Aircraft Super Thread Mk.VII

[F-ZeroOne]

Oh, I know the Defiant wasn't successful as a day fighter. It just fascinates me for some reason. At least I didn't say the Roc...

[Chronocidal]

On 8/3/2019 at 4:06 PM, captain america said:

I don't know if this was ever posted, but if not, you've GOT to hear this ex Tomcat pilot. Straight talk, no BS, not politically correct. I was really surprised with what he had to say about the "troublesome" F-14A engines.

A little surprised, but keep in mind, the TF-30s were employed in a lot more than the F-14, and I recall reading that the F-111 fixed the compressor stall issues with intake modifications.  I entirely get his explanation that all of the stalls he experienced were his own fault, since I think rapid throttle motions were really the main direct cause.

The compressor stalls were just compounded by the yaw instability inherent to the design, which wasn't truly "fixed" until the controls were upgraded with computers that would prevent pilots from throwing the plane into a spin.

[M'Kyuun]

I'm currently reading Endurance by Scott Kelly; prior to becoming an astronaut, he was a Navy pilot, flying the F-14 during the Gulf War in the 90s, and later as a test pilot. He mentioned a couple times that the F-14 had terrible flight characteristics. He makes mention of Kara Hultgreen's crash, pointing out the poor inlet airflow in turns and subsequent compressor stalls that were a known issue with the plane. Although he doesn't express it emphatically, and he's fairly candid, I think he shed no tears when they finally retired it in 2006. Kelly says he tested one of the improvements, and that, had it been installed at the time, it likely would have saved Hultgreen's life.

According to the F-14 Wikipedia article, the TF-30 had a low thrust to weight ratio, and the engines were very susceptible to compressor stalls, which could lead to unrecoverable flat spins. The Secretary of the Navy during the 80's called it a "terrible engine". Not exactly a glowing endorsement.

I still think she's a right pretty airplane, though. I had an opportunity to 'tour' the USS Kitty Hawk back in the mid 90's, and there was a lone F-14 parked on the flight deck with an engine removed. As an Air Force guy, I remember it's being big, cool, filthy, and forlorn.  

 

[Sildani]

The Warthog flies into the ‘30’s...

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/08/13/a-10-re-winging-completed-will-keep-warthog-in-the-air-until-late-2030s/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=Socialflow+AIR&fbclid=IwAR2hXAVwAfU7R94JaJ_Pk9gqzJ4_MlhkrR-LJlxbWsO2iq0oGxJIbMWSZAk

[AN/ALQ128]

I went to the Abbotsford Airshow last Saturday. Unfortunately, the day I went it rained and the Thunderbirds cancelled their demo. Was pretty bummed out, but I still got to see some USN Super Hornets and an RCAF CF-18 stretch their legs.

Man, movies and videogames don't do the sound of a proper low altitude high speed pass by a jet fighter justice, feeling the vibrations rattle the insides of your ribcage is awesome.

[Chronocidal]

19 hours ago, Sildani said:

The Warthog flies into the ‘30’s...

https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your-air-force/2019/08/13/a-10-re-winging-completed-will-keep-warthog-in-the-air-until-late-2030s/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=Socialflow+AIR&fbclid=IwAR2hXAVwAfU7R94JaJ_Pk9gqzJ4_MlhkrR-LJlxbWsO2iq0oGxJIbMWSZAk

That's all kinds of awesome and encouraging, really.  I hope the Air Force has the wherewithal to drum up a true replacement by then.  

Honestly, for some aircraft, I don't see why a complete replacement is even necessary.  Obviously, combat aircraft do need upgrades and enhancements to keep them relevant, but when you have a tried and true design, I often wonder whether it would be viable to open production lines to produce upgraded copies of older designs.

I imagine a rather large issue is keeping the tooling intact, but I mean, look at the C-130.  They're still cranking brand new variants of that plane out of the factories.  When you have something that does the job well, sometimes it just makes sense to keep making them.

[Vifam7]

3 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

That's all kinds of awesome and encouraging, really.  I hope the Air Force has the wherewithal to drum up a true replacement by then.  

Honestly, for some aircraft, I don't see why a complete replacement is even necessary.  Obviously, combat aircraft do need upgrades and enhancements to keep them relevant, but when you have a tried and true design, I often wonder whether it would be viable to open production lines to produce upgraded copies of older designs.

I think the difficulty in finding a replacement for the A-10 is trying to figure out what kind of wars the USAF is expected to fight in the future and whether it wants a lower cost replacement to the A-10 or higher cost/spec replacement to the A-10. If the USAF is expected to fight in more low-intensity conflicts where the opposition has little to no anti-aircraft missiles or fighter aircraft force, then the choice is to buy something like the A-29 Super Tucano. If the USAF is expected to fight an enemy that has a credible fighter aircraft force or sophisticated SAM systems,  then the choice may be to buy more F-35s.  The A-10 is sort of in between. It's overkill for going after jihadists on camels and pickup trucks, but too vulnerable to fly in areas where there are enemy fighters or SAMs.  Since it's hard to make the decision on the replacement, perhaps it's just as well that the A-10 goes on for another decade or 2.

 

[AN/ALQ128]

7 hours ago, Chronocidal said:

I imagine a rather large issue is keeping the tooling intact, but I mean, look at the C-130.  They're still cranking brand new variants of that plane out of the factories.  When you have something that does the job well, sometimes it just makes sense to keep making them.

Well, it helps that the C-130 has been a major export success for Lockheed, which is why the tooling and manufacturing lines have been kept warmed up. Compare that to the A-10 (sole operator: the US) and Fairchild-Republic(which hasn't existed as a corporate entity for years).

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by AN/ALQ128
reworded

[Shadow]

Finnish Hornet display.

 

Edited August 17, 2019 by Shadow

[renegadeleader1]

So I mentioned briefly on the previous page that I was heading to the Seattle area for vacation at the end of next month, well it looks like it's going to be a doozy as far as aircraft are concerned.

 

First stop is heading south into Oregon to visit the Evergreen Air Museum where the Spruce Goose is kept.

Then heading over to the coast to the Tillamook Air Museum since my brother wants to see the Pacific Ocean and I want to artifacts from the Hindenburg dirigible.

After that we head north to see the B-23 Dragon at the McChord AFB Museum.

Then in Seattle proper we're visiting the Museum of Flight.

Continuing to head north to Paine field we have the Boeing tour, Historic Flight Foundation, and the Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum.

The final place we are visit once we get back to his home in Montana is a 3 hour trip north of his house to tour Malmstrom AFB and their museum.

 

AVIATION VACATION! YAY!

[Thom]

Whose going to be like a kid in a candy store! I'd say 'have fun', but I guess the words don't need to be said...

[Vifam7]

18 hours ago, renegadeleader1 said:

So I mentioned briefly on the previous page that I was heading to the Seattle area for vacation at the end of next month, well it looks like it's going to be a doozy as far as aircraft are concerned.

 

First stop is heading south into Oregon to visit the Evergreen Air Museum where the Spruce Goose is kept.

Then heading over to the coast to the Tillamook Air Museum since my brother wants to see the Pacific Ocean and I want to artifacts from the Hindenburg dirigible.

After that we head north to see the B-23 Dragon at the McChord AFB Museum.

Then in Seattle proper we're visiting the Museum of Flight.

Continuing to head north to Paine field we have the Boeing tour, Historic Flight Foundation, and the Flying Heritage & Combat Armor Museum.

The final place we are visit once we get back to his home in Montana is a 3 hour trip north of his house to tour Malmstrom AFB and their museum.

 

AVIATION VACATION! YAY!

 

Just make sure your camera is charged up and there's plenty of storage space in the memory card. 

The Boeing factory doesn't allow any cameras, including smartphones, inside though.

[AN/ALQ128]

Japan is about to greenlight the successor to the Mitsubishi F-2 in 2020's budget

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20190821-00050130-yom-pol

"The government has entered into final adjustments in the direction of recording the development expenses for the successor aircraft of the Air Self-Defense Force in the 2020 budget. Aiming for Japan-led development, development costs are currently estimated to be more than 1.5 trillion yen. Aiming for introduction in the mid-30s when the retirement of F2 begins."

"In the government, considering the deterrence to China that strengthens marine advancement, the successor plane is the first domestically produced stealth fighter, and a plan to achieve high air combat capability is promising. There is also a plan to equip a long-range cruise missile with a high level of anti-ship capability. The deployment of about 90 aircraft similar to F2 is assumed."

 

 

[Sildani]

Well, best of luck to them. Hopefully international pressure won’t be brought to bear to cancel the project, like what happened to the Arrow and TSR-2. 

[David Hingtgen]

Looks more like YF-23 or YF-21?  

They do "the Max and Milia thing" fairly early on.  

[slide]

call me when they can control the Su-57 with their brains...

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by slide

[kalvasflam]

The problem with the SU57 is that it looks like they took the Flanker and mashed it together with an F-22.  It's interesting, ever since the advent of the Raptor, every stealth fighter (concept or production) looks like it.  It is as if all the engineering thoughts and efforts behind stealth aircraft have gone away.  It is either an F-22 form factor for a fighter, or a flying wing form factor for a bomber.  

What happened to the innovators out there?  Can someone at the old MCD or Northrop please knock off LMC as the sole producer of stealth fighters.... I'm starting to get sick of the same generic form factors.

[F-ZeroOne]

My main impression from that demo is... "Heavy". It just looks like its... I'm not sure how to express this... weighty?

[505thAirborne]

5 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

Looks more like YF-23 or YF-21?  

They do "the Max and Milia thing" fairly early on.  

@1:56  That is awesome! 

[electric indigo]

17 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

The problem with the SU57 is that it looks like they took the Flanker and mashed it together with an F-22.  It's interesting, ever since the advent of the Raptor, every stealth fighter (concept or production) looks like it.  It is as if all the engineering thoughts and efforts behind stealth aircraft have gone away.  It is either an F-22 form factor for a fighter, or a flying wing form factor for a bomber.  

What happened to the innovators out there?  Can someone at the old MCD or Northrop please knock off LMC as the sole producer of stealth fighters.... I'm starting to get sick of the same generic form factors.

You'll have to admit that the Su-57 does have the more innovative paintjob.

[kalvasflam]

It is a very interesting paint job.  I am still waiting for the hot pink SU-34 with Taylor Swift images plastered all over it.  Hahaha.

[AN/ALQ128]

On this day in 1990, the YF-23 PAV-1 took its first flight.

 

[Dobber]

1 minute ago, AN/ALQ128 said:

On this day in 1990, the YF-23 PAV-1 took its first flight.

 

So disappointed this never made it to production or re-emerge ala the YF-17-F/A-18. 

[electric indigo]

2 hours ago, Dobber said:

So disappointed this never made it to production or re-emerge ala the YF-17-F/A-18. 

Just wait for the new Eurofighter...

[Sildani]

Or maybe the Japanese F-3. 

[kalvasflam]

Hmmmm, the weapons bay arrangement is interesting... does it mean you have to shoot the AMRAAMs before the sidewiders?

In other news, I heard the Russians were trying to push the SU-57 for the Turks now that the latter have been kicked out of the F-35 program.  What a mess.  I can't foresee anything good happening on this front other than Turkey eventually leaving NATO unless somehow Erdogan gets removed from power in the next two to three years.  

[Knight26]

48 minutes ago, kalvasflam said:

Hmmmm, the weapons bay arrangement is interesting... does it mean you have to shoot the AMRAAMs before the sidewiders?

In other news, I heard the Russians were trying to push the SU-57 for the Turks now that the latter have been kicked out of the F-35 program.  What a mess.  I can't foresee anything good happening on this front other than Turkey eventually leaving NATO unless somehow Erdogan gets removed from power in the next two to three years.  

Sidewinders are/would have been, in a bay forward of the main weapons bay.  The missiles in the main bay were to be arranged on a trapeze launcher.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Knight26

[kalvasflam]

2 hours ago, Knight26 said:

Sidewinders are/would have been, in a bay forward of the main weapons bay.  The missiles in the main bay were to be arranged on a trapeze launcher.

sigh... it would have been awesome. 

But it is also a reminder why you do want some non-stealthy 5th gen fighters or may be 4.5 gens in the mix. 

Simply put, a plane like this is designed to kill stuff, not for the purpose of intercepting Mr. Bear in the cold of Alaska or to troll over the middle east against literally non-existent threat for the most part.  You put a plane like the F-23 or F-22 in to achieve total air dominance, wipe out the enemy air capabilities, while eliminating enough of the ground based anti-air threat with assets like the F-35 to enable enough gaps in coverage so that the 4.5 gen non-stealthy bomb trucks can go in and do their job.

[sketchley]

9 hours ago, Knight26 said:

(...)The missiles in the main bay were to be arranged on a trapeze launcher.

 

If memory serves, this was one of the bigger reasons why the fighter was rejected.  While it could have carried more missiles internally, if there was a problem with any of the missiles on the lowest level, then all of the missiles above would be unusable (stuck).

[AN/ALQ128]

10 hours ago, kalvasflam said:

You put a plane like the F-23 or F-22 in to achieve total air dominance, wipe out the enemy air capabilities, while eliminating enough of the ground based anti-air threat with assets like the F-35 to enable enough gaps in coverage so that the 4.5 gen non-stealthy bomb trucks can go in and do their job.

That's quite literally the playbook for the USAF right now.

 

[electric indigo]

The Berkut on a surprise visit at MAKS 2019:

[Sildani]

Surprise indeed. I figured the Berkut would have been scrapped or sent to Monino by now.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Sildani

[Shadow]

Looking at the YF-23. I had no idea they were planning an additional bay for 4 extra AMRAAMs in the back. I also wonder if more could have been fitted with the clipped-winged AIM-120C along with potentially 4 AIM-9Xs in the front.

Another interesting piece on the F-117.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/29606/51-f-117-nighthawk-stealth-jets-remain-in-inventory-only-one-destroyed-in-last-two-years

[David Hingtgen]

My camera started dying this summer (don't know why, I mean, a digital camera shouldn't really "age" much), and I literally bought a new (well, new-ER) one off ebay yesterday to replace it, as it will NOT make it much longer---this is the best pic I got this season I think:

This is totally raw from the camera, asides from re-sizing.  (would have a lot more pics from the last 2 shows, but--camera kept dying early on)  

[Vifam7]

2 hours ago, David Hingtgen said:

My camera started dying this summer (don't know why, I mean, a digital camera shouldn't really "age" much), and I literally bought a new (well, new-ER) one off ebay yesterday to replace it, as it will NOT make it much longer---this is the best pic I got this season I think:

 

This is totally raw from the camera, asides from re-sizing.  (would have a lot more pics from the last 2 shows, but--camera kept dying early on)  

My camera from 2007 started acting funny last year as well. Purchased a brand new one earlier this year once I learned that the RAF Red Arrows were making a North American tour. 

Went to the NY Airshow at Stewart Int'l Airport last weekend.

My 3 best pics of the day.  2 of them are of the B-25.