The Unlicensed Third Party Transformers Thread

[Mechapilot77]

On 10/31/2021 at 12:51 PM, mikeszekely said:

Magic Square and Newage are pulling it off. Why can't XTB?

personal opinion?  cost.  an mp level prime figure will price at around $100 or so (well 2 years ago), likely $130ish (see gravestone).  for them to make an armor for that that compresses out of a convincing carrier (the new age and MS look ok but those proportions are wrong for an Mp alt mode) AND have the combined robot not be super oversized the way mp-22 was i think you are looking at a trailer that would need to cost another $130 or so bucks priced out for consumption.  $260 ish for an MP magnus from XTB with the "questionable track record"....i don't think they think they can sell that.  The all in one likely made sense for cost, size, and the "toon accurate" crew.  granted i'd love to see someone tackle a prime in armor.  maybe DS/TE or somebody else.  heck i'd love for unique and DX9 to rise from their grave and do it. 

[mikeszekely]

10 minutes ago, Mechapilot77 said:

personal opinion?  cost.  an mp level prime figure will price at around $100 or so (well 2 years ago), likely $130ish (see gravestone).  for them to make an armor for that that compresses out of a convincing carrier (the new age and MS look ok but those proportions are wrong for an Mp alt mode) AND have the combined robot not be super oversized the way mp-22 was i think you are looking at a trailer that would need to cost another $130 or so bucks priced out for consumption.  $260 ish for an MP magnus from XTB with the "questionable track record"....i don't think they think they can sell that.  The all in one likely made sense for cost, size, and the "toon accurate" crew.  granted i'd love to see someone tackle a prime in armor.  maybe DS/TE or somebody else.  heck i'd love for unique and DX9 to rise from their grave and do it. 

Yeah. I mean, I'd be willing to shell out $260 for an MP Magnus built like a big Newage or Magic Square, but from XTB? Not without a couple of reviews first.

[technoblue]

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

Yeah. I mean, I'd be willing to shell out $260 for an MP Magnus built like a big Newage or Magic Square, but from XTB? Not without a couple of reviews first.

That's where I'm at with regard to XTB's Magnus. I want to see more before I think about ordering a copy. That said, if everything is as good as we see in the teaser pictures, this will be a great way to add Ultra Magnus to an MP collection. I am also curious how FansToys might try to improve on it or if Takara is thinking of revisiting Ultra Magnus in their own official line. Will MP always follow the all-in-one motif or will someone attempt to give us a truck bot in armor at this scale?

Circling back to Legends, I think NA made a better compromise by giving us a shorter car carrier/trailer to try to keep bot mode from being too exaggerated. I don't really mind the parts forming at this scale, either.

Edited November 1, 2021 by technoblue

[Mechapilot77]

17 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Yeah. I mean, I'd be willing to shell out $260 for an MP Magnus built like a big Newage or Magic Square, but from XTB? Not without a couple of reviews first.

i'm seriously thinking of getting the newage one or the magic square one in case nobody else ever makes it like this in a bigger scale (i mean WFC is OK for mainline but its kinda an abomination in truck mode and too bulky in bot mode).  any thoughts between the two?  i think i like the newage one better but the legs are a bit short as is the trailer....hmm.  the magix sqaure one is bulkier lookign overall, has a stranger looking trailer though its not super short which is nice.  haven't checked the tranforamtino between the two, but i sense newage looks to have some more parts forming?  i guess i don't mind that at this scale either.

[mikeszekely]

10 hours ago, Mechapilot77 said:

i'm seriously thinking of getting the newage one or the magic square one in case nobody else ever makes it like this in a bigger scale (i mean WFC is OK for mainline but its kinda an abomination in truck mode and too bulky in bot mode).  any thoughts between the two?  i think i like the newage one better but the legs are a bit short as is the trailer....hmm.  the magix sqaure one is bulkier lookign overall, has a stranger looking trailer though its not super short which is nice.  haven't checked the tranforamtino between the two, but i sense newage looks to have some more parts forming?  i guess i don't mind that at this scale either.

I don't have a ton of experience with Legends, but the limited impression I've got is that I tend to (subjectively) prefer Magic Square's aesthetics, as Newage skews a little too Sunbow for me.  I also tend to think that Magic Square has better transformations.  But that nylon plastic MS uses feels kind of gross, and it often leads to irritating tolerance issues.  I'd say 9/10 times when I do want a Legends fig I go with Magic Square, but occasionally NA pulls ahead (and even when they don't they're still very good).

I didn't check out any transformation videos on these.  My gut reaction was to say Magic Square, since I like their Optimus better than NA's, but the white parts of MS's trailer look kind of grayish.  I'd probably pick Newage for Magnus.

[technoblue]

23 hours ago, Mechapilot77 said:

i'm seriously thinking of getting the newage one or the magic square one in case nobody else ever makes it like this in a bigger scale (i mean WFC is OK for mainline but its kinda an abomination in truck mode and too bulky in bot mode).  any thoughts between the two?  i think i like the newage one better but the legs are a bit short as is the trailer....hmm.  the magix sqaure one is bulkier lookign overall, has a stranger looking trailer though its not super short which is nice.  haven't checked the tranforamtino between the two, but i sense newage looks to have some more parts forming?  i guess i don't mind that at this scale either.

Both choices are good, IMO; however, I think NA will be easier to find right now. Their Ultra Magnus is sold as a complete box set and Magic Square's initial release was a separate trailer/armor add-on for their white Prime---and that Prime was released a while ago. I was lucky enough to find one on eBay at a decent price earlier this year, but I haven't checked recently to see what's available. 

That is to say, I bought both MS and NA, but I've also been pining for a good armored Prime style Magnus for years. It's quite a cool coincidence that I was able to pick up Iron Factory's Magnus, Magic Square's Magnus, and Newage's Magnus all within the same year. If someone can finally do Ultra Magnus justice at MP scale (maybe XTB?), that would be icing on the cake for me. 

Planet-X's Magnus is a cool voyager but is stylized to the video game releases. If some other company wants to do a toy/toonMagnus that is also voyager scale, they will have my attention. Hasbro's WFC/Kingdom releases didn't resonate with me either. The first siege release has the RID alt mode that I’m not all that familiar with and the bot mode was funky. The Kingdom release updated bot mode to be more G1, but as noted the alt mode is still off.

Edited November 3, 2021 by technoblue

[mikeszekely]

Even though I just said I usually go with Magic Square over NewAge, and even though I bought and reviewed Magic Square's Scrapper and Mixmaster, I seem to wind up with multiple Devastators.  Indeed, I opened that review with a group shot that included most of the Devastators available at the time.  So there was a part of me that knew, even as I'd ordered the Magic Square guys, that I'd have to get the NewAge Constructicons, too.  Since we already did MS's Scrapper and Mixmaster, that's where we'll start today- this is NewAge's Carcel and Morbus.

Just like Magic Square, NewAge's Constructicons are coming two in a pack.  So let's start with Carcel, aka Scrapper.  Carcel shares a lot of similar details to Magic Square's, which makes both very cartoon-accurate choices.  Carcel is a bit slimmer, with more cartoon-accurate bump outs at the edges of his feet, better colors, and, arguably, a better head sculpt.  On the other hand, he's got visible gaps on the insides of his forearms, wheels on his shoulders instead of the more cartoony green lumps, and to be honest I just kind of prefer the proportions better on Magic Square's.  In either case, we've come a long way from the G1 toy (far left) or DX9's early Legends attempt (far right).

The situation with Morbus, NewAge's Mixmaster, is much the same.  Similar sculpted details, like the circles under the chest, the red rectangle, the square cutouts on the pelvis, etc, but slimmer and with better colors on Morbus.  This time I kind of prefer Magic Square's head, though; Morbus' is too rounded.  Morbus again has hollow spots on the insides of his forearms, and actual wheels on his arms instead of green lumps.  Morbus simply has purple thighs.  I do think I prefer that to the saddlebags Magic Square gave their Mixmaster, but you could make a case that those saddlebags are the bump outs on the animation mode (and G1 toy) and are therefore more cartoon-accurate.  Speaking of cartoon accuracy, it's curious how both companies tackled the lower leg.  The cartoon had his leg turn green and keep running down a bit, then flare out with the roof of the truck as if the whole thing was a big foot.  Magic Square has a bit of a ledge near the knee to mimic that shape, but uses the top of the cab to form shins with little feet sticking out.  Morbus, on the other hand, captures the cartoon shape better.  The green section that's more flush with the purple is bigger, the cab flares out further, and that's it.  This might be an example of what I was saying before, though, about how sometimes NewAge is too Sunbow for me, because as an actual toy it looks kind off to me.

Carcel and Morbus come with gray guns that adequately represent the G1 cartoon.  The bigger one is for Carcel, and the smaller for Morbus.  Something new that you haven't really seen with any Constructicons to date are these gold-painted bugles.  They're a nod to the Constructicons playing them at Starscream's coronation in the '86 movie.  On the one hand, they're kind of neat, but on the other they're definitely the sort of "that thing in that episode" I could do without, especially since I'm unlikely to display these guys uncombined.

Carcel's head is on a ball joint and can look up about as far as you see here, down just a little, barely anything sideways, plus the usual swivel.  His shoulders rotate and can hinge outward 90 degrees... some of the time.  If you rotate his arm and then extend it laterally the wheels bump into his backpack.  His biceps swivel and his elbows bend 90 degrees.  His wrists swivel, and surprisingly for a figure so small his fingers are pinned like an MP carbot's, so his hands can open.  His waist swivels.  His hip skirt moves as one solid piece, but that allows him to move his ball-jointed hips 90 degrees forward, backward, and laterally.  Do note that the ball joints are rather loose on my copy.  His thighs swivel.  His actual knee joint bends 90 degrees, although you'll have to move a flap on the back of his leg.  He also has a hinge mid-thigh for transformation; it's not the prettiest, but you can use it as a double knee joint.  A pin hinge gives him 90 degrees of ankle pivot, and his foot can tilt down (mostly for transformation.

Although his palms are cut as ports for his accessories, the pin hinge doesn't have enough tension and Carcel's grip on his accessories winds up feeling pretty loose.

Morbus' head swivels, and unlike other attempts at the character the hood turns with his head.  The joint's technically a ball joint, but the hood limits him to very slight up/down/sideways tilt.  His shoulders are also ball joints, and they can rotate and move laterally 90 degrees.  His biceps swivel and his elbows bend 90 degrees.  His wrists swivel, but unlike his partner Morbus' hands are molded into fists with no additional articulation.  His waist swivels, he can bend to his left at the waist, and he's got an ab crunch.  His hip skirt is also a single hinged part, but his tolerances are slightly different so his ball jointed hips get just about 90 degrees forward and laterally but more like 75 degrees backward.  He's got thigh swivels.  His knees are, due to the engineering across all his modes, kind of a mess.  They can actually bend both ways on double joints, so he can kick himself in the crotch or the butt.  I think you ideally want them to be sort of collapsed, so the purple part of his leg and the green meet, but as you manipulate him those joints are going to stretch so it looks like his lower legs are hanging on by thing armatures.  If you've got the cab windows properly tucked under the flaps on the front of his shins the cab should be mostly locked in place, so no real up/down tilt.  That said, there is a pin hinge at the corner so part of his foot can slide out and in, giving him some ability to spread his legs and still keep his feet flat.

Due to having closed fists, Morbus doesn't have any trouble holding his accessories.  I might as well note here that the ball joints for his hips are much better than Carcel's.

Here's where things start to get a bit more interesting.  Carcel's transformation is fairly simple and close to the G1 toy's, with a few extra steps (some of which, like rotating his chest 90 on his torso, are just kind of irritating).  Meanwhile, Magic Square has some very impressive, almost MP-esque engineering, but due to the small size and wonky tolerances on the nylon plastic it's kind of a bear.

I don't think Carcel looks bad... the animation model was clearly based on the toy, and the toy looked like it was working from a simple drawing someone did from memory of a loader instead of an actual front loader.  It'd be nice if the shovel stuck out a little further, or had a bit more articulation, though.  I think Magic Square's definitely looks more like an actual vehicle.  They even put a little more effort into covering the robot knees at the back.

There are small holes above the rear tires on Carcel.  The instructions don't mention it and I forgot to show it, but you can plug his accessories into them while he's in alt mode.

Like Carcel, Morbus has the advantage of having a much simpler transformation than Magic Square's.  Again, I'll note that Magic Square's ambitious engineering would probably work better on a larger, MP-scale figure and without the tolerance issues they keep getting with that nylon plastic, but at the Legends scale its legs are especially a mess of hinges, armatures, and panels while Morbus' legs just keep collapsing until everything's lined up.

But again, Morbus is lacking some details that Magic Square has, like fuel tanks, a rear bumper, a more three-dimensional spout, a translucent windshield, and the gray patch of the front bumper.  The biggest difference, though, is their alt mode proportions.  Morbus' cab is as wide as Magic Squares, but only a little shorter.  Meanwhile, the truck is around 30 shorter front to back.  This gives it chibi Choro-Q proportions, even compared to the G1 toy.  It just doesn't look right.

Again, not mentioned in the instructions, but there's a pair of squarish holes on Morbus' roof.  You can plug is gun into either, but the shape and angle isn't right for his bugle.

If you're collecting Legends figures, I'll say right now there's no reason to pick DX9 over either Magic Square or NewAge.  Both are so much better that you should consider upgrading even if you already have DX9's.  But picking a winner between just MS and NA is a lot tougher, because they both have different strengths and weaknesses.  Generally speaking, I like the colors better on NA.  I like the size, sculpt, and proportions better on MS.  I like the materials better on NA.  I like the more advanced engineering on MS, but the challenges in applying that engineering to figures this small made out of nylon plastic makes NA's much more fun to transform and play with.  I think the alt modes look better on MS, but I like that NA has alt mode weapon storage.  

I suppose, if push came to shove, I'd probably go with Magic Square's if I wanted simply a Legends-size Scrapper and Mixmaster.  I think they have more shelf presence, and my preference for their sculpt and proportions trump NA's better colors.  And while they can be a bit of a bear to transform, I think they'd be really great if they were upscaled and made out of a more normal plastic, while upscaling NA's would make for figures that feel a bit simple.  That said, it may ultimately come down to who has the better Devastator, and that's something we really won't know for awhile as Magic Square has been kind of quiet since releasing the first two.  So for now I'll simply say both are very good and leave it at that.

[Convectuoso]

Great review, @mikeszekely

I went with Magic Square for the Constructicons, and although the transformation process is a pain, I prefer their overall look over NA. Let's hope they release the rest of them soon.

[technoblue]

And it bears repeating. Thank you, @mikeszekely. 

Although I'm collecting both myself, I appreciate your perspective and the differences that were pointed out between the two. That said, I kind of wish I waited for Newage to release their Devastator set with the paint apps done up like the G1 toy. I feel that would have set them both apart just that much more but oh well. My bad on that one. NA is known for their multiple repaints. 

On a related tangent, carcel is another word for jail and morbus is another word for disease---we do get some creative names from third-party companies.

[mikeszekely]

Well, Magic Square might be dragging their feet, but NewAge didn't.  In fact, Carcel and Morbus weren't even the first two released, so lets go back a bit and look at Vane and Rum, aka Scavenger and Bonecrusher.

Let's start off by giving credit where credit is due- ToyWorld's been the name in 3P Devastators for years because they delivered the largest and most cartoon-accurate option.  NA might not be bringing us a bigger one, but they're nailing the cartoon accuracy.  The head sculpt?  *chef's kiss*  The square on his mask, the crease on his brow, even the hole in is forehead are all there.  The raised, tapered collar?  The taper between his chest and waist?  Check and check.  About the worst thing you can accuse Vane of is having extra molded details on his shoulders and the edges of his chest that aren't on the animation model, but I'm not one to champion the cartoon's lack of detail.

BTW, you can have his shovel hanging behind him like a tail, which I believe is cartoon accurate.  But it can definitely hinge up onto his back if you want a cleaner look.

Rum, likewise, is arguably the best Bonecrusher I've seen (although to be fair, Bonecrusher seems to be the character other companies have taken the most liberties with).  The slab of green body with the purple hands, the red and purple geometry on his chest , the ab ridges, all good.  Really the only thing I'm not crazy about is something you can't see from this angle, but we'll discuss more in alt mode.

Accessories are definitely in keeping with what we saw in the previous set- gray guns for each of them, the larger of which belongs to Vane, and gold-painted bugles.

Vane's head is on a hinged ball joint, so he can look up about 45 degrees, down a little, and he's got some sideways tilt in addition to the swivel.  His shoulders are also hinged ball joints that let him rotate and extend 90 degrees on the ball, plus an additional 90 at the hinge (but only if the lateral movement is up and not back).  His biceps swivel, and his double-jointed elbows bend 180 degrees in total.  His wrists swivel, and due to transformation they can bend downward.  His waist swivels, and he enjoys 90 degrees of ab crunch.  His hips are on hinges that allow him to move forward, backward, or laterally 90 degrees. His thighs swivel, and his knees are double jointed for nearly 90 degrees of bend.  His ankles can swivel and pivot 90 degrees.

He has no trouble holding his accessories.  If anything his grip on that bugle is a bit tight.

Rum's head is on a hinged ball joint.  He can't really look up, but he can look down so far his face is obscured by his chest, and he has some sideways tilt.  Ball-jointed shoulders rotate and move laterally 90 degrees; like Vane transformation hinges allow him to lift his arms laterally up to nearly 180 degrees.  His bicep swivel, and his single elbow hinge bends a bit over 90 degrees.  His wrists swivel, and like Carcel he's got the pinned fingers.  His waist can swivel, and he's got a ton of ab crunch.  His hips go 90 degrees forward, backward, or laterally, his thighs swivel, and his double-jointed knees bend nearly 180 degrees.  His feet can tilt up and down a little, and his ankles pivot almost 180 degrees.

Vane's transformation is probably a bit further form the G1 toy's than his mates have been, but on the whole it's still pretty simple.  The end result is effective, with the sort of features you'd expect; the bucket arm, the mostly flat body over purple treads, and the lone cockpit.  He's given got the little bumps on the side opposite the cockpit that the G1 toy and animation model have, but he's lacking the green section with the peg for the arm that the animators chose to include from the G1 toy.

Vane lacks wheels or working treads and can't roll.  But the top can rotate over the treads, and the bucket arm has three hinges for it to articulate on, plus a small peg hole on one side for storing his gun.

Bonecrusher, like Scrapper, didn't have a ton of detail to mark him as anything other than "generic bulldozer."  Rum follows that template rather closely with the same basic box shape for the shovel, two raise bumps on the top where the toy had pegs, and the simple canopy roof.  The shovel even has rectangular cutouts; they're oriented horizontally instead of vertically, but they're roughly analogous to the ones on the G1 toy.  A hint of purple hands can be seen behind the shovel.  They lack the grill detail the animation model enjoyed, but it's at least the right color in the right spot.  What isn't the right color, what I said I'd come back to, is the purple paint running the length of his treads.  It's not accurate, in either bot mode or alt mode, to either the cartoon or the G1 toy.  I get why they did it, though- in combined mode, Bonecrusher's treads mysteriously turned purple on the animation model when he was part of Devastator.  Honestly, I'd prefer they'd have left it green, though.

Like Vane, Rum doesn't have any wheels.  His shovel has minimal articulation.  But, one of the pegs on the G1 toy became a raised peg hole, giving you a place to store his gun.  And, although it's hard to see in pictures, I like that there's a panel that flips back to create the back of a set in a recessed cockpit area.  It's a nice touch.

I felt that with Carcel and Morbus NewAge had brought some good ideas to the table, but they also had some clear weaknesses that gave me a slight preference for the Magic Square versions.  I don't know if it's the lack of Magic Square competition or what, but I'm finding that I have fewer complaints about Vane and Rum and honestly think that they're a step up from the other two.  They look great, they have good articulation, and the transformations are in that sweet spot where they're not super complicated but you don't feel like they needed additional refinement.  I think it'll be interested to get the Magic Square ones to compare them with later, but for now I feel like I can give these two a recommend.

[mikeszekely]

Legs and arms done, here's the final two NewAge Constructicons, Berith and Paimon.

To be clear, this time I'm not 100% sure who's who.  The box says this guy is Berith, the instructions list him as Paimon.  But since the box has the names on the front and sides, and the instructions have the names listed just the once, I'm going to say this one is Berith.

Anyway... Hook's a tough one to get right, I think.  The head sculpt is good, the depressed abs and chest details are all cartoon accurate, and I like how they painted the "wheels" in his arms.  His "feet" have the proper cartoon shape, with a few extra molded details.  The only thing I can really say isn't totally cartoon accurate is that his right foot and the part of the left foot that isn't the cab are green instead of matching his legs, but to be totally fair the decision not to color them green in the cartoon was an odd choice in the first place that would require those parts to magically color shift between modes, so I'm going to let it slide.

So if Hook is Berith, then this guy would be Paimon.  Initially I thought his proportions are kind of weird, with long, big legs and a fairly small torso.  I might just be used to Long Haul being a bit of a bruiser, though, because he's honestly very cartoon accurate.  The truck details on his chest, the molded details on his pelvis, and the red rectangles and purple circles on his legs are all straight from the cartoon.  Speaking of straight from the cartoon, I love that his colors are unapologetically from the cartoon, with the light gray head, dark gray arms, and almost entirely green everything else.  Too many previous attempts, including Hasbro's own Combiner Wars version, try to work in black on the head, purple on the arms, or silver on the thighs like a hybrid of the cartoon and G1 toy.

One note about Paimon's legs, out of the box they come like they are in the comparison photo.  While he's fine that way, I didn't realize until looking at the instructions that NewAge actually intended for the flaps on his shins to double hinge so they stick forward and come more straight down to his feet, as above.

Anyway... you'll be so surprised to hear the set comes with two unpainted gray guns with fairly cartoonish sculpts (the one with the scope is Berith's) and a pair of gold-painted bugles.

Berith's articulation seems a bit limited, perhaps as a concession to his combined mode?  Anyway, his head is on a ball joint, but between the shape of his head and those panels over his collar he gets just a little downward tilt and an almost imperceptibly small swivel.  His ball-jointed shoulders can rotate and extend 90 degrees laterally.  His biceps swivel, and his elbows bend just a hair over 90 degrees.  His wrists swivel, and he's got the same pinned fingers as Carcel and Rum.  No waist swivel (I think it would have been possible to have included one), but he does have 90 degrees of ab crunch.  Ball jointed hips get 90 degrees laterally, but slightly less than that forward and backward.  His thighs swivel, and his double-jointed knees bend 180 degrees.  No upward tilt, but due to transformation his feet can tilt down, and his ankles can pivot 90 degrees.

Once again, because of pinned fingers, his grip on his accessories is a bit loose.  This time, though, opening his hand is necessary for transformation, so what are you going to do?

Paimon's head is on a ball joint that swivels and looks down a bit.  He can't really look up with it, but there's a transformation hinge you can use to get him to look up with.  Just don't push it too far, as it breaks the sculpt.  His ball-jointed shoulders rotate and extend a little under 90 degrees laterally, as those tires get in the way.  His elbows and biceps are a little weird.  There's a ball joint that serves as his bicep swivel and 90 degrees of elbow bend.  There's a hinge, too, that you can use to get an extra 90 degrees of elbow bend, but it's above the ball joint and therefore above the bicep swivel.  His wrists swivel, and he's got the same pinned hands (making Morbus and Vane the oddballs).  His waist swivels, and he's got 90 degrees of ab crunch.  His hips go 90 degrees forward, backward, or laterally, no problems, and his thigs swivel.  OK, now his knees... you might be inclined to bend him as the red and purple are on knee pads, and you'll find that he's got less than 90 degrees of bend there because the tires on the backs of his legs are in the way.  However, (although I wished it tabbed in better), that's actually part of his thigh, and his knees are the double hinges below it.  That said, even though you have a double joint you're not going to get much more than 90 degrees of bend, and again it's because of the wheels on the backs of his thighs.  No up/down tilt on his feet, but they've got 90 degrees of ankle pivot.

Same deal as Berith, his grip on his accessories is a bit more tenuous than I'd like because of those pinned fingers.  Of the pinned hand crew, though, he probably holds his stuff the best.

Berith's alt mode is... ok.  My first thought was that the hook on the crane and the extending part of the boom looked wrong because the hook is facing the wrong way and the boom extension is purple, but that actually seems to be cartoon accurate.  The animation model, though, otherwise looked very much like the G1 toy, including the joints and what have you for transforming into combined mode, just with the chrome bits colored green.  Berith, by extension, seems a little too cohesive, especially along the sides as the truck runs more or less unbroken and smooth from the front wheels to the back.

Berith's crane deck can rotate, the boom extends, and the hook has a hinge.  There's a peg hole on his back where you can set the gun, but it's in the way of the boom and the fit is very loose.  There's also a peg hole above the left front tire that the gun fits into a little better.

Paimon seems to shrink for his transformation.  The resulting dump truck is fairly cartoon accurate; I think the worst thing I can say is that it doesn't have the purple chevron next to the cabin where the animators colored the visible robot eyes on the toy.  I'm just surprised by how much smaller it gets than the G1 toy.  It even does some interesting things with how his chest actually expands when forming the front of the truck, although there's definitely a running theme of "kind of similar to how the G1 toy did it, and nowhere near as complicated as Magic Square".

His legs do a good job shifting at the knees and shin flaps to give him a nice, deep bed.  It doesn't really articulate, though.  I mean, you could if you really wanted to, but the roof over the cab is actually the bottom of his feet and will go with the bed, plus you'll wind up exposing his robot head.  Oh, and it's a good thing his bed is deep, because he's the only one of the six with no real alt mode weapon storage, so I guess just chuck his gun into the back.

Overall, this is another pretty good set from NewAge, but with a couple of flaws.  I'm not a fan of Berith's lack of waist swivel, because I'm pretty sure it could have still been done.  He's also got the same chest rotation element for transformation that Carcel has, and I don't like it any more on Berith.  Paimon's the better of the duo, but the lack of weapon storage on his alt mode seems like an odd omission, and I wish the part of this thighs that's formed from the bed of the dump truck would secure to the rest of this thigh better.  Of the six, Berith's probably the second-worst overall, but Paimon's one of the better ones.  Taken all together, we'll have to see tomorrow how the combined mode is but NewAge delivered a good, slightly flawed, mostly fun set of Legends-sized Constructions that I'd recommend in a vaccuum, but it remains to be seen how the rest of Magic Square's are going to stack up.

(On that note, sounds like Magic Square's Scavenger and Bonecrusher should be releasing soon, possibly by the end of the month).

[Convectuoso]

At last an update on these guys

Edited November 5, 2021 by Convectuoso
Added pictures

[mikeszekely]

"Constructicons!  Transform and merge into Devastator!"

"...we can't."

Carcel's arms rotate 180 degrees and lock back in, and he stands up on his shovel.  A toe comes out of Morbus' upturned cab, the wheels flip over flat, and a forked tab locks the cab in place.  Berith uses an armature for the truck to split in half and bend around.  Paimon's legs bend 90 degrees at the hips.  And Rum and Vane more or less stay the same (actually you'll want to fold Rum's seat and canopy down, but that's about it.  And, yeah, that's not really enough to combine.  There's no head or forearms.  No chest shield.  Folding Paimon at his own hips isn't creating hips and thighs for the gestalt.  For that, NewAge has us going with the ol' partsforming solution to combiners, and to get those parts you have to buy a whole fourth set.

Partsforming, especially with Devastators, is nothing new.  I mean, even if we ignore the gun and the head cannon (and the other packed in missiles and drills), the G1 toy had a separate head, chest shield, forearms, hands, pelvis, and crotch.  In terms of separated parts, NewAge actually has a lot less with their Hephaestus kit, which contains... well, about 75% of the gestalt body and a rifle.  Nothing is designed to come apart from that body; the chest shield, the hands, the head, it's all attached.  I have strongly mixed feelings here.  On the one hand, as I've noted, partsforming has always been a thing.  While I applaud MMC's "all-built-in" gimmick with their combiners I've never viewed it as a necessity.  If Prime's trailer can just appear out of nowhere, so can combiner hands and chests, and there is an argument to be had that "pants" adds articulation and stability to the gestalt.  On the other hand, between this and the various Menasors I've collected, I'm getting tired of the majority of the gestalt being a separate, almost complete robot on it's own that you decorate with the team members.  I also find it a little off-putting when you buy all the team members then you still have to make another purchase before you can combine them.  At least the Hephaestus set is a lot cheaper than an XTB Monolith trailer.

OK, let's put them together.  Split Carcel's legs then wrap them around the T-shaped tab on Hephaestus' right knee.

For Morbus, you want to line these two slots with tabs on Hephaestus' left knee.  Then, with the mixing drum extended an extra level, use a slot and a tab on the spout to connecting into a slot and tab on the front of Hephaestus' knee.

There are two hooks you'll need to undo on the top of Hephaestus.  Once they're unlatched his top can fold back, and his flanks and arms can move out and down.  That'll give you the room to insert Berith behind the chest plate.  Then just close it all back up and close the latches.

Paimon feels the most superfluous to the gestalt.  Push the upper half of Hephaestus forward to expose a cavity in his torso.  Stuff Paimon in so that a slot under his own pelvis fits onto a tab at the back of the cavity in Hephaestus' body.  Paimon's legs are still dangling out the back.  You can lock them in place by using a small hinged part on Hephaestus' back, plugging it into two square holes on the back of Paimon's legs.

Finally, we have the arms.  From excavator mode, fold down and open Vane's legs, wrap them around Hephaestus' right shoulder so that the tabs on the shoulder fit into slots on Vane's legs.  Then bend the rest of Vane back down so he plugs into that big peg on Hephaestus' bicep.  Rum is the easiest to attach.  There's two tabs on Hephaestus' left shoulder, and two slots on Rum's underside when he's in bulldozer mode.  Just line them up and plug him in.

I might have preferred if the Constructicons themselves made up a little more of Hephaestus' body, but it's hard to argue with the results.  We started with robots roughly the size of the G1 toys that often turned into smaller vehicles than the G1 toys, and we got a gestalt that stands significantly taller than either the G1 or DX9's aging Hulkie.  It's also a very proportional figure; his arms aren't too long, his chest isn't too broad, his waist isn't too narrow, etc.

Hephaestus is also taller than Iron Factory's Bruticus, and somewhat surprisingly is very close in height to Magic Square's Menasor (which makes me think that, despite having smaller Constructicons, Hephaestus will probably be similar in size to Magic Square's Devastator, but time will tell).  Well, mass-shifting is often touted as another benefit of partsforming.

While I'm curious to see how Magic Square's Devastator and/or a crop of newer MP Devastators than the aging Constructor turn out, Hephaestus is arguably the most cartoon-accurate Devastator you can get that still transforms- Before and After's Engineer General still being the most cartoon accurate overall.  But, frankly, have you looked at Devastator's animation model?  Mixmaster's cab gets weirdly tall, Scrapper becomes an I-shaped block with a shovel and stilts, they both loose their wheels, and Scavenger loses his shovel.  It's honestly impressive how much NewAge still managed to copy from the animation model; a toe still folds out of Morbus' cab, and I didn't bother with it but you can fold in all but two of the teeth on Carcel's shovel.  Carcel's body combines with the knee to make the I-shape, albeit an elongated one, and molded detail still splits that thigh.  His crotch and hip joints are purple, like the cartoon, and as I mentioned when I reviewed him the sides of Rum's treads are purple to reflect the animation mode, where they magically change colors.

While Devastator definitely had eyes in some episodes, he's probably best remembered for having a visor.  NewAge has you covered!  Lift his forehead up and inside there's a translucent visor you can fold out.  Personally, even if I didn't normally prefer the visored look, I think its the way to go here as it's noticeably red while the eyes are a little dead.  NewAge did include a light up gimmick, but that's really no excuse as companies like MMC have shown with their Bruticus that it's totally possible to have painted eyes that look good with the lights off but still light up.

Hephaestus' articulation is quite good, probably due to most of the joints being supplied by the Hephaestus body and not the Constructicons.  His head's on a ball joint that can look up and down some, plus has some decent sideways tilt in addition to the usual swivel.  His shoulders rotate, no problem.  His right shoulder can move about 45 degrees laterally, his left more like 60-70.  His biceps swivel, and his elbows bend over 90 degrees, revealing some diecast pistons in the process.  His wrists swivel and have a hinge for folding up so he can push his palm into the ground.  All of his fingers and thumbs are on ball joints at the base, which lets them fold over the palm but also splay outward.  Then each digit also has an addition pin-hinge knuckle.  His waist swivels, and he's got about 45 degrees of ab crunch at the waist.  If you need more, you can fold below the chest, where you open him to install Paimon.  The chest plate is even on hinges so it moves out and forward instead of bending in with his chest.  His hip skirts are all hinged, allow him to move his hips 90 degrees forward, backward, and laterally.  The lateral joints are even ratcheted.  His thighs swivel, and his knees are are double-jointed for nearly 180 degrees of bend.  As the first joint, a friction hinge, moves it'll expose diecast pistons like his elbows did, plus the front of his thigh will slide down like some Gundam models.  The second hinge is ratcheted, and I find myself strongly wishing that both were.  While the tolerances on the friction joints aren't bad, there's so much weight above them that I found it difficult to get him into the above pose because the friction joint in the knee kept collapsing.  Moving on, Carcel's waist joint is hindered only by his canopy getting caught on his ankles, so it's effectively an ankle swivel.  Neither foot has any up/down tilt, but NewAge did build ankle pivots into Carcel and Mobus' waists.  

Aside from the friction knees, the only other trouble you'll run into posing Hephaestus is that he tends to be a little back heavy.  They did build a heel spur into Morbus, but Carcel doesn't have one.  What's more, Carcel's arms are straight, like the G1, Combiner Wars, and honestly most 3P Devastators to date.  But if you look at the animation model, Scrapper's arms were sort of angled (which is apparently what Magic Square is doing).  If NewAge had tried for something more like that it'd have given Hephaestus more of a heel, made him more stable, and had the benefit of being more cartoon accurate.

Hephaestus holds his gun in an MP-style fashion, with tabs on the handle that plug into slots on the palms before wrapping the fingers around the handle.  Like his head, you can open the gun to install batteries.  There's an LED at the tip of the barrel, but there also seems to be a speaker on the PCB.  Unfortunately, I swear there's some kind of unspoken rule in China that everything has to use a different batteries, so despite having a pile of various button cells I don't have any that fit in the gun to test it.

Unless you're really put off by the partsforming, there's a lot to like with Hephaestus.  And honestly, even though I'm not loving the necessity of a extra purchase just to combine the six Combaticons, the total price isn't that much different than what I paid for Magic Square's Menasor ($283 for all NewAge sets at TFSafari vs $280 for the three Stunticon sets from The Chosen Prime).  And if we assume that Magic Square includes everything you need to make Devastator without any additional sets, and that the third set costs the same as the first two (which, honestly, might be a big assumption), it'll be at least $260.  So I can't say that the total price isn't fair.  Honestly, for now I'd give Hephaestus a recommend.  Aesthetically he's the best transforming Devastator on the market so far, making me realize that Constructor is just begging to be replaced by something a lot more cartoon accurate, and Hulkie's looking so bad now that you're definitely going to want to swap him out for your Legends collection.  Really, the only reasons not to pick up Hephaestus are you're waiting for Magic Square or you're just not into Legends.

[Convectuoso]

Great Hephaestus review, @mikeszekely

Some updated pictures of Magic Square's Prime version 2.0

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Thanks for the pictures Convectuoso!!

Guess I'm in.

[Convectuoso]

More pictures:

[mikeszekely]

Magic Square's new Prime looks a lot more like MP-44 or Transform Element's Prime.  Good for anyone who likes that super Sunbow look, but I'll stick with the first version, which matches the Magic Square Prime I have in my MP collection.😁

[David Hingtgen]

Give me silver thighs, waist, and stripe.  I will never accept him having a white bumper and grill etc.    ::insert "Superman's hair doesn't have blue streaks" argument here::

It still boggles me that so many companies do so many versions and repaints, yet still never do that obvious  basic color combo.  

Basically I want the G1 toy colors, but not slavishly G1----blue eyes, not yellow, etc.   Or put another another way----"fix" the toon colors to make sense based on the alt mode.  Chrome/silver/metal not white.  And it makes no sense to have faux-stripes in bot mode when they don't put them on alt-mode... (have silver stripes in both modes so it makes sense----they're drawn on the model sheet yet colored red----another "persistent animation error")

[technoblue]

It's not a deal-breaker for me, but it would have been cool to see fewer MP-44 tricks at Legends scale in this updated Prime. I'm not sure the false gas tanks work as well as they do on the Masterpiece, and MP-44 is already compromised with so many false parts, although Magic Square was clearly inspired by the larger toy here. I do like their implementation of the fake chest/truck windows more than the double-thick chest that Newage went with.

[M'Kyuun]

3 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Magic Square's new Prime looks a lot more like MP-44 or Transform Element's Prime.  Good for anyone who likes that super Sunbow look, but I'll stick with the first version, which matches the Magic Square Prime I have in my MP collection.😁

I passed on the first version, as I was trying hard not to get sucked into collecting legends at the time. I've since changed my stance, and bought a number of figs that piqued my interest, including both NA's and MS' Megatrons, the latter of which is just impressive. So, I decided to get their V2, as it's shaping up to be an impressive fig as well, and I much prfer their solutions over NA's for how they impact the final fig (I didn't like the obvious sandwiched windshields on NA's Prime).

1 hour ago, David Hingtgen said:

Give me silver thighs, waist, and stripe.  I will never accept him having a white bumper and grill etc.    ::insert "Superman's hair doesn't have blue streaks" argument here::

It still boggles me that so many companies do so many versions and repaints, yet still never do that obvious  basic color combo.  

Basically I want the G1 toy colors, but not slavishly G1----blue eyes, not yellow, etc.   Or put another another way----"fix" the toon colors to make sense based on the alt mode.  Chrome/silver/metal not white.  And it makes no sense to have faux-stripes in bot mode when they don't put them on alt-mode... (have silver stripes in both modes so it makes sense----they're drawn on the model sheet yet colored red----another "persistent animation error")

I'm with you: I don't mind if the sculpt echoes the toon, but I prefer the realistic details of the alt mode, as much as possible, translate over to bot mode, i.e., chrome or silver grill, thighs, fuel tanks, waist, and his stripe around the cab.  I agree completely that copying the white b/c it mirrors the animation's poor ability to capture a metallic sheen is ludicrous, especially in an age where we recognize that particular shortfall and understand what it was meant to represent. Moreover, omitting his stripe in cab mode b/c, again, it mirrors the poor quality of the Sunbow animation, is also just ridiculous in my eyes.  I can't understand the people who want the deletion in quality and accuracy willingly to match such a poorly and inconsistently animated cartoon.  In most cases, I prefer Floro Dery's bot interpretations, which in most instances were an improvement over the lackluster G1 toys, although I like the realistic details that the bot modes brought forth in the G1 toys by necessity. Had CG animation been more advanced and affordable in '84 to be used widespread in animated toons, I'm sure those bot modes would have had all that detail, and we wouldn't be having this dilemma of aesthetics. Alas, we're stuck with the old toon, and the debate over realism or slavish toon 'accuracy', an oxymoron if there was one.

 

Anyway, I hope MS plan to paint the first release of LoJV2 with more toy accurate colors, and not toon accurate. I have a PO for it, but if they go full toon with the paint job, I'll probably canx my PO and wait for the eventual metallic or toy accurate recolor. the fig itself looks amazing, and I really want a good looking Prime to stand alongside their Megatron.

In other news: FT Acoustic Wave and their Fenzy on the left, MP Soundwave and Laserbeak on the right. The old MP holds up well, and other than the gappy waist area, I still think I overall prefer it to the FansToys' version. If Takara was to go back and rework that to give the waist the tapered look above the thighs and give him double jointed knees, the rest of the fig wouldn't need much tweaking.  Solid toy that's held up very well.  If I had to do a top 5 MP releases, I think he'd qualify.

 

Unlike Acoustic Wave, which makes subtle improvements over MP Soundwave,  the improvements over Takara's cassettes is remarkable, especially Ravage, which was a huge disappointment after initially seeing what they accomplished with their still awesome Laserbeak. FT improved on all three Decepticon cassettes, but while the improvements are more subtle with Laserbeak, they are quite notable on Frenzy/Rumble, and outright incredible for Ravage, who happens to be my all time fave cassette bot. As a fan of TF cassettes overall, I was smitten at first glance with FT's cassettes, and after initial POs seemed to be sold out nigh everywhere, I finally and gratefully managed to score one. Can't wait to get these guys in hand. I hope FT continue to make the rest of the cassettes at this level. Like Pokeman, gotta catch 'em all.

[mikeszekely]

10 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Give me silver thighs, waist, and stripe.  I will never accept him having a white bumper and grill etc.    ::insert "Superman's hair doesn't have blue streaks" argument here::

Yeah, or making Batman's costume blue because they colored him like this in the comics-

...wait.

Seriously, though, I'm with you 100%.  A lot of cartoon details were colored white because they couldn't really do a metallic sheen with cel-shading in the day, but if you look at the toys we're talking about parts that are very clearly silver, chrome, or bare metal.  Optimus shouldn't have any white on him.  For that matter, neither should Soundwave.  But try telling it to the Sunbow crowd.

8 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

In other news: FT Acoustic Wave and their Fenzy on the left, MP Soundwave and Laserbeak on the right. The old MP holds up well, and other than the gappy waist area, I still think I overall prefer it to the FansToys' version. If Takara was to go back and rework that to give the waist the tapered look above the thighs and give him double jointed knees, the rest of the fig wouldn't need much tweaking.  Solid toy that's held up very well.  If I had to do a top 5 MP releases, I think he'd qualify.

Yeah, MP Soundwave isn't perfect, perhaps a little date, but the improvements on Acoustic Wave failed to justify the $250 price tag, especially when I think the white on Acoustic Wave actually looks worse, especially in alt mode.

8 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Unlike Acoustic Wave, which makes subtle improvements over MP Soundwave,  the improvements over Takara's cassettes is remarkable, especially Ravage, which was a huge disappointment after initially seeing what they accomplished with their still awesome Laserbeak. FT improved on all three Decepticon cassettes, but while the improvements are more subtle with Laserbeak, they are quite notable on Frenzy/Rumble, and outright incredible for Ravage, who happens to be my all time fave cassette bot.

While I had no qualms about passing on Acoustic Wave, I am a little sorry I missed the boat on the tapes.  I mean, I'm pretty happy with the Ocular Max ones in my MP display, but I think I might have actually displayed the FT/RP ones with my WfC stuff.

[M'Kyuun]

Since the FT cassettes should in all likelihood be compatible with both G1 and MP Soundwaves, I really wanted a copy of these guys for their improvements over their G1 and MP predecessors.  They don't really fit in with WfC since they won't fit in ER Soundwave, a legit gripe I've had since the beginning of the line, even though they're ostensibly the proper scale to fit in with the Generations collection. I have both MP and Ocular Max versions on display with my MP Decepticons, but chances are I'll keep MP Ravage and Frenzy in Soundwave's chest, and display the FT versions of them in bot modes. I still can't get over how good FT's Ravage looks.😍

Speaking of Ocular Max, I hope it's not long before they make their Autobot cassettes available for PO. We've been waiting, what, two or three years now since they were first shown, and still no POs.  Hopefully soon.

[mikeszekely]

54 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

Since the FT cassettes should in all likelihood be compatible with both G1 and MP Soundwaves, I really wanted a copy of these guys for their improvements over their G1 and MP predecessors.  They don't really fit in with WfC since they won't fit in ER Soundwave, a legit gripe I've had since the beginning of the line, even though they're ostensibly the proper scale to fit in with the Generations collection. I have both MP and Ocular Max versions on display with my MP Decepticons, but chances are I'll keep MP Ravage and Frenzy in Soundwave's chest, and display the FT versions of them in bot modes. I still can't get over how good FT's Ravage looks.😍

Speaking of Ocular Max, I hope it's not long before they make their Autobot cassettes available for PO. We've been waiting, what, two or three years now since they were first shown, and still no POs.  Hopefully soon.

I mean, the OX cassettes don't fit in MP Soundwave's chest (nor, presumably, Acoustic Wave), and I like them (at least Ravage, Frenzy, and Rumble) for my MP collection because they're bigger in their robot/cat modes.  I don't know if this jives with the official scale chart or not, but to me it always seemed like they mass shifted after they came out of Soundwave's chest (although I never bothered with Volture and Buzzard because I actually was cool with the MP's size for Laserbeak and Buzzsaw).  My desire for the RP/FT cassettes isn't a need for them to fit into Siege/Netflix Soundwave's chests, it's more me wanting robot/cat modes that aren't trash the way the Siege Micromasters are.  I currently have the actual MP versions with the WfC guys, since I have the OX guys with the MPs.

Oh, and it looks like TCP still has preorders for them (although they've sold out of Acoustic Wave himself).  I guess count me in.  Looks like it's just Rumble, Laserbeak, and Ravage, though.  Frenzy's packed in with Acoustic Wave and... is Fans Toys just not doing Buzzsaw?  Poor dude gets no love, since Hasbro couldn't be arsed to do him in Siege, either.

As for the OX Autobot cassettes, Steeljaw was at TFCon.  They're still coming, which I'm glad for.  I really wish they'd do Ratbat, though.  Like, even if it delays the Autobot cassettes longer.  Despite them appearing in the cartoon, and despite me owning all four of them as a kid, I don't have a ton of attachment to the Autobot tapes (at least not until Rewind became part of the main cast of More Than Meets the Eye.  Ratbat, on the other hand, was a major character in the old Marvel comics when I was a kid- like, for a time, he was the leader of the Decepticons, and featured in ridiculous storylines like "The Carwash of Doom" and the storyline that introduced Scraplets to Transformers fiction.

[M'Kyuun]

14 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

I mean, the OX cassettes don't fit in MP Soundwave's chest (nor, presumably, Acoustic Wave), and I like them (at least Ravage, Frenzy, and Rumble) for my MP collection because they're bigger in their robot/cat modes.  I don't know if this jives with the official scale chart or not, but to me it always seemed like they mass shifted after they came out of Soundwave's chest (although I never bothered with Volture and Buzzard because I actually was cool with the MP's size for Laserbeak and Buzzsaw).  My desire for the RP/FT cassettes isn't a need for them to fit into Siege/Netflix Soundwave's chests, it's more me wanting robot/cat modes that aren't trash the way the Siege Micromasters are.  I currently have the actual MP versions with the WfC guys, since I have the OX guys with the MPs.

Oh, and it looks like TCP still has preorders for them (although they've sold out of Acoustic Wave himself).  I guess count me in.  Looks like it's just Rumble, Laserbeak, and Ravage, though.  Frenzy's packed in with Acoustic Wave and... is Fans Toys just not doing Buzzsaw?  Poor dude gets no love, since Hasbro couldn't be arsed to do him in Siege, either.

As for the OX Autobot cassettes, Steeljaw was at TFCon.  They're still coming, which I'm glad for.  I really wish they'd do Ratbat, though.  Like, even if it delays the Autobot cassettes longer.  Despite them appearing in the cartoon, and despite me owning all four of them as a kid, I don't have a ton of attachment to the Autobot tapes (at least not until Rewind became part of the main cast of More Than Meets the Eye.  Ratbat, on the other hand, was a major character in the old Marvel comics when I was a kid- like, for a time, he was the leader of the Decepticons, and featured in ridiculous storylines like "The Carwash of Doom" and the storyline that introduced Scraplets to Transformers fiction.

Despite owning a handful of the G1 toys, I never had any of the official tapes as a kid, except Buzzsaw, who came with Soundwave. I had KOs of Ravage and one of Rumble/Frenzy who was molded in red and white plastic. Nevertheless, my love for those little convertible rectangular wafers was ignited, and has stayed with me all these years. I still don't own any of the Dino cassettes, but I keep hoping for decent official ones (likely won't happen), or for good to great 3P, which are far more likely.  I've passed on the KFC offerings due to questionable quality, but I keep hoping that Ocular Max will do them, or FT in their current line, which would probably be optimal given their higher than average quality and engineering at the original scale. Just the same, I'm quite enamored of OM's  takes on Ravage and Rumble (didn't get Frenzy). their Condors are ok, a little disappointing after handling Jaguar. However, I'm hoping they'll continue to pump out cassette bots in the full size cassette scale until they've covered the whole roster. I'm in agreement that they scale better with MP, and that there was a bit of mass shifting involved with them, like most of the TFs in the old toon.

At least we got Ratbat in Siege, but I hear you so far as those cassettes leaving a bit to be desired. Since Hasbro opted to go for a smaller scale with their cassettes, I hope Dr. Wu, whose Beastbox/Squalktalk set I own and really like, will eventually get around to doing all of the cassettes in that scale with much improved engineering and better looking bot modes. 

[lechuck]

On 11/6/2021 at 4:38 PM, David Hingtgen said:

Give me silver thighs, waist, and stripe.  I will never accept him having a white bumper and grill etc.    ::insert "Superman's hair doesn't have blue streaks" argument here::

It still boggles me that so many companies do so many versions and repaints, yet still never do that obvious  basic color combo.  

Basically I want the G1 toy colors, but not slavishly G1----blue eyes, not yellow, etc.   Or put another another way----"fix" the toon colors to make sense based on the alt mode.  Chrome/silver/metal not white.  And it makes no sense to have faux-stripes in bot mode when they don't put them on alt-mode... (have silver stripes in both modes so it makes sense----they're drawn on the model sheet yet colored red----another "persistent animation error")

Why complain? There is a KO version of MP-44 with silver legs right here -> https://showzstore.com/4th-party-masterpiece-mp-44-silver-leg-version_p2801.html

On 11/6/2021 at 7:22 PM, M'Kyuun said:

I'm with you: I don't mind if the sculpt echoes the toon, but I prefer the realistic details of the alt mode, as much as possible, translate over to bot mode, i.e., chrome or silver grill, thighs, fuel tanks, waist, and his stripe around the cab.  I agree completely that copying the white b/c it mirrors the animation's poor ability to capture a metallic sheen is ludicrous, especially in an age where we recognize that particular shortfall and understand what it was meant to represent. Moreover, omitting his stripe in cab mode b/c, again, it mirrors the poor quality of the Sunbow animation, is also just ridiculous in my eyes.  I can't understand the people who want the deletion in quality and accuracy willingly to match such a poorly and inconsistently animated cartoon.  In most cases, I prefer Floro Dery's bot interpretations, which in most instances were an improvement over the lackluster G1 toys, although I like the realistic details that the bot modes brought forth in the G1 toys by necessity. Had CG animation been more advanced and affordable in '84 to be used widespread in animated toons, I'm sure those bot modes would have had all that detail, and we wouldn't be having this dilemma of aesthetics. Alas, we're stuck with the old toon, and the debate over realism or slavish toon 'accuracy', an oxymoron if there was one.

Perhaps you are not understanding those fans because you are projecting your own preferences and priorities on to them when that is not what is driving them to appreciate and collect certain Transformers. Not everyone is seeking to make the Transformers IP the next piloted real robot franchise or wanting to hold up the Diaclone heritage ad nauseam. Robot internals and alt-mode parts splayed everywhere or following real world accuracy might not be defining quality aspects for them, on the contrary it might lessen the quality for them - especially when the toy is trying to follow a specific media depiction. And this argument isn't just a Sunbow vs. G1 toy realism thing any more. look at the situation Legacy Bulkhead and Arcee. You can't tell me that TF Prime's animation was full of errors, so we are better off with WFC-fied versions of those characters.

18 hours ago, mikeszekely said:

Seriously, though, I'm with you 100%.  A lot of cartoon details were colored white because they couldn't really do a metallic sheen with cel-shading in the day, but if you look at the toys we're talking about parts that are very clearly silver, chrome, or bare metal.  Optimus shouldn't have any white on him.  For that matter, neither should Soundwave.  But try telling it to the Sunbow crowd.

Tell the "Sunbow crowd" what exactly - what are we faulting them on? They certainly don't need to be schooled on what their preferences should be. But if we are going for delineation and putting up walls between fans, then perhaps it's the "Sunbow haters" and "hybrid/realism apostles" that need to take as step back and reflect a bit. Just because some fans prefer white or other primary colours on their Transformers, doesn't mean that their ignorant to the fact that things should/could have been chrome or silver, but maybe it's just not what they are seeking or placing priorities on. That doesn't make them less right or put them below those that prefer realism. And if the robot toy is already emulating the design style from certain media as closely as possible, then why stop at the colours? Red, white and blue are more than just colours Optimus Prime had in the cartoon, it's also become associative to his character and traits, his actions and story lines he had. Some fans would like to have all of that cartoon stuff captured and evoked by a robot toy, for other fans it might be realism from the OG toys or other attributes that fulfils their quest. None of these groups are wrong and they certainly don't need to be lectured by each other.

And if arguing for realism - I'm not sure Soundwave's colour palette is the real issue here, being a small tape deck that transforms into a giant robot and all...

[mikeszekely]

5 hours ago, lechuck said:

Tell the "Sunbow crowd" what exactly - what are we faulting them on?

Tell them pretty much what I already said- that Optimus Prime's pelvis and thighs are not white, it's merely an artifact of '80s cel-shading.  I don't believe that's an opinion, I believe that's a fact, and I'll note that the fuel tanks on Prime's legs, the smokestacks on his shoulders, and his tummy grill are also colored white in the animation but I've yet to see anyone suggest that TE-01 or MP-44 should have had theirs white instead of silver/chrome to match their pelvis and thighs.  But I'm guessing that after reading that your response is something along the lines of, "they're white to me/I still prefer white" or perhaps even something like "that's your opinion, it's not a fact at all," right?  In other words, you have your preference and nothing I or David says, regardless of the logic we use, will change that preference.  Hence, "try telling it to the Sunbow crowd"- it's not meant as a statement of value judgement (and I'm sorry it came off that way), it's a summation of the futility of trying to tell someone that a preference is "wrong."  At the end of the day, you don't have to have a reason, you just like what you like.

6 hours ago, lechuck said:

Just because some fans prefer white or other primary colours on their Transformers, doesn't mean that their ignorant to the fact that things should/could have been chrome or silver, but maybe it's just not what they are seeking or placing priorities on. That doesn't make them less right or put them below those that prefer realism.

I really don't disagree with any of this.  While in theory we had access to the same media (cartoon, toys, ads, comic books, etc) our perceptions of that media and what elements had the most meaningful impact on us is a deeply personal thing.  Again, to me saying that Prime's pelvis and thighs should be silver/chrome because white was the best the animators could do to reflect the metal and chrome on the toy is a statement of fact, but if white is more evocative of your memory of the cartoon then that's going to be your preference.  What's more, there doesn't need to be any consensus; you'll get whatever figures you think best represent the characters you want in your collection regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, and vice versa.

6 hours ago, lechuck said:

But if we are going for delineation and putting up walls between fans, then perhaps it's the "Sunbow haters" and "hybrid/realism apostles" that need to take as step back and reflect a bit.

I think this is the only thing I have to take issue with.  I don't think the fandom is putting up walls, I think the simple fact is that there has been two approaches used, especially in the Masterpiece line; the older Hasui style of combining features of the toys and cartoon with realistic alt modes, and the newer style of extreme cartoon accuracy.  The delineation occurs naturally when some people prefer the older style and some prefer the newer.  My question to you is what, exactly, you would have those that think too much Sunbow is a bad thing reflect on?  I think it's human nature to get defensive whenever someone else expresses views that are contrary to your own, but where you're hearing, "your preference is wrong," I'm hearing the complaints of the frustrated.  A KO of MP-44 is an option, but where's Takara with the toy-colored MP-44+?  The fact is, if you're in the Sunbow crowd Takara is catering to you (and Newage, and while companies like Fans Toys, X-Transbots, DX9, MMC, and Magic Square aren't there to the level of Takara and Newage that's definitely the direction they're moving in).  What you're hearing isn't "what you want is wrong," it's "I'm envious that you get what you want and I'm worried that I won't."

[technoblue]

The Transformers fandom is unique. Where fans of other toy lines can usually depend on show accuracy (see Macross and Gundam), Transformers fans have a duality with G1. When I take a step back to look at the original G1 toy release, the Diaclone heritage is evident. They had real-world details in alt mode, and blocky bot modes, but the G1 series/movie used artistic license to animate, characterize, and sell the toys on screen. Yeah, if I'm being honest, real-world design and toon accuracy are both representative of what G1 is and always has been. So there is no wrong answer here. No matter our stripes, we are all fans of Transformers. As @mikeszekely wrote, it's what we lean into---our personal nostalgia---then that drives our impressions for G1.

At this point, it's like arguing over someone's interpretation of a drawing or a painting. I would suggest that it's important to remember that people do see things differently and that can be a bridge, as well as being informative and interesting too.  

Myself, I do wish Takara would release more G1 Toy MPs but I am not sure the price would be right anymore. Barring that, Newage is thankfully consistent in doing their own G1 toy releases at Legends scale, so I've been picking up those when and where I can.

[Convectuoso]

MFT's Springer V1 vs V2 comparison:

[mikeszekely]

The first MFT was a KO of one of DX9’s early Legends, wasn't it? The new one definitely looks a lot better.

[M'Kyuun]

On 11/7/2021 at 1:55 PM, lechuck said:

Perhaps you are not understanding those fans because you are projecting your own preferences and priorities on to them when that is not what is driving them to appreciate and collect certain Transformers. Not everyone is seeking to make the Transformers IP the next piloted real robot franchise or wanting to hold up the Diaclone heritage ad nauseam. Robot internals and alt-mode parts splayed everywhere or following real world accuracy might not be defining quality aspects for them, on the contrary it might lessen the quality for them - especially when the toy is trying to follow a specific media depiction. 

Different strokes. You're correct; my preference is absolutely for realistic details to cross over b/c that's a mechanical reality, and as a former aircraft mechanic, those details matter to me. I can go so far as appreciating Dery's stylistic interpretations of the bot modes, as, IMHO, they improved on the G1 toys' bot modes, often significantly.  The color issue is, of course, a matter of personal preference. My own preference is for the toy colors/real vehicle colors. Choosing colors from the animation b/c they're the artifact of the limitations at the time, animation errors, inconsistencies, and simplifications due to the hand drawn nature of the show where the actual colors based on a physical product are known seems odd to me. But, again, different strokes. Nostalgia reaches us all differently, and I can respect that.  However as Mike put so succinctly, Takara's focus on the slavish toon aesthetic is pushing us "hybrid apostles" away, and we are envious of the fans who favor the toon aesthetic, b/c they're getting what they want, but there's no second option, besides third party, who incidentally are all moving towards toon 'accuracy' over realism. Seems petty, but everyone wants what they want, and in the MP case, only one party is being served. The upcoming MP Skids is an exception, and I'm curious if Takara is testing the waters to see how the old more realistic, AKA hybrid, style will fare among consumers. I'm down for a copy, the first G1 MP that's interested me in several years. I'm very curious to see how it does in terms of demand, as it may cause Takara to consider different versions of the same characters in the MP line going forward, or at least more 'hybrid' figs. Guess we'll see. I'm glad Pulse is offering MP figs now, as that'll provide a gauge of demand and profitability outside of Japan.

On 11/7/2021 at 1:55 PM, lechuck said:

 And this argument isn't just a Sunbow vs. G1 toy realism thing any more. look at the situation Legacy Bulkhead and Arcee. You can't tell me that TF Prime's animation was full of errors, so we are better off with WFC-fied versions of those characters.

Personally, I never felt the need for G1 styled interpretations of characters from Prime.  It had its own aesthetic, inspired heavily by Bay's movie designs.  I'm not a big fan of Bayformers, but there was enough stylistic interpretation with the show and toy designs that I came to appreciate them for what they are. That said, this isn't the first time that Has/Tak have taken characters from one line and reinterpreted them to fit another, and ultimately, since one continuity generally borrows from another in this franchise, I'm fine with it. We've gotten a number of great toys from this trend:

Animated Lockdown and Revenge of the Fallen Lockdown

Animated Lugnut and Reveal the Shield Lugnut:

and of course Animated Bulkhead, Prime Bulkhead, Bayformers Hound and Legacy Bulkhead:

I think Legacy Bulkhead has more in common with the Animated version than Prime, and moreso with Bayformers Hound (possibly an interpretation of the Animated design) which is based on a real vehicle. Honestly, I would have left Bayformers Hound out of the comparison, but I cribbed these photos from the net, and you work with what's available. The Legacy truck mode isn't based on a real vehicle per-se, but like most of the G1 alt modes in the WfC and now Legacy lines, they hew close enough to the licensed vehicles to look the part without having to pay licensing fees. Good compromise, IMO. Anyway, the only real issue I have with Legacy Bulkhead is that he has more in common with G1 Inferno in bot mode than his namesake. Not a dealbreaker, and I'll happily accept him into the fold when he finally releases.

That MFT V2 Springer looks great- really nice update to their first go.

[JB0]

If we're still arguing over the right way to make plastic robots, I'm going to say that if it isn't original-toy-accurate, it is wrong. Chrome and smoked plastic and sticker details and bits of car hanging off the robots.

 

 

Exceptions for Ironhide and Ratchet, because... well, obviously. (Seriously, the toy designs could make for interesting headmasters, but they more than any other Diaclone molds were obviously meant to be piloted robots.)

[David Hingtgen]

On 11/7/2021 at 3:55 PM, lechuck said:

Why complain? There is a KO version of MP-44 with silver legs right here -> https://showzstore.com/4th-party-masterpiece-mp-44-silver-leg-version_p2801.html

 

Because it's MP-44, that's why.  The mold that epitomizes "toon accuracy over common sense, aesthetics, and alt-mode". 

An utterly ridiculous transformation, all to still end up with a huge backpack in robot mode and an inaccurate alt mode full of seams.  

Also, it still has "stripes in bot mode yet no stripes in truck mode".  And they're not silver, either.  

[Convectuoso]

These two arrived today:

When I have some spare time I'll take better pictures.

 

[tekering]

So, as someone who collects Transformers as character merchandise, this was an extremely atypical purchase for me:

Toys Alliance Archecore ARC-02, "Frost Light."

Basically, I bought it for the bad-ass vehicle mode.

It has a distinctly Mad Max-vibe to it...

...or rather, it would, if it weren't so clean.

So I spent a couple hours with an airbrush, a sanding sponge, a bottle of panel-lining solution and a Q-Tip...

...and I think the results speak for themselves.

It's actually kind of exciting, having a figure with no established identify within the Transformers franchise.

He could be a good guy, a bad guy, or just a mercenary with no allegiance to any specific faction or ideology.

So now I want to add more similarly-scaled armored vehicles to this new collection I've begun.

What other D-list Transformers (or unique third-party figures) fit this "post-apocalyptic wasteland "aesthetic? 

I'm thinking Hunt for the Decepticons Axor, or Reveal the Shield Lugnut, perhaps... 🤔

[M'Kyuun]

Dude.  That's some great looking weathering. It makes me all the more aware of my absolute lack of talent.

Gotta agree with your sentiment about having an original, non-established character- he can be whatever you want him to be. Too, hat's off to Toys Alliance for creating such a distinctive figure. I'm not really into post-apoc as a genre, but I can appreciate what goes into it in terms of imagination, and this guy represents something different in the world of Transformers. Honestly, for what it is, the vehicle mode looks great, and I love the bot mode as well. Just a cool toy.