Macross isnt what it used to be..

[VF5SS]

I will hear no ill will spoken of Aquarion Evol

http://twitpic.com/989m1g

for it has given us this

glorious

[Bri]

One issue that annoys me to no end however is the claim that all modern anime is otaku pandering moe bait. Similarly, I’ve heard friends in the US complain that all modern anime is nothing but loli pandering and that Japan hasn’t made a good series since Cowboy Bebop.

Even among that so called otaku pandering moe bait are some excellent shows: Bakemonogatari, Anohana, Haruhi, Aria etc. Too often those get equaled with low brow ecchi comedies.

[azrael]

...If there’s nothing in this list that appeals to you then I think it’s only reasonable to say that it’s not anime that has changed, it’s you.

Didn't we say this already?

[Vifam7]

I can understand the feeling that anime has changed from what was shown in 1980s to what is shown today. But it is hard to exactly quantify what has changed. Loli characters, sex, violence, giant robots etc. - all of these elements were there back then and are still here today. Over time, things like society, people, ideals, etc change. Our own thoughts and experiences change too. And yeah, nostalgia plays a part too. So maybe it's the times or maybe it's just you, or both.

[Jasonc]

Circling the toilet, round and round we go. I think the topic is flushed.

[Keith]

Circling the toilet, round and round we go. I think the topic is flushed.

Exactly. This is like complaining the new BSG panders too much to modern standards, and isn't pure sci-fi cheese like the original series, completely ignoring the fact that it kicks the original's ass up & down the block.

[Pterobat]

You have yet to plunge the depths of moe.

I'll just keep watching from a very safe distance. Ranka still unnerves me a bit, though.

Honestly I don't think we can leave out nostalgia entirely as in my experience, many old school fans are rather willfully ignorant of the kind of things that were commonplace even during the golden era of the 1980's.

Most arguments depend to some degree on ignoring the very obvious biases, though....nostalgia being a factor could be spoken about, but it might weaken the premises on either side.

I guess my major problem is using, "Shut up, you're just being nostalgic" as a go-to response for any complaint about a media franchise's current state. It might be true to some degree, and nobody really has to respect anybody else, but such a rebuttal gets old fast.

[VF5SS]

Perhaps I may be projecting shared displeasure with Tochiro's arch-nemesis on Twitter regarding the nostalgia thing :v

Cuz all the whining about Yamato 2199 and the like makes me wonder if people remember how it was back then

back"]http://www.youtube.c...efTWBwTahw

Edited April 12, 2012 by VF5SS

[Marzan]

I think Tochiro nailed it with his post. Yes anime is different than it was back when SDFM came out, but there's a bucketload of really good shows out there that's come out in the last decade or so. And that includes Macross Frontier in my book.

I think that the Macross tent is big enough for both kinds of fans though.

[Mommar]

"Updates to classic franchises? Fist of the North Star got 3 movies, 2 OVAs and a tv series about Raoh. City Hunter got a direct sequel (Angel Heart) as did Captain Harlock (Endless Odessey) and Cobra (2 OVA’s and one TV series). Not to mention the Golgo 13 tv series or the terrific Cyborg 009-1 spin-off series. Votoms also got at least 2 OVA’s and Yamato actually got a fully-fledged sequel with Yamato Ressurection. Evangelion also got the first 2 rebuild movies. Oh and Towards the Terra received an excellent update in the form of a new TV series that outdoes (imo) the old theatrical version."

So what you're saying is that Macross should get a remake?

[Shaorin]

Even among that so called otaku pandering moe bait are some excellent shows: Bakemonogatari, Anohana, Haruhi, Aria etc. Too often those get equaled with low brow ecchi comedies.

indeed, Haruhi alone has contributed many great things to this old-school fan's fandom, most notably, ♥Her♥

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll310/shaorin-chan/My%20Little%20Mikuru/MikuruWeddingWishes2-23-121.jpg

Edited April 12, 2012 by Shaorin

[VF5SS]

Er uh

yeah about that

[Shaorin]

Er uh

yeah about that

"Moe" isn't COMPLETELY without merit, just saying.

OF COURSE, just as with most anything else in this world, Beauty IS INDEED in the subjective eye of the beholder,

and, of course, one DOES INDEED have to wade through A LOT of crap to find every gem or three out there...

Edited April 12, 2012 by Shaorin

[Keith]

I think he mean's you're not helping the argument by posting picture's of your MIkuru doll ina wedding dress...

[Shaorin]

I think he mean's you're not helping the argument by posting picture's of your MIkuru doll ina wedding dress...

no, i suppose not.

still, there ARE some beautiful things to be found out there in the Anime world of recent years,

once you look beyond all that soulless pandering, anyway...

[nhyone]

I can understand the feeling that anime has changed from what was shown in 1980s to what is shown today. But it is hard to exactly quantify what has changed. Loli characters, sex, violence, giant robots etc. - all of these elements were there back then and are still here today. Over time, things like society, people, ideals, etc change. Our own thoughts and experiences change too. And yeah, nostalgia plays a part too. So maybe it's the times or maybe it's just you, or both.

I don't think it can be entirely attributed to changes in our taste.

Try this: how many shows that you like are from the 80s? 90s? Early 2000, mid-2000 and late 2000?

For me, I find more instances of Lolicon in the late 2000 anime, and they just don't appeal to me.

[Shaorin]

I don't think it can be entirely attributed to changes in our taste.

Try this: how many shows that you like are from the 80s? 90s? Early 2000, mid-2000 and late 2000?

For me, I find more instances of Lolicon in the late 2000 anime, and they just don't appeal to me.

i have developed that very same impression myself.

admittedly, SOME Loli out there IS quite adorable and appealing, at least in the basic sense, IMHO.

regardless, as far as myself is concerned,

i'd far prefer to keep my Otaku Moe Musume love squarely focused on someone like my Angel "Miku-chan"

(NO, i DO NOT in any way mean "Miku Hatsune" either. do not even begin to think that)

- which, while, at a very sweet, AND very minor 17 years of age, IS nonetheless RIGHT on the cusp of legal adulthood,

and is also clearly the kind of delicate little lady that will obviously be holding her "Moe-Moe" Sweetie looks well into it.

indeed, i HAVE INDEED heard of, and seen REAL Asian women whom share these exact traits,

and that is what makes a woman like Mikuru Asahina so "Believable" to me,

despite all of the personal elements she possesses that most out there

have long dismissed away as empty and base "Moe" pandering...

in sum, to me, Miss Mikuru is no lesser worthy a fictional chara or object to adore and/or believe in, than, say,

Captain James T. Kirk and the FEDERATION STARSHIP U.S.S. EXCELSIOR... (both of which, i admire/believe in very greatly indeed)

Edited April 14, 2012 by Shaorin

[Jasonc]

I don't think it can be entirely attributed to changes in our taste.

Try this: how many shows that you like are from the 80s? 90s? Early 2000, mid-2000 and late 2000?

For me, I find more instances of Lolicon in the late 2000 anime, and they just don't appeal to me.

To answer your question, I find the number of shows that I like average out about the same in all those timeframes. I think another thing that hasn't been factored in, is the fact that the further back the list goes, the more difficult it is to criticize the shows with the same fresh pair of eyes that we do with new ones. Also, there were plenty of shows in the 80s and 90s that had the same gratuitous fan service stuff, but many of them have simply been lost in old media, or were never popular enough to make it outside Japan. Anime simply didn't have the gravity that it did over the last decade, and that is a big reason for that. I think a lot more of our tastes changing is a factor that you think, or want to give credence to. Our thinking is constantly changing, even if on a very minor scale. To deny that it hasn't changed that much is just denying the truth. Sure, core values, ethics, morals, etc. may still be intact, but I know for myself, there was a time when I found myself thinking the same that many older fans think. I had a hard time watching new anime, as I didn't like the CG, the character design, the story, etc. I had to simply realize that not only had my tastes changed a little, but so did the industry. It's kind of a double divide. The sooner I was able to come to terms with that, and focus on seeing these newer shows without the same "goggles" I saw anime with over 20 years ago, the sooner I realized that while anime in general maybe slightly different, it's not as different as many make it out to be. There's a lot of good stuff out there, we all know that, but if you don't see them, or experience them, it's just words. I watch tons of anime, lots of different genres, lots of different styles, and there's more out there that's great to choose from, than there probably ever was. While this is mostly related to anime in general, you can shrink it down to Macross specific. It's why I agree with the sentiment that it's we who have changed more than Macross.

[Renato]

Ooooh, that's why Zero had Sara running around naked, jokes about fertility sticks, the third member of the love triangle being a busty 11 year old, and popular gag of the day "double finger butt poke." Nice try, but no. Zero was just as indicative of trying to appeal to younger demographics as the other seies you complain about. Nice try though.

But the older crowd likes that stuff, too. I don't see how Zero was "just as indicative" of appealing to younger people as Frontier. There was no pop song that the teens could go and sing at karaoke, there was not much in the way of cosplay options, there was no bishounen. It was pure, undiluted military porn -- that wasn't "hot" in 2002-2004, and it isn't "hot" now: you have to go back to 1982 for that. Kids today love Brera, Alto, Ranka, etc.; old men love Focker.

The 80's would have never given us a shoen fighting anime about baking bread now would it?

Yakitate JaPAN? You made me go back and watch that again now, argh

[Renato]

Why do so many people cite Wikipedia as 100% fact, when it's written by unauthorized people? Just because you quote Wikipedia doesn't mean that your argument is 100% all true. You might as well say that you're right because your neighbor said it was right. Wikipedia has been proven wrong many a time.

To be fair, he also quoted Great Mechanics, and for the most part those guys know what they're talking about. And all you have to do is watch episode 1 and 2 of Dragonar and it's pretty obvious that conceptually it is a re-imagining of Gundam in everything but name. But that's neither here nor there, really. This thread is essentially about nostalgia and nothing else.

Macross isn't what it used to be, because Macross was ALWAYS a product of its time. If the contextual anime industry has changed over the years, then any new Macross series will reflect that. It's not so hard, guys -- you can't go back in time!

[VF5SS]

you can't go back in time!

[Gubaba]

[Reïvaj]

That isn't what it used to be!

[Vifam7]

Macross history

Above question: Whose singing voice would be most effective as an anti-Vajra weapon?

[nanoplasm]

Minmay's shower scene was there for character development. It shows Hikaru is (maybe a little reluctantly) not the type to take advantage of an attractive girl in a vulnerable situation (unlike Roy, who will probably be all over Minmay if he was in Hikaru's shoe). Also most viewers can relate to the behavior of the Minmay and Hikaru; there is an obvious attraction with each other (especially when stranded in a deserted area of the ship), but not enough attraction to start washing each other's back at the first opportunity.

The pool scenes (where Sheryl flung her stuff) from F were also for character development, but the only thing they've achieved is help the viewer to establish who is the bigger perv in the series (and that Alto is probably gay).

Regarding the Roy and Michael comparison...

Roy is a drunken lecherous war vet, but he probably became this way due to something that happened in the past, was it the war? (later Zero showed us what he had went through prior to SDF:M).

Michael is a hopeless womanizer, just because his childhood playmate has a loli microne condition? (or was it because his guardian/sister was falsely accused?)

I can sympathize with Roy's condition, but not with Michael...

Lastly, steamed tuna buns that look like oppai (appeared both in the TV show and the movie), nuf said. (or is that justifiable as another Easter egg?)

But I have no complains when it comes to the songs and Valkyrie porn in Frontier (I didn't say mecha porn, because that would include the surfing capital ship).

Edited April 19, 2012 by nanoplasm

[raptormesh]

Nano you've basically nailed what I thought as well.

[Gubaba]

[VF5SS]

Hell yeah VF-X opening

Anyways I'm not really sure any nudity in a robot show is fully justifiable

I was looking through my copy of Art of Zeta Gundam and thought about how many of these books must be dog eared just because they threw in Four's bath scene in the book's dedicated Four section

[Gubaba]

Hell yeah VF-X opening

Anyways I'm not really sure any nudity in a robot show is fully justifiable

I was looking through my copy of Art of Zeta Gundam and thought about how many of these books must be dog eared just because they threw in Four's bath scene in the book's dedicated Four section

Four, though, is HAWT.

[VF5SS]

Must be the purple lipstick and fashionable 80s pancho. If only Ranka wore purple lipstick.

Man this book also has Lila's shower scene and four pages for Camille including his shower scene.

Everyone in robot anime is always taking a shower because they're so hot.

[Keith]

Sorry, but no. Roy is shown to be a womanizing rookie, he's just that way. As for Michel, you conveniently forgot the part about his sister going batshit crazy and killing her cheating boyfriend. Things like that make people question fidelity in general.

As for nudity in anime, I do have to wonder if:

1: There aren't a bunch of prudes & women hiding in these forums.

2: Why anyone can find depictions of war/killing ok, but sex not ok.

[VF5SS]

To be honest, gratuitous nudity is not needed in high quantities and can negatively impact the perception of a show. However, Macross is part of a more juvenile subset that has walked the line like Johnny Cash for a long time.

The sex humor in Macross can be irksome but it has yet to go overboard in my opinion.

Other than Sheryl panty chase but hey Macross survived much worse :x

[Keith]

To be honest, gratuitous nudity is not needed in high quantities and can negatively impact the perception of a show. However, Macross is part of a more juvenile subset that has walked the line like Johnny Cash for a long time.

The sex humor in Macross can be irksome but it has yet to go overboard in my opinion.

Other than Sheryl panty chase but hey Macross survived much worse :x

Uh huh, BS. If something is good, it shouldn't matter how much gratutitous nudity is present. Clothes, no clothes, bouncing tits, etc. Perception is just that, perception. If you have a problem with naked chicks, change your perception so that you don't. Implying that their presence somehow cheapens something is a reflection on how you view nudity, not on nudity itself.

Or to put it more simply, if you're tired of having a "DECULCHA!!" reaction, then do what Kamjin did and desensitize yourself to it.

[Pterobat]

Oh no! Not...women!

Yeah, I'm a chica and fanservice isn't my thing, but it's not about hating sex. Like anything, doing it stupidly is the problem, same as with violent content, so a discussion of the sex vs. violence double standard really isn't relevant.

With fanservice, "doing it stupidly" usually involves bringing the actual story to a screeching halt to show the goods, with the panty-chase being a perfect example.

That, and it is a personal preference--blatant fanservice detracts from the story in the sense that it reminds you the series is being made to pander, rather than just to tell a story. Most people want a pretense of objective storytelling with their shows, and to get absorbed in the story being presented. For some fanservice is just a "bonus" but for others it's a derail, even a temporary one. Badly-written action scenes can have the same effect, too.

[VF5SS]

Ok Keith, I don't care about how much you fap but I believe moderation must exist so excess can truly be enjoyed.

Otherwise everything just turns into deviantart :v