All Things Videogame Related: EXTREME VS!!

[frothymug]

Is that an ashtray next to his right hand?

[Einherjar]

It's because the game controls are listed in-game, and there isn't really anything else going on with it that needs to be put into a manual. I'm not even sure why it even has a single-player campaign anymore.

Maybe to show the real next innovation in the franchise - The Dog.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Einherjar

[David Hingtgen]

Squirrel cage blower? Should be smooth and quiet to start with. Then get rattles over time.

[Benson13]

Looking for some Diablo 3 players on the 360. Send me a PM.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

the ex-microsoft employee who started the xbone flaming and mass anger among gamers with his comments which led to alot of gamers turning to the ps4, speaks out for the first time after the incident:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/11/6/5075106/adam-orth-xbox-one-gdc-next

[Duke Togo]

the ex-microsoft employee who started the xbone flaming and mass anger among gamers with his comments which led to alot of gamers turning to the ps4, speaks out for the first time after the incident:

http://www.polygon.com/2013/11/6/5075106/adam-orth-xbox-one-gdc-next

I'm pretty sure MS policies were responsible for people switching to the PS4. This guy just made some fairly stupid comments about the user base's reaction to these policies.

[David Hingtgen]

Really, he just simplified it for more people to understand what MS's convoluted policies were. He mainly made more people aware of what MS planned.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

i'll just state that having horrible policy alone do not deter people.

360 had RROD,

You had to pay subscriptions to play online:

PS3 is FREE to play online

PS3 hardware had significantly less failure rate than the 360 at launch.

didn't matter... people just kept buying replacements even before microsoft had implemented the extended warranties. why did gamers keep buying the 360? bc they were so turned off by Playstation founder ken kutaragi's comments of the next gen when asked about the insane price point and 3rd party exclusives cost to publish on the PS3 (lost GTA exclusive bc of his arrogance)

up until then 3rd party publishers PAID Sony to publish games on their system. (the economy of 3rd party were similar to food companies paying supermarkets for shelf space to put out their products)

MS turned that around and paid 3rd party publishers to get exclusives... Sony refused to follow suit initially... until microsoft was gaining steam then sony was forced to pay as well....

so the momentum was on MS side and when they came out with the always online idea. a lot of people were open but skeptical how it work and wanted to know more about it. as steam had a similar format and next gen gaming looked like it was going all digital.

then when adam said those jerk comments at the time when people were generally curious of how a steam like format will work for consoles, it really started a flame and then every policy of microsoft thereafter was scrutinized.

case in point is the miami dolphins today (if you follow sports) locker rooms always talked rough, now it's being scrutinized bc of that one incident which went national where a guy says he was being bullied. now every news outlet is trying to see what's going on in the NFL and scrutinizing any bullying.

sorry, but i think MS would of got away with their trade in used games policy at that point. but this guy crapped on people and microsoft did not a have a counter response but kept saying different statements which just antagonized the gaming community, and things snowballed out of control. Don Matrick came out and DID NOT ADDRESS anything of their policies during their xbox one debut which just killed them.... in the media who were now officially killing MA (the snowball turn to an avalanche of negative press)

when the media were now pent up in frustration with the MS non addressing, they waiting to see Sony's press conference which let out a breath when Sony said no DRM will be implemented) the whole gaming community cheered and best of all the price point was lower putting a nail on top of it.

again, sony was going to attempt to use some form of DRM as well to block out used games sales to support 1st party pubs, but backed away once MS was stuck in that firestorm.

in reality ps4 has no/little launch games. can't play cd music and need to be online to unlock bluray. and are vharging to play online.

but nobody is paying attention cause they got momentum... and though MS reversed their policy to have no DRM,, it's too late and they're going to play catch up similar to the PS3 vs. the 360...

i don't think MS policy was bad but it was their PR that really pissed people off then people rejected it totally.

Edited November 8, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[Duke Togo]

i don't think MS policy was bad but it was their PR that really pissed people off then people rejected it totally.

You couldn't be more wrong. MS restricted usage rights that had been in place for decades, and somehow were totally ignorant of the realities of broadband infrastructure and limitations not just in the US, but around the world. Their user base reacted very negatively toward this, and bailed when Sony said "hey guys, nothing janky going on over here."

It's also important to note that by the time the first rumors were hitting, the PS3 had already surpassed the 360 in global sales. They had to give consumers a reason to buy their new console, and instead they pulled another Windows 8 and said "take this and adapt--we don't care if it doesn't work the way you want it to."

Compounding the issue is that MS ignored months of customer backlash over the leaks that were coming out about the console, and only changed course when they realized PS4 pre-orders were dwarfing those of the Xbone. You can't ignore your user base, and you can't sour potential customers on your product before it even hits the shelves.

Btw, who plays CDs on their game console? Hell, who plays CDs?

Edited November 8, 2013 by Duke Togo

[Kanedas Bike]

^ agree

And while I'm not in a rush to buy either the One or PS4, when I do purchase I'll be getting the PlayStation first, vs. last go-round when I bought the 360 first.

-b.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

You couldn't be more wrong. MS restricted usage rights that had been in place for decades, and somehow were totally ignorant of the realities of broadband infrastructure and limitations not just in the US, but around the world. Their user base reacted very negatively toward this

your repeating a lot of points i just stated... and not acknowledging the order of events.

they only got crazy when someone(at this point it was a small percentage group on neogaf that was discussing this, not the general public) asked about how this always online would be implemented in parts of the world which were not online. at this point people loved their 360's and supported MS but were skeptically curious about implementation but still supported MS.

adam said some dumb comments... which was not MS stance as they haven't rolled out their plans officially but since he worked for the company his comment represented MS. AT THIS POINT people got crazy and began to turn on MS. and then MS higher ups did not address the always online issue but side stepped it during their official press conference.

Edited November 8, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[mikeszekely]

Btw, who plays CDs on their game console? Hell, who plays CDs?

*raises hand* I do. Why buy an album on iTunes or whatever for $.99-$1.29 per track when I can buy the whole thing for $7.99-$9.99 at Target in a format that conveniently works in my car?

[Duke Togo]

*raises hand* I do. Why buy an album on iTunes or whatever for $.99-$1.29 per track when I can buy the whole thing for $7.99-$9.99 at Target in a format that conveniently works in my car?

Oh, I don't disagree with buying CDs. I just see it as an archival medium. I rip everything down to digital files and the CDs go on the rack.

[Duke Togo]

AT THIS POINT people got crazy and began to turn on MS. and then MS higher ups did not address the always online issue but side stepped it during their official press conference.

I will agree with you here--to a point. There was a lot of grumbling over the rumors, but they were only just that. They could have been wrong (as the same rumors about the PS4 ultimately proved to be). When he essentially confirms them with his comments is when the shite really hits the fan.

I'm still flabbergasted by how MS handled this.

[David Hingtgen]

I need CD's for as long as I own my current car. In fact, I have to convert "digital-only" albums to CDA format, to make a version to play on my car! Buying an album off itunes or Amazon, is the opposite of "convenient" for me---I then have to convert and burn copies to play in my car. Whereas if I own a CD---I can play it in my car, then take it out of my car when I get home and continue listening to it on my stereo.

Or at least I could, until my stereo died, and nothing available nowadays is even half the quality of my kaput one. There's some good ones overseas, but almost none are imported here by reputable dealers.

Want a kick-ass new Sony stereo? Live in Pakistan. Seriously.

I've been practically music-less since my stereo died, I pretty much have only my car. (listening to CD's on a game system is very impractical---they read and load slowly, and none are multi-disc)

Still, NOT being able to play CD's on a PS4 seems almost like they made an effort NOT to do it. What disc-based system has ever not been backwards compatible? CD's are the root of all discs. I mean:

CD players read CD's. CD-ROM players can also read CD's. DVD players can read DVD, CD-ROM, and CD. DVD-ROM can read all of the above. Blu-Ray can read all of the above. BD-ROM can read all of the above. And here comes the PS4---which can't read the original basis of "digital disc media"? WTF?

That'd be like a computer in 2014 saying "nope, no BMP files, that's old-school, only PNG please". It's a raw basic inherent format that should be "readable forever" due to its simplicity and massive amount of stuff already in that format. Even if "out of date".

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

I'm pretty sure MS policies were responsible for people switching to the PS4. This guy just made some fairly stupid comments about the user base's reaction to these policies.

Duke, i actually agree with the first part of your comment above and was about to revise my original post bc your post was actually on point and my original comment was a bit off and needed revision.

(i actually had nothing to do all day so i'm writing essay length comments.)

i was actually responding to David's comments and making a point to the second half of your post (not disagreeing but saying there is more weight to his comments)... that Adam didn't simply just help people understand MS's plans. he was responsible for a lot of damage which led to costing certain people their jobs and potential millions lost out due to bad PR. adam's actions were a whole lot more than just explaining MS stance....

aside from sites like MW and NeoGAF where people are pretty intelligent, most people are dumb, so all you need is to keep people from raising bad press and you can get away w/ murder when you're market leader...

take a look at apple. most intelligent pc people who know how to build a custom rig will think apple is a waste of money and will build custom pc tower with then money it will cost to by a mac.

but the general public follow perception and market leader, which i was pointing out with the 360.

i.e. apple is the market leader and they got a good public image. if you get apple "you're hip" until they do something stupid, they will continue to rip people off and pull wool over people's eyes. year after year.

MS being the market leader (just talking about gaming dept, (aside from MS Os business of windows 8/office suites) had the potential to pull wool over people's eyes. as the whole goal of the "once a day online check was to stop piracy and control used games sales." being market leader, MS potentially had the suave to get people to buy in... but since the general public is dumb they're also fickle and one wrong move and they'll shift allegiance. (we see this on MW w/ pre-orders people are so fickle when there is one little thing wrong with the yf-19...)

so Adam wasn't just stating/simplifying MS's plan, he maybe hugely responsible ( at the least, the initial starter of a huge forest fire), a big reason MS loses market leader status, leading to don mattrick getting fired/resigning and have their whole used game profit infrastructure blown up (billions of dollars and months of planning down the drain) over careless tweets to his friend.

another case in point how being market leader covers bad screwups and press:

currently on PS4, those without online service cannot use the PS4 bluray at launch out of the box...

no one is really going nuts over it or asking: what about the people in countries who don't have access to the internet, how can they activate their blu rays at launch? etc. etc. bc Sony's got positive press on their side they got some capital to work out their problems...

i believe with positive press MS could've overcame the issues of those who had non internet access issues. such as military personal and other the cases that were named (they're a billion dollar company, after all) similarly, sony has a crap solution for those who cannot activate the ps4 bluray player online. which is a hassle but nobody cares right now...

i think MS would've been ok, if:

adam shut his mouth. never tweeted.

second, after adam did, MS should've handled the damage control better and came up with a clear plan fast enough to address those who did not have internet access. but leadership failed and they needed to make a change on top.

now they're making the right moves... by doing a 180 immediately, all they have left to do is match the price point and they 'll at least just be a little behind Sony.

the only hang up why they can't price match the price point is they're still betting the 100 extra on on kinect and being the center of the living room (a cable box) as part of their profits. they're heavy at recruiting TV networks and want to pioneer getting revenue from networks and sponsors as well as the games. with strong command of networks they can potentially draw in more than just gamers...

it's very ambitions and they can't tank on those plans yet at this point bc they put so much money behind it... even though they may be still market leader, their public perception was damaged badly so this cable box thing is going to take a miracle to work. but since they invested millions into R&D for the voice command and tv show capabilities, they have to see where it goes before abandoning it.

My call is bc the pre-orders are still ok for the xbone, MS still thinks they can pull it off getting networks on board to the xbone to get that TV revenue. they're just trying now to fend off the bad press on this kinect always on privacy issues. bc it's essential to their TV plans to have kinect on... (even though the always on is gone, they're trying to find a way for people to use it)

Edited November 8, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[azrael]

Orth became the point-man to MS/Xbone's policies when he spoke out. If he didn't do it, Don Matrick would have only been pounded into submission more than he was.

Compounding the issue is that MS ignored months of customer backlash over the leaks that were coming out about the console, and only changed course when they realized PS4 pre-orders were dwarfing those of the Xbone. You can't ignore your user base, and you can't sour potential customers on your product before it even hits the shelves.

I'm still flabbergasted by how MS handled this.

MS's recent problems have been more of their own doing. MS has been reactionary some time now. They only changed when someone else made them look like fools and threatened their dominance. When they tried to look ahead, they ended up missing. They leaped before they look. They raced ahead only to trip on their shoelace. They made a change for change's sake, but never ask if things should change. And when they backpedal, people got confused and mad, followed by a "I don't want to deal with this." Given how MS has handled things in the past few years, Xbone's issues only followed the same script.

[Benson13]

One thing I'm going to disagree with David on. You're putting way to much emphasis on hardcore/well informed gamers being the primary purchaser of these systems. I think it's mostly uninformed parents/grandparents that are going to be purchasing a bulk of these units. They don't care or know nothing about what any of these policies really mean.

Hardcore gamers are pissed by all this stuff but most of the normal gamers I know don't even care while the casual gamers I know don't even know this is going on. The two primary reasons they have for buying a system is exclusive games or free online play. Most of them circumvent this by purchasing both systems.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

Orth became the point-man to MS/Xbone's policies when he spoke out. If he didn't do it, Don Matrick would have only been pounded into submission more than he was.

They raced ahead only to trip on their shoelace. They made a change for change's sake, but never ask if things should change.

And when they backpedal, people got confused and mad, followed by a "I don't want to deal with this." Given how MS has handled things in the past few years, Xbone's issues only followed the same script.

• it's easy to say Matrick would've been pounded regardless in hindsight bc he did get axed and people rejected the policy. but it's different circumstance when you're not being scapegoated, which he was unfairly.
• yeah MS did trip up but they didn't make changes for changes sake. There's a problem in the gaming industry and they tried to creatively solve it. the problem was publishers are losing profits bc of used games are being recycled at a loss to the developers and publishers. and for the longevity of game developer (which company's often fail and shut down bc of lack of sales or profits to coup developmental/marketing costs), they attempted to solve this issue for the next gen. That change is necessary... whether we see it in this generation or not. Sony 100% agrees. but compromises needs to be made in order for this to work, which in fact affects consumers freedom. and yes, they didn't handle it but adam messed it up, and don couldn't clean it up. Sony just totally undermined them. so Don was gone. but i respect them for trying to solve a problem for the game publishers even if it failed.
• I think, again, MS company made a lot of mistakes as whole but their games dept is separate from their Os software so it's unfair to bunch them together. purely from the gaming side, MS haven't made many mistakes. in fact, the biggest issue, the RROD engineering flaw, they overcame and fought off any bad PR. this DRM was their first mistake but they were going to bat for the developers/publishers. Sony was going to do the same but backed off and like cowards(capitalists) they jumped at the opportunity to exploit MS for trying to do what they wanted to do help publishers. (business politics).

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

aside from sites like MW and NeoGAF where people are pretty intelligent, most people are dumb, so all you need is to keep people from raising bad press and you can get away w/ murder when you're market leader...

take a look at apple. most intelligent pc people who know how to build a custom rig will think apple is a waste of money and will build custom pc tower with then money it will cost to by a mac.

One thing I'm going to disagree with David on. You're putting way to much emphasis on hardcore/well informed gamers being the primary purchaser of these systems. I think it's mostly uninformed parents/grandparents that are going to be purchasing a bulk of these units. They don't care or know nothing about what any of these policies really mean.

Hardcore gamers are pissed by all this stuff but most of the normal gamers I know don't even care while the casual gamers I know don't even know this is going on. The two primary reasons they have for buying a system is exclusive games or free online play. Most of them circumvent this by purchasing both systems.

but the general public follow perception and market leader, which i was pointing out with the 360.

i.e. apple is the market leader and they got a good public image. if you get apple "you're hip" until they do something stupid, they will continue to rip people off and pull wool over people's eyes. year after year.

MS being the market leader (just talking about gaming dept, (aside from MS Os business of windows 8/office suites) had the potential to pull wool over people's eyes. as the whole goal of the "once a day online check was to stop piracy and control used games sales." being market leader, MS potentially had the suave to get people to buy in... but since the general public is dumb they're also fickle and one wrong move and they'll shift allegiance.

i'm actually counting the general mass, gaming media as well as the hardcare gamer.

but your points are so true people don't know... so MS may win over the masses bc they currently have no DRM. like PS4, the only issue now is the price point... the general consumer will choose the cheaper of the two....

alright... i wrote enough.. i got it out of my system... thanks for conversing:)

Edited November 8, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[Duke Togo]

i'm actually counting the general mass, gaming media as well as the hardcare gamer.

but your points are so true people don't know... so MS may win over the masses bc they currently have no DRM. like PS4, the only issue now is the price point... the general consumer will choose the cheaper of the two....

alright... i wrote enough.. i got it out of my system... thanks for conversing:)

It's more than just price point; as we're clearly seeing now, the Xbone has resource issues due to system overhead, and it impacts the performance of cross-platform games. There is also the issue of extra service costs with the Xbone, which you don't have to pay on the PS4. How do they justify charging an extra monthly fee to be able to watch Netflix (which you already are paying for)? And then you have to worry about what they will impose on the system in the future. Terms of use can and will change.

One word on price point: they're charging an extra $100 for a device that none of my 360-owning friends like or use. Their insistance on forcing Kinect on customers is not all that dissimilar to the way they have tried to force Windows 8 users to buy touch screens to effectively use their OS (the difference being that they don't profit from monitor sales).

Edited November 8, 2013 by Duke Togo

[Duke Togo]

• Sony was going to do the same but backed off and like cowards(capitalists) they jumped at the opportunity to exploit MS for trying to do what they wanted to do help publishers. (business politics).

I've seen no evidence that they actually ever seriously considered it.

Edit: wouldn't surprise me if publishers made use of technology on the system to impose their own DRM.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Duke Togo

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

I've seen no evidence that they actually ever seriously considered it.

Edit: wouldn't surprise me if publishers made use of technology on the system to impose their own DRM.

yeah, there's no direct evidence that will hurt Sony as they claimed they never considered it publicly. it's all rumors w/ nothing confirmed but the flipside is these were the same rumors that outed MS having DRM...

p;us we know Sony experimented w/ the psp go not just to combat piracy but also potentially forego used games re-sales.

here's the NeoGAF post from 01/03/2013:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506560

Sony denies it was related to PS4 (Sony, then what was it for???) lol

[Duke Togo]

The patent filing? Yeah, I remember that. Again, It wouldn't surprise me if a system was in place that allowed publishers to choose to enable their own DRM (and thus facing the wrath of gamers on an individual basis).

I am curious: does anyone view the day-0 PS4 patch (and the limitations without it) as anything other than a deterrent to improper unit sales before the actual street date?

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

i think someone was guessing it was a workaround for certain countries/regions for the use of the blu ray player. (similar to pc software that require users to select a region to use blu-ray/dvd players for activation) there is some BS red tape sony had to get through to sell the PS4 so this was their lazy solution. (obviously speculation)

Edited November 8, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[azrael]

I am curious: does anyone view the day-0 PS4 patch (and the limitations without it) as anything other than a deterrent to improper unit sales before the actual street date?

The realist in me says "You're damn right." Can't be any worst than Xbone's day-1 patch: Xbox One practically unusable without day one update

Does anything just work out of the box anymore?

[Duke Togo]

The realist in me says "You're damn right." Can't be any worst than Xbone's day-1 patch: Xbox One practically unusable without day one update

Does anything just work out of the box anymore?

Speaking at GDC Next, a summit for game developers interested in using Microsoft’s Xbox Live cloud for off-site compute, Xbox Live lead program manager John Bruno said that the service was only 18 months old as of 5 November 2013, and still had issues with game updates and Xbox One clients.

“Once in a while, rather frequently actually, the host OS will require an update, meaning the physical machine is going to get rebooted whether your code is running or not,” he explained. “That’s a problematic thing for a game, and oftentimes it’s in the middle of a multiplayer session. We’ve worked very hard to overcome that, but that’s not to say it’s going to be a reality in every case.”

We've all heard the statements from game devs about ongoing driver and performance issues (along with resource problems due to system overhead). And i'm sure many of us have heard the rumors about Xbone's cloud servers not being ready for launch, either (granted, these are just rumors). The more I hear, the more I buy into the rumor that MS was blindsided by Sony's early reveal of the PS4, and have been struggling to get it ready to go sooner than expected.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Duke Togo

[mecha2241]

Appeantly the voice command doesn't work all that great either.

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/11/08/xbox-can-hear-me-now-xbox/?intcmp=trending

[anime52k8]

Is this thread getting all shitty again?

Edited November 8, 2013 by anime52k8

[azrael]

Is this thread getting all shitty again?

Sorry, it's almost release time for 2 new consoles. Expect turbulence.

[Guest davidwhangchoi]

Is this thread getting all shitty again?

again? was the thread crappy before? please specify

i posted unusually at length last night in quite a while with some strong opinions. it was re: the MS guy adam guy getting flamed and about the significance of his involvement. though duke and david commented harmlessly on a post which needed revision. i countered with a long drawn out post bc i'm into the gaming industry. yes, i feel strongly about where it's heading. we moved on from it and the topic has moved on to the xbone and ps4 launch...

but reading your post that doesn't add anything videogame related...aren't you fulfilling your own post?

sorry, didn't see azrael already responded. please excuse me....

Edited November 8, 2013 by davidwhangchoi

[Duke Togo]

Sorry, it's almost release time for 2 new consoles. Expect turbulence.

I dunno, I thought we've been pretty civil and engaging.

[anime52k8]

I like talking about video games in the video game thread. What games were playing, what games we're looking forward too, asking for advice/tips on difficult missions and sharing amusing gameplay stories. all this talk about corporate politics and this console is better than that console is depressing and makes me not want to have anything to do with future gaming. it's not the tone, it's the subject matter really.

[azrael]

I like talking about video games in the video game thread. What games were playing, what games we're looking forward too, asking for advice/tips on difficult missions and sharing amusing gameplay stories. all this talk about corporate politics and this console is better than that console is depressing and makes me not want to have anything to do with future gaming. it's not the tone, it's the subject matter really.

Well, to play some of these new games, we need the new consoles. Hence, we're talking about the equipment we need to play these new games on. And while this thread also includes PC gaming, some of the games we're looking forward to aren't out yet or like me, haven't played very much of the games that are out, hence the lack of discussion on that front. Don't worry, we'll be back to gaming talk soon.

[Duke Togo]

Yeah, we get new consoles, what, every 7 years?