Well, I now have a chance to watch the original Macross (2nd. try)

[Wanzerfan]

Okay, so I have a nasty habit of calling Japanese surnames clan names (maybe because of the clan system in feudal Japan). That doesn't mean that you guys have to rip new one verbally because of it. So let's try this again, and please keep it civil and on topic this time, so the thread doesn't get locked.

Thank the lord for the Crackle XBox live service, because I don't want to have the hassle of watching it stretched on a 22" widescreen computer moniter.

I got through to the Lynn Minmay's birthday episode, and I'm glad to say the series so far is uncut, and pretty good for a show that was released in '82. Hearing that pixie haired brunette say the word "sh*t" when Hayase Misa sent a civillian up in a Valkyrie trainer suprsed the hell out of me. And the rant Roy gave in the first episode when Hikaru pulled his stunt was, well, let's just say that the one Fokker gave in Robotech was a Catholic sermon compared to Focker's. I'm also actually gald that Gloval's "2,000 feet" altitude above the island line is no where in the script (the ship looked like it was about two klicks above the island when the drive was activated, anyway).

I'll give a full review when I get further into the series.

Now I have a question regarding the fold drive system: did it actually vanish into thin air like in Robotech, or did it just sink into the Pacific Ocean after sending The Macross, the island. et. al. to Pluto's orbit?

Edited March 21, 2012 by Wanzerfan

[Keith]

Wow, you're still alive? Good job!!

[sketchley]

Okay, so I have a nasty habit of calling Japanese surnames clan names (maybe because of the clan system in feudal Japan). That doesn't mean that you guys have to rip new one verbally because of it.

So why are you bringing it up? Especially in your opening. Is this what you want the topic is about? Do people read more than the first line nowadays? Why not try not posting about it and hope that everyone forgets about it?

Now I have a question regarding the fold drive system: did it actually vanish into thin air like in Robotech, or did it just sink into the Pacific Ocean after sending The Macross, the island. et. al. to Pluto's orbit?

It kept going, and going, and going. Like the Energizer Bunny.

Where? Doesn't matter.

Why? The ASS-1 was a decommissioned ship that crashed on South Ataria Island and humans rebuilt. There's bound to have been more than one system that they didn't understand completely when they tried to reverse engineer and repair the ship. After the anti-gravity generators, the fold drive was the next system they lost due to this.

[Gubaba]

Okay, so I have a nasty habit of calling Japanese surnames clan names (maybe because of the clan system in feudal Japan). That doesn't mean that you guys have to rip new one verbally because of it. So let's try this again, and please keep it civil and on topic this time, so the thread doesn't get locked.

"Clan names"...? What is this, the end of the Heian Era...?

Look, it's not OUR fault if you can't keep abreast of the times...

(in this case, like, 600 years abreast...)

[rotorhead]

...and i JUST finished watching every episode a couple days ago via Crackle on Android. If you think a 22" screen is bad, try watching on a 4" one. That said, I STILL loved it! This is not Robotech... this is SDF Macross. It just felt "right" by comparison. Everything made more sense. I won't hate on Robotech though, because without it, I wouldn't know Macross at all. The funny thing is, my memories of it all were a touch foggy after the seeing most of the episodes of Robotech from 25 or so years ago (which were never replayed). Even after that long, I could tell the difference. Enjoy the show, and I can't wait for your review!

[Gubaba]

...and i JUST finished watching every episode a couple days ago via Crackle on Android. If you think a 22" screen is bad, try watching on a 4" one. That said, I STILL loved it! This is not Robotech... this is SDF Macross. It just felt "right" by comparison. Everything made more sense. I won't hate on Robotech though, because without it, I wouldn't know Macross at all. The funny thing is, my memories of it all were a touch foggy after the seeing most of the episodes of Robotech from 25 or so years ago (which were never replayed). Even after that long, I could tell the difference. Enjoy the show, and I can't wait for your review!

Wait...you're waiting for a review from the guy who thought that the JAPANESE GOVERNMENT f'in' OUTLAWED representations of Hikaru because the voice actor killed himself...? The guy who thought that Paul Verhoeven directed Starship Troopers 2 and 3...? The guy who thought the "Robotech: The Malcontent Uprisings" art was "amazing"? The guy who gets EVERYTHING wrong...?

I can do a better review. I just need to be asked.

Edited March 21, 2012 by Gubaba

[Keith]

Also, the loss of the fold drive, miss fold, gravity generators ripping out, and various other malfunctions weren't due to a lack hof understanding during backwards engineering. They were caused by cinflicts in the computers orimpfed by the activation of thr "bobytrap," as stated by Global in his flashback/clipshow episode.

[rotorhead]

ok then, any review... his review, your review, it's all fine by me. I don't read every thread in the forum, so I'm unaware what you're referring to. But having just finished seeing SDFM completely for the first time, I'm kinda excited to know and understand what this is all about, and it seems Wanzerfan and I share that aspect. It's the discussion that's most important, not so much the review. Everyone has their take on what happened and why it happened, and for once, I can *almost* join in with some semblance of knowledge. There's no need to get all up-in-arms about anything really. When a forum gets all cliquey and up it's own behind, well... everything just goes downhill from there. If you wish to do a review, by all means, do so! I'd most certainly read it too!

We like Macross. Discuss. 'nuff said?

[sketchley]

Also, the loss of the fold drive, miss fold, gravity generators ripping out, and various other malfunctions weren't due to a lack hof understanding during backwards engineering. They were caused by cinflicts in the computers orimpfed by the activation of thr "bobytrap," as stated by Global in his flashback/clipshow episode.

Correction, only the main gun firing was part of the booby trap. The rest were due to a lack of understanding of the physics behind Over Technology. (ref. Macross Chronicle Timeline pgs 8 & 9.)

[Keith]

Correction, only the main gun firing was part of the booby trap. The rest were due to a lack of understanding of the physics behind Over Technology. (ref. Macross Chronicle Timeline pgs 8 & 9.)

Nope, the gun firing "was" the booby trap. The rest of the system failures/errors were a cascading effect of the booby trap activating/conflicting with the new human OS. Seriously, watch "Global Report."

[JB0]

Correction, only the main gun firing was part of the booby trap. The rest were due to a lack of understanding of the physics behind Over Technology. (ref. Macross Chronicle Timeline pgs 8 & 9.)

Global Report, however, states that the fold system and gravity controller malfunctions were determined to be due to system instabilities arising from the booby trap's activation. The failures were not part of the booby trap per se, but were caused by it nonetheless.

So we have conflicting stories.

Personally, I tend to put more weight behind the one written during the original production over the one presented a quarter-century after the fact. Han shot first, and all that.

But as I'm not in charge of the franchise, I just get to grumble about pointless retcons. Seriously, that has to be the most pointless retcon I've ever seen. It has NO effect on anything whatsoever aside from a few fans discussing the minor details of the franchise.

[Keith]

That's neither confusing nor a retcon, we just didn't have a proper (read non-robotech) translating until 12 years ago (animeigo release). Old software overriting new software and causing massive conflicts makes a lot more sense then "oops, we f^cked up when backwards engineering." Fact is, Claudia & co were genuinely suprrised things didn't work properly, they were all trained for several years on the new hardware. Field tested or not, gravity generators tearing away from the ship & accidentally folding an entire island to Pluto are well behind the realm of "miscalculations."

Edited March 25, 2012 by Keith

[sketchley]

One character's speculation after the fact that may or may not be an accurate translation doesn't amount to very much, IMO.

Keith, notice how I didn't use "reverse engineering" in my correcting post. Please go and read the Macross Chronicle articles that I've indicated before replying as you've missed that point.

... and neither of your* arguments address why the Zentraadi acted with surprise when the SDF-1 folded so close to Earth... something that the MC articles address. Why would the subsequent problems with the fold and fold systems be due to anything but what even the Zentraadi know is an improper use of the technology? ... which is what the OP asked about...

EDIT: * the your here is JBO and Keith. Oh, confusing English pronouns!

Edited March 25, 2012 by sketchley

[Keith]

One character? You mean the Captain of the ship in question, who was aboard the ship, who would be the one person in the (Macross) universe to be privy to all the answers in that situation more than any other?

[sketchley]

Again:

Keith, notice how I didn't use "reverse engineering" in my correcting post. Please go and read the Macross Chronicle articles that I've indicated before replying as you've missed that point.

... and neither of your arguments address why the Zentraadi acted with surprise when the SDF-1 folded so close to Earth... something that the MC articles address. Why would the subsequent problems with the fold and fold systems be due to anything but what even the Zentraadi know is an improper use of the technology? ... which is what the OP asked about...

[Keith]

Why would The Zentradi act with surprise? Because it was an unconventional tactic, i.e. something that as far as they knew "hadn't been done." We know from subsequent Macross series that inter-atmospheric folds are quite possible with no ill-effects. As for articles you've linked to, I just scrowled through this topic and don't seem to see any, or do you expect me to import & translate these articles Regardless, gonna have to go with the perfectly reasonable explanation that's in the animation on this one.

Alright, just fished through the chronicle topic, and found this:http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2460.msg36659#msg36659

"Folds near atmosphere are dangerous, etc" Nowhere does it actually state that being within/Near the Earth's atmosphere was the cause of the size of the area folded, or the cause of the inaccurate defold coordinates. All it really says is that it's considered "dangerous." I could go over dozens of reasons that it would be considered dangerous, not the least of which would be making sure that the ships hull is secure/pressurized so that people don't accidentaly get sucked out into the vaccuume of space. Unlike "Global Report," there is no clear cause/effect correlation between what happened & why it happened. Britai & Exedor could just as easily been thinking "wow, that was really stupid of them, all their fighter craft could have been sucked out of their hanger."

Hell, for all we know it could have been a lie that the Protoculture told the Zentradi so they wouldn't surprise fold into a colonized world. But hell, let's take a look at some atmosphereic/near atmospheric folds in Macross.

Macross Zero: The AFOS folds right out of Earth's atmosphere to somewhere in space, then subsequently does the same with Shin.

DYRL: Misa & Hikaru get caught in Britai's fold wake, and "luckily" find themselves folded back to Earth. No nasty effects.

DYRL: Both Bodolza & Laplamiz fold close enough to the Earth's atmosphere to be seen from the ground, no nasty effects.

DYRL (Saturn/PS1 game footage mind you): ONLY the ship folded with evacuated citizens & already built city inside.

Macross Plus: Both Isamu & Guld fold just outside of Earth's defense net, not terribly far from the atmosphere. Considering that the satellites are within Earth's orbin, it can be asumed that they were as well. For that matter, they didn't fold very far from Eden either.

Macross 7: The Protodevelin fold anywhere they damn well please, no ill side effects.

Macross 7: Basara chases down Emilia's signal to a defold within that colony's atmosphere.

Macross 7: Max actually folds from orbit to the surface of Varuta 7.

Macross Dynamite 7: Liza folds from the pirate outpost to Zola's orbit.

Macross Dynamite 7: The Ginga Kujira fold right from Zola's atmosphere/orbit.

Macross Frontier: Both the Vajra & Michel fold out of Galia 4's atmosphere as the MDE is going off.

Macross F - Sayonara no Tsubasa: The Vajra infested Battle Frontier folds with Alto right off the surface of their homeworld.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Keith

[JB0]

That's neither confusing nor a retcon, we just didn't have a proper (read non-robotech) translating until 12 years ago (animeigo release).

And Macross Chronicle is far newer than that.

But hell, let's take a look at some atmosphereic/near atmospheric folds in Macross.

effects.

DYRL (Saturn/PS1 game footage mind you): ONLY the ship folded with evacuated citizens & already built city inside.

To be fair, that's from a video game based on a movie that's officially classified as a fictional dramatization WITHIN the fictional universe.

I trust that about as far as I can throw it... without owning a copy.

Everything in 7 and Plus we don't actually know they're using original fold engine designs from the Macross and Zentradi vessels. They could be improved designs with different characteristics. In fact, we KNOW the drives in Plus aren't the same as the ones in SDF Macross just from the size of the things.

They're not really fair comparisons.

One character's speculation after the fact that may or may not be an accurate translation doesn't amount to very much, IMO.

In-narrative, his "speculation" in Global Report is presented as a statement of fact in his report, not idle speculation. That implies his engineering staff is SURE that's what happened. He's not making random guesswork, he's basing this on the reports he's gotten from his engineering staff. Because he's a captain, and that's what captains do.

Hence why he's willing to trust the gravity generators at other points in the series. They know what went wrong and how to avoid it.

Here in the real world, the additional facts presented in Global Report are presumably there to give the viewers insight that they would not otherwise have.

While it may not be the BEST writing to include this explanation in the middle of a clip episode some dozen episodes later, it would be the height of bad writing to go back and offer an explanation that has no effect on the narrative and is incorrect on top of it.

In regards to this issue, Global is a trustworthy and well-informed character in-show.

He has nothing to gain by lying to his superiors, and his crew has nothing to gain by lying to him. So there's no reason to doubt his explanation within the fiction.

I posit that he is serving as a mouthpiece for the staff out of continuity. So there's no reason to doubt his explanation of events outside of the fiction.

I admit I can make no statement as to the translation accuracy, but... I can't do that for the Macross Chronicle articles either. In both cases, I'm forced to trust the work of someone else.

[sketchley]

Alright, just fished through the chronicle topic, and found this:http://www.macrossroleplay.org/forums/index.php?topic=2460.msg36659#msg36659

It should be noted that some things get lost in translation. One of them is "vanished" could also be translated as "annihilated". As in what happens when matter and anti-matter touch.

So, going back to the OP: where did the fold system go? One interpretation is that it destroyed itself.

[sketchley]

I posit that he is serving as a mouthpiece for the staff out of continuity. So there's no reason to doubt his explanation of events outside of the fiction.

I agree that he serves as the mouthpiece. But that brings up some questions: are the staff making a full disclosure, or are they providing misdirection for a later plot goal, or simply to keep the mystery alive to keep viewers interested?

Nevertheless, the question I've been mulling over is: the Macross is a booby trap vs the Macross is booby trapped.

What's shown on screen, irregardless of the dialogue, is that the ASS-1 was deliberately dropped on Earth to fire it's main gun at any pursuing Zentraadi that showed up to investigate it's defold. Lends credence to the argument that the Macross is the booby trap, eh.

On the other hand, if the ship itself had been booby trapped, why weren't there any other booby traps initiated during the exploration, investigation, rebuilding and preparations for space launch? Why also where none of those booby traps reproduced in other Over Technology using derivative technologies that Earth produced? More credence to the Macross is the booby trap.

Nevertheless, if we take Global's dialogue as the truth, it's still possible that he, and his advisers got it wrong. To the best of their knowledge at the time, they thought that the malfunctions were due to the booby trap.

Some time (decades?) later, after years of investigation, what really happened is discovered: mankind just didn't know how to operate Over Technology.

Therefore, both are correct, and there has been no retcon.

Edited March 25, 2012 by sketchley

[Gokurakumaru]

Hell, for all we know it could have been a lie that the Protoculture told the Zentradi so they wouldn't surprise fold into a colonized world. But hell, let's take a look at some atmosphereic/near atmospheric folds in Macross.

Macross Zero: The AFOS folds right out of Earth's atmosphere to somewhere in space, then subsequently does the same with Shin.

DYRL: Misa & Hikaru get caught in Britai's fold wake, and "luckily" find themselves folded back to Earth. No nasty effects.

DYRL: Both Bodolza & Laplamiz fold close enough to the Earth's atmosphere to be seen from the ground, no nasty effects.

DYRL (Saturn/PS1 game footage mind you): ONLY the ship folded with evacuated citizens & already built city inside.

Macross Plus: Both Isamu & Guld fold just outside of Earth's defense net, not terribly far from the atmosphere. Considering that the satellites are within Earth's orbin, it can be asumed that they were as well. For that matter, they didn't fold very far from Eden either.

Macross 7: The Protodevelin fold anywhere they damn well please, no ill side effects.

Macross 7: Basara chases down Emilia's signal to a defold within that colony's atmosphere.

Macross 7: Max actually folds from orbit to the surface of Varuta 7.

Macross Dynamite 7: Liza folds from the pirate outpost to Zola's orbit.

Macross Dynamite 7: The Ginga Kujira fold right from Zola's atmosphere/orbit.

Macross Frontier: Both the Vajra & Michel fold out of Galia 4's atmosphere as the MDE is going off.

Macross F - Sayonara no Tsubasa: The Vajra infested Battle Frontier folds with Alto right off the surface of their homeworld.

• From what the show implies, the AFOS is protoculture tech, not Zentradi.
  
• Bodolza and Laplamiz ships are some 10kms long. You can see the Great Wall of China from space. What makes you think they were at sub-orbital altitudes?
  
• In Plus Guld and Isamu fold in above the orbit of satellites which are at least 35,000+kms above the Earth (geostationary orbits) and hardly can be considered in the atmosphere.
  
• And Frontier explicitly states that the Vajra are using fold tech that is nothing like that seen in the rest of the franchise, i.e. near instantaneous and fault-immune. So they're a really bad example.
  
• Haven't watched all of Macross 7 so not much to say about that...
  

Unless you have some better examples of Zentradi technology being used in the same way the Macross was, yeah, it's safe to say the reaction from the Zentradi was not just because it was surprising, it's because it was downright dangerous.

[Reïvaj]

[...]Bodolza and Laplamiz ships are some 10kms long. You can see the Great Wall of China from space. What makes you think they were at sub-orbital altitudes? [...]

Actually, Bodolza and Laplamiz ships are near 600km long.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Reïvaj

[Keith]

• From what the show implies, the AFOS is protoculture tech, not Zentradi.
  
• Bodolza and Laplamiz ships are some 10kms long. You can see the Great Wall of China from space. What makes you think they were at sub-orbital altitudes?
  
• In Plus Guld and Isamu fold in above the orbit of satellites which are at least 35,000+kms above the Earth (geostationary orbits) and hardly can be considered in the atmosphere.
  
• And Frontier explicitly states that the Vajra are using fold tech that is nothing like that seen in the rest of the franchise, i.e. near instantaneous and fault-immune. So they're a really bad example.
  
• Haven't watched all of Macross 7 so not much to say about that...
  

Unless you have some better examples of Zentradi technology being used in the same way the Macross was, yeah, it's safe to say the reaction from the Zentradi was not just because it was surprising, it's because it was downright dangerous.

Psst, the ASS-1 is also Protoculture tech. Hell, the Zentradi & all their tech is Protoculture tech. Trump? Protoculture tech is derivative of Vajra tech. ::blows your mind::

Point being, these are all variations on the same family of technology.

[Keith]

I agree that he serves as the mouthpiece. But that brings up some questions: are the staff making a full disclosure, or are they providing misdirection for a later plot goal, or simply to keep the mystery alive to keep viewers interested?

Nevertheless, the question I've been mulling over is: the Macross is a booby trap vs the Macross is booby trapped.

What's shown on screen, irregardless of the dialogue, is that the ASS-1 was deliberately dropped on Earth to fire it's main gun at any pursuing Zentraadi that showed up to investigate it's defold. Lends credence to the argument that the Macross is the booby trap, eh.

On the other hand, if the ship itself had been booby trapped, why weren't there any other booby traps initiated during the exploration, investigation, rebuilding and preparations for space launch? Why also where none of those booby traps reproduced in other Over Technology using derivative technologies that Earth produced? More credence to the Macross is the booby trap.

Nevertheless, if we take Global's dialogue as the truth, it's still possible that he, and his advisers got it wrong. To the best of their knowledge at the time, they thought that the malfunctions were due to the booby trap.

Some time (decades?) later, after years of investigation, what really happened is discovered: mankind just didn't know how to operate Over Technology.

Therefore, both are correct, and there has been no retcon.

That's just it. The cascading failures in the Macross don't appear to be intentional effects of the boobytrap. The Supervision Army didn't imagine their ship would be backwards engineered. And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim Earth's engineers weren't at fault for negligence, just not the level of negligence you're implying. "someone" didn't fully debug or translate "something" in the firing mechanism or detection systems. This led to the "booby trap" not being disabled. But to imply they didn't study the hardware/software enough to make errors so big as to tear parts of the ship away, completely lose the fold drive, and drastically miscalculate the size & distance of the area folded when we have firm dialogue that states otherwise is incredibly unlikely. As has been stated, Global had no reason to lie, nor did his engineers have reason to lie to him. The fact that the Macross was able to approach Zentradi ships from every point afterward without the cannon going off proves that they identified the problem & fixed it.

[sketchley]

Here's the pertinent quote: "I don't understand the theory of it, but I understand how it moves".

Was the gravity control system improperly mounted? The SDF-1 too heavy for them to lift? Were they supplied with too much energy?

Was the fold drive mishap due to proximity to a large mass? Was it due to attempting to fold not only the SDF-1, but also the island, sea, and atmosphere along with it?

None of those questions are answered by "I understand how it moves", but "I don't understand the theory of it" explains it all.

Edited March 26, 2012 by sketchley

[Keith]

Specific quote from who, & when?

[sketchley]

<sigh>

Around in circles we be goin'...

Correction, only the main gun firing was part of the booby trap. The rest were due to a lack of understanding of the physics behind Over Technology. (ref. Macross Chronicle Timeline pgs 8 & 9.)

[Keith]

<sigh>

Around in circles we be goin'...

Uh huh, thought so. I'll stick with Global on this, thanks!