When Was the Song "DYRL?" First Sung (In-World)?

[BEAST]

The real-life song was first really sung for the movie. And the movie has been reinterpreted as an in-world movie.

But what song(s) did Minmay actually sing during the great battle against Bodolza? Did she only sing her familiar TV series songs, as in Ep.27? Or did she, perhaps, sing "DYRL?"?

I don't like the idea that such a classic song only originated years, or even decades, after the Space War, during the filming of the in-world movie, with Minmay & Co. detached somewhere way out there in deep space. I like to think of it as actually being deeply connected with the important events of the series.

But I can understand if a serious review of the facts points in a different direction.

[Keith]

You do realize that you're opening "TEH CANON CAN OF WORMS"

You will get two answers here:

1:Kawamori says that things happen this way if you look at it like this, and that way if you look at it like that.

2:Real canon answer, Minmay likely never sang DYRL since the Megaroad-01 disappeared "long" before the release of the film in 2031. The best scenario you can hope for is that it was a song she released on an album before the Megaroad-01's disappearance, otherwise the song was actually performed by the actress playing Minmay (or a computerized representation of Minmay) for the film.

Choose your favorite answer, and choose wisely.

[Reïvaj]

To contribute a little bit to the confusion I can say that that song isn’t even supposed to be a Minmay song but an old Protoculture one –that could’ve existed with or without Minmay IMO.

[Keith]

To contribute a little bit to the confusion I can say that that song isn’t even supposed to be a Minmay song but an old Protoculture one –that could’ve existed with or without Minmay IMO.

Except that's only true within the DYRL film continuity and or if you accept the "if you view things this way" theory. Otherwise it could very well have been a Minmay song put out sometime before the Megaroad-01 disappeared. The real confusing comes in when you wonder "if" that Protoculture ship really was found surfaced after the survivors started settling back on the Earth.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Keith

[Reïvaj]

Exactly. So the song will end up being whatever we want it to be: a Minmay song, a Protoculture song or a film song; but it will never be all the three.

[Gubaba]

I have to admit, this is why I kinda hate the "DYRL is a movie within a movie" explanation. It sounds fine until you actually stop and think about it for a sec.

[Bounty Hunter]

The movie within the universe explanation was just a comment by Kawamori wasn't it? Not anything in writing? I'd put it down to Kawamori just wanting fanboys off his back. I prefer to think of DYRL as just a retelling with its own neat canon (MII, FB2012 & associated games).

[Renato]

The movie within the universe explanation was just a comment by Kawamori wasn't it? Not anything in writing? I'd put it down to Kawamori just wanting fanboys off his back. I prefer to think of DYRL as just a retelling with its own neat canon (MII, FB2012 & associated games).

It's not only in writing (see the Macross Chronicle for the latest update to the official continuity), it is referenced as being a movie in the actual anime, at least in Macross 7.

[Gubaba]

It's not only in writing (see the Macross Chronicle for the latest update to the official continuity), it is referenced as being a movie in the actual anime, at least in Macross 7.

Alas.

[Renato]

I have to admit, this is why I kinda hate the "DYRL is a movie within a movie" explanation. It sounds fine until you actually stop and think about it for a sec.

Is it time to bring out the "TRANSFORMING ROBOT PLANES IN SPACE/GIANT HUMANOID ALIENS" card..?

[treatment]

The movie within the universe explanation was just a comment by Kawamori wasn't it? Not anything in writing? I'd put it down to Kawamori just wanting fanboys off his back. I prefer to think of DYRL as just a retelling with its own neat canon (MII, FB2012 & associated games).

It's not only in writing (see the Macross Chronicle for the latest update to the official continuity), it is referenced as being a movie in the actual anime, at least in Macross 7.

reckon we just have to accept that there are two DYRL's:

- the true one, e.g. original version.

- the M7 "movie"-version (with a Max StrikeFP-VF1S!).

kinda like M-Zero, where there's

-- the original OVA.

-- the "movie"-version in M-Frontier.

[sketchley]

reckon we just have to accept that there are two DYRL's:

- the true one, e.g. original version.

- the M7 "movie"-version (with a Max StrikeFP-VF1S!).

kinda like M-Zero, where there's

-- the original OVA.

-- the "movie"-version in M-Frontier.

Nah... that's completely overlooking something that Kawamori said awhile back: If I tell the story as a TV series, it ends up like SDFM. If I tell it like a movie, it looks like DYRL.

Later he provided further insight: none of what we have seen are the "true" Macross story. All are dramatizations of the really story.

Ergo: we don't know what song the *real* Minmei (if such a person exists at all!) sang, as they're more than likely catchy pop songs created during the in-universe dramatization of the real story. Art reflecting life reflecting art or something like that.

[Keith]

Macross Plus also references DYRL as a movie "in universe."

[EXO]

Explanation 1 for me. Or I'll wait for the end of Macross The First to decide.

[Mercurial Morpheus]

I've been wondering this ever since Grace said it was appropriate that Ranka sing it at the end of Frontier. A song of actual historical merit makes a bit more sense for that comment than one from a popular 20 year old movie. Then again, socirty is so culture based, it might not matter.

For the longest time, canon had essentially been to my knowledge, "TV is what happened, DYRL is what it looked like". With the concept that neither are truly "canon" one can sort of look at it like the lasting debate over last song played on Titanic - Nearer My God to Thee or Song d'Autumn. Both have their likelihoods and detractors. In Nearer's case, several people recall hearing it, and the band leader claimed he'd want it played at his funeral. Against it though is that most that heard it were far away. There's also three versions of it; Horbury, which British passengers would've heard and the one in the White Star play book; Betheny, the American version; and Propior Dio, the Methodists version and likely the one the band leader was familiar with being a Methodist. None of these sound that similar. In Autumn's case, we have it on authority of Harold Bride, who was near the band at the time and said it with certainty. He also didn't mingle with other survivors, preventing word of mouth to color his memories. On the downside, he's the ONLY one to claim it, and never actually clarified what he meant (he just said "Autumn", which could be a Welsh hymn as well as the waltz).

"What the hell does this have to do with Macross" you ask? One could easily take it as that both versions are correct depending on who you talk to. She could've sang both DYRL and Love Drifts Away at the battle. Perhaps the TV drama omitted DYRL, and then when they made the film, someone decided they liked it so much, it took center stage. You could even take it as a last Minmay song, performed along with An Angel's Paints and they threw it in for the heck of it and added the backstory. If you really want to bake your noodle, consider that the "TV isn't canon" line technically applies to Frontier as well. Ranka never sang DYRL, she sang Love Drifts Away, but since most audiences knew the film, they changed it. ^_- .

So maybe it's not as tight as UC Gundam (which has it's own issues), but at least it's not the Leijiverse.

[Keith]

Macross 7 had a pretty strong take on this issue. Considering the time that had past, and the popularity of DYRL, the "legend of Minmay" overshadowed the actual facts. Basically meaning that (in universe) DYRL was such a powerful movie that people believe it to be the real version of events.

[sharky]

Macross 7 had a pretty strong take on this issue. Considering the time that had past, and the popularity of DYRL, the "legend of Minmay" overshadowed the actual facts. Basically meaning that (in universe) DYRL was such a powerful movie that people believe it to be the real version of events.

Kind of like how Tarantino made stuff up for Inglorious Basterds. I'll bet there's someone out there that believes that's what happened.

[MechTech]

WOW! Don't read this thread if you're high on alergy meds - MT

[BEAST]

1:Kawamori says that things happen this way if you look at it like this, and that way if you look at it like that.

Meh. I hate vague, noncommital, wishy-washy non-answers like that. Kawamori-sen should've been a politician!

2:Real canon answer, Minmay likely never sang DYRL since the Megaroad-01 disappeared "long" before the release of the film in 2031.

Gawd, that sucks! I didn't want to read this, but I was expecting exactly this sort of bad news. Dang!

Communications with Megaroad-01 cease in 2016, and the film is released in 2031.

Maybe someday TPTB will tell us that communications were restored at some point during the 15 year time gap and the movie was transmitted from the Megaroad-01 to the rest of the fleet at this time? Retcon alert! Maybe that was the last meaningful transmission: a sort of gift?

The best scenario you can hope for is that it was a song she released on an album before the Megaroad-01's disappearance[...].

A definite possibility. At least this theory preserves Minmay as the performer, which is crucial. There is something magical about both Iijima's voice and Minmay's persona, and methinks whatever theory we go with, we should honor those points.

I get this idea. RW Moviemakers do this sort of thing all the time. They insert music into scenes that they think is inspiring, funny, or otherwise appropriate that might actually be situationally inaccurate, or even anachronistic.

But I think the song should be seen as actually being a part of the Space War. I don't like the idea of it just being some song that Minmay came up with for an album between 2012 and 2016, and which was retroactively reinserted into the Space War pseudo-history of the film.

Instead, I'd rather retroactively reinsert it into the Space War canonical history!

[... O]therwise the song was actually performed by the actress playing Minmay (or a computerized representation of Minmay) for the film.

I don't like the idea of some other actress pulling off this song. Obviously, it was really performed by the same RW singer-actress, so it seems silly to attribute it to a different in-world singer-actress. And it will forever be linked to both Minmay and Iijima-sen, so I think we should choose a theory that respects that.

I could maybe go with a CGI movie Minmay lipsynching to an authentic Minmay audio recording, though.

Edited June 1, 2012 by BEAST

[BEAST]

Except that's only true within the DYRL film continuity and or if you accept the "if you view things this way" theory. Otherwise it could very well have been a Minmay song put out sometime before the Megaroad-01 disappeared. The real confusing comes in when you wonder "if" that Protoculture ship really was found surfaced after the survivors started settling back on the Earth.

Aha. Very cool.

I'll have to revisit M7 and the history of the PC again, to see if I can feel comfortable with that idea.

---

I also got to thinking, what if "DYRL?" was originally a song that Minmay prepared--say, acapella-style--for Max's and Milia's wedding? Such a momentous occasion would've probably warranted a special new song, and this one is a doozie of a love song.

Then, she might've amped it up into a full piece with instrumental accompaniment for the big battle.

This would allow the song to be in the ears and minds of Macrossians ever since 2010, building popularity, achieving classic status.

Because it's one of those songs that seem like it has always been with you, deep down inside (and indeed, had been around since 2010), the 2031 movie-makers could've then retroactively instilled it with the PC mystical mumbo-jumbo background story, and movie-goers would eat it up.

That would make for a very extended evolution of a song!

---

Exedol could've consulted with Minmay in the preparation for the song. Perhaps he provided the melody, from Zentraedi records.

In that way, then it would be very possible that the movie's explanation of it being an old PC tune might turn out to be correct. It would come full circle, and merge the TV series and the movie more tightly.

Edited June 1, 2012 by BEAST

[BEAST]

reckon we just have to accept that there are two DYRL's:

- the true one, e.g. original version.

- the M7 "movie"-version (with a Max StrikeFP-VF1S!).

kinda like M-Zero, where there's

-- the original OVA.

-- the "movie"-version in M-Frontier.

You jest.

But I found this at <the MC>:

Production Notes: Several episodes of Macross 7, particularly episode 11 ("Minmay Video") and the third unaired episode ("Fleet of Strongest Women"), excerpted the Do You Remember Love? film. This film purportedly produced within the world of Macross has several differences from the similarly named film, The Super Dimension Fortress Macross [the Movie]: Do You Remember Love? (1984). The 2031 film in the Macross world has Max and Milia fighting in space, which did not occur in either the 1984 film, or the first Macross series (1982). It also protrays Max and Milia's marriage which was not included in the 1984 film. (italics added)

I don't remember these alleged discrepancies between the in-world film and the RW film. Can anybody else confirm?

Edited June 1, 2012 by BEAST

[BEAST]

Later he [sK] provided further insight: none of what we have seen are the "true" Macross story. All are dramatizations of the really story.

I dig this! This leaves the door wide open to reinterpretation, and practically invites it.

Ergo: we don't know what song the *real* Minmei (if such a person exists at all!) sang, as they're more than likely catchy pop songs created during the in-universe dramatization of the real story. Art reflecting life reflecting art or something like that.

Now, this, not so much.

Yes, it's a very realistic possibility. New music sometimes gets attached to movies of old events. Faith Hill's power ballad love song "There You'll Be" and the movie Pearl Harbor come to mind, with Hill doing the video dressed in period costumes and in period set pieces. Hill wasn't even in the movie, and she certainly wasn't in the real WWII.

But I just hate to consider gutting Macross of a real Minmay, and relegating Iijima's performances to revisionist music for propaganda. The whole idea (well, at least one very major idea) of Macross is that music can and should be more than that.

[sharky]

Maybe we should ask Mari Iijima. I'm sure she would know.

[treatment]

You jest.

But I found this at <the MC>:

I don't remember these alleged discrepancies between the in-world film and the RW film. Can anybody else confirm?

if it's in the Macross Compendium, it's solid.

[valkyriepilot]

Maybe we should ask Mari Iijima. I'm sure she would know.

that is if she doesn't run away in anger or abject terror of being connected to Macross for the Nth time... a sad fact really considering Macross was her stepping stone to being an artist...

[Renato]

if it's in the Macross Compendium, it's solid.

As much as I like Egan Loo personally, very little of the material in there has citations, and this entry in particular is more of an observation. I watched the "Minmay Video" episode and unless I'm totally misremembering they don't ever say outright that the visuals we are seeing of Max and Millia fighting in space etc. actually come from the DYRL movie, maybe they come from something else, or maybe it's all new footage created for the Space War I dramatization/documentary that they were producing in that episode. The idea that "the in-universe movie is different to the DYRL that we know" just strikes me as one of those things that have become accepted through fan discussions but may just be fallacies.

[Bri]

In my opinion the plot of Macross Frontier TV helps to confirm DYRL's relevance.

1) Richard Bilrer considers Minmay an important enough historical figure to go look for her. This also confirms 'in universe' that she matters and that she is missing (together with Megaroad 01).

2) Klan Klan during the attack on the Vaijra home planet in ep 24 refers to DYRL as "this song" (kono uta) to another Zentran pilot acting shocked implying it holds special significance to the Zentradi. Same with Grace commenting on the appropriateness of the song. Would be a bit odd if all were merely referring to only a movie.

Canon in Macross is a dicey preposition at best. If we go with the flawed rendition theory of Kawamori you could argue: the attack on the Zentradi fortress in space war 1 took a while, there is no reason to assume Minmay performed only 1 or 2 songs. The movie and TV-series merely show us a different moments of the attack run.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Bri

[Keith]

About Egan Loo's citations: While tbe current site may not have references jn place yet, the old one sure did. The information regarding the in-universe DYRL specifically came from the M7 DVD or LD liner notes.

As for Frontier, don't discount the power of a movie that has a story directly tied in with "everybodies survival," and has likely been seen by everyone. Plus many of the Zentradi actively roving around at in 2059 likely weren't even part of the Bodolza fleet.

[Bri]

However Klan Klan and the rest of her squadron, to whom she made the comment, were direct descendants of Bodolza fleet survivors.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Bri

[Renato]

About Egan Loo's citations: While tbe current site may not have references jn place yet, the old one sure did. The information regarding the in-universe DYRL specifically came from the M7 DVD or LD liner notes.

No, very little of the old site did provide references. Similarly, I look at the Macross Chronicle with equal weariness.

Oh, and by the way, here's a link to an archive scan of the liner notes to volume 3 of M7 on LD (where "Minmay Video" can be found), and there is no specific mention that "the in-universe version is different to the real-world version". So TRY AGAIN, TRY AGAIN ♪

http://www.otakubell.com/LDs/index.php?/category/275

[treatment]

No, very little of the old site did provide references. Similarly, I look at the Macross Chronicle with equal weariness.

Oh, and by the way, here's a link to an archive scan of the liner notes to volume 3 of M7 on LD (where "Minmay Video" can be found), and there is no specific mention that "the in-universe version is different to the real-world version". So TRY AGAIN, TRY AGAIN ♪

http://www.otakubell...p?/category/275

Maybe you can ask Egan for his sources, but ...

are you saying that the actual DYRL 1984 film was exactly the same DYRL "film" shown in M7, even tho there were quite specific differences listed/documented by the Macross Compendium?

[EXO]

What I really want to know is...

when did she sing "We Will Win?"

<- see, I left a smiley so I don't get the obligatory eager beaver correction post.

[danbickell]

What I really want to know is...

when did she sing "We Will Win?"

<- see, I left a smiley so I don't get the obligatory eager beaver correction post.

I LOLed! :lol:

[Keith]

However Klan Klan and the rest of her squadron, to whom she made the comment, were direct descendants of Bodolza fleet survivors.

Decendants of members of the Bodolza fleet were also not part of the Bodolza fleet, and as such weren't actually present during "the event."

No, very little of the old site did provide references. Similarly, I look at the Macross Chronicle with equal weariness.

Oh, and by the way, here's a link to an archive scan of the liner notes to volume 3 of M7 on LD (where "Minmay Video" can be found), and there is no specific mention that "the in-universe version is different to the real-world version". So TRY AGAIN, TRY AGAIN ♪

http://www.otakubell...p?/category/275

It's been a while, but I remember his update page listing where he got information from. but as others have said, ask him directly. I'm sure he'd be glad to provide specifics.

[sketchley]

The old version of the Macross Compendium is still available: http://macross.anime.net/index.html

so you can see for yourself and/or provide links to the alleged sources of each bit of information.

I also really doubt that a direct questions will result in any clarification. For starters, he's moved on to other projects. In addition, if a source isn't directly indicated in an entry, it's highly likely that he, or anyone else for that matter, will recollect the specific source. [to illustrate: do you remember the source of that small bit of semi-relevant information you included in that term paper you wrote 12 years ago?]