The Last Samurai

[Agent ONE]

As good as possible without Arnold.

[EXO]

SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

Algren really should have died at the end.  Considering that the rest of Katsumoto's army was practically mowed down to the last man, the fact that Algren lived was sort of a disapppointment to me.  He spent the whole movie wishing for death, and at the end he got to live happily ever after with the wife and kids of the man he killed at the beginning.  It just felt like they wanted to wrap it all up in one happy package.  I sort of agree, I mean, the last two really blockbuster hollywood historical epics both ended with the hero dying at the end, and this one would have been too cliche if it had ended similarly.

I will be buying this one on DVD the day it is available.

Spoilers

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

This is why I kinda glad he didn't die, I think it would have been a cheezy death. Besides there was a theme going where he just kept surviving major battles. I mean he should have died in the beginning from all those wounds.

Jolly good!

[Roy Focker]

He had to live so they can make Mission Impossible 3 Spy, Samurai in 3D!

It was good movie even with Tom and all the historic inaccuracies. I'm glad in the last battle they and the camera actually focued on both leads.

One problem I really have is Tom's is super fighter can kill Samurai left and right. Sure he fought the Indians but that was an Officer on top of horse issuing commands. I have doubts he can kick ass. Later after 6 months of Samurai life he's killing 3 armed man with his pinkie finger.

[Max Jenius]

the movie was pretty coo

[Agent ONE]

...

One problem I really have is Tom's is super fighter can kill Samurai left and right. Sure he fought the Indians but that was an Officer on top of horse issuing commands. I have doubts he can kick ass. Later after 6 months of Samurai life he's killing 3 armed man with his pinkie finger.

On the subject of military officers... Usually to get that officer job you have to be one tough Mother Fu(ker. I know about this all too well, my father is a former 3 star General. He is 70 and he is still REALLY tough.

[Mechamaniac]

On the subject of military officers... Usually to get that officer job you have to be one tough Mother Fu(ker. I know about this all too well, my father is a former 3 star General. He is 70 and he is still REALLY tough.

Urmm, no, toughness has nothing to do with becoming an officer.

All you need is 60 credits or more from a college or mail in university to go to OCS, and then BLAMMO - you're an officer.

Out of all the Officers that I came across in my 8 year hitch, there were about two who were truly bad assed Mofo's. The rest of them were just normal soldiers like the rest of us, but more educated, and hence, in charge.

Edited December 8, 2003 by Mechamaniac

[Agent ONE]

On the subject of military officers... Usually to get that officer job you have to be one tough Mother Fu(ker. I know about this all too well, my father is a former 3 star General. He is 70 and he is still REALLY tough.

Urmm, no, toughness has nothing to do with becoming an officer.

All you need is 60 credits or more from a college or mail in university to go to OCS, and then BLAMMO - you're an officer.

Out of all the Officers that I came across in my 8 year hitch, there were about two who were truly bad assed Mofo's. The rest of them were just normal soldiers like the rest of us, but more educated, and hence, in charge.

Yeah but you have to admit, Officer school is no walk in the park and it isn't the same as basic training. How many officers did you come across that were pussies?

It is also important to note in 1876 ANY soldier was probably much tougher than today's. Life sucked back then.

[imode]

It is also important to note in 1876 ANY soldier was probably much tougher than today's. Life sucked back then.

I dunno. After watching all those specials like Navy Seal Hell Week, I'd have to think twice about that.

[Mechamaniac]

Yeah but you have to admit, Officer school is no walk in the park and it isn't the same as basic training. How many officers did you come across that were pussies?

It is also important to note in 1876 ANY soldier was probably much tougher than today's. Life sucked back then.

OCS is really no different than advanced individual training is on enlisted members. The only difference is that these people are officers, or officer wannabes, and as such, they are put through more general bullshit, but for all intents and purposes, it IS basic training. Basic training on how to be an officer.

Out of all the officers I came across, I would say that 95% of them were no better or worse than any other soldier I served with, they just had the advantage of the college degree which in some people's minds makes you "smarter", but that's bullshit. There were exactly three real badasses I came across in my time. One of them (and the toughest by the way) was a First Sergeant in my basic training company. This guy had earned his stripes the old fashioned way. He started out as a private, humping the boonies in Viet Nam, after pretty much everyone else got pasted, he found himself a Sergeant, then after his Sergeant got pasted, he found himself a Staff Sergeant etc. In other words, promotion by attrition. This was one bad dude.

The other two guys were officers, both of which had been to SF school, so they were (in addition to commanding tons of respect because of what they had done) in very good shape, and had the awards that told the rest of us that they had been to some places where you don't just get the standard awards.

As to the Army of 1877. back then, college was not really a necessity, in those days, it had more to do with who your family was, or who you knew. This was especially true during the Civil War, when pretty much all of the large plantation owners who had massive political influence, became Colonel's or better in the Confederate Army.

It is pretty safe to say that to be an officer in the latter 19th century, you had to either distinguish yourself in battle, or be better educated than the masses, which in those days meant that you finished high school.

Yeah, life sucked back then, but I would submit that the only reason that ANY soldier was tougher than today is that in those days, they did not really have a standing peacetime Army. They conscripted thousands of men when wars broke out, and thousands more volunteered. So, due to the fact that those in the Army were only there to fight wars, yeah, they were probably pretty tough, but after the wars, most of them packed up their uniforms, and went home.

[one_one]

Still undecided about this film. Sometimes don't like Cruise, sometime think he's really good. The thing for me is the film sounds like a rip off of the book Shogun by James Clavell. The plot sound very similar but it's not about an american war hero and is set, I think, in an earlier time in Japans history. I'm not going to go into detail about the plot but a lot of the main themes sound very similar and Shogun is my fav book and fairly reently the the 11 hour odd tv series was released on DVD which I plan to get. Now i'm definetly going to go see The Last Samurai and may love, we'll have to wait and see....

[Mechamaniac]

Still undecided about this film. Sometimes don't like Cruise, sometime think he's really good. The thing for me is the film sounds like a rip off of  the book Shogun by James Clavell. The plot sound very similar but it's not about an american war hero and is set, I think, in an earlier time in Japans history. I'm not going to go into detail about the plot but a lot of the main themes sound very similar and Shogun is my fav book and fairly reently the the 11 hour odd tv series was released on DVD which I plan to get. Now i'm definetly going to go see The Last Samurai and may love, we'll have to wait and see....

No, way different.

The primary theme of this film is the Meiji Restoration, and the waning days of the Samurai, and their control over the Emporer. Prior to the events in this film, Japan was ruled by the Tokugawa Shogunate, and the Daimyo, in essence, the Samurai class ruled Japan right up until Meiji came to power.

Shogun is set nearly two hundred years before the Meiji Restoration, when the Samurai influence was absolute, and Japan was little more than several small countries ruled by individual Shogun. While it deals with a similar setting (east vs west) it is really more of an observation of how Blackthorne saw and tried to adapt to Japanese culture. Shogun BTW is based on the life of William Adams, shipwrecked in Japan in 1600. He had managed to impress Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu with his seafaring knowledge and was made an honorary Samurai and granted a large estate.

Edited December 9, 2003 by Mechamaniac

[Max Jenius]

I don't see why people dislike Tom Cruise so much anyway. He's been in some cool movies.

Basically, its not what you think. The character just happens to identify with them.

[Ladic]

Top Gun, PWNS!

[one_one]

Still undecided about this film. Sometimes don't like Cruise, sometime think he's really good. The thing for me is the film sounds like a rip off of  the book Shogun by James Clavell. The plot sound very similar but it's not about an american war hero and is set, I think, in an earlier time in Japans history. I'm not going to go into detail about the plot but a lot of the main themes sound very similar and Shogun is my fav book and fairly reently the the 11 hour odd tv series was released on DVD which I plan to get. Now i'm definetly going to go see The Last Samurai and may love, we'll have to wait and see....

No, way different.

The primary theme of this film is the Meiji Restoration, and the waning days of the Samurai, and their control over the Emporer. Prior to the events in this film, Japan was ruled by the Tokugawa Shogunate, and the Daimyo, in essence, the Samurai class ruled Japan right up until Meiji came to power.

Shogun is set nearly two hundred years before the Meiji Restoration, when the Samurai influence was absolute, and Japan was little more than several small countries ruled by individual Shogun. While it deals with a similar setting (east vs west) it is really more of an observation of how Blackthorne saw and tried to adapt to Japanese culture. Shogun BTW is based on the life of William Adams, shipwrecked in Japan in 1600. He had managed to impress Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu with his seafaring knowledge and was made an honorary Samurai and granted a large estate.

In terms of what the character go througth, i.e. adapting to Japanese culture etc love stories are there any similarities between Shogun and The Last Samurai?. I've purposly tried to not to find out much about The Last Samurai so it is all new when I go to see it but from what I have seen, these character themes and story's are what seemed similar to me (not the setting and historical aspects), is this the case or did you find it quite original?

Also have you read/seen Shogun and seen The Last Samurai, if so which did you refer and why? cheers!

[EXO]

In terms of what the character go througth, i.e. adapting to Japanese culture etc love stories are there any similarities between Shogun and The Last Samurai?. I've purposly tried to not to find out much about The Last Samurai so it is all new when I go to see it but from what I have seen, these character themes and story's are what seemed similar to me (not the setting and historical aspects), is this the case or did you find it quite original?

Also have you read/seen Shogun and seen The Last Samurai, if so which did you refer and why? cheers!

I think you're having the same problem as the rest of us except you're focusing on Shogun vs. Last Samurai aspect. The fact is the sympathetic westerner hero moves in with the foreigners (or the Amesh) and becomes their only hope while discovering himself is finally getting old. Audience are familiar enough with other cultures where they don't need a guide thru a story. While some are done well still, like this one, a lot of it is going to reflect on one another.

Also if you enjoyed Gladiator and wasn't troubled by the fact it was similar to Ben-Hur and Spartacus (assuming you saw the latter 2) then this is probably more of the same thing.

[mikeszekely]

Audience are familiar enough with other cultures where they don't need a guide thru a story.

You think far to highly of the American average Joe. Something you just do NOT do after working for five years in retail... <_< Many of us here at Macross World are students of history or culture, either professionally or in our free time. Many of us have taken the time to learn something of the Japanese culture that gave us our Macross. But the average American? Don't be suprised to hear people walking out saying things like "That hairy carrie stuff is messed up. Those Chinese guys are sick!" Those people, the ones that reguard Chinese and Japanese as the same thing, definately needed some sort of gaijin character that they could relate to.

Would the movie have worked without the gaijin? Sure. For some of us, it would have been better, even. But the movie would have lost its appeal to the masses.

[KingNor]

Would the movie have worked without the gaijin?

i would have loved to see it with all the main stars being japanize, the american soldiers leading the armys of imperial japan could have played a small part and only aided in the strengthining of the conflict.

i can't remember his name now, but the lead samurai was a very powerful actor, i could have easly watched him with out any white actor to support him.

i stress again, go watch 7 samurai, it'll get any of that bad cruise after taste out of you.

(still, cinematography, costume design, and the japanise actors were very well done in Last Samurai)

[Mechamaniac]

i can't remember his name now, but the lead samurai was a very powerful actor, i could have easly watched him with out any white actor to support him.

Kensaku (Ken) Watanabe

[EXO]

You think far to highly of the American average Joe. Something you just do NOT do after working for five years in retail...

Been there done that. I have retail stories that would either make your skin crawl or bust a gut laughing.

But I believe the average joe viewer stay average because of the way the studios and corporations treat them. I'm not saying they're being kept from becoming Einsteins, but a little imagination goes a long way.

[one_one]

In terms of what the character go througth, i.e. adapting to Japanese culture etc love stories are there any similarities between Shogun and The Last Samurai?. I've purposly tried to not to find out much about The Last Samurai so it is all new when I go to see it but from what I have seen, these character themes and story's are what seemed similar to me (not the setting and historical aspects), is this the case or did you find it quite original?

Also have you read/seen Shogun and seen The Last Samurai, if so which did you refer and why? cheers!

I think you're having the same problem as the rest of us except you're focusing on Shogun vs. Last Samurai aspect. The fact is the sympathetic westerner hero moves in with the foreigners (or the Amesh) and becomes their only hope while discovering himself is finally getting old. Audience are familiar enough with other cultures where they don't need a guide thru a story. While some are done well still, like this one, a lot of it is going to reflect on one another.

Also if you enjoyed Gladiator and wasn't troubled by the fact it was similar to Ben-Hur and Spartacus (assuming you saw the latter 2) then this is probably more of the same thing.

Yeah, your probably right, it's just that in this case shogun is my fav book. I'm shure i'll enjoy The Last Smaurai as well tho!

[yellowlightman]

I think you're having the same problem as the rest of us except you're focusing on Shogun vs. Last Samurai aspect. The fact is the sympathetic westerner hero moves in with the foreigners (or the Amesh) and becomes their only hope while discovering himself is finally getting old. Audience are familiar enough with other cultures where they don't need a guide thru a story. While some are done well still, like this one, a lot of it is going to reflect on one another.

The day when we can have a big budget movie not starring a white guy will be a great day indeed. Or if they don't star a white guy, they pair up two peopel of color. Like in Rush Hour or any of the DMX/Jet Li movies... Can't have an asian guy star, gotta pair him up with the hip-hop guy to make sure we make some money and people don't feel too uncomfortable.

In a Japanese shogunate setting, being able to have a movie starring a western hero isn't that easy so you tend to get into Shogun-style situations. Although Shogun was pretty contrived and definately a "western" story forced into a Japanese setting... And I never did get why they changed all the names of real people.

[Jolly Rogers]

Maybe it's because if they used real names for the characters, all the anal fanboys start to poop all over it.

[bsu legato]

Just think of it as "Historical Fiction" with a strong basis on factual events.

[mikeszekely]

You think far to highly of the American average Joe.  Something you just do NOT do after working for five years in retail...

Been there done that. I have retail stories that would either make your skin crawl or bust a gut laughing.

But I believe the average joe viewer stay average because of the way the studios and corporations treat them. I'm not saying they're being kept from becoming Einsteins, but a little imagination goes a long way.

Really? I thought the average joe viewer is actually getting dumber, because health care is too good. Natural selection no longer applies when you can not only save the life of, but fully rehabilitate people who do things like drive an ATV off their roof to see if they can jump their pool or something. The idiot genes get passed on when they should have died out. More and more morons are born, and they lower the average for everyone.

[EXO]

I'm not saying the average Joe is getting smarter, but as movie goers the public is becoming more sophisticated. Just like when people go out and they don't know how they got home. But if you ask them what they drank they'll tell you how many liters of which label was consumed.

[Agent ONE]

Nah, EXO is right, PPL are getting more sophisticated when it comes to the level of movies they will accept... Think of some 70s and 80s movies that were cool back then but now wouldn't make it to the screen today.

[Max Jenius]

I'm not saying the average Joe is getting smarter, but as movie goers the public is becoming more sophisticated. Just like when people go out and they don't know how they got home. But if you ask them what they drank they'll tell you how many liters of which label was consumed.

I think its more of a mock sophistication.

[bsu legato]

I gotta agree with Max & company on this one. While Hollywood seems to be slowly exiting that dark period of filmmaking, called the 80's and 90's, and allowing some intelligent films to escape, the average IQ of the moviegoer has dropped sharply over the last few years. How else can you explain the continued success of Adam Sandler and Rob Schnieder?

[GreatMoose]

I thought Cruise was very good in this role, though the scene was definitely stolen by Ken Watanabe any time he was on the screen.

You know, it's interesting about Cruise. Have you noticed that he (unlike almost every other actor) usually has actors of equal or better calibre costarring in his movies (ala "A Few Good Men"). I read taht he does this on purpose, mainly to make the standard higher for himself to achieve. Pretty interesting, if you ask me. Gotta give him kudos for that.

[jwinges]

Saw it Monday night. I thought movie was awsome and my wife even liked it. And this comes from a dihard TOm Cruise hater. I can't stand the guy. I just imagined that it wasn't him in the movie. I give the movie an A+ even with him in it and all the inaccuracies. I would consider this better than Gladiator and braveheart.

Spoiler....

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

x

I'm not bothered so much by the fact that he didn't die in the end but rather that when he see's the emperor he's wearing his calvery uniform again. In my mind, By joining the samurai he would have abandon his oath to the calvery. another thing that bothered me was that they made that last charge...yeah it was dramatic but they just as well could have regrouped and attempted another suprise attack or sent a group to attack the cammand from the rear.

[Max Jenius]

Spoiler Parts

Well, they were pretty much wiped out after the first battle. The cavalry was upon them and I do not think that they had the opportunity to regroup... at least not effectively. Carpe Diem.

As for the cavalry uniform; he rejected the bureaucracy that had turned warriors with honor into pawns for said bureaucracy.

Better than Braveheart and Gladiator? Perhaps, but the overall theme of the Warrior Code is still there.