The Transformers Thread (licensed) Next

[David Hingtgen]

I want to say they forgot to draw the dividing line, for the front cockpit windows, in that frame. 

Pointy nose----is that from Call of the Primitives?

Of course an example can be found in the toon for everything.  Doesn't mean one should ignore 95% of a character's animated frames in favor of "that one scene where it's off-model".  (which Takara loves to do!)

[mikeszekely]

6 minutes ago, David Hingtgen said:

Pointy nose----is that from Call of the Primitives?

That screenshot might be; I just Googled "G1 Sky Lynx" and looked at the screenshots that came up.  But AFAIK this is the Sunbow model, and his nose still looks pointy and has nostrils (but magically gets rounder with three thrusters for shuttle mode, and the Autobot insignia magically shifts from behind the cockpit to in front of it).

As for the window, assuming the line down the middle of his nose is actually centered, well, there's no line on the window above it.  But, as he's largely in profile, I wouldn't say it's definitive, so we've got nothing to go on but the cartoon.  And no, most of these are definitely not Call of the Primitives.

So yeah, the cartoon is inconsistent and often poorly animated.  I agree with you, it shouldn't be the be-all and end-all arbiter of how a modern Transformers toy should look, and I too would prefer more realistic shuttle details including his eye windows and nose shape.  All I'm saying is that five (or even three, at least once) windowed, pointy nose Sky Lynx is not without precedent so I can't fault the new toy for it.

[JB0]

17 minutes ago, mikeszekely said:

his nose still looks pointy and has nostrils (but magically gets rounder with three thrusters for shuttle mode, and the Autobot insignia magically shifts from behind the cockpit to in front of it).

Transformers in a nutshell, right there.

[M'Kyuun]

Logically, one would think a toy company would instantly discount a poorly animated show from the Eighties due to its gross inconsistencies and errors throughout, and instead produce official base models to work from for the sake of consistency.  Guess Takara, and Hasbro by extension, haven't figured that out yet. I wish they'd get over their toon centric kick, at least in the MP line. I dig all the detail they're putting into the WFC line.  Nice to know they still know how.

 

[David Hingtgen]

No, the issue is that a large part of the fandom clearly does want EXACT replicas of the toon, every error and detail-barren limb copied in plastic.  HasTak is giving it to them, at least in the MP line.  

[M'Kyuun]

Indeed. I don't get it.

[Sildani]

They want to play with the cartoon. 

[Tking22]

2 hours ago, Sildani said:

They want to play with the cartoon. 

It's this. 

I get that perspective, really, really bringing the toon to life, being able to pick it up and move and transform it, it's just not something I've ever had an interest in.

Watching the cartoon as a kid I knew the cartoon was crappy looking, my parents mentioned it often enough, a lot of cartoons were crappy looking, in my mind they obviously looked "real" in real life. Clean lines, clean logos and paint, they looked like real cars in vehicle mode, with all that real detail sprinkled throughout their G1 cartoon silhouette. I never wanted toys that looked like the cartoon as a kid or now, I wanted and like them to look how they would have looked in real life.

I know a lot of folks are tired of this opinion, but I liked the Hasui stuff better, aesthetically both modes were pretty much exactly what I wanted out of a Masterpiece G1 toy. If Takara kept that style going with all of their modern techniques and engineering, I'd have purchased far less third party and I'd be far more interested in new MP news and announcements. I think Inferno did it in for me, it was just so, so plain in both modes, vehicle in particular hurt my soul, it was chrome free firetruck, save bumper.

[M'Kyuun]

2 hours ago, Tking22 said:

It's this. 

I get that perspective, really, really bringing the toon to life, being able to pick it up and move and transform it, it's just not something I've ever had an interest in.

Watching the cartoon as a kid I knew the cartoon was crappy looking, my parents mentioned it often enough, a lot of cartoons were crappy looking, in my mind they obviously looked "real" in real life. Clean lines, clean logos and paint, they looked like real cars in vehicle mode, with all that real detail sprinkled throughout their G1 cartoon silhouette. I never wanted toys that looked like the cartoon as a kid or now, I wanted and like them to look how they would have looked in real life.

I know a lot of folks are tired of this opinion, but I liked the Hasui stuff better, aesthetically both modes were pretty much exactly what I wanted out of a Masterpiece G1 toy. If Takara kept that style going with all of their modern techniques and engineering, I'd have purchased far less third party and I'd be far more interested in new MP news and announcements. I think Inferno did it in for me, it was just so, so plain in both modes, vehicle in particular hurt my soul, it was chrome free firetruck, save bumper.

I never wanted my figs to look like they did in the cartoon, per se; rather, I wanted them to have the articulation, first and foremost, and maybe share some of the idealized anthropomorphism while keeping all the real world elements of their alt modes, as well as other molded details in their bot modes. I think that's the look Hasui-san was aiming to capture when he was running the line, and I was good with it.  In the toon, the bots were always drawn misshapenly, disproportionately, inconsistently, plainly, and often with all sorts of other errors that make using those images as a basis for a premium line a terrible idea, and it amazes me how many people embrace it.  

I believe the last G1 MP I bought was Sunstreaker. Since then, every subsequent release has had elements of its design that I just didn't care for, and I've turned to third party to get figs much closer to what I want in the MP line. The CAD for Starscream isn't alleviating my disenchantment with Takara's design philosophy, and I'm hoping Maketoys will rerelease Meteor and Lightning. I just have a feeling that MP V3 Screamer is going to be $200+ of disappointment.

[mikeszekely]

I've said before, but I might as well say again since this is the discussion we're having, but I think we've all come to expect some level of cartoon accuracy.  We want the wheels on Prime's legs hidden, we want him to have blue eyes, we want Megatron's gun barrel on his back and not his hip, we want Bumblebee, Brawn, Windcharger, and Gears to have faces, we want Brawn and Huffer to have hands, we want Ironhide and Ratchet's shoulders to be at the top of their window chests with actual heads above them, etc.  But I think a lot of us, myself included, want cartoon-accurate-but-realistic.  We want toys that look like they could be the real robots the cartoon was based on, like the Hasui MPs.  But the market at large seems to be pushing for 3D animation cells.  I'm not saying that we have to like it.  I'm not telling David or anyone else that they should buy something like Sky Lynx of real-world alt mode inaccuracies bother him.  But I am suggesting we might be a minority now, and we shouldn't be surprised when HasTak incorporates design elements we don't like but are absolutely a Sunbow feature.

Anyway, I caught this today.

I could be interpreting this wrong, but it sure sounds like for the next five Tuesdays starting tomorrow they're going to be announcing yet more store-exclusive figures in a misguided attempt to give the fans the G1-style Earthrise figures they still want while simultaneously rushing us into Kingdom.  So, yay, more stress I didn't need... this is 2020 in a nutshell, though.  Not sure what all they could reveal yet, but I'd guess that Earthrise-style Bluestreak and Ratchet are likely, and maybe Thrust.  And of course I'll be super mad if I can't get a hold of any of them.  It'd be cool if a Siege Sunstorm and/or Nacelle were one of them (but please not the Earthrise mold... that'll just make me want at minimum Acid Storm, Red Wing, and Hotlink, too.

[M'Kyuun]

I hope it's not more exclusives; I still haven't been able to get the Target Seeker two-pack, or ER Soundwave from Walmart. I set up to receive notifications of availability, and I've heard nary a peep from either retailer. It irritates me to no end that these are main characters, rather than side characters.  Anyway, I'm hoping once September comes, which seems to be the street date for Target, maybe availability will improve.

Thanks for posting that, Mike. I'll have to see if I can catch 'em when they broadcast.

 

So I watched the review of ER Ironhide and Prowl. Pretty egregious use of parts-forming for Ironhide; it's not as bad as Arcee, but the entire roof, along with side front windows, pops off to become a giant riot shield that I somehow don't recall ever being a salient feature of IH's character, like ever.  As another poster, either here or on the TFW boards mentioned (IDR), I'd rather they'd at least made an effort to turn that into his battle sled, a la the G1 toy. As Prime vs Prime said in his review, ER Ironhide would have been better served with his own mold, rather than this clumsy reuse of the Siege mold. I guess HasTak have just given up on putting effort into these things and parts-forming is ever more the way forward. Making weapons parts form is one thing, but whole chunks of vehicle is just unacceptable. What if you lose one of those chunks?; You can never transform your figure again completely. It's anathema to the point of these toys. It's already a chore to even try and find Transformers anymore, be it online or in stores. They complicate the scarcity and the benefit to scalpers with their exclusivity shenanigans, thus eroding the joy of trying to complete a collection. Once they give up on the transformations altogether and just make them all shell formers like Arcee, I think I'll call it quits on Hasbro. Hopefully third party will rise to the occasion.

[tekering]

9 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

Making weapons parts form is one thing, but whole chunks of vehicle is just unacceptable. What if you lose one of those chunks?; You can never transform your figure again completely. 

What could be more G1-accurate than that?  

[M'Kyuun]

1 hour ago, tekering said:

What could be more G1-accurate than that?  

Well, you're not wrong.  I didn't care for it back then either, but b/c I didn't know anything different, I was was far more accepting. And, it's not like we really had anything much better to compare to. I think we were spoiled throughout the early to mid 2000s, as most TF toys in the mainline had 'perfect transformation'. Articulation was usually dicey, though. I'm not sure why there has to be a tradeoff. If anything, we should see an evolution in design moving away from all the 'undesirable' traits of toy design in the past. I think they call it 'progress'.  That would be my goal as a designer; to eschew and improve upon what has already been done. As someone who has been a fan of toys, transforming robots in particular, I would always be trying to create the ideal versions of these things. I've tried to do so with my LEGO Macross MOCs. My VF-4 has shoulder rotation and some limited butterfly motion at the shoulder because it makes no sense to me to have the shoulders stationary on a combat machine. It also has waist rotation.. My VB-6 has waist rotation and ankle tilts, as well as retractable gear in shuttle mode. In short, I tried to impart a few little improvements that never appeared on the official toys. That's the sort of progress I'd like to see in the main line. But, Hasbro's all about 'budget first', whereas Takara seemed to try to make the best toy they could and consider pricing afterwards. But Hasbro's in the driver's seat these days, with a firm hand on the franchise. Don't get me wrong, I think the majority of the WFC has been pretty good, even back to TR and PotP. We got a lot of G1 love from these lines, and I'm extremely grateful. But stuff like ER Arcee and Ironhide, and even Cliffjumper/Bee just shouldn't happen these days with all the advancements. It's jarring when you put Arcee next to Sideswipe, Wheeljack, or the Datsun Bros. It's like two different companies designed them- one that's competent, and one that's not. Anyway, I've ranted about this too much. It's obviously the direction they're taking, sadly, with more frequency. I'll take what enjoyment I can.

[mikeszekely]

Well, the first reveal was pretty painless... Airwave repainted as Hot House. A repaint of a toy I don't care much about into a toy I care even less about.

[lechuck]

On 8/9/2020 at 7:00 PM, M'Kyuun said:

Logically, one would think a toy company would instantly discount a poorly animated show from the Eighties due to its gross inconsistencies and errors throughout, and instead produce official base models to work from for the sake of consistency.  Guess Takara, and Hasbro by extension, haven't figured that out yet. I wish they'd get over their toon centric kick, at least in the MP line. I dig all the detail they're putting into the WFC line.  Nice to know they still know how.

I'm pretty sure this is what Takara does, just a page back there is line drawings for Starscream or remember that previewed colour drawing of Optimus for MP-44. Takara knows just as much as we do that the G1 cartoon holds crap for consistency, so they are making base template designs for near as possible cartoon resemblance (there is no EXACT). Lets not pretend Takara are a bunch of amateurs using random cartoon still frames for their designs.

Ironically with Netflix Transformers the Hasbro/Takara base design logic has just been practised in reverse with all those original retail toy compromises and shortcuts ending up in "glorious" CG animation. Needles to say the approach has not been universally embraced.

14 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

I never wanted my figs to look like they did in the cartoon, per se; rather, I wanted them to have the articulation, first and foremost, and maybe share some of the idealized anthropomorphism while keeping all the real world elements of their alt modes, as well as other molded details in their bot modes. I think that's the look Hasui-san was aiming to capture when he was running the line, and I was good with it.  In the toon, the bots were always drawn misshapenly, disproportionately, inconsistently, plainly, and often with all sorts of other errors that make using those images as a basis for a premium line a terrible idea, and it amazes me how many people embrace it.  

Personally I think the hybrid style interfered too much with the earlier MP robot appearance and proportions, but arguing aesthetics is moot.

What does irritate me with this type of discussion though, is the undertone amongst Transfans (intentionally or not) that those that might prefer a closer on-screen approximation are considered morons for entertaining Takara's offerings. I fail to understand why it is an issue or what exactly is baffling and wack about some fans preferring the original cartoon design? It's no different than people wanting their YF-21 being paper thin in fighter and dynamic looking in Battroid mode, insisting there be no collar on a VF-1, and landing gear being white etc. etc. ... And the reasons are exactly the same, it was portrayed that way in the anime (or lineart), but here we don't have fans being alienated as "stupid" for wanting such things in a toy.

[tekering]

11 minutes ago, lechuck said:

What does irritate me with this type of discussion though, is the undertone amongst Transfans (intentionally or not) that those that might prefer a closer on-screen approximation are considered morons for entertaining Takara's offerings.

I have no problem with TakaraTomy trying to reproduce the Sunbow designs as closely as possible, nor do I condescend to those who buy them.

What I take objection to is another Masterpiece Bumblebee, a third Masterpiece Optimus, or a fourth Masterpiece Starscream, when prominent characters like Mirage, Cliffjumper, Jazz, Skyfire, Trailbreaker, Gears, Brawn, Hoist, Windcharger, Huffer, Blaster, Perceptor, Seaspray, Warpath, Cosmos, Powerglide, Beachcomber, Reflector, the Insecticons, every combiner team member, every third-season Decepticon, most third-season Autobots, every single triple-changer, and every Dinobot (but one) have yet to get a Masterpiece figure.

Is it any wonder the third-party scene has lasted over a decade now?  

[technoblue]

I'm a fan of the MP+ releases which lean toward the toy aesthetics. If Takara were to release a yellow-eyed Prime with all those iconic toy stickers done up as Tampo prints, similar to what they did with Megatron's MP-36+ release, I would be all over it. I also understand that it would probably be an exclusive release with an exclusive price, whether it used the older MP-10 or newer MP-44 mold.

Still, I find myself truly excited by the idea of a new Starscream mold, even given @tekering's fair points above about other missing figures that deserve priority. I can't help but want to see those prototype shots. The idea that Takara is using the old cartoon (or the animated movie) as their source doesn't bother me at all either. Don't get me wrong, though, I would love for Takara to give us a repaint of Starscream in Diaclone and/or Toy colours. As with Prime, though, I expect it would come at a cost.

Moving away from Masterpiece and back to Earthrise, Hasbro lost me on the Modulator gimmick. Beyond that, though, I do find that my excitement for the mainline is also cooling down. Oh well, it is what it is. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by technoblue

[Chronocidal]

1 hour ago, lechuck said:

What does irritate me with this type of discussion though, is the undertone amongst Transfans (intentionally or not) that those that might prefer a closer on-screen approximation are considered morons for entertaining Takara's offerings. I fail to understand why it is an issue or what exactly is baffling and wack about some fans preferring the original cartoon design? It's no different than people wanting their YF-21 being paper thin in fighter and dynamic looking in Battroid mode, insisting there be no collar on a VF-1, and landing gear being white etc. etc. ... And the reasons are exactly the same, it was portrayed that way in the anime (or lineart), but here we don't have fans being alienated as "stupid" for wanting such things in a toy.

I think part of the difference between the Transformers and Macross communities might just be that the Transformers franchise includes a portion of the fanbase that Macross mostly doesn't have: people who are invested in the mecha as characters.  Not to say that we don't have people who love dynamic battroids with great posing ability, and what one could maybe consider "personality," but we're mostly aware that valks are manufactured mechanical objects.

Take a look around Macross World, and you will find yourself predominantly neck deep in mecha and aircraft fanatics.  We like planes, and mechs, and planes that turn into mechs.  It's pretty simple, and for certain people (myself in particular), the mechanical aspects of transformation are just fascinating, and we love seeing physically possible mechanisms in action.

Transformers on the other hand?  Yes, you're still going to have the people who want physically detailed transformations of realistic-looking vehicles, but you're also going to have people who are invested in the individual characters in the show, and want to have something that imitates their presence.  Mechanical detail and possibility may take a backseat to dynamic posing, expressive articulation, and just pure character-driven nostalgia.  They don't want a car with accurate styling, they want a statue of their favorite character that just happens to transform into a fair representation of the vehicle they turned into in the cartoon, possibly going so far as to want a caricature of a famous vehicle design because that's what they saw on screen.  Character nostalgia may be more important than mechanical detail and accuracy.

There's nothing wrong with wanting either, but trying to accomplish both gets very hard, and sometimes impossible, if some character-driven detail or feature directly contradicts a real life detail someone wants to see.

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Chronocidal

[M'Kyuun]

2 hours ago, lechuck said:

I'm pretty sure this is what Takara does, just a page back there is line drawings for Starscream or remember that previewed colour drawing of Optimus for MP-44. Takara knows just as much as we do that the G1 cartoon holds crap for consistency, so they are making base template designs for near as possible cartoon resemblance (there is no EXACT). Lets not pretend Takara are a bunch of amateurs using random cartoon still frames for their designs.I

Rather than the specific CAD drawings for the MP figs, what I meant was that Hasbro and Takara-Tomy should have generalized pieces of art of each of the characters as references for pretty much all their toys. Perhaps they do. IDK. Then again, with each iteration of the characters, I suppose generalized art needs to be created. I don't believe Takara bases an entire design on cartoon stills, but I definitely believe they reference them to try and nail the toon look.

2 hours ago, lechuck said:

What does irritate me with this type of discussion though, is the undertone amongst Transfans (intentionally or not) that those that might prefer a closer on-screen approximation are considered morons for entertaining Takara's offerings. I fail to understand why it is an issue or what exactly is baffling and wack about some fans preferring the original cartoon design? It's no different than people wanting their YF-21 being paper thin in fighter and dynamic looking in Battroid mode, insisting there be no collar on a VF-1, and landing gear being white etc. etc. ... And the reasons are exactly the same, it was portrayed that way in the anime (or lineart), but here we don't have fans being alienated as "stupid" for wanting such things in a toy.

I suppose I may have come across as harsh or condescending. It wasn't my intention, but rereading my comments hours after I posted them, I cede the point and apologize. Transformers is my second favorite hobby, and I maintain long-nurtured biases. Believe it, or don't, but I generally strive to maintain a positive outlook when I post. Too many things that strike me as negatives within the hobby are happening currently, and I let my emotions color my commentary. Again, I meant no offense. I certainly don't consider fans that like the current MP aesthetic "morons"; it's not to my taste, but there are certainly many who do like it, and that's their prerogative. I'm just glad that third parties afford us other options.

I'm a battroid guy, so I don't mind a chubby fighter if the YF-21's B-mode looks close to the lineart, which is admittedly, replete with concessions. A little hypocritical, I know, but there it is.  And landing gear on most valks should be white, as the majority are inspired by American military jets, and that's the standard. As for VF-1 collars, I got nothin'.

[Jeremy007]

I love the current MP aesthetic. Having super posable, transforming toys that look like the original show is a dream come true. 
 

What is surprising to me is every time Takara announces a new show accurate MP, the anti-show accurate crowd act shocked that Takara is doing it.  Every release since Inferno its been “nope. Looks too much like the show...why is Takara doing this when I don't like it”.  Which is fine. They don’t have to like it, but don’t be shocked when each one is clearly following a pattern and looks like the show. 
 

Then the next one is shown and they are angry again. “Why is Takara doing this. I can’t believe they are still going for toon accuracy”.  Clearly Takara has a plan. They have been doing it like this for several years. 
 

Then the next one is shown and the detractors are still shocked it looks the way it does. 

[JB0]

9 hours ago, lechuck said:

I fail to understand why it is an issue or what exactly is baffling and wack about some fans preferring the original cartoon design? It's no different than people wanting their YF-21 being paper thin in fighter and dynamic looking in Battroid mode, insisting there be no collar on a VF-1, and landing gear being white etc. etc. ... And the reasons are exactly the same, it was portrayed that way in the anime (or lineart), but here we don't have fans being alienated as "stupid" for wanting such things in a toy.

Ultimately, I think the anger is mostly from people who liked the older style MP toys. Look at it from their perspective. They have been cast aside in recent years, despite being the ones that proved this line could be a success as a line instead of just "that one really cool Optimus Prime toy". Everyone else that wanted more detail has moved on to the unlicensed toys or the War For Cybertron line, depending on their priorities.

 

There actually IS a difference between folks complaining about Macross and folks complaining about Transformers, though. In the case of Macross, the toys are imperfect realizations of the original design, which was created for animation first. In the case of Transformers, the cartoons are imperfect realizations of the original design, which was created for toy shelves first.

Also, well, the character models for the cartoon are SO different in some cases that it is more like a completely different character that just happens to share a name.

 

Personally, I like the extra detail and random bits of car hanging off the robot from the original toy designs. The simplified animation designs to me are ... well, they're ugly, but they also deny the essence of the line by no longer looking like they can turn into the thing that they turn into(Optimus Prime's got no wheels, but turns into a truck with six of 'em!). But I'm not judging Takara for pursuing the toon-accurate-or-bust market. It is clearly where the most money is, even if it isn't where MY money is.

I AM judging them for turning some utterly insane engineering out in the process, though. The recent MP toys have been a case study in how NOT to make a transforming robot.

Edited August 12, 2020 by JB0

[M'Kyuun]

17 minutes ago, JB0 said:

Ultimately, I think the anger is mostly from people who liked the older style MP toys. Look at it from their perspective. They have been cast aside in recent years, despite being the ones that proved this line could be a success as a line instead of just "that one really cool Optimus Prime toy". Everyone else that wanted more detail has moved on to the unlicensed toys or the War For Cybertron line, depending on their priorities.

 

There actually IS a difference between folks complaining about Macross and folks complaining about Transformers, though. In the case of Macross, the toys are imperfect realizations of the original design, which was created for animation first. In the case of Transformers, the cartoons are imperfect realizations of the original design, which was created for toy shelves first.

Also, well, the character models for the cartoon are SO different in some cases that it is more like a completely different character that just happens to share a name.

 

Personally, I like the extra detail and random bits of car hanging off the robot from the original toy designs. The simplified animation designs to me are ... well, they're ugly, but they also deny the essence of the line by no longer looking like they can turn into the thing that they turn into(Optimus Prime's got no wheels, but turns into a truck with six of 'em!). But I'm not judging Takara for pursuing the toon-accurate-or-bust market. It is clearly where the most money is, even if it isn't where MY money is.

I AM judging them for turning some utterly insane engineering out in the process, though. The recent MP toys have been a case study in how NOT to make a transforming robot.

In the case of Ironhide/Ratchet, I'll let the toon versions slide- so much better than the toys. What was Kawamori thinking?

But, as far as a greater marriage of alt mode with bot mode, I'm there with you.  I will say, however, I have Magic Square's Light of Freedom, and I love how they tuck the wheels away seamlessly in the legs. The overall design takes any number of cues from MP-10, but improves upon that design, IMHO, in various ways. It captures the toon look, but  still has a satisfying level of detail in bot mode. I'm really happy with it. 

I've been passing on Takara's MP figs since Sunstreaker, as there were things about them, beyond just the toon aesthetic, that I didn't care for.  Between the feet and the huge backpack, V2 Bee looked terrible to me. I wasn't a fan of Hound's floating head ( I realize Jeep made them resort to it, but I wasn't crazy about it). Arcee's odd shaped chest and disorganized backpack, like v2 Bee's, just detract from what is an otherwise decent looking figure. Regardless, I think MMC did a much better job on the bot mode, while still giving Azalea a passable vehicle mode. Since I favor the bot mode, the Takara was an easy pass.

The engineering has become very complex with these latest figs. That's not a bad thing if there's a logical flow to the transformation and everything proceeds smoothly from one step to another. When it becomes an effort to transform the toy, or there are extremely fragile bits that will break with the slightest misstep, then a lot of the fun is eroded, since the transformation is a large part of why many of us are into these toys. Too, Takara has to introduce many more concessions into the engineering for the sake of converting a realistic, often licensed alt mode into a plain bot that resembles the cartoon. These concessions are often the reason behind faux parts, shell-forming, or just a lot of panel-forming to try and hide all the vehicle detail. That's part of the reason I liked the original approach to MP; many of those engineering concessions were unnecessary. Alas

2 hours ago, Jeremy007 said:

I love the current MP aesthetic. Having super posable, transforming toys that look like the original show is a dream come true. 

Despite my contrary view, I'm happy for you, and all the other fans who've longed to have toys that looked like they stepped off the screen. I get it; it's just not for me. MP Prowl, designed by Hasui-san (I believe it was his favorite character, hence his extensive work on the design), was and is my dream Transformer toy.  G1 Prowl was my first Transformer back in '84, and MP Prowl was the culmination of 30 years of hopes and wishes for a modern update.

2 hours ago, Jeremy007 said:

What is surprising to me is every time Takara announces a new show accurate MP, the anti-show accurate crowd act shocked that Takara is doing it.   

My reaction isn't so much shock as dismay.  However, I'm resigned that this is the direction for the foreseeable future. I'm still willing to give each release the benefit of the doubt. I'm curious to see the new Seeker mold, even if my expectations are a little grim. Regardless, I'm still hoping that more of the first season roster gets an official MP figure. I'll judge each on its own merits as to whether it appeals to me or not. At the very least, I hope they can reach some sort of agreement with Porche so we can finally get Jazz in this line.

[JB0]

13 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

In the case of Ironhide/Ratchet, I'll let the toon versions slide- so much better than the toys. What was Kawamori thinking?

Probably that it'd look pretty okay once the pilot was in the seat. Moreso than most of the line, that mold really shows they were designed to be piloted robots.

[Dobber]

I’m with M’kyuun and JBO. What I don’t understand is with today’s engineering abilities, why can they not please both crowds....to a point. My personal issue is when the alt mod suffers. Make a good looking toon bot but still transform into a good looking alt mode. 
 

Chris
 

 

[M'Kyuun]

Thus far I haven't had any issues with the alt modes, save maybe Megatron. Due to all the origami in his upper torso, the gun looks like a puzzle, and the upper torso doesn't have the proper shape of the gun slide. The third party versions all retained it. Heck, even my New Age Megatron has a properly shaped upper torso. To me, that has always been an iconic part of his look, and it was spoiled due to to the way Takara engineered it. I appreciate the extra bit of butterfly articulation at the shoulders, but I almost think I'd rather have the nice rounded upper torso. The legs on that figure are brilliant, though. Back to Dobber's statement, I think the alt modes have been done well, but I'm not a car guy, so my eye for little details specific to each make and model is lacking. Now, Starscream will be a different story. If things are off with his F-15 mode, I'm more apt to notice. From the CAD, his design is one of those that I wish paid homage to the toy design at least so far as including the shin thrusters, which, to me, are again, iconic to the look of the Seekers. I'm not at all a fan of the flat trapezoidal panels they used instead. It would be nice if they included optional shin thrusters so you can have either look, depending on your preference. I'm also not feeling the back plate extending below his crotch. The Seeker is a pretty clean and simple design; the arm transformation is the greatest departure from the original toy, and getting them to tuck in cleanly while maintaining proper fuselage shaping is the biggest challenge. At this point, it's been done about the same way officially and unofficially for over a decade, so there's good precedent (Takara were first to the solution with both the Classics Seeker and with MP3; it works, and everybody else has pretty much followed the formula with little changes here and there. As the old adage goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it). I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't need Saturn V levels of engineering. I'm still a fan of the Maketoys design, and the New Age Seeker is just a brilliant toy. If we're interpreting the CAD correctly, I don't feel that the wings need to split apart, or why the stabs can't somehow fold into the legs. All those additional moving parts on a large structural piece are concerning, as issues from alignment to stressed pivots/joints can be potential problem areas as time goes on. To my way of thinking, it's an unnecessary bit of engineering. I guess we'll see once they roll out a proto.

 

Going OT, I watched Prime vs Prime's review of ER Bumblebee, a heavy remold of Cliffjumper. While it retains the partsforming aspect for the rear of the car, the VW Beetle mode is a thing of beauty. At first glance, it looks like V1 MP Bee. The entire car is painted in a metallic yellow, with trans-blue windows that are unobstructed by robot kibble. Moreover, the back window is an insert, rather than a single trans-blue piece with yellow paint. as a result, everything looks very uniform, at least on PvP's version. The bot modes share virtually all the same parts, except, of course, for the heads. As remolds go, it looks really good.  I hope it's not another exclusive.

I'd like to know who PvP's supplier is- guy gets everything early. I'm jelly.

[Chronocidal]

2 hours ago, M'Kyuun said:

...Now, Starscream will be a different story. If things are off with his F-15 mode, I'm more apt to notice. From the CAD, his design is one of those that I wish paid homage to the toy design at least so far as including the shin thrusters, which, to me, are again, iconic to the look of the Seekers. I'm not at all a fan of the flat trapezoidal panels they used instead. It would be nice if they included optional shin thrusters so you can have either look, depending on your preference. I'm also not feeling the back plate extending below his crotch. The Seeker is a pretty clean and simple design; the arm transformation is the greatest departure from the original toy, and getting them to tuck in cleanly while maintaining proper fuselage shaping is the biggest challenge. At this point, it's been done about the same way officially and unofficially for over a decade, so there's good precedent (Takara were first to the solution with both the Classics Seeker and with MP3; it works, and everybody else has pretty much followed the formula with little changes here and there. As the old adage goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it). I guess what I'm saying is, it doesn't need Saturn V levels of engineering. I'm still a fan of the Maketoys design, and the New Age Seeker is just a brilliant toy. If we're interpreting the CAD correctly, I don't feel that the wings need to split apart, or why the stabs can't somehow fold into the legs. All those additional moving parts on a large structural piece are concerning, as issues from alignment to stressed pivots/joints can be potential problem areas as time goes on. To my way of thinking, it's an unnecessary bit of engineering. I guess we'll see once they roll out a proto.

Going to just go out and say it, I -hate- having giant flappy hinges in the wings/tails on seekers, or even worse, requiring them to fold over at the root with no locking mechanism.  Like, at the very least, could they try and make the hinge disappear from the top, rather than making the whole hinge visible on the surface?

I know why Maketoys made them fold that way, but what it also led to was a flood of photos of their Seeker mold with tails and stabs splayed at any number of cockeyed angles, which is a serious eyesore to someone who actually likes the look of the F-15.  I'm left wondering if the photographer just didn't make the effort, or if the hinges literally will not stay in place.

I think what they're going for with the new Seeker mold is trying to fold up the stabs and tails like the smaller DX9 mold did, but instead of leaving them hanging, they're trying to hide them inside the main wing.. which.. ok, I give them credit, that's ingenious, but I'm not sure whether the giant honking thick wings resulting from that choice will look better or worse than just folding the tails and stabs flat behind the wing.  

Either way, the canopy on the chest is either completely fake, or will make the F-15 ducking fugly.  Won't really know until we see alt mode diagrams, or prototype pics.

[Dobber]

As much as I like the Make Toys Seeker mold the did leave the “Boobs” hanging down in fighter mode which is a real shame. The fist 2 MP molds really did a great job with that. If they could just learn from each other we could potentially have an amazing toy for both molds. As it is from what we’ve seen from the CAD’s and can see in the silhouette neither looks promising. For those that want an accurate bot...how is having a bulky backpack and split wings accurate? So you get nice clean legs but sacrifice the visually dominant wings and torso? The fighter silhouette looks like it has a lot of junk hanging underneath too which would be a step back from the originals plus it MAY have some ridiculous hinge on the leading edge. Still need to reserve judgment until we see the real thing, but so far what could’ve been a vast improvement using the best of multiple different molds/techniques, both modes seem to have been compromised. 
 

Chris

Edited August 12, 2020 by Dobber

[technoblue]

34 minutes ago, Chronocidal said:

Going to just go out and say it, I -hate- having giant flappy hinges in the wings/tails on seekers, or even worse, requiring them to fold over at the root with no locking mechanism.  Like, at the very least, could they try and make the hinge disappear from the top, rather than making the whole hinge visible on the surface?

I know why Maketoys made them fold that way, but what it also led to was a flood of photos of their Seeker mold with tails and stabs splayed at any number of cockeyed angles, which is a serious eyesore to someone who actually likes the look of the F-15.  I'm left wondering if the photographer just didn't make the effort, or if the hinges literally will not stay in place.

+1

I'm glad someone emphasized this issue. Not having a locking point to fix those hinged pieces into the correct position was a real let down for me too. I needed to fiddle with those pieces constantly to get them in the right place in alt mode. Of course, even if I did all that prep work, a slight breeze or tap could knock them out of position.

Since I don't own these anymore, I have to go into my picture archive. Here's one of the better ones:

Believe it or not, it took a while to get everything just right on Skycrow here, and looking at the pic again I think the tips of the vertical stabs are still a wee bit off from where they should be.

One thing that I hope Takara does right, even though they are using their own hinged mechanism on Starscream's backpack, is to engineer a way to fix all the foldy bits in place in alt mode. A nice bonus would definitely be to hide the hinges on the surface of the F-15. It will be cool to see how it will all work if they can do it.

[Tking22]

17 hours ago, Jeremy007 said:

What is surprising to me is every time Takara announces a new show accurate MP, the anti-show accurate crowd act shocked that Takara is doing it.  Every release since Inferno its been “nope. Looks too much like the show...why is Takara doing this when I don't like it”.  Which is fine. They don’t have to like it, but don’t be shocked when each one is clearly following a pattern and looks like the show. 
 

Then the next one is shown and they are angry again. “Why is Takara doing this. I can’t believe they are still going for toon accuracy”.  Clearly Takara has a plan. They have been doing it like this for several years. 
 

Then the next one is shown and the detractors are still shocked it looks the way it does. 

Nobody is angry or shocked, as you said and as everyone has already acknowledged, that's clearly the direction Takara is and has been going, it's just every new release a lot of folks like to air their grievances with the line, and their disappointment that this was a line many were buying before, and are not now due to a distinct change in aesthetic and design direction. 

I'm honestly super happy with the Siege stuff I've purchased. I didn't plan of getting anything from Siege, I don't do mainline stuff, MP only and I finished my collection a while ago now. but Siege has been fantastic, design and aesthetic. I think Siege gave birth to one of the finest mainline figures ever released, Jetfire/Skyfire. Honestly, if I didn't already have FansToys Phoenix/Skyfire/Jetfire, I probably wouldn't flinch too much at using Siege Skyfire/Jetfire as an MP stand-in, Siege has been a really fantastic line of figures, I haven't bought in on and been happy with mainline Transformers since Prime. 

[M'Kyuun]

6 hours ago, technoblue said:

+1

I'm glad someone emphasized this issue. Not having a locking point to fix those hinged pieces into the correct position was a real let down for me too. I needed to fiddle with those pieces constantly to get them in the right place in alt mode. Of course, even if I did all that prep work, a slight breeze or tap could knock them out of position.

Since I don't own these anymore, I have to go into my picture archive. Here's one of the better ones:

Believe it or not, it took a while to get everything just right on Skycrow here, and looking at the pic again I think the tips of the vertical stabs are still a wee bit off from where they should be.

One thing that I hope Takara does right, even though they are using their own hinged mechanism on Starscream's backpack, is to engineer a way to fix all the foldy bits in place in alt mode. A nice bonus would definitely be to hide the hinges on the surface of the F-15. It will be cool to see how it will all work if they can do it.

Skycrow is my only Maketoys Seeker, and I think it's a really nice figure overall. But you're not wrong about those hinges on the stabs- they're fidgety and weak, requiring exhaustive repositioning to try and get them straight.  It's not much of an issue for me, as he stays in bot mode 99% of the time. But every now and again, I get the urge to transform him and the hinge by the head and the stabs both give grief. 

I'd rather Takara just fold the stabs up flat behind the wings in lieu of splitting them open to encase them. 

6 hours ago, Tking22 said:

I'm honestly super happy with the Siege stuff I've purchased. I didn't plan of getting anything from Siege, I don't do mainline stuff, MP only and I finished my collection a while ago now. but Siege has been fantastic, design and aesthetic. I think Siege gave birth to one of the finest mainline figures ever released, Jetfire/Skyfire. Honestly, if I didn't already have FansToys Phoenix/Skyfire/Jetfire, I probably wouldn't flinch too much at using Siege Skyfire/Jetfire as an MP stand-in, Siege has been a really fantastic line of figures, I haven't bought in on and been happy with mainline Transformers since Prime. 

With few exceptions, I agree for both Siege and Earthrise. Finally getting a proper Skyfire (wish they would've used the name) was a wonderful surprise, something I honestly never thought we'd get. While it's not as polished as FT's Phoenix, it's still a great effort by HasTak. ER Prime exceeds my expectations for a main line Optimus. It's a briiliant figure. The only weaknesses of the mold are the wheels folded on his butt, and elbows that only bend to 90 degrees ( I would have liked more range, but it's easily forgivable for everything else it does right). It's the G1 update in the main line that I've longed for since 1985.   It's also one of the most fun OP toys I've ever owned- I just can't bring myself to put it on the CHUG shelf- it begs to played with and posed. Aside from Arcee, I think my biggest disappointment in the line is Astrotrain. The bot mode looks great, but both alt modes have too many concessions, and they ruin the figure for me. Overall, though, HasTak have given us some really nice G1 homages in the line.

 

[M'Kyuun]

Stumbled on a list of rumors for the Kingdom wave of WFC and thought I'd post it. 

If these prove true, I'm not feeling the skeletal stuff. I'd much rather they give us a full team of voyager scaled Dinobots. Anyway, just rumors for now, so take it with a grain.

[mikeszekely]

39 minutes ago, M'Kyuun said:

Stumbled on a list of rumors for the Kingdom wave of WFC and thought I'd post it. 

If these prove true, I'm not feeling the skeletal stuff. I'd much rather they give us a full team of voyager scaled Dinobots. Anyway, just rumors for now, so take it with a grain.

Curious, if true, that we're getting "Core" class Optimus and Megatron when they'd previously ditched the Legends class and were focused more heavily on keeping everyone in scale.  I also find the notion of a third Voyager-class Starscream to be a bit odd.  And I agree, I'm not particularly interested in Fossilizers.

That being said, I mind Hasbro tossing a bone to Beast Wars fans a lot less when they're saying it's actually a 40/60 split with G1.  Inferno, Cyclonus, Warpath, Rodimus, and Galvatron are all welcome additions, and there might be no one on earth more excited for Slammer than I am (although I really wish Scamper would get a do over).  I'm also quite curious to see what the next Titan will be (but the "gangly" description doesn't sound right for Metroplex).

I'm a bit concerned about the rumor that Rodimus will be the next Commander-class.  Rodimus himself shouldn't be bigger than Optimus, which is to say Voyager-sized.  Even if, as the rumor suggests, this will be close to the G1 toy (which to me implies that Rodimus only turns into the cab and most of the vehicle is a trailer/battle station) I don't see the trailer adding enough for Rodimus to  be more than a Leader-class toy.

[M'Kyuun]

I'm also ok with the ratio of G1 to BW- I'd rather it were 80-20 respectively, but 60-40 is ok. At least they're still doing G1 in the next wave. I wish they'd leave BW out of it altogether and let it have its own line under the Generations banner, TBH. I don't mind their doing BW (I love BW, and I have quite a few toys from various lines over the years). However, I see WFC as Hasbro's golden opportunity to just go all out on the G1 stuff, make all the major characters so that the core groups from first season , the '86 Movie, and and whatever else they want to throw into the mix get their updates in the line, and thus make all the Geewunners happy. I think it's safe to say that's what most of us want. Once that's accomplished, move on to BW, or whatever else they want to do with Generations. I see it as a way to give G1 a rest for a while and focus on something new.  Constant rehashing just creates fatigue- I think we're primed, pun unintended, for another Animated-esque sort of creative outing in the brand. I don't mean copy Animated, but a new show in the same creative spirit- a new direction, new characters, different setting, original story.  Aside from the abhorred Bayverse, I think it's good to breathe new life into  a franchise from time to time. Honestly, as much as I revile the Bay films, I have to acknowledge that some very creative toys and engineering approaches came from those designs that influence the way HasTak does business since '07. Moreover, the movies made a lot of revenue for Hasbro and Takara, which has kept the franchise thriving, and given the partner companies the money to keep toys across numerous lines coming. For that I'm sincerely thankful. I'm not sure the brand would be where it is today without Bayverse.

Your concern about a commander class Rodimus is valid; why would he need to be that big when Optimus is a leader class with his trailer? Rodimus' battle chariot isn't even as big as Prime's trailer, even the shrunken one from ER, if Hot Rodimus is in scale with ER Prime.  Well, it's just rumor for now, and hopefully that's misinformation., as it makes little sense in context. 

They mention concerning the unnamed "gangly" Titan as possibly being the Ark. Somehow, that doesn't track, either. Then again, I always imagine Omega Supreme from Animated whenever a transforming Ark is mentioned. That's a toy I'd love to have. That could be their next Haslab project- I'd be all in.

[mikeszekely]

Came home today after spending the weekend visiting Lake Pymatuning (with a brief stop at Lake Conneaut).  Swung by my local Target for some supplies, and although I wasn't expecting to find anything special I did walk through the toys.  And lo and behold, I actually did find some new toys!  Specifically, I found Cyberverse Deluxe Class Arcee.

Arcee suffers, as all the Cyberverse figures have suffered, from a lot of missing paint decos.  There's no blue on her ears, no dark pink or blue on her biceps, no dark pink on her hands, no blue on her thighs, some blue on her knees but not her shins, and her feet should be the lighter pink.  None of her joints have any black, and she's got noticeable hollow spots on the inside of her thighs.  I also happen to think her head is too big.  I mean, the short body and long legs seem to be animation accurate, but her noggin still looks bigger than it should be.

Let's also address the elephant in the room... she's got a ginormous backpack.  To be fair, her animation model has a pretty big backpack, and Arcee figures just don't seem to have a lot of luck in this area, but this is pretty ridiculous.  I know there's a lot of disappointment about the upcoming Earthrise figure's backpack... I can't wait for it to come out so I can compare the two.  For now, though... yeesh.

At least Arcee comes with quite a few accessories.  She's got a pistol that's not exactly animation accurate, but it's fine.  She's got a pair of blast effect parts.  And she comes with not one but three of the build-a-figure parts- both shoulder/biceps, and a hammer.  With the shoulders I can finally put all the pieces I have together!  Or, I could if I could find them all.  I thought I had them all together, but I can't find the forearm that came with Grimlock.  Oh well, I'm sure it'll turn up.

Getting back to Arcee, her head is on a ball joint that can swivel and look up/down a little.  It's not cut for sideways tilt, though.  Her shoulders are ball joints for rotation and a little under 90 degrees of lateral movement.  She's got bicep swivels (her left arm likes to pop off at the swivel on my copy), and elbows that bend 90 degrees.  No wrist swivels.  She does have sort of a high waist swivel, at the narrowest point of her hourglass shape.  Her hips are ball joints that can go 90 degrees forward/backward and a little less than that laterally.  She has thigh swivels just above her knees, which bend 180 degrees on a single hinge due to her transformation.  Her feet can tilt down, but only the the slightest bit up, and she has no ankle pivots.

Her hands are molded into 5mm grips, so she can hold her pistol just fine.  She can hold Maccadam's hammer, too.  Hey, it came in her box.  The blast effect parts can fit onto the pistol's barrel.

Arcee's alt mode does homage the G1 versions, but run through Cyberverse's blocky filter.  And the engineering is all-too familiar figures with a feminine shape- cover that shape with a shell carried in the backpack.

No, seriously, unfold her backpack and bring it up over her head.  The only thing that's missing is the side panels she's carrying on her forearms.

I mentioned that the alt mode is pretty block; I think it's blockier than the already-blocky concept art.  And again, she's missing plenty of paint but less than I first thought.  Like, she's got the stripes on the hood, the dark grill, the blue headlights, and the lighter pink nose and sides.  The cockpit is mostly transparent blue and light pink, which is mostly correct, but she could use a dark pink stripe.  Her fin should be dark pink, and her rear is missing a dark pink stripe.  In front of the cockpit she's got a block of light pink; it should actually be dark pink with a light pink raised section on top of it sporting a blue light.  Otherwise she just needs a little black on her back and some blue on her taillights.  I'd have also liked a little dark paint on the vents on her rear fenders.

Oh, and one thing that bugs me is that they painted some blue (correctly) on her wheels, but they cast her wheels in pink plastic.  The non-blue part of her wheels should be black.

While in alt mode there's a space under the nose where you can store her pistol.  As for the blast effect parts they can plug into her rear.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, when I see what Hasbro's done with the Deluxe-class in Siege and Earthrise it's hard to justify the same price for Cyberverse Arcee (or most of the Cyberverse Deluxes).  Yeah, you get the BAF pieces, but I'd happily trade those in for more paint to have a more show-accurate deco, actual engineering instead of folding the robot up and stuffing her in the car on her back, and ankle pivots.  I won't say that Arcee's a bad figure, though, or even the worst of the Cyberverse Deluxes (that honor still goes to Hot Rod).  I wouldn't necessarily recommend her, but as long as you know what you're in for I wouldn't say you should avoid her, either.

[tekering]

1 hour ago, mikeszekely said:

I love all of Mike's contributions, but this deserves special commendation.