Mass Effect III

[Vic Mancini]

I am inclined to think that the original inside-man Reaper plan involving a direct jump to the Citadel was meant to quickly take out the leadership of whatever civilization was in charge at the time, which would make their task of wiping out the rest of the galaxy easier. They must have reasoned that this decapitation attack woud make the rest of their galactic tour easier... though in the case of the Protheans it still took a few centuries.

And you might be right, but it's a shame that we're left to conjecture. It would have been nice to have a scene or discussion in which Shepard says something along the lines of, "Gee, it sucks that the Reapers were able to get here in only six months of FTL travel, but it's a good thing we stopped their plan of coming through the conduit because then we would've had NO HOPE of winning this war. At least all those small victories in ME1 and ME2 gave us a fighting chance."

And to be honest I still don't buy it. I think we were given the impression that the Reapers were trapped much further away than a six month FTL trip. Also, Hackett doesn't say, "They traveled here with their FTL drives to the nearest relay, and used it to spread to the rest of the galaxy." He just says, "They flooded through the relays." It just feels like the whole thing was an afterthought on Bioware's part.

[CoryHolmes]

Yeah, it really did. So much about this game could've been explained better with a few words of exposition. It's not like this game doesn't have the room for more words

[Freiflug88]

Shepard only discovered the Reapers about 2 and half years before the Reapers reached Earth in ME3,. however Sovereign started indoctrinating followers in secret as the "Leviathan of Dis" 18 years before the events of Mass Effect 1. Which implies that it took at least 20 years for the Reapers to FTL to the Milky Way after their Citadel backdoor failed to open.

[Vic Mancini]

Shepard only discovered the Reapers about 2 and half years before the Reapers reached Earth in ME3,. however Sovereign started indoctrinating followers in secret as the "Leviathan of Dis" 18 years before the events of Mass Effect 1. Which implies that it took at least 20 years for the Reapers to FTL to the Milky Way after their Citadel backdoor failed to open.

Well I assumed there is a super massive mass relay wherever the Reapers are hibernating that connects directly to the Conduit. So why would they start FTLing away from their relay and towards the Milky Way before Sovereign's defeat and before they know they're stranded? That doesn't make sense to me. And even if they did, (which I don't believe), 20 years is still a blink of an eye compared to the hibernation period of the Reapers. Why would they go to so much trouble to set up the Conduit plan just to give themselves an extra 0.04% of sleepy time? That's like setting up a huge elaborate plan just to give yourself an extra 11.52 seconds of sleep before your drive to work in the morning, (assuming your regular nightly sleep is 8 hours).

The only way the Conduit plan makes sense is if the Reapers were so far away that FTL travel was either impossible or impractical. Or if the plan's sole purpose was strategic, as Ghost Train was conjecturing.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Vic Mancini

[Freiflug88]

I say it was at least 20 years because that was when Baterian explorers dug him up from his 1 billion year old crater on Jactar and became his first indoctrination victims. I don't have any proof, but personally I like to think that Sovereign has been dialing the Conduit from his hole in the ground ever since the Quarian/Geth conflict began 300 years ago. If that is the case though a 300 year delay would be a huge deal in the sense that this cycle could have advanced further then the Reapers were comfortable with. Such as the Normandy Stealth drives, etc..

[Vic Mancini]

Sorry, but even 300 years is still nothing more than a drop in the bucket to a species that is millions of years old and hibernates for 50K years at a time. That's less than 1% of a Reaper's hibernation cycle. They could just wake up 1% earlier and get here on time. Unless the FTL travel time for reapers is thousands of years and impractical for Reapers to travel, it makes no sense to devise such a complicated plan, or for us to stop it.

And even if you are right, why would the Reapers bother with indoctrinating Saren if their journey to the Milky Way was already 99% complete. By then it's pointless. They could just call up Sovereign and say, "Yo dawg, no need to blow your cover and tip off the various civilizations of the galaxy by indoctrinating a spectre and half of the Geth. We're like five minutes away, and the invasion has a much better chance of success if you just sit tight and lay low for a while." What's the point of all those battles and sacrifices in ME1 and ME2 if the 300 year FTL journey of the reapers is virtually over? The significance of our past accomplishments are still counterfeited and the first two games were just a series of sacrifices that were made in vain. And if that's the case, so be it. But there should at least be a scene which addresses it. Shepard should have a moment where he realizes that he's been wasting his effort for two and a half years.

And I still disagree with you that the Reapers traveled here by FTL, because there would be no reason to write Hackett's dialogue as, "They just flooded through the mass relays" instead of "They just flew here by way of FTL, the old fashioned way". It doesn't serve the story any purpose for Hackett's explanation to be worded that way if the Reapers just FTLed to the Milky Way.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Vic Mancini

[Freiflug88]

And even if you are right, why would the Reapers bother with indoctrinating Saren if their journey to the Milky Way was already 99% complete. By then it's pointless. They could just call up Sovereign and say, "Yo dawg, no need to blow your cover and tip off the various civilizations of the galaxy by indoctrinating a spectre and half of the Geth. We're like five minutes away, and the invasion has a much better chance of success if you just sit tight and lay low for a while."

That is a plot inconsistency created in Mass Effect 2. In Mass Effect 1 its stated that Sovereign was cut off from all communication with the Reaper due to the Prothean firewalls on the Conduit and explains his desperate alliance with Saren and the Geth. Which was completely plausible IMHO until ME 2 brought Illusive Man's quantum communicators, Harbringer's Direct Control abilities, and of course the Collector drone army to the table.

[Lynx7725]

FWIW, in game lore that I picked up has the Reapers hitting Batarian space first, and the isolationist tendencies of the Batarian did not help -- they were pounded into the ground very quickly. Having gotten into Batarian space, the Reapers are then free to use Batarian relays. Given the Reapers built the Relays, it's entirely possible that they could set up any relay-to-relay connections they wanted.

At any rate, Earth's battle started when the Reapers came through the Acturian Relay; The Alliance fleet there was somewhat ready and could put up some resistance, but essentially the Earth government hosted in that system got obliterated. The Reapers then continued on towards Earth, leading to the opening cinematics. The Alliance fleets did put up resistance, including the sacrifice of a full fleet to let the rest get away.

Remember, by the time the Reapers hit Earth, they already have enough biomass to create Cannibals (definitely identified), which are Batarians and humans parts kitbashed together. The humans can be explained by colonies, early hits, and maybe Collectors, but that many Cannibals.. many Batarians died to bring you those Cannibals.

Reapers' FTL capabilities are unknown, but presumably are less efficient than Relays -- relays are in high use by the various races because it is faster and fuel efficient IMO. I think it's reasonable to assume the same for the Reapers, even if their tech level is way higher.

End of the day, the Reapers are not so much intelligent, but controlled by the "Star Child". It may be just that the idiocy in Citadel just decided to snooze a bit longer.

[Freiflug88]

Took a look at Mass Effect 3 Codex on Reapers:

"The Reapers' thrusters and FTL drives appear to propel them at more than twice the speed of Citadel ships. Estimates of their location in dark space suggest they can travel nearly 30 light-years in a 24-hour period."

"Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers."

"In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts."

"The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength."

[Vic Mancini]

Well whatever the case, it's a shame that it's all left to conjecture and interpretation. Because I, as an individual player of Mass Effect who is speaking on behalf of only myself, feel like the rug was pulled out from under everything I had accomplished in ME1 and 2. That was the experience I had. And we're talking about a game that goes into excruciating detail into the background stories of it's characters, the cultural histories and governments of a few dozen civilizations, the inner workings and physical properties of all the weapons and technology, and just about every other detail of the ME universe...but when it comes to how the reapers actually got here, and why it doesn't contradict their entire plan to come through the conduit, it's glossed over in about two lines of dialogue over a vidcom. And I think that sucks.

[Ghost Train]

If Bioware had to retroactively explain this whole "So how did the Reapers get here then" question, it would probably involve the ILM - who would have graciously opened a different backdoor for the Reapers.

[BeyondTheGrave]

I just assumed the reapers used multiple jumps instead of using the toll road.

[Graham]

Mass Effect Infiltrator on Android is a passable smartphone FPS. Great graphics, but the controls are a bit clunky espcially for aiming and using biotics.

I also dislike the way you have to kill things in a 'stylish' way to earn credits to buy upgrades. I just wanna kill things in the quickest, most efficient and safest way possible, without having to worry about whether I'm being stylish or not.

Overall, I rate Gameloft's Modern Combat 3, N.O.V.A. 2 and N.O.V.A. 3 as being far better smartphone FPS games with far easier to use and intuitive controls for aiming, shooting and moving.

Graham

[anime52k8]

"smartphone FPS games"

There is something seriously wrong with the world.

[Vic Mancini]

@Graham:

Not to get all nerdy-technical on you, but FPS (first person shooters) are games where you look directly through your character's eyes. Halo, Half-Life, etc.

Games in which you see your character on screen, like Mass Effect and Gears of War, are third person shooters.

[Graham]

Ah, right, I stand corrected then

Anyway, its a quite a fun game, controlling a guy in space armour, running around shooting various aliens (no idea who any of them are though, or why I need to kill them, shoot first and ask questions later and all that.....hahaha)

Graham

[Vic Mancini]

Update:

I've been doing another run through ME2, and I'm less confused now about how the Reapers got to Earth. Previously I thought the Reapers were about to come through the alpha relay in the Arrival DLC, and the goal was to blow it up before the reapers came through. But I had that wrong. After listening more closely to the dialogue, the alpha relay is only how the reapers are going to get to the rest of the galaxy after they arrive in Batarian space which is on the outer most fringe of the galaxy. They're actually about to arrive via good ol' FTL, and you just have to destroy the relay and get the hell out of dodge before they get there. So the reapers actually reach the Milky Way well before ME2 is even finished. Presumably they wipe out the Batarians, (convert them to husks), and FTL their way to the next closest relay, and that explains the six month gap between the end of ME2 and when they reach Earth in ME3. So my bad, it all makes sense now.

What still doesn't make sense to me is why the Reapers put together an elaborate plan to come through the Citadel relay in ME1, (and in the countless cycles that occur before ME1), if FTLing their way to the Milky Way was going to be so easy for them. Oh well...

[anime52k8]

What still doesn't make sense to me is why the Reapers put together an elaborate plan to come through the Citadel relay in ME1, (and in the countless cycles that occur before ME1), if FTLing their way to the Milky Way was going to be so easy for them. Oh well...

You're talking about a form of synthetic life who's master plan to keep organic life from being wiped out by synthetic life is to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy. Clearly they are not particularly good at long term planing.

[Vic Mancini]

You're talking about a form of synthetic life who's master plan to keep organic life from being wiped out by synthetic life is to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy. Clearly they are not particularly good at long term planing.

Lol. Good point. Reminds me of this:

[CoryHolmes]

The plot to take over the Citadel comes from the fact that they went out f their way to make sure the Citadel would become the centre of whatever civilization arose in subsequent cycles. It's the heart of the relay network, is perfectly suited for large numbers of alien species, and is wholly customizable by The Keepers for all biochemistries.

This would give the invading reapers valuable census data on just which worlds were inhabited, where the bulk of military forces were stationed and allow them to control the relay network and shut it down for all users save themselves. It's also a direct route from their hibernation area in Dark Space to the galaxy at large. And the trap worked for umpteen million years, until the Protheans cracked the code and set in motion the hope for the next cycle.

That makes me wonder if this war is the first that the reapers had to fight in any conventional sense. Without the citadel and access to its command/control functions they couldn't shut down the relay network, and that's what gave the races a chance at victory.

[BeyondTheGrave]

You're talking about a form of synthetic life who's master plan to keep organic life from being wiped out by synthetic life is to wipe out all organic life in the galaxy. Clearly they are not particularly good at long term planing.

So who's planning was better. The engineers from Prometheus or the reapers.

[Ghost Train]

I don't think that Reapers are synthetics, at least not in the same vein as the Geth, EDI/EVA, etc.

Per ME2, the Reapers need to harvest "organic material" in order to bring a new Reaper to life, and there is that whole discussion at the end of part 3 about how each cycle's organic life is incorporated into the Reaper community. If anything, they are hybrids much the same way as Shepard is, though the machine to meat ratio is probably much higher for the giant space cuttlefish. This ratio was probably high enough to prevent their survival in the red ending.

Since Shepard is partly synthetic himself, only he/she can defeat the Reapers, he is in fact fighting himself... and Bioware's atrocious writers.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Ghost Train

[mikeszekely]

I think the quality of the writing in each Mass Effect game is directly proportional to Drew Karpyshyn's involvement.

First one was great. Second one (which Drew worked heavily on, but wasn't a leader writer for) was good. Then Drew left and everything went to hell for the third.

[Vic Mancini]

I don't think that Reapers are synthetics, at least not in the same vein as the Geth, EDI/EVA, etc.

Synthetic or not...I think the funny/weird/not-so-thought-out part is that the Catalyst's solution to prevent everyone from destroying themselves is to destroy everyone. Yes, everyone sort of lives on by being preserved for eternity in Reaper form, but who are we kidding, the solution mostly defeats the purpose.

The Mass Effect story made more sense, and was more emotionally powerful, when we didn't know where the Reapers came from or why they harvested civilizations. It was better when they didn't need an explanation. I always assumed they just evolved over time, kind of as if the first Skynet just kept snowballing and was never stopped by the civilization that created it, or any civilization afterward. Their origin or purpose wasn't important. But no...Bioware throws us this curve ball in the last 10 minutes of the game and explains why the Reapers were created and why they reap, and that explanation is a solution that defeats it's own purpose.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Vic Mancini

[Knight26]

The final explination I agree makes no sense. What would have made more sense was the whole Haestrom sun issue shown in ME2. Imagine this scenario, the creators of the reapers make AI to determine why their suns are starting to burn out too quickly. Those AI determine that using the mass relays are what is aging the suns prematurely, best solution stop using the mass relays. The civilization says no, says find another solution. The AI determine that if the suns are given a period of rest, say 40 thousand years then then they will normalize and not burn out or go nova too quickly. Again the civilization says no, 10,000 years is not enough time for them, says to find another solution. The AI determines that the best solution is to force the civilization to stop using the relays, so it develops the reapers, which either,

A: destroy the relays, forcing the civilization to use regular FTL again, or

B: attempts to destroy the relays and meets resistance, causing them to wipe out the civilization.

The first cycle would be a much different scenario then those that followed as the Reapers developed and eventually wiped out the civilizationt that created them as a last resort. The second cycle begins and the remaining Reapers try to warn the new civilization(s), but again they don't listen. This continues for a few cycles until the reapers realize that the best course of action is to simply leave the relay network up and build the citadel as a means of controlling the cycles to come. It may have even at first been a plan to use those constructs as a way to find a solution to the problem, that could have been the original purpose of the keepers, but that secret was lost to time, either the reapers abandoned it, or the keepers were too modified to remember and pass on the information.

At that point the destruction of the relay network makes much more sense, Shephard destroys the network in order to save everyone. Yes traditional FTL takes a much longer time, but it still allows some interstellar travel, and it gives the newly united civilzations a chance to put their best minds to work on the problem. At that point even the three choices make more sense as well.

A: Controlling the Reapers allows access to millions, if not billions of years of data about the star/mass relay cycle, but also some danger as they could turn again.

B: Destroying the reapers, and all AIs really is a renegade end then, you lose all the reaper data and all the Geth expertise, with those two powerful AI civilizations you can probably work out the relay problem much faster.

C: Synthesis allows all the races a chance to contribute the correction of the problem even better, keeping the Reaper Data, and potentially wiping out all disease, and extending lifespans long enough so that all races are on an equal footing in terms of lifespan and their ability to work the problem.

That would also explain the general color coding of the relay destruction sequence.

Whichever choice however the relays still have to be shutdown/destroyed in order to keep their host stars from burning out. It could even end up being something as simple as periodically shutting down or moving the relays between systems, downsizing the relays, or making the relay jumps shorter.

Think about it this way, an extreme amount of energy is expended every time a mass relay "fires" that energy has to go somewhere, yes the next relay catches the craft that was launched, but even it has to expend that energy somewhere. The bleed off is probably dumped into the nearest available massive heat sink, the local star, otherwise the relays would burn out, or get so hot as to be unusable. Who knows how it is transmitted to the star, but it might not even be that it could be like the wake a boat creates, when the ships comes to that sudden stop at the mass relays the energy keeps moving and hits the next star in direction, again prematurely aging it. The physics would take some time to work out, but it is a reasonable assumption, and makes a heck of a lot more sense then what was given, also it seems that something along those lines was the original plan.

[renegadeleader1]

So let me get this straight... the reapers safeguard all organic life, by killing all organic civilization before/just after they can create synthetic life and recruit said synthetics to aid them?

[Vic Mancini]

So let me get this straight... the reapers safeguard all organic life, by killing all organic civilization before/just after they can create synthetic life and recruit said synthetics to aid them?

Lol. Yes. I never thought about the recruiting aspect that way before. Now it seems even more silly.

[Freiflug88]

Rather by accident or on purpose Reaper's do safe guard primitive organic life by pruning the galaxy of only space faring civilizations. In the process of uprooting the established galactic order with chaos and destruction they give today's primitives a clean slates to build tomorrow's galactic space civilizations. Exactly like the the demonic Shivian Dreadnaughts of Freespace:

"I know why the Ancient Ones were destroyed, and I know what they knew. I know that if not for the Shivans they would have perished long before. Without the Shivans, someone would have discovered the Ancient Ones in their infancy, and eliminated them, just as surely as they eliminated countless billions of others. I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers. That is why when we moved into space, there was no one powerful enough to kill us. Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come. In the Vasudan war we learned how to adapt. We learned how to study our enemy. We learned how to overcome. We learned how to survive, and so we did. All the jump points from Earth are gone, but the Shivans can rebuild them. I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime... such is liberation."

I don't think that Reapers are synthetics, at least not in the same vein as the Geth, EDI/EVA, etc.

Per ME2, the Reapers need to harvest "organic material" in order to bring a new Reaper to life, and there is that whole discussion at the end of part 3 about how each cycle's organic life is incorporated into the Reaper community. If anything, they are hybrids much the same way as Shepard is, though the machine to meat ratio is probably much higher for the giant space cuttlefish. This ratio was probably high enough to prevent their survival in the red ending.

Since Shepard is partly synthetic himself, only he/she can defeat the Reapers, he is in fact fighting himself... and Bioware's atrocious writers.

I think the only difference between Reapers and other synthetics is the manufactoring process and building materials. The collector base seemed to melt organics into a carbon paste and then feed them into a giant 3D printer to "print" the Reaper parts.

Also I doubt Reapers physically need to use melted organic versus mining minerals in a convential manner. I think its just that Reapers physiologically driven to harvest organics because they are AIs with serial killer personalities. In the words of Ted Bundy “Murder is not about lust and it's not about violence. It's about possession.”

... and recruit said synthetics to aid them?

Why not? Like indocrinated organics they can be reprogramed for the cause then junked when no longer useful.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Freiflug88

[Ghost Train]

I think the only difference between Reapers and other synthetics is the manufactoring process and building materials. The collector base seemed to melt organics into a carbon paste and then feed them into a giant 3D printer to "print" the Reaper parts.

Also I doubt Reapers physically need to use melted organic versus mining minerals in a convential manner. I think its just that Reapers physiologically driven to harvest organics because they are AIs with serial killer personalities. In the words of Ted Bundy “Murder is not about lust and it's not about violence. It's about possession.”

Hmm... is this your opinion or is it actually stated somewhere that organics are processed to make carbon plates? I'm familiar with the idea that certain allotropes of carbon are some of the most durable materials ever, but living beings aren't necessarily good pure sources for Carbon, as amino acids also contain Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Hydrogen. Something as simple as mining for Graphite would be preferable.

Then that leaves as you say, some perverse AI influence that is driven to harvest.

In my opinion, pop culture has completely defecated on the word organic, which we've taken to mean eco-friendly and/or living. The word is really used to describe any molecule that contains carbon, so yes... a pencil (which contains Graphite) is organic, pesticides are organic, Viagra, Amoxycilin, and most meds are organic, and if Reaper hulls contain a healthy dose of carbon, they are organic as well.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Rather by accident or on purpose Reaper's do safe guard primitive organic life by pruning the galaxy of only space faring civilizations. In the process of uprooting the established galactic order with chaos and destruction they give today's primitives a clean slates to build tomorrow's galactic space civilizations. Exactly like the the demonic Shivian Dreadnaughts of Freespace:

"I know why the Ancient Ones were destroyed, and I know what they knew. I know that if not for the Shivans they would have perished long before. Without the Shivans, someone would have discovered the Ancient Ones in their infancy, and eliminated them, just as surely as they eliminated countless billions of others. I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers. That is why when we moved into space, there was no one powerful enough to kill us. Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come. In the Vasudan war we learned how to adapt. We learned how to study our enemy. We learned how to overcome. We learned how to survive, and so we did. All the jump points from Earth are gone, but the Shivans can rebuild them. I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime... such is liberation."

I think the only difference between Reapers and other synthetics is the manufactoring process and building materials. The collector base seemed to melt organics into a carbon paste and then feed them into a giant 3D printer to "print" the Reaper parts.

Also I doubt Reapers physically need to use melted organic versus mining minerals in a convential manner. I think its just that Reapers physiologically driven to harvest organics because they are AIs with serial killer personalities. In the words of Ted Bundy “Murder is not about lust and it's not about violence. It's about possession.”

I thought it was b/c humans were the most adaptable to situations.

[Freiflug88]

Its just speculation on my part about the carbon plating. The ME3 Codex on Reaper harvesting mere states "The processor ships reduce victims to a transportable liquid." Nothing about what exactly that liquid is or its purpose.

I thought it was b/c humans were the most adaptable to situations.

Can you be more specific?

Edited June 21, 2012 by Freiflug88

[Freiflug88]

Extended Cut DLC comes out Tuesday! ... But PS3 users like me have to wait till July 4th! WTF

http://www.neoseeker.com/news/19618-mass-effect-3-extended-cut-dlc-drops-next-tuesday-later-for-some-ps3-owners/

[BeyondTheGrave]

ps3 coding is different from PC and 360.

[Lynx7725]

Yeah, would be delaying my Insanity run until the EC comes out. Just left three achievements before the game is done for me.

[Freiflug88]

In my opinion, pop culture has completely defecated on the word organic, which we've taken to mean eco-friendly and/or living. The word is really used to describe any molecule that contains carbon, so yes... a pencil (which contains Graphite) is organic, pesticides are organic, Viagra, Amoxycilin, and most meds are organic, and if Reaper hulls contain a healthy dose of carbon, they are organic as well.

Come to think of it back in Mass Effect 1 the "Leviathon of Dis," which latter turned out to be Soverign in hibernation, was said to be a "corpse of a genetically engineered starship" in game. Which suggests that the Reaper's hulls are indeed organic.