down in 2009 on what can be depicted in games, and I remember how the fallout upset not just the anoraks who play rape sims, but also that middle-teen ground who had a great many of their games seemingly pruned without reason...

[Macross_Fanboy]

Yes. When the Gundam Movie Trilogy was released on DVD in 2000, they rerecorded all the dialogue (having to recast characters whose VAs had passed away) and added sounds effects. Many fans complained.

The next DVD release (in...2008...? 2009...? Somewhere around there...) had both the "Special Edition" audio AND the original audio.

Yeah, in the States it was released as a "Special Edition" with the butchered audio track, especially the iconic Pew-Pew and Zaku mono-eye SE. The 5.1 remix and stereo remix wasn't too different in my opinion. Better than the Mangle release of M+ and we all know how bad that sucked...

[Renato]

On the issue of cutting, I wonder how much for this was actually forced upon the movie because it was being directly associated with a 'gamelette' aimed at kiddy-winkies?

Clutching at straws? Perhaps, but the Japanese ESRB brought the hammer down in 2009 on what can be depicted in games, and I remember how the fallout upset not just the anoraks who play rape sims, but also that middle-teen ground who had a great many of their games seemingly pruned without reason...

Like I said before, repeatedly, "Macross F: Sayonara no tsubasa" is also a hybrid pack BD with a game and that has far more explicit depictions of murderous violence than DYRL (as in, it's not just "blink and you missed it").

And no "kiddy-winky" is buying this Blu-ray, anyway.

[hulagu]

Like I said before, repeatedly, "Macross F: Sayonara no tsubasa" is also a hybrid pack BD with a game and that has far more explicit depictions of murderous violence than DYRL (as in, it's not just "blink and you missed it").

And no "kiddy-winky" is buying this Blu-ray, anyway.

I don't remember onscreen decapitation and graphic dismemberment though despite other scenes of graphic violence, which apparently is the big no no for CERO.

Edited July 27, 2012 by hulagu

[JetJockey]

The modern Resident Evil games have all this violent stuff so it can't be because of the pack in game.

[EXO]

Harrison Ford's voice-over in Blade Runner?

Good answer but then again... I brought this up somewhere else, the dfference between Ridley Scott and the the other movies with changes is that the original or alternative versions are made available, giving the viewer choice. That's why no one ever made a fuss about Blade Runner, Alien or Legend. And for that matter Cameron did the same with Aliens and The Abyss.

[Renato]

I don't remember onscreen decapitation and graphic dismemberment though despite other scenes of graphic violence, which apparently is the big no no for CERO.

I don't recall onscreen decapitation off the top of my head (ba-dum, tshhhh!! ) but there was certainly graphic dismemberment. They blow an undercover infiltrator's arm clean off, for one. And in slow motion, no less.

[nautilus]

Like I said before, repeatedly, "Macross F: Sayonara no tsubasa" is also a hybrid pack BD with a game and that has far more explicit depictions of murderous violence than DYRL (as in, it's not just "blink and you missed it").

And no "kiddy-winky" is buying this Blu-ray, anyway.

I dunno... Perhaps I am getting old, but I found SnT less graphic (not and certainly not offensive) than DYL, but that is not the issue. However one looks at it, the mangling of this version is, to this little black duck, wholly unwarranted in the face of things.

Though, as for young-uns not buying this blu-ray, our survey says.... X, and it is interesting that when the missus received POS and promo materials for the shop, they came with a polite request from the distributors to site said materials prominently amid the "family gaming" section as well as among the film media.

Like it or not, Frontier has won a younger market for Macross, and that means many things... not least of which might be a tinfoil hat for me. Still, whichever way you look at it, that does not explain, or justify these daft little tweaks. I am sorry if I seem strident, but it just saddens me that something so important to me (and to others) should be treated in this cavalier fashion by people who we thought would have protected it...

At least I get to into town and bitch to the Bandai area rep today.

[xrentonx]

At least I get to into town and bitch to the Bandai area rep today.

Please do this! I already bought a copy (not gonna return it) but it's nice to have someone to complain for me

[Renato]

I dunno... Perhaps I am getting old, but I found SnT less graphic (not and certainly not offensive) than DYL, but that is not the issue. However one looks at it, the mangling of this version is, to this little black duck, wholly unwarranted in the face of things.

Though, as for young-uns not buying this blu-ray, our survey says.... X, and it is interesting that when the missus received POS and promo materials for the shop, they came with a polite request from the distributors to site said materials prominently amid the "family gaming" section as well as among the film media.

Like it or not, Frontier has won a younger market for Macross, and that means many things... not least of which might be a tinfoil hat for me. Still, whichever way you look at it, that does not explain, or justify these daft little tweaks. I am sorry if I seem strident, but it just saddens me that something so important to me (and to others) should be treated in this cavalier fashion by people who we thought would have protected it...

At least I get to into town and bitch to the Bandai area rep today.

Please elaborate... Do you/your wife run some sort of business like a gaming store or something?

[hulagu]

The modern Resident Evil games have all this violent stuff so it can't be because of the pack in game.

Never played Resident Evil, but from my understanding all the JP Biohazard versions are also censored for those parts.

Edited July 27, 2012 by hulagu

[Strumvogel]

You can +1 for me when you bitch to the rep. I also would have added a simple 3 letters for the rep to bring back but somehow I don't think "W-T-F" means very much in Japan. The closest analogue I think is " orz "? But that's more of a geek term.

In anycase just a very simple polite "Very disappointed" will do I think.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

Disappointing to hear this. A few snippets of violence or not, it's still a needless change to something that's been fine for decades. The missing music is even more troubling. Reminds me of the debate over the US edits to Gunbuster (which were a lot more egregious than this but only on a US release until it wormed its way onto the Bluray). One can argue that it's so short and doesn't change the plot all they want, but they forget that it still alters the tone. Music especially affects this. It's why I'm always skeptical over surround remixes. It might be an upgrade in channels, but it can alter the presentation and feel depending on how it's done (I remember how drastically different those remixed Gundam movies were). It's not Star Wars SE bad, but you're still altering something people tend to remember very well and a change for better or worse will always be seen while watched as a change. It may be small enough to ignore and still pony up for, but if you think like that, then you basically give them carte blanche to do whatever they feel like. There's no need for this, and I'm tired of studios that try to sneak it by fans at the eleventh hour. I also will never get the "if you're upset enough over little changes to be unable to enjoy the film with them you obviously never really did" argument.

What makes it more ridiculous is that they bothered to include something labeled "original theatrical version" and yet it's not. It's not the first time I've seen something released as such yet it still has the alterations made, just not the added scenes. I can't remember at the moment what it was, but it's still deceptive. There's no reason not to have the theatrical cut be just that, warts and all (including the error fixes would be nice too).

As for who, I wouldn't entirely blame Kawamori just because they claim it was up to him. For Gunbuster, Bandai claimed the change was made by Gainax producers. I'm not sure who they meant since when I asked Yamaga about it he was learning about it from me. So it could very well be a passing okay from him and nothing more.

Guess I'm glad I can't afford this at the moment anyway. I'm sure some fansubber will fix it. The point is that they shouldn't have to.

[ZenAmako]

Though, as for young-uns not buying this blu-ray, our survey says.... X, and it is interesting that when the missus received POS and promo materials for the shop, they came with a polite request from the distributors to site said materials prominently amid the "family gaming" section as well as among the film media.

It has always seemed a little suspicious that they wanted this classified as a game first and a movie second. I haven't watched the second Frontier movie, but the scene in DYRL where the head gets crushed IS pretty gory (albeit brief).

Again, I am reminded of when I bought the Megazone 23 PS3 game for the pack-in DVD with the English version of the OVA, only to find the OVA severely edited.

[JetJockey]

Never played Resident Evil, but from my understanding all the JP Biohazard versions are also censored for those parts.

Are they? That would make those chainsaw guys not as scary.

Anyone find/upload videos yet of the DYRL edited scenes? I still want to see them in motion.

[Jasonc]

OK, just saw the entire BD through, and some thoughts on the edits and changes. The part where Milia steps on the head isn't completely invisible. It still shows, just with a photoshop blur to it. The second cut of the guy getting his head cut off is not in it at all. I thought I'd have an issue with that part, but before this edit was done, showing the guy get decapatated, during the turning resolution of the movie was kinda a drawback. I'd be fine if it were in, but again, not a distraction having it out, and works just fine. As for "Ai Oboeteimasuka" BGM not being in the part just before Minmay comes to that realization that she needs to sing, that kinda bothered me. I was hoping it wouldn't be too much of a distraction, but knowing the original, it's there, and noticable. It by no means destroys the movie, and the same effect is there, just not as powerful a moment as with the buildup to that point where she takes the stage. I also watched the theatrical release, and the edits are there too. Bummer. However, I don't have any of the supposed audio discrepencies that people were talking about, so that's a good thing. Overall, I'm very happy with it. Could've been a little better without the edits, but as quick as they happen, the great quality and sound put you right back in it.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Well, finally got mine today.

Box is lovely, haven't gone through all the physical extras yet but the film strip is the circus.

Straight to the main feature the. Watched through it once and enjoyed it thoroughly. I don't believe there is anything purely technically wrong with it as far as the HD/BD remastering process goes. No nuclear DNR, no audio issues.

As for the deliberate changes such as the music and violence, personally I don't mind those. It's silly they did change it but for me barely a second of visual changes and an audio one does not affect the whole movie.

I believe the variety in video quality has nothing to do with the remaster and is entirely the fault of the original production process. There is a ton of soft and out of focus shots but the vast majority of them are the ones that have the subtitles for the zentradi. I suspect that's the culprit because it must have been done with an extra composition step that was at times done lazily/rushed/incompetently. The quality does drop with each composition (which is why in ye olde days hollywood used larger film stock for the raw footage in effects shots so that by the time they're done they still have enough quality left), but there's no real reason why they couldn't have taken care to focus it properly. Was the production severely rushed or something? I know they storyboarded Flashback 2012 stuff but couldn't get it done in time, but were there other issues? The blurry shots without the subtitles usually have a ton of layers. So again something gone wrong at the photography step and nothing can fix it now sadly.

screenshotcomparison.com was being annoying and refuses to let me upload batches of comparisons. I had 45 comparisons lined up not including the censorship and I just can't do 45 individual uploads. What I'll do instead is bundle it all up in a .rar and up it to mediafire overnight.

For now just have a few comparisons I was able to upload.

All comparison are straight up sources, no encodes. Upscaled DVD (2007) BCBA-3170 and the BD (2012) BLJS-93006

On a side note, combining the extras of these two releases is quite awesome. Full storyboard, design book, magazine archive, tons more. Quite lovely. A very concentrated pile of reasons to learn Japanese....

Boxes of Macross

Anyway, screenshots:

The really good:

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137815

The really blurry:

http://screenshotcom...parison/137816/

A few more random ones:

http://screenshotcom...parison/137818/

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137817

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137823

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137824

Censorship comparisons:

Head stomp:

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137819

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137820

Head loss:

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137821

http://screenshotcom...mparison/137822

That's all there is to show for the censorship. Only 4 cels are censored for the head stomp and for the decapitation it just goes all white for the last few frames in the BD. I thought about doing a video but that would require me aquiring an editor and learning how to use it. By the time that happens someone else will probably do it.

Gonna start going through the extras now.

EDIT: Potentially fun idea: Anyone know if the (un)censored parts are included in the flim strips people are getting? Since so few frames are censored just 2-3 film strips is all that's needed to restore it if Bandai let those out.

Edited July 27, 2012 by TMBounty_Hunter

[Xard]

Thanks for all the informative discussion in topic guys, especially Bounty's last post that somewhat calmed down my anxieties about potential technical issues with the discs (I just ordered mine from yesasia a quarter hour or so ago, I kinda wish I'd checked this topic before doing that). The edits are non-issue to me but technical problems seem more severe. But given that these have not been problem with everyone and that the theatrical screening had no such issues I feel it's safe to pin blame on the hardware side of things. Which really sucks for those who encounter such problems, I really hope my BD player and laptop BD drive are ok with the release.

Re:cuts the silly, gratuitous gore bits being gone for good is great in my books and I'm not at all surprised Kawamori did it. In particular the ridiculous flying head gore shot in middle of Ai Oboeteimasuka? montage always struck me as extremely out of place and silly - almost a moodbreaker even. Now that Kawamori is more mature and experienced director I'm not surprised to see he wanted to root out couple of times he gave in for Ichiro Itano when he definetly shouldn't have

(I'm 99.99% sure the gratuitous gore in DYRL came from Itano because he's HUGE gorehound and similar gore is present in many of his own directing works, for example the almost contemporary Megahouse episode he directed. Kawamori in othe other hand has never shown any inclination towards gore)

Given that they always counted as minor flaws and signs of Kawamori's then-inexperience as director I'm most satisfied with these changes.

The sound edit in Minmay-Hikaru scene is more ambivalent in my eyes, essentially it's stylistic choice that impacts the scene overall in very minimal fashion (in fact had there not been music in original theatrical cut I doubt anyone here would even long for it). I'm okay either way so it doesn't rust my jimmies either, even if I see the change as neutral instead of positive like with the stupid gore shots. Basically it's the contrast between more modern sensibilities and the somewhat schmaltzy way DYRL and many other 80s anime films used musical cues in a way that could come out from Hollywood's classic period.

I've always liked that musical cue in DYRL because it's beautiful and I think it depicts the resolution of Minmay's internal conflict well - but then again I'm avid watcher of old films and I'm very much in terms with the melodrama such scores tend to bring with them. Looking (listening?) to it with modern sensibilities iti is ridiculously blunt and unsubtle way to signal change in a character. It's like I was watching 40s melodrama or something instead of scifi film.

So I can see the rationale behind that edit too. Personally speaking I dig both options so again, not a issue for me though I can understand this can be negative change for many.

(as for gore shots, no, I can only understand attachment to them through personal, long history with the film and generally being purist towards changing material*)

*and if grand masters of literature like 19th century Russian giants saw it fitting change things for later and eventually definitive versions of their masterworks I find it hard to categorically rule out such edits as somehow impure and detracting. On the film side of things for Star Wars Special Editions we have eg. Blade Runner and Touch of Evil.

So really, instead of categorical rejection of such edits I think they must be evaluated case by case. For me the DYRL edits are either positive (gore shots) or neutral (the minor sound edit) and their impact is minimal so I think the drama is a bit overblown.

[Johnomaton]

Thanks for the info and thoughts on the BD, Jasonc and TMBounty_Hunter.

@Xard: After the initial unpleasantness of having something special spoilt, it's easier to look at the product in and of itself for what it is: the best 99% of DYRL has ever looked and sounded. But let's be clear about something: the picture you paint of Kawamori vindicating himself after decades for Itano's "infraction" is, however amusing, petty. It's not inaccurate to say that these are minutia, but by that very logic it is unnecessary that they should have occured in the first place. It's bizzarely selfish and passive-aggressive to do this and then call the product a theatrical cut; let's not pretend otherwise. Whether or not the edits are positive is not the issue; the issue is integrity. DYRL is now 30 years old. When they sell DYRL, they make bank on a long-held rapport. Suddenly deciding that we no longer need the intact version of DYRL after all this time, all this goodwill, it's kind of shitty. It's not about being puristic, it's about being honest, being considerate, and maybe even taking a little responsibility for the film. Even if I buy that it's case-by-case, there is no case for denying audiences a genuine comparison. I find it immature and cowardly.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Johnomaton

[Einherjar]

I really won't miss the exclusion of the decapatiated guy.

[EXO]

I really won't miss the exclusion of the decapatiated guy.

It's nothing to lose your head over?

[Tober]

I really won't miss the exclusion of the decapatiated guy.

Yeah. It's ironic to me that the head-stomp and decapitation seemed like juvenile violence compared to the rest of the movie. So to have them removed to accommodate a 12+ age rating...

At the same time excessive bloody violence and 80's OVA anime are kinda synonymous to me, so I have mixed feelings about their censorship...

[TMBounty_Hunter]

45 comparisons.

http://www.mediafire.com/?1seoyn6vfbffjil

[gshock]

45 comparisons.

http://www.mediafire...1seoyn6vfbffjil

Could you repost. Link is invalid. Thank you.

[Einherjar]

By comparison, I think Kakizaki was treated worse. He should've been censored as a courtesy.

[Cobra__]

Yeah. It's ironic to me that the head-stomp and decapitation seemed like juvenile violence compared to the rest of the movie. So to have them removed to accommodate a 12+ age rating...

Macross DYRL is a whole. Saying that blurring a certain scene, cutting another one completely, changing the mood of another scene doesn't in any way alter the film is just being delusional. Fans will give any kind of stupid justification for their "cocaine", but the changes are still there and because of that the film is objectively different. Same thing with Lucas modifying his films. Little changes here and there and 15 years later you end up with a completely different film (as in the mood of the film is different).

What's next, censoring the rape scene in Royal Space Force ?

What Kawamori has done is crap. He has craped all over the original film and the fans are drinking the kool aid. In this the Macross fandom is no different from any other fandom. Panem et circenses the romans used to say. DYRL is served on a silver dish, unfortunately it stinks.

At the same time excessive bloody violence and 80's OVA anime are kinda synonymous to me, so I have mixed feelings about their censorship...

Can you imagine censoring Megazone 23 part 2 for violence ? Ha ha ha what a bloody joke it would be. And you can bet someone somewhere would justify it.

If the Macross fandom had balls they would boycott this stupid release. Hit Bandai where it means something. Abd then maybe they would release the corret theatrical presentation. But what they released is all except a definitive release. A take your money and run job.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Could you repost. Link is invalid. Thank you.

Ugh, I think it might have automatically killed it because of DVD in the filename or something...

Gonna have to reupload I guess, might take a while.

EDIT: wtf mediafire apperently nuked all my files. :\

Edited July 28, 2012 by TMBounty_Hunter