DYRL BD Remaster - the Good.......and the BAD.

[Tober]

Well that's a nice kick in the nads. I won't cancel my order, but I'm disappointed if it's as bad as it sounds...

Maybe Bandai will release a renewal version next year...

[Renato]

So far I've seen reports that someone counted as much as SEVEN SECONDS MISSING from the opening dialogue between Exedore and Britai... That almost sounds like a recall scenario to me.

Anyway, I'll just leave this here, I'm going to bed now:

http://engawa.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/ranime/1343042667/

[Johnomaton]

Glad I cancelled. Does anyone not find this whole thing kind of strange, though? Like, making this a hybrid pack must have been a money saving measure or perhaps they thought the game might not sell enough on its own? Maybe this is my own desperate conjecture, but would it be so far-fetched to suggest that they planned this from the beginning? Test the waters with this release, then maybe rake in more money with a follow-up release that's just DYRL unmolested?

[genomcorp]

Ouch. glad I waited it out...

[Vifam7]

So far I've seen reports that someone counted as much as SEVEN SECONDS MISSING from the opening dialogue between Exedore and Britai... That almost sounds like a recall scenario to me.

Anyway, I'll just leave this here, I'm going to bed now:

http://engawa.2ch.ne...ime/1343042667/

After reading portions of the thread, it seems the issue may be player dependent.

Reminds me of the time when some folks had trouble with the first DVD release.

[pablumatic]

Wow. What a mess. So I basically spent close to $200 for a PS3 Macross mini-game in a foreign language. I certainly am not getting the movie I thought I was paying for.

Soon as it comes in the disc goes on ebay. I'll keep the rest of it.

[Johnomaton]

Hey, at least you got some swank extras! I still want to buy a legitimate version of this, so I might spring for the barebones release sometime. By all other indications this is a technical upgrade, so hopefully a fan edited BD will emerge...

[sharky]

We Macross nuts are a cursed fandom it seems.

[distantmantra]

Hey, at least you got some swank extras! I still want to buy a legitimate version of this, so I might spring for the barebones release sometime. By all other indications this is a technical upgrade, so hopefully a fan edited BD will emerge...

Hopefully the games side of Bandai Namco will release a patch for it.

[Johnomaton]

You mean a revised disc, or...?

[ZenAmako]

So, essentially, the people who download this will make out the best (English subs, possible fan edit that restores the censored scenes and fixes any other issues). And the studios wonder why sales of packaged media are on the decline. Personally, I hate it when they go all out on the swag and fail to pay attention to the quality of the actual movie. An unmolested version of the film in HD, with lossless sound. Is that so much to ask for? The extras are nice (although I couldn't care less about the game), but they are EXTRA.

[Chronocidal]

No shipping notice for me yet from CDJapan, but the order says it's processing. Should be on its way pretty soon... so I need to go buy that PS3.

To tell the truth, I didn't really buy this set for the movie, so I'm not overly concerned about glitches and edits. They'll be annoying, but if I watch this with anyone else, I'll use a fansubbed copy anyway, so the movie will most likely stay in the case most of the time.

Buying this for me was more about actually owning a legitimate copy after years of watching downloaded stuff (plus, you know, the game and extras). I'll probably get a subbed version at some point, but it'll be satisfying to have that box on my shelf next to my Star Wars and BSG sets.

[Johnomaton]

So, essentially, the people who download this will make out the best (English subs, possible fan edit that restores the censored scenes and fixes any other issues). And the studios wonder why sales of packaged media are on the decline.

My dilemma now is that if awesome fan restored BD can be mine, do I buy the BD? Is it better to not contribute in protest of the revisionism, or should the work that nevertheless has been done be acknowledged? Or should I look at it from a utilitarian perspective and ask whether the success or failure of the release would prompt a future, satisfactory one?

[JetJockey]

Maybe Bandai will release a renewal version next year...

Glad I cancelled. Does anyone not find this whole thing kind of strange, though? Like, making this a hybrid pack must have been a money saving measure or perhaps they thought the game might not sell enough on its own? Maybe this is my own desperate conjecture, but would it be so far-fetched to suggest that they planned this from the beginning? Test the waters with this release, then maybe rake in more money with a follow-up release that's just DYRL unmolested?

Companies have no problems releasing poor first generation products only to release 2nd generation versions that are what the first generation should have been. Macross DYRL Uncut or Unedited a year or so from now wouldn't surprise me at all.

Anyone find any unboxing videos yet? Or pics? I still want to see the extras.

[UN Spacy]

I'd be glad to do an unboxing vid and review. But mine won't be shipped for a few more days.

[Jasonc]

I just want to know, who we can blame for the decision to alter a pretty flawless movie, and add/detract things from it? All this changing of the movie only seems to have pissed people off. If it came from higher ups, I'll gladly point my finger there, but c'mon. Do people not understand that changes to things that are classics have NEVER resulted in better acceptance. NEVER.

[JetJockey]

I'd be glad to do an unboxing vid and review. But mine won't be shipped for a few more days.

Cool. Show the offending/edited scenes too.

I just want to know, who we can blame for the decision to alter a pretty flawless movie, and add/detract things from it? All this changing of the movie only seems to have pissed people off. If it came from higher ups, I'll gladly point my finger there, but c'mon. Do people not understand that changes to things that are classics have NEVER resulted in better acceptance. NEVER.

I'm sure the Star Wars Blu-rays still sold well. I didn't buy them. I still have my "limited" Star Wars DVDs which I purchased heavily discounted. But money talks and if fans continue to buy altered or poor versions then the director or suit who decided on the changes will happily continue.

[Chronocidal]

I blame George Lucas.

But I agree, it goes against any kind of sense why people would continue to do the same thing, hoping for different results. Releasing edits of movies is just asking to be burned in effigy by fans of the original.

In some cases (again, Lucas) I think it's due to the original author wanting to "reclaim" some of their work.. not even to make money, just to send the message "This is my movie, I'll do what I want with it, and people will still buy it." I couldn't say that's the case here, because I don't know how Kawamori views what's been done, or if he even had any part in it.

I'd think these changes fall more under the "Let's make those mysterious stains in the dungeons in Ocarina of Time: Master Quest green instead of red," and less under the "Han Shot First" type. It shouldn't need to be changed at all, and looks pretty hypocritcal considering the gore in the Frontier movies, but I can see why people might want to clean it up some.

The rest though, if the stuff about the changes in the soundtrack and dialogue is true, that's just sloppy editing. Unfortunately for international buyers, returning the set for a refund or exchanging it for a fixed version is pretty unlikely, so everyone will be looking towards the internet for fixed versions.

[Strumvogel]

It's unfortunate that the overwhelming pre-order sales have pretty much made up the minds for those who made these changes that it was a success. They'd do better to check out the secondhand stores immediately after to see just how much of the sales they're actually losing.

As it is the only recourse of the fans to get their message thru is by flaming the companies and those involved directly.

[Jasonc]

It's unfortunate that the overwhelming pre-order sales have pretty much made up the minds for those who made these changes that it was a success. They'd do better to check out the secondhand stores immediately after to see just how much of the sales they're actually losing.

As it is the only recourse of the fans to get their message thru is by flaming the companies and those involved directly.

If the initial sales look great, and then it drops off the face of the map, I'm sure the company would be looking at second hand sales as much as possible.

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Macross DYRL Uncut or Unedited a year or so from now wouldn't surprise me at all.

I'd really like to know when has Japan ever released a "fixed" version of something due to popular complaints (and not due to purely technical issue) .

In the west we have one example of a famous case with Gladiator BD with the initial version being so DNR'd that arrows from the battle scene disappeared. After mass-internet complaining they did finally issue a proper, unmolested version.

In Japan however we had Toho DNR Godzilla and Kurosawa movies and as far as I know that was never "fixed" even with the internet complaining. Instead Criterion did their own film scans in the West. Japan was stuck with Toho's version. Godzilla and Kurosawa are far, far bigger than Macross and if Japan couldn't be bothered to fix the former then what hope does the latter have?

Still waiting for my tracking to come to life. Already have a ton of screens from the 2007 DVD Remaster ready for comparison when the BD shows up.

[Strumvogel]

If the initial sales look great, and then it drops off the face of the map, I'm sure the company would be looking at second hand sales as much as possible.

Maybe. But you know they'd just spin it in anyway they can make themselves and their decisions come out smelling like roses anyway. They're really not accountable to anyone but themselves and their own perceived image.

Nothing will happen until someone of greater stature puts their foot down and say to them "WTF, man?"

[Oihan]

I have some mixed feelings about this whole ordeal. All things considered, it makes me wonder how such a release like this could be botched.

As far as the glitches are concerned, I seriously hope there is nothing wrong with the discs. I would really hate it if there was some kind of recall (as some have suggested) and I had to send the disc back to get it replaced. My hope is that the firmware on some of these players is out of date and that it needs to be updated. I remember having an issue playing a Blu-ray and HD-DVD, on the early generation players, where the video would stutter or not even load. I soon found that to solve the problem an update to the firmwares was needed. Now, if these people were having issues playing the Blu-ray on their PS3s...then I am quite concerned...as I am not sure how that would be resolved. I sure hope these issues aren't PS3 related...because that's how I plan to watch the movie! Hopefully it's just a firmware issue for some older players and not a disc issue too.

Going back to the alterations made in the movie. With the various releases over the years, with no alterations made, why go to the extent of editing the movie now? To quote and re-iterate a point Strumvogel made:

I find it strange they think this is a good idea. For the new generation? Just who do they think is paying the premium price for the BDs?

If Renato is right in that Mr. Kawamori and co. want to appeal (for lack of a better word) to the younger generation or what have you...then why wait till now to make the changes? Why even bother in the first place with the changes? Wouldn't it be better to leave the film unaltered for the younger generation? To quote Renato and re-iterate what I happen to agree with, by removing the BGM

you lose the emotional punctuation of that scene.

As for the violence...granted it's just a couple of seconds removed that doesn't change how the story is told...I feel the graphic nature of those clips helps give a more visceral feel to the movie. By removing the BGM and removing those two short clips, I feel it changes the overall look and feel of the movie to some small degree. I feel any change, no matter how small it may be, is detrimental in that it takes a little away from the overall experience and that it changes a little how the overall message of the movie is conveyed.

If anything, why not include an unaltered theatrical version and then have your "Special Edition" version included on the same disc(s)?

Conspiracy theory time: Could they have grabbed a print that had been altered and not have realized it till it was too late? In doing so, rather than finding another print they say to themselves "screw it, we'll just toss in a bunch of extra goodies, make an excuse, and call it good"?

I know that's not very likely the case at all, but I have been trying to wrap my head around all of this and none of it makes much sense to me.

/rant

With all of that said, I got a notification from CDJapan that my order has shipped! Hurray!

[TMBounty_Hunter]

Conspiracy theory time: Could they have grabbed a print that had been altered and not have realized it till it was too late? In doing so, rather than finding another print they say to themselves "screw it, we'll just toss in a bunch of extra goodies, make an excuse, and call it good"?

I know that's not very likely the case at all, but I have been trying to wrap my head around all of this and none of it makes much sense to me.

Probably very, very likely no the case at all. In "The Men Who Made Macross" you can see them going through it frame-by-frame at times with Kawamori watching. And he comes in wearing a heavy coat so this must have been winter-ish. They most likely had plenty of time to consider these changes. Shame the new got out quite late but I'll still reserve my judgement until I see it.

Also FedEx tracking from CDJapan finally lives. They're promising it by noon on Friday but if that fails and I have to wait the weekend I'll be mildly annoyed.

[ZenAmako]

If anything, why not include an unaltered theatrical version and then have your "Special Edition" version included on the same disc(s)?

I'm still wondering if it has to do with the game, and the CERO rating. It it's because of the game being on the same disc, you couldn't leave either version unaltered.

[Renato]

I just want to know, who we can blame for the decision to alter a pretty flawless movie, and add/detract things from it? All this changing of the movie only seems to have pissed people off. If it came from higher ups, I'll gladly point my finger there, but c'mon. Do people not understand that changes to things that are classics have NEVER resulted in better acceptance. NEVER.

If you are just talking about the edits and not the glitches, I think it's pretty clear at this point that it's none other than Kawamori himself.

For evidence I point to you to the Bandai Namco statements that have surfaced, with extremely careful wording, emphatically singling out that all of this was carried out under Kawamori's supervision.

Here is the "Notice" that was put up on Bamco's official page, addressing the issue of edited content, explicitly stating that the movie was edited under Kawamori's supervision.

http://www.bandainam...id=741&pid=3361

And this following one is a copy-paste of an email response by Bamco from a query, basically repeating the same thing, but going as far as to even distance themselves from the actual decision-making, by using such language as "over 100 shots and retakes were made for this remaster and some scenes edited under the supervision of Shoji Kawamori, who was the original director of the film...". It's almost synonymous with "HEY, DON'T BLAME US!! IT'S HIM YOU WANT!!"

http://www.mania.com...56&postcount=45

If Renato is right in that Mr. Kawamori and co. want to appeal (for lack of a better word) to the younger generation or what have you...then why wait till now to make the changes?

I don't remember saying that... Or did I?? Sorry if I did. I don't think that is happening at all, I think it's more a case of "It's my movie and I'll do what I want because now I am over 50, so of course I understand what my 20-year old self would have wanted when he was making this cartoon".

Hey maybe Kawamori is THE SUPERVISION ARMY

Edited July 26, 2012 by Renato

[Renato]

OK, I will say one thing in defense of the Remastering itself, with regards to picture quality. I believe I said this to Tochiro after the screening, too.

There is most likely nothing that can be done about the out-of-focus shots in the movie. Yes, there are a lot of them, but I think that was a problem which arose at the original photography stage, and it is an issue with the original negatives. If that is indeed the case, you can remaster the film all you like but those shots are never going to get sharp.

[Strumvogel]

I don't remember saying that... Or did I?? Sorry if I did. I don't think that is happening at all, I think it's more a case of "It's my movie and I'll do what I want because now I am over 50, so of course I understand what my 20-year old self would have wanted when he was making this cartoon".

Hey maybe Kawamori is THE SUPERVISION ARMY

If that's the case then he's going to be in a bad spot as he's more beholden to the fan's criticism as well as that of the publishing company if the sales takes a hit because of those decisions.

He really should have the movie titled as a director's cut as many here have mentioned.

[treatment]

If that's the case then he's going to be in a bad spot as he's more beholden to the fan's criticism as well as that of the publishing company if the sales takes a hit because of those decisions.

He really should have the movie titled as a director's cut as many here have mentioned.

We shall now call it:

SDF:Macross: Do You Remember ...Kawamori's Shenanigans?

[Johnomaton]

超時空要塞マクロス おい・ふざけていますか

[Renato]

超時空要塞マクロス おい・ふざけていますか

Had to +1 that one!!

[Oihan]

I don't remember saying that... Or did I?? Sorry if I did. I don't think that is happening at all, I think it's more a case of "It's my movie and I'll do what I want because now I am over 50, so of course I understand what my 20-year old self would have wanted when he was making this cartoon".

Hey maybe Kawamori is THE SUPERVISION ARMY

No, you never said that. I had inferred from your post that he was trying to send a good message to the younger generation and appeal to them. I don't see any other reason to alter those scenes. I apologize if I inferred incorrectly. My poor choice of words probably doesn't help either...I can't really think of a better way to put it at the moment.

I have met Kawamori and we have had interesting conversations about the way the world works, society, and whatnot. I support his attitude towards his work, that he wants to send certain messages to young generations. That's fine. What really pisses me off is when creators seem to think their movies are still theirs after decades -- you created it, directed it, but now it's out there. The production is OVER. You are no longer the director.

Yes, let's make the Mona Lisa wink while we do restoration work on it. Why the hell not.

I don't even mind the edits that much, really (only the one instance of music change which I mentioned). It's just the principle that I find a completely wrong approach.

Oh, that and the lying -- because Theatrical Version should mean Theatrical Version. That's just re-writing history, now.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Oihan

[Johnomaton]

@Renato:

Imagine one of those abridged videos on youtube: the beginning should include about five minutes of text explaining earth, Zentradi, the Macross, the eighties, why Claudia is black, etc. Also, the captain's moustache is slightly blurred.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Johnomaton

[MichaelS]

It appears all we need now is jar jar or MsT 3000.

[Macross_Fanboy]

This was a post on twitter made by Manga Entertainment UK:

"Pressure on licensees like Manga to increase our prices in line with Japan. If that happens I can't see it helping us to release more BD."

I guess Japan is feeling the pressure of having really high prices for their Blurays. I'm not sure having the foreign markets match their prices would work though. I can only see more and more fans avoiding the purchase of these items and maybe turning towards the internet to watch anime. Maybe it's too soon to say implosion but I don't see how things will turn for the better any time in the near future.

Hence finding such horrible pricing for a single hour long episode of Gundam UC, even used the damned things can run up to $80USD and it doesn't help that Bandai shut down Bandai-Ent.com. So far the last release was the cheapest for 49.99 in some online shop out of Iowa. I also wonder if HG would ever be able to snag the SDF Blu-Ray rights and if they too would cost $350+, I remember the Animeigo releases being pretty pricey when I was a good-for-nothing teenager with no real money. Damned international market and licensing shenanigans, causes more angst than it should for us fans.

I'm also glad I didn't pre-order besides being pretty broke after my vacation and having a another child on the way, my sacrifices in fandom have been great to say the least.