The Unlicensed Third Party Transformers Thread

[Scyla]

Nice review @mikeszekely interesting reading your thoughts about a toy originally released 2008-ish.

Yes, they really felt super high-quality back in the day (I think I got my first copy around 2017-ish) bin ut the world moved on with merciless speed.

Regarding the toy itself, I have no idea who this is for. I assume it is exclusively for Transformers fans, so why not go all the way and remove the Jolly Rodgers and U.N.SPACY logos and lean hard into the G1 Jetfire toy.

I think you had one chance to release this before Hasbro‘s lawyers shot your operation down so go all the way.

I can’t imagine that this will make a Transformers fan happy as a "Masterpiece" G1 toy Jetfire, once the initial endorphin rush is gone.

 

 

[M'Kyuun]

22 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I feel a little weird doing this review... I feel pretty comfortable asserting that I'm pretty knowledgeable about Transformers, both from a fiction/lore POV and regarding Hasbro's output since at least the mid-2000s.  But, while I enjoy Macross and have watched all the shows, I see myself as more of a layman when it comes to the franchise, and I'm just now dipping my toes into the realm of Macross toys.  So here I am with Fugu Toys FG-01 Autobot Air Guardian Jetfire, a toy that I'm approaching as something like a Missing Link Jefire, prepared to review it as a Transformer because that's what it is to me.  I have no other experience with this mold.  And yet, I'm sure a lot of you will recognize this as a KO of Valkyrie Factory's own KO of Arcadia's VF-1S Super Valkyrie, and are likely far more intimately familiar with it than I am.

I'm going to do something a little different than normal, and I'm first going to point out the box.  Because, boy, is Fugu brazen!  They've designed the box to be as close to the original G1 toy as possible.  The artwork is ripped straight from the original, and uses all the same names and logos.  Fugu just removed the barcode, added a "Fugu FG-01" after the "Autobot Air Guardian Jetfire," replaced the product photos, removed the Hasbro and Tatsunoko marks, and stripped all the faction symbols from the art.  Which is why, despite some stores advertising this figure as "God of Flame," I'm not sure that's actually correct.  The box and instructions just say "Autobot Air Guardian Jetfire."  It seems to me that the God of Flame moniker is suggesting that this is actually a KO of the KitzConcept God of Flame, which was also an attempt to do the Jetfire colors but on a different toy.  But, like I said, this isn't a KO KitzConcept, it's a KO of a KO of an Arcadia.  Well... unless Fugu actually is Valkyrie Factory, just flying this one off under a different label in case Hasbro shuts it down.  Because that box is practically daring Hasbro to shut it down.

But I digress.  I think, given that Fugu is working from a different base, they did an alright job capturing Jetfire's deco on the Arcadia VF-1.  The red and black on the chest, shoulders, cockpit area, and leg fins, the red on the thighs, etc, are broadly correct.  He's missing some of the other sticker details from the Jetfire toy, though, like on the toes, while other stickers have been replaced with more typical Macross-style markings, like the mechanical details on the original Jetfire's legs being replaced with a black stripe and "U. N. Spacy" markings.  There's also the black heat shield with the Jolly Rodger, a carryover from the Arcadia toy but not something that's part of the original Jetfire.  If you like, though, it seems like it's fairly trivial to pop the heat shield right off the slider if you want the exposed cockpit that the original Jetfire has.

Like I said, I'm sure a lot of you are more familiar with this mold than I am, but for me it was interesting to see how thin it is.  I know that G1 Jetfire was basically the old Takatoku VF-1S, and I know that those old Takatokus are often referred to as "Chunky Monkeys," but Fugu's Jetfire (and, I suppose, the Yamato/Arcadia VF-1), kind of show off how much anime magic was actually going into giving the VF-1 sleek proportions in fighter mode but heroic proportions in Battroid mode.  Honestly, I'm not sure how I feel about it.  I mean, from a Macross perspective, the fighter mode is super important and a thinner Battroid is probably just more realistic.  As Jetfire, the toy I remember as a kid, though, I think that chunkiness is almost part of the character.  Despite watching Robotech as a kid (but I'm a Macross purist now, I swear!) I don't think I ever even made the association between Jetfire and the VF-1 at the time.

Like the original Jetfire, Fugu Jetfire comes with a lot of accessories.  More, even.  Sure, he's got the red plastic to decode the tech specs on the the back, the gunpod, armor parts for the back of the arms, back of the legs, sides of the legs, a pair of boosters, and a part to connect the boosters to his back, like the original Jetfire.  But you also get four black boxes with missiles molded in them, four racks of smaller missiles, two big missiles, two sets of paired big missiles, a translucent pilot, a chair, two neck fillers, two torso fillers, replacement TV-style fists, two gun-holding right hands (one TV, one DYRL), two open left hands (one TV, one DYRL), and a trio of stand adapters.  The stand adapters are probably more useful if you got the Deluxe edition, which comes with a stand.  Sadly, I did not.

I should also point out that, unlike the original Jetfire, Fugu Jetfire's boosters and leg armors can come off (because that's how Arcadia's do).  There's some really nice painted details inside.  And on that note, my copy of Fugu Jetfire came with translucent red replacement covers, which could be a nice way of showing off that inner detail without having them naked.  That said, I think the translucent parts were a preorder/first run bonus, so I can't promise that every copy will come with them.

Jetfire's articulation is... ok?  I mean, by modern Transformers standards it's not the best, but I guess it's kind of on par with what Hasbro did with Missing Link Convoy and it's definitely improved over the original Jetfire.  His head swivels, no sideways tilt, and it sits on a pair of hinges so you can get some extreme upward and downward tilt, depending on how much you're willing to break the sculpt.  Weirdly, the top of his head and face also hinges, revealing an odd double-chin underneath.  The head lasers can swivel.  His shoulders are on scary tight ball joints- I actually recommend sliding the outer covers off, opening up the shoulders and putting some silicone oil on the balls, and/or loosening the screws on the backs.  Once they're safe to move they'll rotate and can move laterally maybe 60 degrees, if I'm being generous.  Also, something I'm not used to, the shoulders are on flaps due to how he transforms.  These flaps don't actually lock into anything, which kind of gives him butterfly joints.  His biceps swivel, and his elbows are technically double-jointed and should curl nearly 90 degrees.  Should, because on my copy (and, it seems, most/all copies) the left arm has a tight but usable upper joint, but the right arm is, "oh crap this is going to break!" tight and I can't use it.  The stock hands can swivel, as well as bend up/down, with a solid thumb hinged at the base to move from along side the hand to over the palm, and fingers molded into curves but hinged at the base to open and close, with the index finger a separate part from the other three, which are molded together.  No waist swivel.  The hips are on ball joints.  In theory, they could move forward and backward to ridiculous degrees, but in practice their forward/backward movement is all but eliminated by bumping into his wings.  Fortunately, you can use a special hinge below the intakes (for Gerwalk mode) to get nearly 90 degrees forward.  Going back to the ball joints, they allow the hips to move about 45 degrees laterally, and you can also swivel the thighs around the ball joints for some thigh swivel.  There are dedicated swivels, though, just above the knees, which bend a bit under 90 degrees.  His feet are ratcheted, and when fully slid out (which you technically do for Gerwalk, but you can fudge for robot/Battroid) have some up/down tilt.  However, they don't really pivot.  There's some wiggle in the foot itself that suggests the ankles could pivot in theory, they simply don't have the clearance at the bottom of the leg.  

Jetfire's pegs are simply pegged into his wrists and are easy to swap.  If you used one of the fixed-pose hands the cutout in the grip is just the right size for the gunpod's hand to fit snuggly inside.  If you use the stock hands, though, you'll need to line the slot in the handle with the tab on the inside of the palm.  The slot in the gunpod's handle has another use, though.  When you collapse most of the handle and the barrel you're left with a bit sticking out.  That bit allows the slot to grab onto tabs on the outside of Jetfire's arm.  While, yes, carrying the gunpod on the arm like that is something we see Valkyries do in Macross, it's important to note that it's also something the original G1 toy could do, although it required the use of a clip.

Partsforming is a bit of a dirty word in the Transformers community, but I understand that it's pretty standard when it comes to Macross toys?  I would say on Jetfire they're really optional, but from some angles you can look straight through the torso if you don't use them.  So, for starters, there's a pair of white torso fillers.  These slide up into the gap between his chest and back, with rods at the top that snap into the c-clips behind Jetfire's shoulders.

As for the gap behind Jetfire's head, you have to options.  First is this piece that clips right in, with the rounded protrusion pointing toward his back.  This piece, you'll note, has little molded closed doors on it.

There's a second neck filler that has open doors on it, with a slot in the middle.  You can take the chair and plug it into the slot, and sit the pilot figure in the chair, to recreate that scene in the cartoon where they exit the Battroid this way.  Not that it really makes sense for a sentient robot to have to do this...

With Jetfire originally being a Macross toy, of course he does Gerwalk mode.  I'm not really going to talk about it much, though, because for a Cybertronian it's less of a deliberate mode and more a midpoint in the transformation.  In Fugu's case, a necessary midpoint.  Unlike the original toy, you have to move the arms out of the way to give the swing bar enough clearance to move the hips to the nose, but you also can't move the arms unless you use the hinges behind the intakes to move the legs down to their Gerwalk position.

 

The rest of the transformation is direct enough, since I guess there's only so many ways to transform a VF-1.  The swing bar actually unlocks from the back of the nose (after moving a flap out of the way, and be sure to move the hinged fillers into place before closing that flap up so you don't have holes in the sides of the nose bulges.  A door opens on the back for the head to swivel and then fit through so it ends up under the fuselage.  The chest rocks up away from the cockpit, and the heatshield slides inside, then as it comes back down you need to line up slots in it with the marker lights on his back.  Note that going from Battroid to fighter is simple enough, but going from fighter to battroid is super tight the first time you do it and you'll probably have to use more force than you really fell comfortable with.  With the fuselage mostly done, you can bring the swing bar back into the same c-clips you stuck the torso filler bits into, tabbing the backs of the intakes into the underside of the chest as you do so.  Fold the hands into the forearms, then they fold in but also swing around on sliders to so that the shoulders are touching, then the legs can be brought back along side them.  Use the double hinge to bring the tail into place, fold the heels and toes together, and shove the feet up into the legs.  When all is said and done, credit where it's due, the fighter mode is a lot more solid than the G1 toy (or rather, the Takatoku), which seems to rely more on friction from the toy's joints.

In a vacuum, aside from the chibi nose, I don't think the G1 toy/Takatoku looks too bad, but side-by-side with Fugu/Arcadia it's apparent how chunky the older toy really is.  Fugu is a much nicer fighter mode marred only by the fact that Fugu choice to use the UN Spacy kite on the sides of the fuselage and left wing, the black stripe and "U.N. SPACY" on the sides of the legs instead of the mechanical detail stickers, "001" on the right wing, and Jolly Rodgers on the horizontal stabilizers.  On the flip side, though, you've got nice details like translucent landing lights on the wings, painted marker lights on the wing tips, and caution marks near the intakes.  You can see the nozzles molded deep in the feet, and you can remove the intake covers to reveal painted intake fans if you like (though they're in stupid tight, and I broke a little tab off the one I removed).

One other thing that's a nice little touch... in the black around the canopy, where the pilot's name is printed, Fugu put "Air Guardian Jetfire."

They're not spring-loaded and full of diecast the way the original Jetfire's were, but Fugu Jetfire does have landing gear in both legs and under the nose.  The doors are a bit of a paint to open, but once the landing gear is out you'll find rubber tires on rolling wheels, and the nose gear can swivel and has a hinged launch bar.

Fighter mode is where I think you're going to get the most use out of your included accessories.  The canopy opens to reveal a detailed cockpit interior.  You can set the pilot figure into the seat.  Again, this is something that probably makes a lot more sense when it's an actual Arcadia Macross toy, but I think Fugu making the pilot out of clear plastic is a nice touch, like the pilot is just a hologram.  The various missiles and missile pods have small pegs in them that fit into little raised holes under the wings.  To my taste it required a little more force than I'd have liked, but on the flip side they're not going to come out accidentally.  As for the gunpod, the indents with the tabs on the outsides of his forearms where me stuck the gunpod in Battroid mode are mirrored on the insides of his arms, so you just sort of sandwich the gunpod's handle between them and squeeze so that the tabs grab into the slot on the handle.

Now, going off the box art alone, it's not really Jetfire until he's got his FAST packs on.  Disconnect his legs from his tail, and fold the tail up like you would for Gerwalk/Battroid.  Attach the boosters to the connector, then slide the connector into the gap between the tail and his back.  When it's in far enough tabs on the boosters will fit into slots on the tail, securing everything in place.  The arm armor has clips with slots that fit over the same indented tabs we used for attaching the gunpod.  As for the legs, the calf armor has a hook and a tab that fit into slots on the back of the leg.  Just make sure that the tabs on the sides of the calf armor are pointing outward, because you'll plug the side-of-the-leg armor into those tabs.

With the leg armor installed you'll have to bend the knee and Gerwalk joints a little, but the leg armor has slots that fit into tabs inside Jetfire's back to lock them into place, so once again everything feels nice and solid.  A downside of moving the legs, though, means that the landing gear in them is lower, so the fighter is slanting toward the nose.

This time, the "U.N. SPACY" on the leg armor doesn't bother me as much.  I mean, it's still not accurate, but the black stripe it's printed on is.  However, Fugu went with the DYRL-style Jolly Rodger on the boosters.  I really wish they'd have just left it plain black, then I could stick an Autobot insignia on it (and the nose) and call it a day.

Canopy still opens, you still have access to the landing gear, and you can still attach missiles/missile pods to the undersides of the wings.  You can also still carry the gunpod on the underside of the fighter, because the arm armor has it's own intended tabs, same as the arms themselves.

The extra bulk he gains from the FAST packs helps fill him out and make him feel more like Jetfire to me.  Unfortunately, I don't think you can transform him without all the armor on.  The stuff on the arms and legs, sure, but I found it necessary to remove the boosters and their clip so I could move the tail to open the door that allows his head to pass through.

Jetfire's also a little back-heavy with all his gear on.  The play between clicks in the ratchets in his feet can leave him leaning a bit.  The simplest solution is put him into a more dynamic pose, with his legs turned outward a bit.

Finally, here's how Fugu Jetfire looks with Siege Jetfire and Earthrise Starscream.  And... huh.  Y'know, I've always thought Siege Jetfire is a rather too big.  Might not be exactly scale chart-accurate, but Fugu's Jetfire is about exactly the height I think Siege Jetfire should have been.  Turns out a 1/60 VF-1 is probably too small for an MP collection, but pretty great for Classics/Generations/WFC/Legacy one*.

*Unless you're one of those alt-mode scale guys... then the VF-1 being smaller than an MP Starscream's F-15 mode makes sense.

I have to say, this has been an eye-opening experience for me.  Jet Transformers are often ridiculed for being boxes of robot bits stuffed under a plane that transforms into a robot with 90% of the plane on its back.  And, I mean, that's fair, but I think it's a lot harder to turn an animation-accurate robot into a jet on a Voyager-class budget than it is to design a jet first and work into a robot that you're going to sell for $100+.  But now I'm also seeing that Valkyries do make compromises and do benefit from anime magic, they just priortized the fighter mode and made the compromises to the Battroid.  

What's more, Macross toys have traditionally seemed expensive to me, and I know some collectors have said that they have a more premium collector feel compared to Hasbro's Transformers.  And yet, Fugu's Jetfire (and by extension, an Arcadia VF-1) has worse articulation than most modern Transformers, thinner plastic (that, IMHO, doesn't feel as good to handle), ball-jointed hips on scary thin rods, ball-jointed shoulders, and partsforming filler.  I gotta say, if this is "premium collector" stuff, I honestly prefer the mass-market kids stuff.  To be fair, some of it, like the plastic quality, could be due to his being a KO and not a genuine Arcadia, and the overly-tight shoulders and elbows and the excessive force required to separate the chest from the back are almost definitely due to it being a KO.  Still, I can't help but wonder what a Takara-made VF-1 might be like.

Don't get the wrong impression, though.  I like Fugu's Air Guardian Jetfire quite a lot, and I think for the $125-ish I paid that he's a tremendous value.  With the licensing issues involved a more modern Valkyrie toy with a close-enough paint job is likely the closest we're going to get to a Missing Link Jetfire.  So, if you're a Macross fan that happens to like this deco, or a Transformers fan who wants a more toy-accurate Jetfire, and certainly if you're both, this is a toy I can comfortably recommend.

I enjoyed your thoughts, Mike, knowing that you're far more invested in Transformers than Macross. Regarding your thoughts of the Yamato VF-1 2.0 as a collector's piece, when it originally came out circa 2008, it was revolutionary relative to all other VF-1 toys, including their own previous attempt. At the time, its articulation was next-level- double jointed elbows hadn't really made much of an appearance on transforming toys yet. It may seem a little dated by current standards, but that's because it is dated. Regardless, I still have a warm spot in my heart for it (I own at least four copies of Yamato/Arcadia 1/60 VF-1s) and I've long thought that it would be the perfect toy to convert into Jetfire. I got my wish, and aside from some of the paint details being wrong or omitted for a proper G1 Jetfire homage, I'm still really pleased with how it turned out. I ordered a copy last night, in fact, so it won't be long before I have him in hand. Personally, from a scale POV, I think he works better with CHUG, as his jet mode would actually be properly proportionate compared to general car modes. I wish vehicle scale had been prioritized from the beginning over bot scale, but that's a horse that has long since skeletonized. Anyway, as @Chronocidal mentioned, I'm sure Toyhax will have our backs with some proper decals to make our Fugu Jetfire even more Jetfirey.

Digressing, I mentioned yesterday that Newage, one of the most notable 3P legends scale TF toy makers currently, intends to release a CHUG scaled G1 Megatron that turns into a gun as an option over the upcoming SS86 Megatron which is going to have a tank alt mode. I had pondered whether or not they were just going to upscale their legends fig or build a new fig from scratch, and it seems they chose the latter direction. While I admit I think the thighs look a bit too thick and I'm not the craziest about seeing his trigger in his inner thighs, overall, I think it's a commendable effort and I far prefer a proper G1 Megs that turns into a gun over one that turns into a tank. A tank makes more sense; it's an argument I won't refute b/c it's absolutely true, but the fact remains that in the OG toyline, show and '86 film, Megatron transformed into a Walther P38 pistol, and by the Matrix, that's what I want for my CHUG collection. And so, I've already POed this guy. I really, really wish Magic Square would follow suit and just upscale their amazing legends fig, but at this point any option is a good one and Newage can be counted on for good engineering, materials, and paint. Looking forward to having him in hand, a long-awaited dream come true.

One caveat: it would seem Newage designed him to scale with ER Prime, as SS86 Prime stands noticeably taller. I love my ER Prime fig, so I can live with it.

[mikeszekely]

11 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

Regarding your thoughts of the Yamato VF-1 2.0 as a collector's piece, when it originally came out circa 2008, it was revolutionary relative to all other VF-1 toys, including their own previous attempt. At the time, its articulation was next-level- double jointed elbows hadn't really made much of an appearance on transforming toys yet. It may seem a little dated by current standards, but that's because it is dated.

I'd give it a pass for being dated if it weren't still apparently the gold standard for VF-1 toys.  Like I said, I like it a lot, but I kind of want to see someone else take a crack at it.  Was kind of hoping ThreeZero might pull that off, but reviews of the VF-1J make it seem like more of a lateral move.

It might sound a bit heretical to the Macross-first crowd, but I think I'm ok with some liberties being taken with the fighter mode to make a better Battroid.  Not the kind of goofy proportions that Unix Square is doing, just better joints (hinges and swivels, no ball joints) and sturdier plastic that isn't so thin in spots.

25 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

While I admit I think the thighs look a bit too thick and I'm not the craziest about seeing his trigger in his inner thighs

I don't mind the thicker thighs.  While I agree that I'm not really digging the visible trigger on the inner thighs, I do have to admit it's kind of a clever way to thicken his thighs up.  Back's cleaner than the Legends version, but the tradeoff seems to be very visible hinges in the bottom of the chest and all over his forearms.  Not digging the blueish face.  Still, not a lot of options for CHUG-scale Megatrons that turn into a gun.  Maybe I'll preorder one...

27 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

One caveat: it would seem Newage designed him to scale with ER Prime, as SS86 Prime stands noticeably taller.

Swing and a miss, NewAge.  Now'd be a good time for Magic Square to swoop in and each NA's lunch on this.  Heck, I'd settle for a fourth party to do an upscale KO of Magic Square's.

[M'Kyuun]

8 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I'd give it a pass for being dated if it weren't still apparently the gold standard for VF-1 toys.  Like I said, I like it a lot, but I kind of want to see someone else take a crack at it.  Was kind of hoping ThreeZero might pull that off, but reviews of the VF-1J make it seem like more of a lateral move.

Have you seen Bandai's 1/48 take? I don't own one myself so I can't speak from experience, but it represents a newer take on the old design. It still maintains the thin battroid proportions, however, but I think that just works for the design overall. The toon, like most, tended to exaggerate proportions from mode to mode. Personally, I like it and still love the look of my YamArcadia VF-1s as well.

8 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

It might sound a bit heretical to the Macross-first crowd, but I think I'm ok with some liberties being taken with the fighter mode to make a better Battroid.  Not the kind of goofy proportions that Unix Square is doing, just better joints (hinges and swivels, no ball joints) and sturdier plastic that isn't so thin in spots.

You're right- it's heretical. 😄 That fighter mode is gorgeous, even today after so many other valks. I wouldn't want to mess with it beyond the super deformed stuff, which has its own charm.  I even own an SD Max version from Kitz Concept. 

9 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

  Still, not a lot of options for CHUG-scale Megatrons that turn into a gun.  Maybe I'll preorder one...

Exactly. I wouldn't hesitate, as there's no guarantee that magic Square will follow suit, although....

9 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Now'd be a good time for Magic Square to swoop in and each NA's lunch on this.  Heck, I'd settle for a fourth party to do an upscale KO of Magic Square's.

You couldn't be more correct and the time more opportune. Moreover, I think Magic Square has crafted the absolutely best transformable G1 Megatron in existence thus far.  He's clean with great sculpting, has a transformation that follows the G1 toy's schema (arms form the back part of the slide, chest forms the slide, legs form the handle), excellent articulation, great proportions. The only knock I can really find against it is that his trigger gives the illusion that he has a little tail. For everything else that's done so incredibly right, I can live with it. I want this in CHUG and MP scales so vehemently. I hope they see what Newage is doing and don't just meet them, but exceed them with an upscaled version to match the SS86 Prime fig.  Honestly, if I had my druthers, I'd take Magic Square's current OP fig upscaled to SS86 scale as well, as I feel they have the best OP fig in existence currently. It's more accurate and better articulated than even SS86 and I'd ecstatically welcome CHUG scaled figs of their OP and Megs for my collection. 

[Scyla]

I think the gold standard for the VF-1 is the Bandai perfect transformation 1/72 scale model kit! It has an accurate leg delivery mechanism and innovative articulation design. Something that even the 1/48th scale DX Chogokin VF-1 couldn‘t pull off.

To the design talk I would like to add that Valkyries are first and foremost fighter jets while the Battroid-mode is the secondary (or even tertiary) mode.

Even in the fiction the Battroid-mode is not the true self of the vessel I feel. Plus, it is not a living being rather a functional machine. So to me it makes sense if it doesn’t have human like articulation. It needs to hold and manipulate its Gunpod (and rescue idols) and point the legs in directions to maneuver appropriately.

Historically, transforming versions always put more emphasis on the Fighter-Mode. If the toy designers differentiate from that approach (like the recent DX YF-21) it is usually a big  kerfuffle among the fan base.

Valkyries have canonical transformation schemes built in which Kawamori took great care into designing, so toy engineers can’t differentiate too much from this scheme.

The comparison between Transformers where the primary mode is the robot mode (i.e an alien life form) is not really apt. That said, I do wish the Valkyrie manufacturers would come up with a way to engineer more (i.e. 90 degrees) outward hip movement without violating the design principles.

On the other side Transformers could do so much better than a box on the underside of the jet. Legacy Deeadwing (with all its flaws) shows that it is even possible on a mass market budget.

The best Transformers jet ever to me is FT Maverick, especially being a Concorde. What drags the toy down is the wrong nosecone design and the weird conformable fuel tanks on the upper side of the wing roots. Both mishaps have nothing to do with the robot transformation itself and could have easily been avoided.

Honorable mentions: Prime First Edition Starscream and Titan‘s Return Triggerhappy.

 

 

[mikeszekely]

I don't disagree that Fighter is main mode for a Valkyrie, but I think you guys might be thinking that I'm thinking of more drastic changes than I'm actually suggesting.  I'm thinking more like using a mushroom swivel in a thicker swing bar for the hips, and shortening the intakes a bit so that the entire leg has the clearance to swivel without hitting the wing.  Then a hinge inside the intake could move everything from the Gerwalk joint down laterally 90 degrees, but a compromise would likely have to be a cutout on the side of the intake for the hinge to pass through.  The hinge could still be flush with the intake when in fighter mode, but you'd still have the seams.  Another change I'd propose is attaching the slider for the feet to the inner side of the leg (or eliminating it entirely; the chunky monkeys didn't have sliders), and putting a hinge right around the vernier so the inside of the lower leg can bend out with the foot for greater ankle pivot (something I'll note that ThreeZero actually did do).  I'd probably also suggest putting tabs on the shoulder joints to lock them into the chest, adding some kind of tab/slot/hook to secure the tail to the back in Battroid mode (that's a little more robust than Arcadia's), and maybe some flaps that can fold out from the panels that connect the chest to the back over the shoulders that can fill in the space behind the head without partsforming.

[Chronocidal]

5 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I don't disagree that Fighter is main mode for a Valkyrie, but I think you guys might be thinking that I'm thinking of more drastic changes than I'm actually suggesting.  I'm thinking more like using a mushroom swivel in a thicker swing bar for the hips, and shortening the intakes a bit so that the entire leg has the clearance to swivel without hitting the wing.  Then a hinge inside the intake could move everything from the Gerwalk joint down laterally 90 degrees, but a compromise would likely have to be a cutout on the side of the intake for the hinge to pass through.  The hinge could still be flush with the intake when in fighter mode, but you'd still have the seams.  Another change I'd propose is attaching the slider for the feet to the inner side of the leg (or eliminating it entirely; the chunky monkeys didn't have sliders), and putting a hinge right around the vernier so the inside of the lower leg can bend out with the foot for greater ankle pivot (something I'll note that ThreeZero actually did do).  I'd probably also suggest putting tabs on the shoulder joints to lock them into the chest, adding some kind of tab/slot/hook to secure the tail to the back in Battroid mode (that's a little more robust than Arcadia's), and maybe some flaps that can fold out from the panels that connect the chest to the back over the shoulders that can fill in the space behind the head without partsforming.

Just in a general sense, I think the Bandai DX does about half of those specific things, which the ThreeZero entry mimics for the most part, as well as adding that inner ankle panel you mention.  Bandai did add some coverage for the empty spaces from the top of battroid by adding a filler panel to the hatch that opens to let the head through, and added that specific outward joint at the hips, though it doesn't have as much range as you might hope.  I'm not sure there's actually enough room in the intake to put a full 90-degree lateral extension. while still maintaining the other 90-degree bend for gerwalk mode.

Getting the hips to clear the wings is probably a pipedream without somehow shortening them, but I'd be curious what you mean for the hip bar and mushroom swivel.  Some of what you mentioned might actually be closer to how the HMR VF-1s do the hips, since they forego the thin hip bar for a larger bracket that mounts behind the nose and clips around it, and they do include a smaller clip-on set of wings for battroid to get them out of the way, but the HMR releases accept a fair amount of parts-swapping.

Not sure a really good way to lock the backpack has ever been developed though, short of how the backpack booster mounts lock it in place by presence alone.  A more robust backpack hinge with solid detents would probably be a good start.

You might enjoy some of the tweaks ThreeZero made to the design, since it seems more focused on making a solid battroid figure.  My comments were pretty harsh on it, but I got soured a bit by some paint damage and having to heavily modify the arm sliders out of the box to transform the toy at all.

Have to agree with your earlier thought though, I'd be really curious to see how Takara would approach the subject.

On another subject entirely, I've always wondered if someone could manage some kind of insane collapsing panel origami to give Megatron legs that were a good size in robot mode, but collapsed down to make the grip of the pistol not look like some kind of double-wide magazine customization.

Edited Sunday at 10:35 PM by Chronocidal

[M'Kyuun]

3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

Have to agree with your earlier thought though, I'd be really curious to see how Takara would approach the subject.

Well, when this is their latest F-15 alt for a masterpiece entry, I have little faith in them. 

That said, MP-03 had a far more accurate F-15 mode thanks to Kawamori's inputs. The bot mode suffered, but the F-15 looked good, which illuminates the variances in philosophy between Kawamori's  Macross and Takara's Transformers designs. Diaclone, too, which Kawamori had a hand in designing, also had a heavier focus on the vehicle modes, as originally, they were conceived of as vehicles that turn into robots instead of the other way around. The Top Gun crossover, Maverick, borrowing a bit from the VF-1, is another notable entry as well as the Generations deluxe Scourge which was inspired by the Boeing X-48 blended wing concept. The latter is one of my all-time favorite aircraft alt modes and my favorite version of Scourge. I also like the recent Dreadwing Prime homage, which also borrows a little from Macross design, burying the arms within the fighter mode and using the legs to form the fuselage and engines. Animated's Lugnut, even with his toony proportions, and the inspired excellent main line voyager figure in 2010 are rare examples of Takara's producing incredible non-fighter aircraft that hide the robot mode exceptionally well. 2010 was a good year for retro Transformer plane designs, as we also got the P-38 Lightning inspired Highbrow. And let's not forget 2009's RotF's Ransack, a WWI biplane that, at scout class, was really well done and would fly circles, pun intended, around anything in the current core class.

Kudos to Fans Toys , as, to wit, theirs is the only version of Silverbolt that utilizes the Concorde's long fuselage to form the robot instead of consolidating the entirety of the robot into a giant block that's carried by a Concorde fuselage which ends up folding onto blocko'bot's back with no other contribution to transformation. I've long become disenchanted with Superion toys, as they almost all end up following the frustrating old formula of blocky bots with plane parts tacked on or blocky bots underslung under an anemic aircraft fuselage that has virtually no contribution to the bot mode. I give credit to FT for trying to break the formula, but there's still a lot of bot kibble under the wings and their Concorde's side profile looks too short and too fat. perhaps it's the camera angle, but while the top-down pics look alright, that side pic does it no favors.

 Due to their faithfulness to the 80s toys, Fans Toys' take on Skydive finds its F-16 mode also suffering from the need to contain a blocky bot. 

As an aircraft fan and an Air Force retiree who's been around military planes and helicopters throughout his career, I have a jaundiced eye when it comes to transforming aircraft, especially fighters, which have purposefully sleek aerodynamic shapes that are often tossed asunder to favor blocky robot modes. The number of decent aircraft modes created by Takara over the last 40 years is quite small relative to the number of aircraft alt-moded bots they's produced. I tend to gravitate more to Macross, as Kawamori has oft demonstrated his ability to maintain a sleek realistic looking aircraft mode, especially fighters, and yet coax beautiful robot modes out of them. Notable mention to TFC toys for their designs as well as Touch Toys' recent releases. Chinese toy developers, who've long dominated the third-party Transformers market, have established themselves as masters of the genre and these two companies (or is it the same company having undergone a name change?) are proving that a sleek fighter need not be a blocky bot or vice-versa. The fact that they are using licensed military aircraft and producing incredibly realistic and accurate versions of them that transform into interesting and fully articulated robots is nothing short of commendable. Directly or indirectly, I really don't want to support the CCP, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say I was incredibly tempted by these amazing toys. Touch Toys has a transforming Chinese Y-20 cargo plane coming out soon, and I'm very tempted, as cargo planes are far rarer as transforming toys than fighters, for reasons that I think are obvious, and having an affinity for cargo planes, I'm definitely tempted.

And just as a qualifier, this is a transforming cargo plane I built from LEGO about ten years ago. I endeavor to hold myself to the same standards I hold to other transforming toy makers, a task made more difficult due to the limitations of the medium.

I'm critical of transforming plane makers, but I hold myself to the same, if not more scathing, criticism. However, as much as I complain, I'm not totally jaded: there are, as I have enumerated, any number of transforming aircraft designs that are good to great, exceptional even, and I like to point to some of those as counterpoints to my own criticism. I want and wish for better transforming aircraft and it's always a pleasant surprise when something like Has/Tak's Lugnut (both versions) or Touch Toys' Carefray (the Chinese version of the American F-35) comes out and gives hope that good-looking planes without robot kibble spoiling the appearance are still produced from time to time. I wish they got the same love and care as most carformers, but I guess the rarity of the good ones just makes them all the more special and enjoyable.

[mikeszekely]

8 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

You might enjoy some of the tweaks ThreeZero made to the design, since it seems more focused on making a solid battroid figure.  My comments were pretty harsh on it, but I got soured a bit by some paint damage and having to heavily modify the arm sliders out of the box to transform the toy at all.

I hope so.  I preordered the Roy version... I've got that Valkyrie fever, it seems.😆

3 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Well, when this is their latest F-15 alt for a masterpiece entry, I have little faith in them. 

 

That said, MP-03 had a far more accurate F-15 mode thanks to Kawamori's inputs. The bot mode suffered, but the F-15 looked good, which illuminates the variances in philosophy between Kawamori's  Macross and Takara's Transformers designs.

I don't think that's entirely fair, because I think it has less to do with Kawamori vs Takara and a lot more to do with what Macross fans want vs what Transformers fans want.  Macross fans want the fighter mode.  Skinny limbs, limited articulation, partsforming, whatever it takes to nail the fighter mode.  Transformers fans, on the other hand, prioritize the bot mode.  Heck, the majority (of which I'm not a part) not only prioritize the bot mode, they want that bot mode to be Sunbow accurate down to the animation errors.  And frankly, it's a lot easier to nail a jet when you start with the Fighter and work backwards to Battroid than it is to take Sunbow's art, which didn't even particularly resemble the toys in the first season, and figure out how to make a vehicle out of it.

3 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

The Top Gun crossover, Maverick, borrowing a bit from the VF-1, is another notable entry as well

It came out a lot like a Valkyrie, yeah... nice jet mode, skinny bot mode.  But, like I said, Maverick had the luxury of starting with the plane and working backwards to bot mode.

So we know Takara can make a solid jetformer, when they start with the jet mode.  Which I think they'd do if they every did a Valkyrie.

[M'Kyuun]

40 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

I don't think that's entirely fair, because I think it has less to do with Kawamori vs Takara and a lot more to do with what Macross fans want vs what Transformers fans want.  Macross fans want the fighter mode.  Skinny limbs, limited articulation, partsforming, whatever it takes to nail the fighter mode.  Transformers fans, on the other hand, prioritize the bot mode.  Heck, the majority (of which I'm not a part) not only prioritize the bot mode, they want that bot mode to be Sunbow accurate down to the animation errors.  And frankly, it's a lot easier to nail a jet when you start with the Fighter and work backwards to Battroid than it is to take Sunbow's art, which didn't even particularly resemble the toys in the first season, and figure out how to make a vehicle out of it.

There's no contest that a large contingent of Macross fans prioritize the fighter mode. I'm not one of those, as I display all my valks in battroid. It's bit of an irony considering my interest in planes, but no less true. That said, I love the satisfaction of transforming a valk and having a realistic looking jet in my hand with retractable gear, an opening canopy, and sometimes even moving wings or flight controls. It's a feeling I seldom get from transforming a Transformers jet. I'm in the minority of Macross collectors to be sure, but I doubt I'm the only one who enjoys that aspect of collecting the high-end Macross toys. As to articulation, the only real limitation that most valks have is with hip abduction, or "the Van Damme" as Skullface likes to call it. Still, the valks I own can do a decent spread for a suitable A-stance for posing. I can't do the splits myself, and I've never put any of my Transformers capable of it in such a pose so it's less important to me than having a full range in the arms, a feature the majority of my Macross collection enjoys. Most valks, too, have limited or no waist swivel due to how they transform. Again, it's never really bothered me. I appreciate it when they can, but before waist swivel and then ab crunch became popular wants among Transformers fans, neither seemed that important to me personally. I also eschew partsforming, a necessity among many of the High Metal toys, which is one of the reasons I don't collect that line. Although some valks have swappable accessories and weapons, none of the valks in my collection require partsforming to achieve any of the three modes. That'll change soon, however, when I receive my copy of Bandai's DX YF-21, and believe me, I'm not at all happy about the partsforming aspects of the toy, especially for the price. But, I prefer the battroid proportions over the Yamato's and that was the deciding factor.

As a Transformers fan since the beginning, I differ from the crowd who want absolute 'Sunbow accuracy', an oxymoron if ever there was one. I was a fan of the Hasui approach, marrying aspects of both toon and toy into the best amalgamation to represent the character. I like details, textures, greebles and mechanical bits; after all, these are robots so those things are apropos. I think Has/Tak are doing a good job in this vein with the current mainline and SS86 figs, although sometimes they lean one way or the other and I find myself wishing they'd taken a different approach but overall, I'm pretty pleased. Magic Square and Newage have certainly leaned hard into the Sunbow look, although they still manage to throw some G1 toy details in here and there. So far as taking an alt mode like a fighter or a ground vehicle, I can attest from my own experience designing transforming mecha with LEGO that I always start with the alt mode and work towards the bot mode. I'm inclined to think, however, that Takara may take a different approach, at least where jetformers are concerned, as they so rarely even incorporate the arms into the jet and generally, the jet bits, especially forward fuselages, are undersized or otherwise disproportionate. Whatever their approach, more often than not I'm left with a feeling of frustration and disenchantment, especially when so much more care is taken with hiding bot bits in ground vehicle modes. After forty years of collecting Transformers with mostly crappy jet modes, Macross has become my refuge for beautiful transforming jets; it's my primary draw to the franchise although Macross Plus owns me for numerous reasons. It's just a damned excellent anime.