Aircraft Super Thread Mk.VII

[electric indigo]

Isn't it time for PLAAF inspired schemes...?

[slide]

15 hours ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

Dunno about the Su-57, but the 57th Air Wing are hoping to use "threat representative" colour schemes for their F-35's.

https://theaviationist.com/2020/09/17/exclusive-57th-wing-confirms-plan-to-use-threat-representative-color-scheme-on-the-aggressor-f-35s/

"threat representative"

and

 

Don't seem to mesh...

 

I've never liked the "Wraith" scheme... I mean: Who is the supposed "threat"?

Hollywood? ...Tony Scott's production team in particular?!

Dr. Disrespect??

...

COBRA?????? 

 

Joking aside:

To me, that article reads a lot like some nerd like me asked the question, and the answer was an enthusiastic "We want to, and we all know the squadron will try it the first chance they get regardless, but we're trying to figure out the whole paint thing through official channels between the eggheads over at LM and the brass... but we really really want to fly the cool camo'd-up F-35's!"

again, to my previous point... Is it to intimidate the nuggets? because that actually might be a good enough reason... can anyone think of another good reason to do it, other than "it looks neat"?

Edited September 18, 2020 by slide

[slide]

54 minutes ago, electric indigo said:

Isn't it time for PLAAF inspired schemes...?

Past-time, methinks... but their front-liners are rocking mostly boring grey-tones too, aren't they?

Edited September 18, 2020 by slide

[David Hingtgen]

There's black J-20's:

#2001 and 2002 are black I think, maybe others?  Though 2001 is a prototype (un-clipped fins and canards).  Not sure if any production-standard ones are black.  

[electric indigo]

Recent J-20s sport a metallic lo-vis splinter camo, so you can have the best of both worlds.

-

What's new in the sky these days:

KLM conducts a study of a funky V-Wing in cooperation with Airbus:

while Airbus puts it's blended wing design on the list of contenders for a future zero emission product line

and then there's the Celera 500L bullet plane

[Jaustin89]

6 hours ago, electric indigo said:

KLM conducts a study of a funky V-Wing in cooperation with Airbus:

BWBs are awesome and would almost certainly be the future if we could rebuild every airport with a wider runway but that monstrocity literally made me wince. The stress loads that thing'd have to carry across the vertex of the notch with lift surfaces split like that are insane.

 Can we stop letting art majors drive the concepts for things only to then require that people with a functional grasp of basic physics will have to spend years arguing against to their bosses waisting ridiculous ammounts of time and money?

Granted it's just a study so the most probable outcome is a basic simulation showing the stress analysis and then no one ever having to see that design ever again.

 

[Sanity is Optional]

28 minutes ago, Jaustin89 said:

 Can we stop letting art majors drive the concepts for things only to then require that people with a functional grasp of basic physics will have to spend years arguing against to their bosses waisting ridiculous ammounts of time and money?

FWIW, TU Delft is one of the top Aerospace schools in Europe. The people who approve experimental aircraft for flight in the Netherlands are professors there.

I Went there for a year, before switching schools and changing to Mechanical Engineering.

[Jaustin89]

20 minutes ago, Sanity is Optional said:

FWIW, TU Delft is one of the top Aerospace schools in Europe. The people who approve experimental aircraft for flight in the Netherlands are professors there.

I Went there for a year, before switching schools and changing to Mechanical Engineering.

That just makes it weirder; that whole design is a glaring stress concentration and metal fatigue nightmare with any differential in lift getting funneled into that one area. I mean you can design around and mittigate that but there's going to be compromises to do so.

The only thing I can see that design gaining over a typical BWB design is a bit of weight reduction but you're taking hits on the structural integrity and maintnance of the airframe, the internal space for passengers/cargo, and your lifting surface at minimum. I'd be willing to bet that the merging of the airstreams over each of those body segments is going to be a mess and add a fair bit of drag to the design as well.

I could see something similar with a tail plane with some structural beams in side it across the base of the triangle to spread stresses at least working but even then I wouldn't think it'd have any notable advantages over a traditional BWB planform.

[Sanity is Optional]

It was probably primarily an aerodynamic concept, as in designed solely from an aerodynamic point of view.

[David Hingtgen]

MiG-29's and Su-25's with full light strips?   Yup.  North Korea gonna North Korea.  

 

[derex3592]

All I can think of is Seven Of Nine got a hold of all their planes and half assimilated them with Borg tech.....

[renegadeleader1]

4 hours ago, derex3592 said:

All I can think of is Seven Of Nine got a hold of all their planes and half assimilated them with Borg tech.....

All I can think is North Koreans finally got to see a bootleg copy of The Fast & The Furious.

[Dobber]

My question is....are they racing for the aircraft titles? Lol

[slide]

*race ensues, pilot flips his ride "F*** it, I didn't sign for it!!"

 

*EDIT* Now that I've actually watched that video. I'm actually kind of impressed those LED strips stayed mounted for the duration of their flight...

Edited October 11, 2020 by slide

[Dobber]

4 hours ago, slide said:

*race ensues, pilot flips his ride "F*** it, I didn't sign for it!!"

 

*EDIT* Now that I've actually watched that video. I'm actually kind of impressed those LED strips stayed mounted for the duration of their flight...

“Just Don’t Eject”

Chris

[Shadow]

Nice documentary.

 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Shadow

[kajnrig]

Every time I'm reminded that the F-23 could have existed, I get a little teary-eyed...

Anyway, since we're sharing documentaries now, I know I've shared this before, but here's an episode of NOVA focusing on the second most famous prototype fighter jet battle, the JSF development program:

 

[renegadeleader1]

1 hour ago, kajnrig said:

Every time I'm reminded that the F-23 could have existed, I get a little teary-eyed...

Anyway, since we're sharing documentaries now, I know I've shared this before, but here's an episode of NOVA focusing on the second most famous prototype fighter jet battle, the JSF development program:

 

I'll say the same thing I've said before, Boeing screwed themselves. They showed up with an incomplete model that didn't meet the competition parameters, and made a bunch of promises that they would fix the issues later if it got funded. It's a no brainer they lost this competition.

[anime52k8]

I'm still really fascinated by the idea of a production F-32.

[Knight26]

4 hours ago, anime52k8 said:

I'm still really fascinated by the idea of a production F-32.

It was actually a really nice design.  A real successor to the A-7/F-8.  It reminds me again why the JSF should have been a tech-dev/demo platform that lead to multiple aircraft

[Chronocidal]

Yeah, much like the F-22A revised and refined the awkwardness of the YF-22, that F-32 design would have been a lot easier to stomach than the guppy.   I don't think the intake on that concept art would have ever been sufficient though.

Also, depending on who you talk to, the JSF program did lead to multiple aircraft.  

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Chronocidal

[Sildani]

Boeing did a crap job with the single(!) prototype and also did a crap job selling it. 
 

Lockheed had two prototypes that wouldn’t need a whole lot of redesign and completed the flight test programs with some extra activities thrown in. 

[Shadow]

Well, well. Look who's come to play at Miramar.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37171/f-117-nighthawks-make-surprise-visit-to-mcas-miramar-in-san-diego

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Shadow

[M'Kyuun]

Continuing the discussion of the flying V.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/scale-model-of-futuristic-plane-makes-successful-maiden-flight/vi-BB18NaWI?ocid=msedgdhp

I think Airbus have the right idea with their blended wing design. It's elegant, and likely more stable than the V. Just an impression; I'm no engineer.

As for the YF-23, it's a terrible shame that the wrong plane won the competition.  What a gorgeous and capable aircraft. I must cede props to Lockheed, though; Kelly Johnson was not only a brilliant engineer, but a damned good marketer, and he set an excellent precedent for the company so far as building trust with the govt and delivering the goods, often under budget. If Northrop-Grumman had exceeded contractual minimal requisites like Lockheed had, things may have turned out differently. But I've also read that pilots preferred the more conventional design of the 22, although that may just be bureaucratic bluster to  cover for other reasons. That said, it may be true that the pilots didn't trust the YF-23's design. By all the test pilots' accounts I've read, she was a sweet ride.  I got to see PAV1 at the Air Force Museum near Dayton; what a striking aircraft she is; sitting still, she looks faster than Lockheed's winged box. Considering that speed and stealth topped the list of most desired characteristics, in which the YF-23 was superior, they chose the jet with more agility, despite the fact that dogfighting and close combat aren't desirable, preferring to strike from a distance undetected.  It's interesting that the documentary mentions that the YF-23's capabilities would be preferable over the 22's against modern adversaries' aircraft. Too, the F-22 has had its share of cost overruns and mechanical difficulties, especially the pilot's O2 system, over the years, so some of their credibility was tarnished a bit.  I'm always happy to see some of the design cues of the 23 implemented in drones and such, and hopefully when the next generational fighter program comes around, that plane will borrow heavily from the YF-23. After all, what's better than perfection? 

Boeing's F-32, much like most Transformer jets, was lovely from a single angle, top down. From any other angle, it looked bloated, almost penguin-like in it's side profile. I thought it was an eyesore from day one, and even if it happened to have better flight characteristic than YF-35, I imagine the Pentagon brass, as well as pilots, took one look at it and gave it an immediate thumbs down based on looks alone. It may be shallow, but that's reality. Image matters as much, if not more, than performance, especially in the egocentric world of fighters. It's  shame, as Boeing's final design looked much netter than their X-plane for the competition.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/20971/this-is-what-a-boeing-f-32-wouldve-looked-like-if-lockheed-lost-the-jsf-competition

Very cool to see an F-117 out and about. I thought they were all retired, but I imagine, given its unconventional design, they still keep a couple operational for research purposes, as they should. It's a one-of-a-kind aircraft, and as technology and our understanding of physics and aerodynamics evolves, there's likely more to be learned from flight tests with such a plane.  Too, it just looks cool. Somewhere in engineering heaven, Ben Rich and Kelly Johnson are clinking mugs with big smiles.

And look at all those lovely Ospreys in the background when the Nighthawk lands. 

[kajnrig]

I would expect that any remaining airworthy F-117s are lacking their 80s-era RAM applications now, yes? I've heard nothing but horror stories about the growing pains of that technology, and it can't possibly still be in use today save for perhaps really specific test flights...

[M'Kyuun]

I'm sure it has evolved from the F-117 days, where the the entire paneling process was its own specialty. I'm not sure how they handle it with the B-2, but I think it's similar. If anyone here is in the actual know, educate us. As for the F-22, again, I'm not certain how they handle the paneling so far as maintenance of the stealth aspect is concerned. It's certainly going to be more involved than a non-stealthy aircraft, where crew chiefs and maintainers are using speed handles and drills to remove/reinstall screws with little to no additional labor, aside from some possible sealant where warranted. If the regular maintainers are pulling panels at the field level, I'd assume there are special procedures in their maintenance manuals for applying some sort of putty or such to fill gaps. Heck, even the indents in screws would have to be filled to prevent radar returns, so screws may not even be in use. I've never been close enough to a F-22 to see, but my guess is that special snap fasteners are likely used on panels where regular access is required, and they probably have some sort of radar absorbent tape or such to cover the fasteners. Everything else is likely screwed on, and then covered in absorbent materials and paint.

Stealth is cool, but the requirements of maintaining it seem to me like they'd be a royal pain. Glad I never had to deal with it. Dealing with titanium screws on the B-1 was a big enough pain. Changing an engine on those was fun, but everything else sucked. The same company, Rockwell, formerly North American, designed both the B-1 and the orbiter for NASA's Space Transportation System. Knowing how extremely non-maintenance friendly the B-1 was designed, my heart goes out to the folks who had to maintain those mighty beasts, especially when time was critical to meet a launch window. I've long been enamored of the Shuttle Program, and I'm sure the folks who kept her flying took immense pride in their work and in the spacecraft, but when they retired the STS, along with tears of sadness, I'll bet there there were also a few sighs of relief too. 

[slide]

1 hour ago, M'Kyuun said:

If anyone here is in the actual know, educate us.

 I'm afraid of the price for that knowledge...

[Chronocidal]

18 hours ago, slide said:

 I'm afraid of the price for that knowledge...

No actual knowledge of the processes involved, but if you think maintenance on land-based stealth aircraft is complicated, just imagine how difficult it is to keep up that process on a carrier, in a salt-water environment.

[Shadow]

Remaining F-117s have been pretty active over at Tonopah for a few years now and are even participating in Red Flag.

There were rumors as well that 4 Nighthawks were involved in missions over Syria a few years ago.

 

Another good shot of one flying out of Nellis apparently.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Shadow

[Thom]

On 10/30/2020 at 1:18 PM, M'Kyuun said:

...snip

...snip

I need a model of this plane!

[David Hingtgen]

AFAIK, the F-35 uses lots and lots of tape, for sealing panels.  Not sure about the -22, I think it uses more putty/effort, and tried to "just do EVERYTHING through the weapons and landing gear bay doors".   

[electric indigo]

8 hours ago, Thom said:

I need a model of this plane!

I looked into modding the Italeri kit, but it would not be far from a total scratch built model.

[Thom]

1 hour ago, electric indigo said:

I looked into modding the Italeri kit, but it would not be far from a total scratch built model.

I could imagine it being 'unofficially' known as the Screaming Chicken.

[Shadow]

I would have been down with calling the F-32 the Crusader II.

[kalvasflam]

12 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

AFAIK, the F-35 uses lots and lots of tape, for sealing panels.  Not sure about the -22, I think it uses more putty/effort, and tried to "just do EVERYTHING through the weapons and landing gear bay doors".   

Duct tape, also known to any first year engineering student as the universal solution to any problems.  If you don’t like the color... just paint it black, or in the case of the USAF, paint it grey.

as a relatively famous person might have said once. If you don’t know the utility of duct tape, then you ain’t a real engineer.