YF-21 WIP

[3D-Brainx]

Hello all!

As I promised, I hereby start my wip thread for the YF-21. There is not much done yet, but the general shape is finished (no arms and legs), I0ll start with some details by sections and I'll then focus on legs and arms.

Hope this doesn't take as long to finish as my vf-1

Cheers!

[neoexcaliber]

Sweet. Will you be making it transformable?

[Ignacio Ocamica]

You're off to a great start!!

[Kurisama]

Nice.

[paramat]

That's beautiful.

[3D-Brainx]

Hi! Thanks for the comments!

Sweet. Will you be making it transformable?

Yes. it will transform. At least to gerwalk.

[neoexcaliber]

Come on, dude. Make it transform! I know you can do it if you wanted to. I'm sure all of us would like to see a cg yf-21 transformation and I'm sure you can pull it off based on your previous work.

[3D-Brainx]

Come on, dude. Make it transform! I know you can do it if you wanted to. I'm sure all of us would like to see a cg yf-21 transformation and I'm sure you can pull it off based on your previous work.

Ok ok, I just might

So I finally found some time to work on this, here's an update.

I wanted to add some more detail to this, what you guys think? should I just let me imagination flow (I actually did that already a bit)? or should I stick to the original concepts?

Pity there isn't as much data on the 21 as there is on the vf-1

[paramat]

Beautiful.

Seeing those intakes there ... i still can't figure out for sure where (in the original design) the jet engines are or how the intakes connect ...

Edited August 12, 2012 by paramat

[EXO]

form looks great! GO! GO! GO!

[Ganbare]

Look promising. XD

[Chronocidal]

The YF-21's engines are entirely located in the humps on the back.. there really wouldn't be anything in the intakes but a deep duct. It's why those vents under the backplate exist. In battroid/gerwalk, those open up to get better airflow to the engines.

[Zinjo]

Always a treat Brain-man

[paramat]

Thanks, and after some research at MMM:

"engines utilize air as coolant/propellant in atmosphere"

"2 x banks of pivoting slit nozzles (ventral fuselage) for GERWALK mode VTOL"

It's a wonderfully complex design.

Images from the Macross Macha Manual http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossplus/yf-21.htm

Edited August 13, 2012 by paramat

[neoexcaliber]

Based on the sketches, can I assume that a part of the backplate (thrusters etc) actually slides to the front when it changes from fighter to gerwalk?

[Mommar]

Based on the sketches, can I assume that a part of the backplate (thrusters etc) actually slides to the front when it changes from fighter to gerwalk?

Yes. That's how the Yamato transforms too. I find the comically thick legs on this lineart funny. No way in hell you're getting a plane that thin with legs that thick.

[3D-Brainx]

Thanks guys!

Yes, those legs are impossible to fit "inside" the plane itself, just by looking at the 1/60 yamato toys you can see that the legs are much thinner than the line art.

And here's a pic on how the engines should fit into the design.

I'm working on the wings and back thrusters now, I'll try to post something soon.

[Zinjo]

Thanks, and after some research at MMM:

"engines utilize air as coolant/propellant in atmosphere"

"2 x banks of pivoting slit nozzles (ventral fuselage) for GERWALK mode VTOL"

It's a wonderfully complex design.

Images from the Macross Macha Manual http://www.macross2....splus/yf-21.htm

It has to be one of the most effective GERWALK fighters ever designed. It can reach much higher speeds than oher fighters and transition into fighter almost immediately. I could see it as a very popular design for planet based air forces...

Edited August 14, 2012 by Zinjo

[Chronocidal]

Ick, you know, I just realized I had it backwards.. and yeah, this plane may be entirely physically impossible. If the vents underneath are for lift in gerwalk, then I have absolutely no clue how those engines are ducted. Frankly, it looks entirely impossible, because you'd either need a microscopically small engine, or you have to be generating thrust directly out the bottom of the engine itself... as well as out the actual exhaust.

I had figured the vents underneath were how the engines got air in battroid.. but then again, they don't really need air, since none of the other valks seem to need it. I also easily forget that the YF-21 doesn't have main engines in its feet (though I bet it doess have thrusters of some sort).

I'm tempted to try drawing a diagram to show this, but I might lose my mind.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Chronocidal

[Mommar]

I'd be interested in your mind-losing diagram.

Yes, those legs are impossible to fit "inside" the plane itself, just by looking at the 1/60 yamato toys you can see that the legs are much thinner than the line art.

And compared to the line-art the Yammie is already pretty thick in Fighter mode too.

[3D-Brainx]

I'd be interested in your mind-losing diagram.

me too!

I actually though that those vents where just an excuse to shorten the whole thing when in gerwalk and battroid, I had no idea they actually had another use. Apart from MMM, is there another source that states that those vent are for lifting the plane??

On the other hand, this is the only VF that can still fly without arms and legs

[paramat]

Since the main engines can work without air, perhaps the turbines in the intakes are partially or fully redirected to the VTOL nozzles in Gerwalk and are powerful enough to lift the VF ... effectively becoming 4 engines enabling lift independant from forward thrust.

Edited August 15, 2012 by paramat

[EXO]

I know it's defiitely anime magic but maybe since the wings can morph shape, that can also explain the way the legs can fit within...

http://youtu.be/G6K1-iKCxuY?t=1m8s

[paramat]

... and seeing as those VTOL nozzles are venting directly onto the upper legs and knees i doubt that would be a hot exhaust but compressed air instead ... ?

[MMORefugee]

There was a similar discussion on this thread: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=34651, starting on page 7, regarding the intakes on a VF-1.

The general opinion seems to be this: On a VF-1, the engine is located in the lower leg, below the knee. There's also a fan located in the intake, up in the hip. This fan is presumably electrically driven, and used to maintain smooth airflow to the compressor section of the engine in GERWALK and battroid modes, with the kind of extreme intake geometry that you'd get with the legs bent.

It seems reasonable to assume that the engines of the YF-21 and its derivatives work in a similar way. The main body of the engine is located in the hump at the tail, and the fan up in the intake is there mostly to provide some airflow for the VTOL nozzles in GERWALK mode. To give a real-world example, the F-35B has a lift fan mounted forward of the engine, used for VTOL operation, and shaft driven by the engine to the tune of 28000 horsepower.

That being said, keep up the good work, the YF-21 is one of my favorite VFs.

[danbickell]

... and seeing as those VTOL nozzles are venting directly onto the upper legs and knees i doubt that would be a hot exhaust but compressed air instead ... ?

I think that is why the vents open and close, and angle away from the legs when open.

I know it's defiitely anime magic but maybe since the wings can morph shape, that can also explain the way the legs can fit within...

http://youtu.be/G6K1-iKCxuY?t=1m8s

Changing shape is one thing, but changing size/volume/density would be the "magic" part. Even something like the Terminator T-1000 "polymimetic alloy" can't make significant changes in size and can't become complicated/mechanical shapes.

As far as the intakes and fans, I think a lot of us might be having a hard time coming to terms with these designs because of our familiarity with current real-world jet technology. We want to make sense of this stuff as if has all the same constraints as real tech, but it simply doesn't. They have overtechnology and nuclear reaction engines. The intakes and fans are secondary accessories to optimize their use in atmosphere, and the engines themselves would probably have little in common with any jet engines we know of.

My $0.02, for what it's worth, I wouldn't worry about any of this stuff. I would make everything as accurate as possible to the fighter designs, with zero compromises for battroid or GERWALK. I wouldn't try to mimic the Yamato toys shortening of the fuselage (that was just them compromising the design to make a toy with better proportions in the other modes).

I would, however, still try to make it fully transformable. I'd make the legs fit in the space that the fighter design provides for, and then just scale them up when posing it in battroid or GERWALK. That's certainly easy enough to do, can be easily and cleanly done in an animation, and is better any day than compromising the beautiful fighter design.

I see a beautiful fighter model in the works, and I think it would be a shame to see it get compromised because of the anime magic needed for the other modes. It's not like you were planning to make a 3D print of this thing that transforms, right? So, don't even worry about it. That's what CG magic is for! If you did happen to want to make a physical model out of it, I would just make separate modified versions of the legs and fuselage, idealized for the other modes, parts-former style.

[3D-Brainx]

I know it's defiitely anime magic but maybe since the wings can morph shape, that can also explain the way the legs can fit within...

http://youtu.be/G6K1-iKCxuY?t=1m8s

I always though of that as a way to show that he could control the plane with his mind, as if his hands were the wings and his feet the thrusters, I never thought the the plane could actually morph. But that might be an answer.

I do have to agree with Dan and I actually though in modeling 2 sets on arms and legs just to make it fit. If the OVA used some anime magic, I can use some CG magic My intention is not to produce a physical model, just a nice piece of 3d art.

[neoexcaliber]

Your models look really clean. Any possibility of showing us the process/techniques used?

[Mr March]

Great work! I'm looking forward to more of your design. It's always good to see more CG model work of the other Macross mecha.

On the topic of design compromises, I wouldn't go "full Yamato" if you know what I mean. You can always use "CGI magic" and invisibly part-swap or arbitarily resize, which is the EXACT same thing they do in the original animation. However, I would also say you are fine with changing things a little here and there to accomodate various modes. If you have to fudge things 10% here and there to make it work better in GERWALK and Battroid, go for it as long as it doesn't make the fighter look WAY off. Remember, the original is hand-drawn animation and the proportions of the drawings/animated cells vary by a lot more than 10% from one animated scene to the next. You're in good company if you want to fudge things a little

Pretty much all the line art I have on the YF-21 is on my website, with a few exceptions. But if you need larger versions of anything for clarity, just let me know and I'll post them.

[EXO]

I think I was more or less justifying for CGI/anime magic.

[dialNforNinja]

HOLY POLYGONS, BATMAN! But, so beautiful, even at this stage. I'm jealous, actually. My brain seems to have a built-in 1500 quads/3000 triangles limit without accessories or armor packs, which is good for game purposes but not so impressive for rendered artwork. High end ones in the gallery I just posted a link to might hit 2500...

[3D-Brainx]

Hi Guys! Thanks!

Your models look really clean. Any possibility of showing us the process/techniques used?

It's basically a poly-by-poly technique. I started with a plane object and worked out the shape of the entire model. Then I subdivided the mesh with turbosmooth (I use 3dsmax)

Here's an example:

Low poly mesh

High poly mesh with turbosmooth

Once I have a general shape I collapse the mesh and used that new high poly model to cut the details as neatly as possible. In the end you get something like this:

Pretty much all the line art I have on the YF-21 is on my website, with a few exceptions. But if you need larger versions of anything for clarity, just let me know and I'll post them.

Thanks! If you have any pic of the arms and legs that would be awesome, specially orthogonal views or similar. I still have no idea how I'm going to do them.

HOLY POLYGONS, BATMAN! But, so beautiful, even at this stage. I'm jealous, actually. My brain seems to have a built-in 1500 quads/3000 triangles limit without accessories or armor packs, which is good for game purposes but not so impressive for rendered artwork. High end ones in the gallery I just posted a link to might hit 2500

Yeah, I know that feeling, I used to work in the game industry and our models were about 1200 tris. I'm close to 1.5 million polys right now with the 21

Noy much to show, but I'm done with the wings and the thrusters

[Mr March]

Thanks! If you have any pic of the arms and legs that would be awesome, specially orthogonal views or similar. I still have no idea how I'm going to do them.

Unfortunately, I've never seen any official Kawamori art like that for the Macross Plus mecha. I wish it existed. However, if they decide to publish a "Master File" there will be some orthogonal schematics in there. The VF-19 Excalibur Master File had Battroid orthogonals. Of course keep in mind that the artists who produced those schematics for the Macross books probably know less about Macross than you and likely haven't put in as much thought and effort as you have for proportions. Given your work so far, I think you'll do better.

[VF5SS]

Of course keep in mind that the artists who produced those schematics for the Macross books probably know less about Macross than you and likely haven't put in as much thought and effort as you have for proportions.

I thought those books were done by the super fans. They do sometimes have some obscure trivia like things from old doujins and art books.

[Mommar]

I love the way those little slats on the upper vents/thrusters look in that sixth picture. That's a nice touch. I can't wait to see this thing when it's done.