sketchley Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 So.... The answer was that the short was "A surprise" in legal terms (?) and they can't make a statement right now. ..... I'm out, this is ridiculous. Sounds like what someone mentioned earlier in this thread - the HG legal department didn't look over the terms of their contracts with other parties very closely...
Jasonc Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 And of course HG lackey Maverick_LSC tries to claim that Harmony Gold had nothing to do with C&D order. I find this to be a dodge, to get people blaming everyone else but HG. Maverick has this sad sense of needing to defend his poor savior, HG to the ends of the earth, even though it shows just how ignorant he is. You should hear what some people have to say about the mods on rt.com on various boards. It's really quite comical. As HG sent the C&D, they ultimately are to blame. Whether it be due to WB or not is inconsequential. My theory is that as this picked up from the first film, and gained a lot of traction from the RT fans, HG (Tommy Yune) decided they wanted to take and have more control over the project, perhaps where it gets released, wanting to decide where the story goes, or anything like that. When Creavision refused to give certain control over to them, Tommy turned on the project. For those who think this is impossible, it's happened before. It happened to UEG, happened to a fan art publication that was being worked on several years ago, happened to the Robotech Espanol facebook page before that got shut down as well. Those are 3 prime examples of HG/Tommy Yune wanting to take control of a project, and when he gets shut out, he's shut them down. The fact that a couple of us knew Tommy somewhat personally, I can say that I wouldn't put this past him as something he'd do. Honestly, I have to agree with Gubaba. I hope this causes a backlash from the South American fans, and chokes off more fans. At some point, these fans need to understand that what HG puts out, the way they treat their fans show that they don't care about them at all. They just care about their cash. They should just drop the franchise. It's old, it's incapable of moving past its original combined series, and they just don't care about the fans. Why care about them or this franchise? Move on! Macross is a much better franchise that makes everything for everyone.
Einherjar Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I think they'll take the easier route and shift the blame to Big West and Studio Nue before that happens, Jasonc.
mecha2241 Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 I think they'll take the easier route and shift the blame to Big West and Studio Nue before that happens, Jasonc. Mav's already gone that route. http://robotech.com/community/forum/read.php?id=2187907&forumid=31&pagenumber=4#post
Gerli Posted January 26, 2014 Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) So... is this the reason? Big West ? Did Turturro ask for permission to the wrong company? However, the intellectual property rights (copyrights) for SDF Macross still resides with Big West. What this means is that Harmony Gold can legally distribute the SDF Macross footage outside of Japan (ie: the AnimEigo and ADV Macross DVD's) and edit the footage at their discretion (ie: Robotech). However, they cannot create any new animation or movies using the SDF Macross characters and mecha because they do not have the intellectual property rights (copyrights). Edited January 26, 2014 by Gerli
Jasonc Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Considering that this project was known in Japan about as long as HG has known, and considering that BW talks to anyone at HG, it's extremely unlikely that they would ask HG to send Creavision a C&D. They would've sent it themselves. That theory just doesn't make any sense, especially since HG technically isn't involved in the fan production.
azrael Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 So... is this the reason? Big West ? Did Turturro ask for permission to the wrong company? Robotech is a copyright and trademark of HG, not Big West.
Gerli Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Robotech is a copyright and trademark of HG, not Big West. Yes, but what about the "Can't make new animation with the designs" part? ¿Does apply in this case?
Einherjar Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Seriously, where were some of you people when the last fan production that got the shaft? In retrospect, a lot of this isn't new. But then again, the pattern apparantly repeated itself just a couple of days ago, so I can't be too harsh about it. Edited January 27, 2014 by Einherjar
azrael Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Yes, but what about the "Can't make new animation with the designs" part? ¿Does apply in this case? Yes and no. HG, being the licensees of the SDFM animation, cannot make any new animation based off the SDFM designs. Tatsunoko, owning only the animation, cannot as well make any new animation based off the SDFM designs. Big West is the only one who can do that. Technically speaking, Big West and only Big West can make any decision for new animation. No company or fans can make anything based on SDFM designs. Otherwise they all would be open to a lawsuit. But, fan-made videos are a grey area since they are normally done under fair-use clauses. HG is the one who sent the letter, therefore you will need to look at what they own and how this fan video applies to what HG owns. If Big West sent the letter, then one could blame them, but that is not the case. What is in these videos would violate their trademark and copyright? Whatever it is, that is the reason HG sent a letter to them.
skullmilitia Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 They used the Robotech name, even keeping the Font. Fan Film or not, Trademarked names are not a gray area in film. Call me a troll all you want, but I wouldn't want that junk using a licensed I owned either. Especially if I was spending millions on a possible real film.
areaseven Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 It's unfortunate how HG treats its fanbase, especially those who spend their hard-earned money in making their own fanfilms. Oh well - there's always Robotech: Astro Plan.
Gubaba Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Yes, but what about the "Can't make new animation with the designs" part? ¿Does apply in this case? What Azrael said. Plus, you've got to remember that there are HUNDREDS of Macross-based fanfilms (admittedly, mostly people dancing to various Frontier songs, but also some more elaborate stuff) and fan-made manga out there in Japan. Japanese companies are usually very tolerant of things like this, considering it free publicity. As far as I know, Big West has never tried to stop any fans from making films, animation, or manga based on Macross. (Toho did, though, when some fans customized some Kamen Rider figures and sold them for a TON of money recently). They used the Robotech name, even keeping the Font. Fan Film or not, Trademarked names are not a gray area in film. Call me a troll all you want, but I wouldn't want that junk using a licensed I owned either. Especially if I was spending millions on a possible real film. Well... I've seen some crappy Star Wars fanfilms, but Lucasfilm does nothing to stop them. Heck, the good ones can even become kinda/sorta canon (at least, I *heard* that "Pink Five" got mentioned in one of the novels or comics or something). Edited January 27, 2014 by Gubaba
sketchley Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Japanese companies are usually very tolerant of things like this, considering it free publicity. As far as I know, Big West has never tried to stop any fans from making films, animation, or manga based on Macross. (Toho did, though, when some fans customized some Kamen Rider figures and sold them for a TON of money recently). It's also somewhat of a legal grey area (as opposed to, say, US copyright law). In short, in Japan there is creator's rights and financial rights. Creator rights are inalienable (as in Kawamori retains the copyright to the Macross designs) and financial rights (as in Tatsunoko sold their financial rights). It gets more confusing when it comes to the people who came up with the idea, and the people who put in the work to produce the idea (which is why Big West and Tatsunoko went to trial, and the judgment was that Tatsunoko had the financial rights because they put in the work in getting the animation produced). Doujinshi can definitely fall afoul of Creator's rights, but when it comes to financial rights, things get murky, fast. Not to mention that any settlement is probably much lower than the legal costs involved and could ultimately have a negative effect on financial rights in general (like what happened with the SDFM footage)... But yeah, I fully agree that HG is going about things a$$-first as usual and shooting themselves in the foot in the process. Edited January 27, 2014 by sketchley
Gubaba Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Honestly, I have to agree with Gubaba. I hope this causes a backlash from the South American fans, and chokes off more fans. At some point, these fans need to understand that what HG puts out, the way they treat their fans show that they don't care about them at all. They just care about their cash. They should just drop the franchise. I think you misunderstand me. Quite frankly, there will ALWAYS be those who think that Robotech is better, just as some people really thought that Love Live Alive was worth twenty bucks. *I* think Macross is better, but if others don't, that's fine. I'm just getting a certain amount of schadenfreude-ish glee at seeing all those hate-comments on RT's Facebook page. (Don't worry, though... I'm sure a purge is coming soon.) Edited January 27, 2014 by Gubaba
Gubaba Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 But yeah, I fully agree that HG is going about things a$$-first as usual and shooting themselves in the foot in the process. Indeed.
Gerli Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) From Creavision FB page https://www.facebook.com/CreavisionFilms The Big West company of Japan force to stop our project because they have Macross rights. Currently there is not posibility to release the 3er episode. We do not know much more details. Amigos, el tema es asi, la compañia Big West de Japon es quien habria originado el conflicto que detuvo nuestro proyecto. Debido ah que ellos tienen los derechos de macross. Por el momento no hay posibildad de que subamos el terecer episodio. No sabemos mucho mas detalles. Seguiremos buscando una salida. So... Big West..? Really, I don't understand... maybe it was HG in behalf BW but... why? The DYRL Valks? Edited January 27, 2014 by Gerli
Gubaba Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 From Creavision FB page https://www.facebook.com/CreavisionFilms So... Big West..? Really, I don't understand... maybe it was HG in behalf BW but... why? The DYRL Valks? I don't believe it. Big West has never been in contact with Harmony Gold. And check this out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP5mGiKvxI4
Gubaba Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 And why didn't they go after this criminal...?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VAmXWljWTU
Guest davidwhangchoi Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 HG ratted them out to big west so they dont have to get their hands dirty.
Gubaba Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 HG ratted them out to big west so they dont have to get their hands dirty. Again... LOOK at the vids I posted. Big West didn't attack them, and they're in Japan!
Einherjar Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Why would Creavision risk saying something potentially slanderous if it wasn't true? First they say it was HG, now it's BW who sent the C&D. Make up your professional minds already.
Guest davidwhangchoi Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Yeah, im just kidding. Maybe bigwest likes japan fan made stuff but hates anything HG is associated w/. This is just speculation but i think big west thinks hg are d bags.
skullmilitia Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 HG was a law firm turned real estate, turned production house. I would believe that it was Yune's cause, because he couldn't be in charge. Someone should just go to BW who is in Japan and ask, and when they reply "what the hell is Robotech" Then we'll know!
Gerli Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Yeah, im just kidding. Maybe bigwest likes japan fan made stuff but hates anything HG is associated w/. This is just speculation but i think big west thinks hg are d bags. This... I agree with this, but maybe it's just a big misunderstanding. Creavision has nothing to do with HG... well, only the name "Robotech" but they have the OK to use it. Maybe Cesar Turturro did forget ask the OK from Big West... big mistake I fear. Again... LOOK at the vids I posted. Big West didn't attack them, and they're in Japan! Because they don't have a Company behind it (Creavision) making the animation. I know, is still a FanFilm, but to a foreign company maybe the difference is not so clear. Edited January 27, 2014 by Gerli
azrael Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 So... Big West..? Really, I don't understand... maybe it was HG in behalf BW but... why? The DYRL Valks? This post: Why would Creavision risk saying something potentially slanderous if it wasn't true? First they say it was HG, now it's BW who sent the C&D. Make up your professional minds already. What he said. Who sent the C&D? Whom are they representing? This is normally clearly stated on the letter. If we want to clear this up, they need to post the C&D request letter. It would be hard to believe anything they say at this point unless they post the letter, especially if they are changing their story on who sent the letter. As the saying goes, post the letter or it never happened.
Gerli Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) What he said. Who sent the C&D? The first statement from Creavision didn't name who send it, it simply thanks Harmony Gold "Surprisingly received this morning, a C & D (cease and desist) (cease and desist) for the rights to Robotech which is owned by Harmony Gold and we have to take down all links of the project, including this page. We're now looking into the details and try to reach an agreement to end the 3rd episode. All project team felt very proud to have done this, and with the support of Harmony Gold. We deeply regret not being able finish at this time, but we will keep you informed through various fan sites. WANT TO THANK ALL THE SUPPORT THAT YOU GAVE." The Second statement mentions Big West "as the company who would have caused the conflict" es quien habria originado el conflicto However, the english post from creavisión it's different from the Spanish: The Big West company of Japan force to stop our project because they have Macross rights. Currently there is not posibility to release the 3er episode. We do not know much more details. Maybe it's just a translation difference (My english is horrible for example) The point is... we simply don't know Who send the C&D Edited January 27, 2014 by Gerli
azrael Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 The point is... we simply don't know Who send the C&D They can post the C&D request. They can post it or we can say they're lying. First it was HG, now it's Big West. Who sent the request? I'm not asking "What is the conflict with the trademark & copyright?", I'm asking "Who sent the letter?".
Gerli Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 They can post the C&D request. They can post it or we can say they're lying. First it was HG, now it's Big West. Who sent the request? I'm not asking "What is the conflict with the trademark & copyright?", I'm asking "Who sent the letter?". I agree with you. Is the best course of action.
Einherjar Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) Unless people really want someone to focus their Internet rage at, I really don't see the point in needing to know anymore. Beyond a legal miracle, Valkyrie Project is over. It might be for the better to just let it go and use this as a warning for all future work. Besides, in about a year we might be doing this for the next fan work that catches on with the Internet with nothing really learned from this fiasco. Edited January 27, 2014 by Einherjar
Gerli Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 If Valkyrie Project was an Advertising move for CREAVISION... they Succeeded... oh yes.
Hoptimus Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 This sounds like a big mess. Yes technically BW could send a C&D but HG did. Did HG get some flak from BW over this and then put a stop to this? Or is the whole Big West thing a GIANT rumor spun via Maverick and soME MOron over at robotech.com? I feel it is the latter.
Mommar Posted January 27, 2014 Posted January 27, 2014 Really, all we've learned here is that you should ask permission, completely finish everything, then release it all at once so everybody can see it (and back it up) before the cease & desist arrives.
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