Which Side Would You Support?

[Solidus Snake]

I don't know if this has been asked, but I was recently watching Macross Zero and, apart from the fact that hero (Shin) is part of of the UN forces, I've always wondered: which side would I support if there was a similar war with a similar cause (giant spaceship comes crashing down to Earth). Would you have supported the UN forces or the Anti-UN forces?

[Keith]

I don't know if this has been asked, but I was recently watching Macross Zero and, apart from the fact that hero (Shin) is part of of the UN forces, I've always wondered: which side would I support if there was a similar war with a similar cause (giant spaceship comes crashing down to Earth). Would you have supported the UN forces or the Anti-UN forces?

Why would you support the Anti-UN? Only terrorists support the Anit-UN!

[Benson13]

What's their political platform?

[Keith]

What's their political platform?

[VF-15 Banshee]

Um.... the UN? First of all, they have Valks. Secondly, I don't recall the UN fire-bombing an island full of peaceful villagers or killing the crew of a Mars research base.

[Jasonc]

I've always wondered what countries would side with the Anit-UN. You'd think that it'd be the countries who in this day and age, aren't part of it. There'd probably be allies of those, that would jump ship, too. So, whatever political beliefs and practices those seperate countries have now, they'd probably take with them after the SDF-1 crash. They'd probably be even more bitter, at the fact that alent tech, or over-technology won't be shared with them, giving them a severe disadvantage in country disputes. That seems likely why they would've started the conflict.

[David Hingtgen]

The Anti-UN has cooler stuff/tech though.

[Solidus Snake]

Um.... the UN? First of all, they have Valks. Secondly, I don't recall the UN fire-bombing an island full of peaceful villagers or killing the crew of a Mars research base.

Didn't the UN also possibly do some bad stuff? Nora seems really hateful towards them.

[Jasonc]

Didn't the UN also possibly do some bad stuff? Nora seems really hateful towards them.

It's probably similar to what goes on now. While the story of her family's circumstances are never explained, she definitely generalized the U.N. forces as all similar to the few bad apples that scarred her.

[Zor Primus]

Anti-UN would it include a still alive Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc? These political boundaries changed considerably in the time of SDF:M and Zero...I would think NATO vs Warsaw Pact if it was still the 80's.

Today? It’s a crap shoot...USA, Britain, Germany, and most of Western Europe would probably be UN, along with Mexico, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Panama, Peru, and the rest of the former British and Spanish Caribbean islands would join too. Venezuela, Bolivia, Argentina, Nicaragua, Cuba would not.

I’d bet Russia, China, N Korea, the rest of Eastern Europe would make the bulk of the Anti-UN.

The Middle East is another enigma, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq, Israel would be in…Iran, Siria, Palestine no.

Problem with this question is that it’s so dynamic on the politics of the age. In the 80’s it was USA vs USSR, now? Most of the Anti-UN countries I mentioned all share the same dislike for mostly American policy that makes us look “Imperialistic”. Now please let’s not turn this into a political debate. I think I listed countries specific enough to be considered common knowledge with their beliefs.

Granted this list could change easily either way, no one knows how any country would react if an alien spaceship crashed on Earth and its secrets revealed not only over-technology but also the proof that we are not alone and we could face danger from the stars.

Back to the original question though…I would support a unified world government. With the idealistic and romantic view that we as a species can grow up beyond our petty differences and can achieve greatness when faced with an insurmountable challenge.

[VF-15 Banshee]

Didn't the UN also possibly do some bad stuff? Nora seems really hateful towards them.

Nobody's perfect. Wasn't there also the implication that Anti-UN forces did the same thing to Shinn's family? I never figured out why Shinn never said something like, "We're the same," to Nora.

Also, according to the Compendium, the UN forces were initially mainly American, British, French, Japanese, Soviet and German.

Edited April 24, 2012 by VF-15 Banshee

[azrael]

Shinn's family never died. He was more or less "drafted" into service.

The issue of Unification/Anti-Unification probably has to do with international politics, nationalism, money and stuff we probably shouldn't get into. There are a lot of real-life examples of what happens when people unify and how it works over time.

[Ghost Train]

If this would be retconned in contemporary times, non-state actors would play a big role too!

The Order:

- The 1%

- Fox Broadcasting Company

- Apple

- Walmart

- Facebook

- Justin Bieber

- Bioware (reluctantly)

They are the maintainers of the status quo, relying on overwhelming force to crush their enemies! They field giant heavily armored static mobile suits.

The Anti-Order:

- Google

- The Occupiers

- The Sea Shepards (w00t we got a navy with heli air support! )

- Ben & Jerry Ice Cream

- Lady Gaga

- Harmony Gold

They are the underdog, relying on stealth, hit & run tactics to overcome their foes. They prefer transformable mecha due to their versatility and to compensate for their lack of resources.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Ghost Train

[Bri]

Except for Taiwan and the Vatican only some disputed territories are not part of the UN. It's possible the anti-un is not made up by nations, but by disgruntled factions/corporations within countries. They also have access to technology derived from the ASS-1.

Since it's an alternate history and Kawamori is a Gundam fan, my guess would be something like Anaheim selling arms to all factions.

[reeoyuy]

Kawamori is a Gundam fan

Psst, be careful. Last time someone mentioned that, Graham steps in and telling people to stop mentioning such blasphemy as if being a Gundam fan is an ultimate sin .

[Ghost Train]

This is the ultimate heresy that history has tried to cover up then ...

[Gian]

I'd join the Anti-UN forces just because of Nora Polyansky

Edited April 25, 2012 by Gian

[VF5SS]

Oddly enough the GP01 is the basis for his later hero mecha like the VF-19 series and his Armored Core stuff.

[eugimon]

the UN. The anti-UN just strikes me as a bunch of head-in-the-sand anarchists .

[reeoyuy]

This is the ultimate heresy that history has tried to cover up then ...

Graham's argument was something like "Just because I hired to do my job, doesn't mean that I'm a fan of it"

Back to the topic, the split between UN and Anti-UN would make more sense if Zero universe is alternate of ours. Like how in Full Metal Panic!, Soviet and KGB still exists up to present day. But in Macross, history deviates only after ASS-1 crashed. Unless there are official publication about geopolitics in earth sphere before the events of Zero.

[sketchley]

Wow. (in a disappointed way)

After telling ppl about it, AND having a discussion with TehPW about it, most people still aren't aware of the recently translated information on the subject.

MW pages w/ discussion: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=28072&view=findpost&p=963923

ToC of translations: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/portal/Chronicles.htm

Going back to the OP: I'd pick the Anti Unification Alliance (who's this Anti UN that everyone's talking about?)

Why? Cuz they're the majority that are getting shafted by the haves, who have taken control of the investigation and development of Over Technology and are suppressing everyone else to their world outlook. Ultimately the differences between the two sides aren't that great. But the big plus for the AUA is that they're standing up for the rights of the majority that the haves are trying to silence! (AKA: sticking it to the man)

[Solidus Snake]

Wow. (in a disappointed way)

After telling ppl about it, AND having a discussion with TehPW about it, most people still aren't aware of the recently translated information on the subject.

MW pages w/ discussion: http://www.macrosswo...ndpost&p=963923

ToC of translations: http://www.macrossro.../Chronicles.htm

Thanks for this.

[Keith]

Uh huh, you could feel sorry for the have nots, until you account for brutal acts such as killing the Mars Base members on their way back to Earth. Fact is there's a reason why the technology wasn't shared with them.

[sketchley]

... and that reason is...?

Because they didn't have power (influence, money, whatever) pre-ASS-1 crash, and were terrorized and had brutal acts performed against them by the haves leading up to the ASS-1's crash landing? (Ie: Foxconn) Or the brutal acts committed by the Unified Forces against the non-supporters (never mind their political stripes), such as those that caused Nora's nasty chest scar?

Suffice to say - it was a war. A civil war covering the Earth that lasted close to 10 years. BOTH sides did nasty things to each other (E.g.: Global nuking the hijackers that destroyed the Mars base return fleet... with a reaction warhead! Talk about overkill).

[Gubaba]

... and that reason is...?

Because they didn't have power (influence, money, whatever) pre-ASS-1 crash, and were terrorized and had brutal acts performed against them by the haves leading up to the ASS-1's crash landing? (Ie: Foxconn) Or the brutal acts committed by the Unified Forces against the non-supporters (never mind their political stripes), such as those that caused Nora's nasty chest scar?

Suffice to say - it was a war. A civil war covering the Earth that lasted close to 10 years. BOTH sides did nasty things to each other (E.g.: Global nuking the hijackers that destroyed the Mars base return fleet... with a reaction warhead! Talk about overkill).

The Anti-Unification Forces also assassinated Prime Minister Harlan J. Niven (who has the GREATEST NAME EVER), blew up one of the Grand Cannons, and caused guerilla warfare to break out all over the U.S.

Did the UN create as much havoc...?

[sketchley]

Agreed. GREATEST NAME EVER.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Was that guerrilla warfare against a legitimate government or a fight for freedom against repression?

Suffice to say, the various portrayals of the Unification War do a good job at vilifying the Anti Unification Alliance - probably because they're the enemy - and don't do a very good job at showing the wartime atrocities that the Unified Government/Unified Forces has done back. Ah well, history is written by the victors as they say...

EDIT: go off and do something else, and this topic still percolates... I've been wrestling for a term to best describe the Unification War. And try as I might, a civil war on a global scale is the best way to describe (yeah, I know. Shades of global civil war. >.< ). Nevertheless, this talk of guerrilla warfare reminds me of the point that it's not a war of country vs country or nation vs nation, but nations at war with themselves. Elements of each nation joined together forming the Unified Government. Their opposition in each country joined to form the Anti-Unification Alliance.

So, did the Anti-Unification Alliance cause the guerrilla warfare? Yes and no. In the sense that the people who came to form the AUA did it, then yes. In the sense that the AUA order it to happen, then no. It goes back to the haves (have power) and those that don't being the two sides of the war. In the case of the US, states with power (= the haves) become the UG. States without power (= have nots) cause the guerrilla warfare and eventually merge/form the AUA.

It's rather terribly complicated, and the more I think about it, the more I think I'll get a headache thinking about it. Which is why I think the creators have provided only the vaguest description of the Unification War...

Edited April 25, 2012 by sketchley

[Gubaba]

Agreed. GREATEST NAME EVER.

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Was that guerrilla warfare against a legitimate government or a fight for freedom against repression?

Suffice to say, the various portrayals of the Unification War do a good job at vilifying the Anti Unification Alliance - probably because they're the enemy - and don't do a very good job at showing the wartime atrocities that the Unified Government/Unified Forces has done back. Ah well, history is written by the victors as they say...

EDIT: go off and do something else, and this topic still percolates... I've been wrestling for a term to best describe the Unification War. And try as I might, a civil war on a global scale is the best way to describe (yeah, I know. Shades of global civil war. >.< ). Nevertheless, this talk of guerrilla warfare reminds me of the point that it's not a war of country vs country or nation vs nation, but nations at war with themselves. Elements of each nation joined together forming the Unified Government. Their opposition in each country joined to form the Anti-Unification Alliance.

So, did the Anti-Unification Alliance cause the guerrilla warfare? Yes and no. In the sense that the people who came to form the AUA did it, then yes. In the sense that the AUA order it to happen, then no. It goes back to the haves (have power) and those that don't being the two sides of the war. In the case of the US, states with power (= the haves) become the UG. States without power (= have nots) cause the guerrilla warfare and eventually merge/form the AUA.

It's rather terribly complicated, and the more I think about it, the more I think I'll get a headache thinking about it. Which is why I think the creators have provided only the vaguest description of the Unification War...

No, I getcha that the Anti-Unification League may have had good reasons for doing what they did...but hey, in real life, I believe that the end NEVER justifies the means, for the sole reason that when the means are employed, the end is still unknown (and unknowable).

The Anti-Unification League that launched the attack on the Mars Base crew, for example, might have been surprised by the way the attack ended.

[pfunk]

I'd be a govt. brat. Yeah they have some bad points, but the good outweighs them. I'd rather pick a winner then go down basically a martyr in unrealistic ideals

[sketchley]

I'd be a govt. brat. Yeah they have some bad points, but the good outweighs them. I'd rather pick a winner then go down basically a martyr in unrealistic ideals

See, this is where we hit a wall. As Gubaba said, the end is still unknown. As the war was a stalemate for quite a few years, there's plenty of time to be wishy-washy about which side will be the winner.

Of course, there's always the 3rd option: join neither side. Of course, you'd still get run over by one side or the other...

[Gubaba]

See, this is where we hit a wall. As Gubaba said, the end is still unknown. As the war was a stalemate for quite a few years, there's plenty of time to be wishy-washy about which side will be the winner.

Of course, there's always the 3rd option: join neither side. Of course, you'd still get run over by one side or the other...

Enh...I don't see a "neither side" here...either you're for unification, or against it. What's the middle ground?

[Freiflug88]

Neither, both sides were probably funded by evil off-shore bankers.

So personally I would just bunker down into hiding until December 21,2012... then go into space with the returning Mayan space gods

[Keith]

Neither, both sides were probably funded by evil off-shore bankers.

So personally I would just bunker down into hiding until December 21,2012... then go into space with the returning Mayan space gods

Wrong answer, that just leads to dying under the Zentradi bombarrdment. The right answer is move to South Ataria, get a job supporting or assiting in the rebuild, and hope you don't die during one of the various Zentradi attacks (hint, always be near a shelter, never be near a transformatrion point!)

[Freiflug88]

Orbital Zentradi bombardments aren't a problem for me. My tinfoil hat deflects all forms of alien beam weapons.

[Roy Focker]

Well the UN Duh!

This has nothing to do with my political views. It is about surviving the war with the Zentradi. I want to make sure I'm on the Macross.

[EXO]

Well the UN Duh!

This has nothing to do with my political views. It is about surviving the war with the Zentradi. I want to make sure I'm on the Macross.

Oh don't worry. You make it to the Macross. You just never get to eat that one last pineapple cake.