Discovery of Macross?

[Mr March]

I agree, mostly. I really liked the stinger, the Unseen version much more so than the Reseen version. The other VF-1 based designs not so much, the VF-1A the way they adapted it, just seemed to fit.

I can remember discussing Battletech with someone at my local hobby shop when I was much younger, and mentioning that it would be great if battletech had a mech that transformed into a fighter. I was pointed to the novel Freebirth (in which the LAM's play a significant role), and to the internet for more information (as I had come into battletech after the whole unseen thing).

Of course I did a bit of research as to why I'd never seen them, and discovered the link to Macross (which I had already been introduced to through Macross 2).

They way they adapted the Glaug into the Marauder also seemed to fit too. The regult based designs seemed a bit wonky.

As long as our chosen works of fiction are appreciated in the proper context, it's never bad. Except Twilight, that's universally bad and should never be appreciated by anyone ever... except as the measuring stick of badness. Seriously, it's literally the only book I would burn, I wouldn't even condone burning Mein Kampf, that's how important I think books are (even ones with terrible content).

It's actually weird but I can't recall if I discovered Macross first or Mechwarrior/Battletech first. It's difficult now to think back that many years ago and try to chronicle at which point I first saw the designs. I do know that for sure, I recognized the Destroids (And Phoenix Hawk/Stingers) as Macross designs at the time. But whether I saw the Macross mecha first and then recognized them in MW/BT...OR....saw MW/BT first and then quickly recognized where the Macross designs originated, I cannot say. I just know that from the earliest I can recall, the origin of the Macross mecha was known to me. And I'm also VERY thankful that I learned about the original Macross (and the rest of the franchise) early as well. Discovering the real Macross was so much better than the stuff they were showing in North America at the time.

Speaking of the Glaug and Reguld, I'd like to see more of those chicken-walker designs again (particularly, armless ones). For whatever reason it feels like those have gone out of fashion. Perhaps there have been more than those I know about, but I would like to see more of those designs return to popularity. I bet some interesting stuff could be done with them today.

I disagree on Twilight; it's no different than any other fandom and despite how awful it is, I certainly won't single it out. That's skirting WAY too close to a gender issue for my comfort. I will say that from my perspective, Twilight is Michael Bay for females. It's the same horrid, gender-skewed crap catering to the worst impulses of it's gender audience; only difference is because nearly all entertainment is made by men and for men. Twilight is merely aimed at female consumers instead of male and that's viewed as an anomaly...which is sad considering they are half our planet's population

Edited August 11, 2015 by Mr March

[VF5SS]

http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2015/08/09/the-father-of-modern-mecha-design-finally-gets-his-own-exhibition/

[Kyp Durron]

For me, it was like most, watched Robotech when it came out in 1985, I remember thinking how the the other 2/3 of the series never seemed to go well with each other and seemed "forced" together. It wasn't until around 2003 that I remembered it and decided to look it up and discovered the truth behind it. Wanting to see the original version, I watched it, DYRL and Macross Plus and was hooked. Looked up Macross 7, and I just couldn't get into it at all. Then I watched Macross Zero, and liked it. The rest is history.

[Valkyrie Driver]

CMAjhXnWUAA_s9-.jpg

http://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2015/08/09/the-father-of-modern-mecha-design-finally-gets-his-own-exhibition/

Interesting Article. By the time I had come into Battletech, the Dougram, Crusher Joe, and Macross designs had been removed. Though the Warhammer IIC and Marauder IIC were still present in MechWarrior 2, my introduction to the franchise. My interest stemmed from there. Around the time I was in 2nd or third grade FASA had authorized a horrible TV show (horrible by my modern standards, having been "spoiled" by anime, watching it again was like trying to watch G1 transformers). It was enough to associate the name with the tabletop game, and the novel series, which I took to with gusto. Then the discovery of the link to macross, and now look at me.

I bought my Tomahawk Destroid because of my love for the old Warhammer IIC from MechWarrior 2. That and I really like the Tomahawk destroid, and wished it had received more screen time. Oh well there's still Macross Delta...

[stray]

As I understand it, Battletech originally set out as a "what if" project with japanese mecha. What if highly trained military pilots were operating these mecha instead of 15 year old kids with little to no training? And that it set out to ground it firmly in science fiction (attempting explanations of how things worked).

So as I understand it (now, I could be very wrong, I'm not 100% on the particulars), Battletech was an attempt to adapt Japanese real robot mecha, to a western cultural understanding. I like battletech, it's a fun universe to play around in, it's a rich and creative setting, with an original take on the real robot genre. In fact it's probably the single largest influence in the western understanding of the genre.

I'm indifferent to BT aside from picking up a MechWarrior game a long time ago that I could never really get into but...

I think you're talking subgenres rather than cultural norms. Its perfectly fine if you prefer gruff space marines or whatever with your mecha but its not exactly an anomaly in "western" SF/F to have young characters in mature stories. Even Starship Troopers was basically a coming of age story... somewhere, anyway, inbetween the military propaganda. Luke Skywalker was only 19 or so, Paul Atreides was 15, Ender Wiggin, etc.

Not to call you out necessarily, but to see it framed it as East vs. West is disingenuous IMO. In the grand scheme, its just a preference.

[Valkyrie Driver]

I think you're talking subgenres rather than cultural norms. Its perfectly fine if you prefer gruff space marines or whatever with your mecha but its not exactly an anomaly in "western" SF/F to have young characters in mature stories. Even Starship Troopers was basically a coming of age story... somewhere, anyway, inbetween the military propaganda. Luke Skywalker was only 19 or so, Paul Atreides was 15, Ender Wiggin, etc.

Not to call you out necessarily, but to see it framed it as East vs. West is disingenuous IMO. In the grand scheme, its just a preference.

You're right, I think I worded it a bit wonky. I should have specified, the idea being that these Mecha would be piloted by professional soldiers (highly trained and capable individuals) rather than an untrained civilian kid (like Amuro Ray, or some of the other gundam type pilots we've seen). Granted Macross doesn't suffer this too much (Basara isn't exactly a kid at 21, and Alto isn't exactly untrained), and it isn't unheard of for us to have 15 or 16 yr old kids fighting on the front lines (kids would lie about their ages to enlist during WW2).

Anime seems to involve some kind of extenuating circumstances, that allow younger people to participate in military actions, to get around the fact that most Professional soldiers in developed nations are over 18 years of age.

Not saying that's a bad thing, it certainly makes the protagonists more relateable to a wider audience. You may be right that the way I framed it might have been a bit off. I hope this clarifies what I was trying to say.

[stray]

You're right, I think I worded it a bit wonky. I should have specified, the idea being that these Mecha would be piloted by professional soldiers (highly trained and capable individuals) rather than an untrained civilian kid (like Amuro Ray, or some of the other gundam type pilots we've seen). Granted Macross doesn't suffer this too much (Basara isn't exactly a kid at 21, and Alto isn't exactly untrained), and it isn't unheard of for us to have 15 or 16 yr old kids fighting on the front lines (kids would lie about their ages to enlist during WW2).

Anime seems to involve some kind of extenuating circumstances, that allow younger people to participate in military actions, to get around the fact that most Professional soldiers in developed nations are over 18 years of age.

I can't help but feeling like these highly trained specialists should be wearing red shirts while eating pineapple salad and won't make it 15 minutes into the plot...

Can you give any examples beyond BT?

[Valkyrie Driver]

I can't help but feeling like these highly trained specialists should be wearing red shirts while eating pineapple salad and won't make it 15 minutes into the plot...

Can you give any examples beyond BT?

I'm a bit confused as to what exactly you're asking for, but I'll give a go at what I think you're asking for:

Just because you're highly trained, doesn't mean you get plot armor. Bad things happen to good people. Think about it in terms of Macross, Roy, Hikaru, and Max are all aces, we know their names because they're central characters, but each of them probably got the same training as the nameless cannon fodder pilots. They just got lucky enough to survive, and got good enough to stay that way. Even so, Roy proves that main characters aren't invincible.

BattleTech is a bit different, because even the cannon fodder dudes get names, and small back stories, to make the hero's character seem more human in mourning their loss, or knowing their name. Even the guys that don't occupy 'mechs get to have a bit of personality, and that's probably due to the big difference in format. You can convey a lot more of that detail with a novel, than you can with a 30 minute TV episode, or a short manga or other illustrated story.

A single battletech novel couldn't be condensed into a 30 minute TV episode while preserving that level of detail, you probably couldn't do it in an hour or even 2.

I'm not saying that makes it better, just different. If you sit down and read a star trek novel, or a star wars novel, you'll see something very similar, where you get fewer nameless red shirts, and more detail. The Next Generation era Star Trek series were better about this, not leaving so many nameless corpses.

Like I said, it's a difference in format that really makes the difference. I can't speak to the Macross novels or manga, as I can't read them, but the shows are lacking that kind of detail, and rightly so. Who wants to keep track of a million different named characters in a 30 minute episode? I came for sweet space fighter battles, kickass mecha fights, and sappy love triangles, with some music thrown in for flavor. I don't care about those one off characters that fly out and die just so the hero can look like a badass.

Since I brought up the Battletech TV show in my earlier post, I should probably mention that it does much of the same kind of thing Macross does. There are the nameless cannon fodder guys that do stuff, and die, while the heroes look like badasses and get crap done, only with crappy dialogue, and very 2 dimensional characters.

Does that sound like what you were looking for?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[Valkyrie Driver]

One other interesting tidbit about the origin of battletech, that might make you feel a bit warmer about it, FASA liscenced the Macross designs straight from Big West or Studio Nue (I think it's Studio Nue, as they hold the ownership of the Intellectual Property according to the Japanese Courts). Harmony Gold's distribution rights came from Tatsunoko Productions, who only controlled foreign distribution of Studio Nue's intellectual property.It took Harmony Gold almost 10 years to realize FASA was using those designs, which should have been way past the statute of limitations if you ask me.

All mech designs used in battletech now are homegrown to avoid legal troubles like this in the future, and now that it has established itself, and has a fairly competent design team, their stuff kind of stands on it's own now.

Just thought I'd throw that out there, so none of the current battletech designs are Anime in origin, the artwork is completely original product now (aside from common design elements that you just can't help).

That said, I do prefer Macross these days, just because it's still alive, while the Battletech novels are more or less dead (wizkids killed it by trying to go all grimdark, but thankfully the games are still supported by Catalyst Game Labs), but we still have short stories and such from the Iconic BattleTech writers, so not all is lost.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[Gubaba]

One other interesting tidbit about the origin of battletech, that might make you feel a bit warmer about it, FASA liscenced the Macross designs straight from Big West or Studio Nue (I think it's Studio Nue, as they hold the ownership of the Intellectual Property according to the Japanese Courts). Harmony Gold's distribution rights came from Tatsunoko Productions, who only controlled foreign distribution of Studio Nue's intellectual property.It took Harmony Gold almost 10 years to realize FASA was using those designs, which should have been way past the statute of limitations if you ask me.

Another thing that makes me LESS warm towards many Battletech fans is their seeming inability to check their facts. FASA didn't get their license from Big West or Studio Nue, they got it from 20th Century Imports, who had worked with US companies to release a lot of anime model kits to the U.S. market.

(And your understanding of who owns what in Macross is a little skewed... Studio Nue owns none of it on their own, besides credit for the original concept, and while Tatsunoko owns the overseas rights, they don't JUST own the overseas rights. their name is all over the Japanese DVD and BD sets, for example.)

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10763

http://www.qqmercs.com/now-you-see-me-and-now-you-dont-a-brief-history-of-the-unseen/

[Valkyrie Driver]

Another thing that makes me LESS warm towards many Battletech fans is their seeming inability to check their facts. FASA didn't get their license from Big West or Studio Nue, they got it from 20th Century Imports, who had worked with US companies to release a lot of anime model kits to the U.S. market.

(And your understanding of who owns what in Macross is a little skewed... Studio Nue owns none of it on their own, besides credit for the original concept, and while Tatsunoko owns the overseas rights, they don't JUST own the overseas rights. their name is all over the Japanese DVD and BD sets, for example.)

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10763

http://www.qqmercs.com/now-you-see-me-and-now-you-dont-a-brief-history-of-the-unseen/

Ok, So there's more to the story, that I was either forgetting or completely unaware of. Choosing between an encyclopedic knowledge of all the legalisms and cockbaggery involved with the whole matter, and precious memories of my childhood, childhood kinda wins.

Now perhaps I was reading a condescending tone into your reply where it was not intended, but the wording sort of demanded it. If that is the case, don't take these next few pieces of my reply the wrong way.

I may not have all the facts or an complete knowledge of the whole matter, but the fact remains that Harmony Gold was completely uninvolved during the development of battletech, and FASA leased the designs from Japan. I don't believe I was wrong about the Japanese courts ruling on studio nue's ownership of the Intellectual property itself.

Simple fact of the matter is I like battletech, and while, yes, the designs are very derivitive, they are different enough to tell Harmony gold to go stuff it, and get them printed, so fans will be happy.

I'm a little bit concerned about how much of a cock you want to be regarding this subject. I actually resent your generalization that BattleTech fans are boorish and ethnocentric, regarding Japanese media. Fact of the mater is while yes, those fans exist, and if that's been your only experience, I'm truly sorry. That doesn't necessarily make them representative of the whole. If they are, I'm proud to consider myself part of the minority that are not that way.

I don't want anime to be Americanized or Anglocized, or anything other than translated for everyone to enjoy in it's original state. If you take away Transformers, Power Rangers, and BattleTech, all I'm left with is war movies from before I was born, movie theater serials from when my dad was a kid (like looney tunes and Popeye), Batman the Animated Series, Star Trek, and Star Wars. Notice, the only things from my childhood that I remember as being fresh, new, and innovative, were ripped off straight from Japan. I appreciate it now that I've gone back and learned where it came from, and I appreciate the source material so much more because of it.

So you tell me, does that make me one of those obnoxious Battletech fans? So, I don't have a fully fleshed out research paper a mile long on reasons to hate harmony gold. Instead, I have only what amounts to a picture of me burning HG to the ground done in crayon at a 1st grade art level. I don't have the whole story, I don't care to have it. All I know is that BattleTech was a huge part of my childhood, that along with transformers, played a huge role in my discovery of the wide world of anime, and particularly Macross, by predisposing me to liking giant robots, and especially ones that turn into fighter jets. Though the appeal for Macross is that it's actually the other way around.

[Gubaba]

Yes, I think you're reading too much into my reply. I don't care for Battletech, and my experiences with its fans has left me with a poor impression of them. I'm not sure why this bothers you so much, or why you want to change my mind.

I'm also not sure why you're dragging HG into it, since I certainly didn't say anything about them. Yes, FASA thought they had the rights to the designs all sewn up, but they didn't. That's just a fact.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yes, I think you're reading too much into my reply. I don't care for Battletech, and my experiences with its fans has left me with a poor impression of them. I'm not sure why this bothers you so much, or why you want to change my mind.

I'm also not sure why you're dragging HG into it, since I certainly didn't say anything about them. Yes, FASA thought they had the rights to the designs all sewn up, but they didn't. That's just a fact.

Those are good points. It just felt like you were lumping me in with the offensive turds you've had the displeasure of dealing with. As for HG, I think it was the hatred for them that reading about the battletech ordeal brought up, as HG just has to firehose my favorite mecha franchises with piss. Also I hate them for their crappy business model and overly litigious nature.

It's fine that you don't like it, and I made an ass of myself trying to defend it. Fortunately I don't care about making an ass of myself. Battletech is important to me, a cherished memory, and like a 5 yr old on a playground, I get a bit riled up when someone starts bashing on stuff I like, based off a hasty generalization.

To be fair, though I was just kinda throwing most of it out there for everyone that asked. I wasn't trying to single you out from the crowd. Which is probably why your response felt condescending. My wording didn't really convey that intent though, so that was my bad.

[stray]

I'm not saying that makes it better, just different. If you sit down and read a star trek novel, or a star wars novel, you'll see something very similar, where you get fewer nameless red shirts, and more detail. The Next Generation era Star Trek series were better about this, not leaving so many nameless corpses.

Like I said, it's a difference in format that really makes the difference. I can't speak to the Macross novels or manga, as I can't read them, but the shows are lacking that kind of detail, and rightly so. Who wants to keep track of a million different named characters in a 30 minute episode? I came for sweet space fighter battles, kickass mecha fights, and sappy love triangles, with some music thrown in for flavor. I don't care about those one off characters that fly out and die just so the hero can look like a badass.

I feel like you're trying to compare something like Star Trek to 2001 because they both take place on spaceships in space.

Fundamentally Macross is about making peace a lot more than about war; I don't mean to discount your reasons for enjoying it but music (or its performer) isn't there for flavor as much as being a pillar of the franchise along with the mecha and the love triangles. Its been the predominant catalyst for making peace. And characters like Basara, Alto, or even Shin have been pacifists outright or threw down their arms entirely.

Invoking "professional soldiers" just seems like its a setup to an entirely different story with an entirely different theme. Which isn't to say that story would be bad or good, but I'm still a bit puzzled as to what it would look like or where it necessarily intersects.

Edited August 13, 2015 by stray

[Zinjo]

(And your understanding of who owns what in Macross is a little skewed... Studio Nue owns none of it on their own, besides credit for the original concept, and while Tatsunoko owns the overseas rights, they don't JUST own the overseas rights. their name is all over the Japanese DVD and BD sets, for example.)

Why would Tatsunoko's name be removed from SDFM or DYRL DVD or BD's when they participated in the animation production? Tats owns the actual animation of the series and possibly part of the DYRL movie (that is a mess no one wants to tackle) internationally. This has been established since 2003. SN and BW own the IP rights to the show, its characters and materials and have "Authors Rights" which give them control over derivative works.

HG bought up all the Trademarks for SDFM and even DYRL in the English and Spanish speaking world in 2006 IIRC when BW failed to challenge HG's annual trademark registration in the US as they always had. This is where the mess became a tangled legal spider web of who owns what and who can do what with that what....

................................

The easy way to look at it is simply, Tatsunoko owns the international rights to the SDFM animation itself and the international merchandizing rights, but no right to make any more film or animation based on the show. HG by extension has similar rights by virtue of their agreements with Tatsunoko and their spurious TM ownership of a brand they have not legitimate claim to.

Studio Nue and BigWest, own the IP rights, characters, designs, and all materials that went into making SDFM as well as "Author's Rights" which give them sole ability to make and profit from new Macross anime and films as they see fit. They don't own the animation rights to the SDF Macross show outside of Japan.

So the remastered BD release of SDFM in Japan will never be released in the West by a Western distributor. You would have to import it directly from Japan.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Zinjo

[Valkyrie Driver]

I feel like you're trying to compare something like Star Trek to 2001 because they both take place on spaceships in space.

Fundamentally Macross is about making peace a lot more than about war; I don't mean to discount your reasons for enjoying it but music (or its performer) isn't there for flavor as much as being a pillar of the franchise along with the mecha and the love triangles. Its been the predominant catalyst for making peace. And characters like Basara, Alto, or even Shin have been pacifists outright or threw down their arms entirely.

You bring up some interesting and good points. Macross actually hits on something really important, in regards to war. No one likes it, really. It's horrible, and wasteful, and full of sadness and despair. War is never a good thing, an nobody knows it better than the people that fight it. I greatly over simplified my love of Macross, for humor. As I could probably write an entire term paper on the subject of why I love Macross and the ultimate human desires reflected therein.

As for Basara, I have so many issues with him as a character, because I think he was overused, and under-realized. I thought that the Gamlin-Mylene dynamic would have been a much more fulfilling avenue, as they were from such different worlds. I also thought that done the way he was, he made a lousy central character, as he was just so one dimensional. Sure he tried to gain some depth, but then he charged off into a dogfight singing in this garishly colored, bonkers valkyrie, and then it was just back to square one. He was kinda disconnected from the plot and everything going on around him. He didn't grow (as I remember it, I'm trying to rewatch the series).

Invoking "professional soldiers" just seems like its a setup to an entirely different story with an entirely different theme. Which isn't to say that story would be bad or good, but I'm still a bit puzzled as to what it would look like or where it necessarily intersects.

Well, yeah, Battletech is a completely different premise and universe altogether. It's not trying to be anything but itself. The what if question was likely drawn from other contemporary Real Robot anime, like Mobile suit Gundam, where Amuro Ray starts out as a civilian, piloting an advance military prototype, Or Fang of the Sun Dougram, where it's a bunch of ragtag freedom fighters piloting these mechs, instead of trained soldiers. Like I said, Battletech took the line art, adjusted it a bit, and went it's own direction, not trying to be Dougram or Macross, or Crusher Joe, just be it's own thing.

I hope I'm explaining that so that it makes sense. Battletech was never trying to be anime, or insert itself in those worlds, it made up its own world, in which these giant walking war machines were [usually] piloted by trained pilots and supported by a professional military organization. It has it's own lore, history, and timeline completely separate from the original (anime) source material.

[VF5SS]

oh i love series about trained soldiers and their airplane based robots

[Gubaba]

Muv-Luv.Alternative.-.Total.Eclipse.full.1307401.jpg

oh i love series about trained soldiers and their airplane based robots

Gritty! (And no, I'm not being sarcastic.)

[stray]

As for Basara, I have so many issues with him as a character, because I think he was overused, and under-realized. I thought that the Gamlin-Mylene dynamic would have been a much more fulfilling avenue, as they were from such different worlds. I also thought that done the way he was, he made a lousy central character, as he was just so one dimensional. Sure he tried to gain some depth, but then he charged off into a dogfight singing in this garishly colored, bonkers valkyrie, and then it was just back to square one. He was kinda disconnected from the plot and everything going on around him. He didn't grow (as I remember it, I'm trying to rewatch the series).

So much hate for the Kai around here I thought Tenjin did Sound Force justice...

I know the premise of BT is more or less space empires in perpetual war; It sounds like you're more interested in grunts and action than something like Dune of Game of Thrones but as far as an anime take in line with the latter you may want to check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Its older (80's-90's) but it actually got licensed recently. Its pretty long and drawn out and honestly I could never make it through all of it but its definitely epic.

[Valkyrie Driver]

So much hate for the Kai around here I thought Tenjin did Sound Force justice...

I don't hate the Kai, so much as I dislike Basara. I think Seto put it beautifully, He's the worst parts of Kaifun and Minmay, his obnoxious pacifism, and her grating selfishness, and their combined lack of thought towards consequences. Basara gets away with murder (not literally, but you get my meaning). Pacifism is a great ideal, but it's sullied when you go and antagonize people. Now, Kaifun did that, and to my recollection Basara did not. Basara's complete disconnect from the consequences of his actions bothers me.

The Bonkers mech in it's gaudy red and yellow scheme is fine, it was the 90's and stuff was weird everywhere.

I know the premise of BT is more or less space empires in perpetual war; It sounds like you're more interested in grunts and action than something like Dune of Game of Thrones but as far as an anime take in line with the latter you may want to check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Its older (80's-90's) but it actually got licensed recently. Its pretty long and drawn out and honestly I could never make it through all of it but its definitely epic.

As for BattleTech, reading the novels, the Empire building and political intrigue is kind of a backdrop, it really tends to focus on the guys and girls that have to implement their lord's machinations. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the political intrigue as much as the next guy, but if that's all there was to the story it would be boring, because there's no humanity to it, you don't see the real consequences of those Machiavellian machinations. When the political intrigue cuts to the action and you see the guy on the ground, who's lord just left him high and dry with empty promises of reinforcements, it feels a bit more real. I like all that high level stuff when it drives the action, not the sole focus, not that I'm saying Dune and Game of Thrones are that way.

I might check out Legend of the Galactic Heroes, just to see what it's all about.

On a Macross related note, the mecha fights, and love triangles, and music are all part of it. I always describe Macross as a Love story set against the backdrop of a war story. Both are aspects of the story that are fundamental, and ultimately very human stories. As terrible as war is, it's the crucible in which we test ourselves. War brings out the best, and worst, in humanity, as does love. So, ultimately it boils down to the why in both cases. Macross explores both of those themes, and usually does a pretty good job of it. Music has always been a means of bearing your soul, to communicate your feelings, just like poetry. That that concept is central to Macross, makes it a pretty powerful delivery of the rest of the elements of the shows.

That's kind of a simplistic take on it, but there it is.

[Gubaba]

I don't hate the Kai, so much as I dislike Basara. I think Seto put it beautifully, He's the worst parts of Kaifun and Minmay, his obnoxious pacifism, and her grating selfishness, and their combined lack of thought towards consequences. Basara gets away with murder (not literally, but you get my meaning). Pacifism is a great ideal, but it's sullied when you go and antagonize people. Now, Kaifun did that, and to my recollection Basara did not. Basara's complete disconnect from the consequences of his actions bothers me.

The consequences of his actions being, of course, that the galaxy is saved and the remaining Protodeviln will stop trying to drain everyone of life-force.

Kaifun's "pacifism" was really inappropriate, given the context of Space War I. Basara's (which isn't really pacifism as much as it's intense desire for his music to accomplish anything he wants it to) is precisely what was needed in the Varauta Conflict.

And of course he gets away with murder. He's being sponsored by Max!

[stray]

Kaifun's "pacifism" was really inappropriate, given the context of Space War I. Basara's (which isn't really pacifism as much as it's intense desire for his music to accomplish anything he wants it to) is precisely what was needed in the Varauta Conflict.

I feel like that's a tough distinction, cause Kaifun claimed it but was basically a douche and more than likely just a coward; Basara on at least a couple of occasions I can think of refused to let someone resort to violence but would probably never call himself that.

Regardless, I kind of appreciate Basara's persistence so I'm kind of glad he didn't "grow". To each their own I suppose.

[Gubaba]

I feel like that's a tough distinction, cause Kaifun claimed it but was basically a douche and more than likely just a coward; Basara on at least a couple of occasions I can think of refused to let someone resort to violence but would probably never call himself that.

Regardless, I kind of appreciate Basara's persistence so I'm kind of glad he didn't "grow". To each their own I suppose.

As Blake put it, "If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise." Basara became wise.

[JB0]

Initially, Kaifun is thrown into the middle of a situation he doesn't understand. He truly believed that if everyone stopped shooting and just TALKED, the war would end. His ideals are put to the test, and bend to reality, seeing him become a direct participant in the largest offensive of the war. By the end of the war, he KNOWS there was never another choice but to fight.

I think it's far too easy to forget that, and project Kaifun the bitter troll onto Kaifun the naive pacifist. It does his character a disservice.

Certainly, he's a complete toolbox in the end, and I do not defend his character. But it isn't how he started.

He was, in the beginning, much like Basara, a man who believed there was always a peaceful resolution available. He just didn't have anima spiritia and a custom robojet-thing painted in the most ostentatious shade of red available.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The consequences of his actions being, of course, that the galaxy is saved and the remaining Protodeviln will stop trying to drain everyone of life-force.

Kaifun's "pacifism" was really inappropriate, given the context of Space War I. Basara's (which isn't really pacifism as much as it's intense desire for his music to accomplish anything he wants it to) is precisely what was needed in the Varauta Conflict.

And of course he gets away with murder. He's being sponsored by Max!

Ok, you're right the universe is saved, but it's he'd realized what was going on around him, and that he was getting in the way, maybe a lot less people might have had to suffer. I don't know, Maybe it's just my ingrained way of thinking, that clashes with Basara's characterization, and I just can't wrap my head around it. Or maybe it's that he just seems like a McGuffin, and not really a participant in the plot. I'm having a very hard time describing why I can't stand him.

Actions have consequences, sure ultimately the galaxy was saved, but there was probably an easier way, that didn't involve as many people getting hurt. Over all I liked M7, but there are things that bug me about it, and I can't really put my finger on them, except Basra (even then I can't even tell you why I hate him, only that I do) and the amount of filler (sure it's not DBZ levels of filler, but still).

I feel like that's a tough distinction, cause Kaifun claimed it but was basically a douche and more than likely just a coward; Basara on at least a couple of occasions I can think of refused to let someone resort to violence but would probably never call himself that.

I agree about Kaifun, as that's been my experience with that type of people.

[Gubaba]

Ok, you're right the universe is saved, but it's he'd realized what was going on around him, and that he was getting in the way, maybe a lot less people might have had to suffer.

......

Actions have consequences, sure ultimately the galaxy was saved, but there was probably an easier way, that didn't involve as many people getting hurt.

Racking my brains, I can't for the life of me figure out who suffered because of Basara... Except Gamlin.

[JB0]

Racking my brains, I can't for the life of me figure out who suffered because of Basara... Except Gamlin.

Are you saying Gamlin doesn't matter?!?!

[Gubaba]

Are you saying Gamlin doesn't matter?!?!

Well, he DID get Milia's Valk destroyed so yeah, no sympathy.

Although later, he does at least TRY to get down with the cool kids...

Edited August 15, 2015 by Gubaba

[JB0]

Well, he DID get Milia's Valk destroyed so yeah, no sympathy.

Fair enough. To heck with Gamlin.

[grigolosi]

Also what was up with the dark overlord of the vampires hair style? He kinda looked like a young grandpa Munster!

[Valkyrie Driver]

Racking my brains, I can't for the life of me figure out who suffered because of Basara... Except Gamlin.

I can't help but think about those poor sods in the VF-11's that had to dodge around his asinine behavior and got zombified because of it. At least that's how I perceived it. I can't help but see Basara as a disruption to everything around him. I also can't help but think how selfish he is, "I'm going to jump in my garish VF-19, fly around, shoot everything with my speakerpods, and sing real loudly. All because I want people to hear my songs..." He's screaming "Look at me! I'm special and you must listen to my song!" I can't stand that sort of selfish attention seeking behavior. His motivations about wanting people to get along and wanting to bring people together through his music, is great. Forcing it on people, while getting in their way, and preventing them from doing their jobs, just makes them hate you.

If they were using him for Psyops and EW, that's one thing, but he's just out there being made of dicks, and giving zero frakks about who gets hurt or zombified in the process. That's just the way I see it. Disagree all you want, I can respect that you disagree, but I'm still not gonna see it your way, and your way isn't the right way. Because it's art, and we all take something unique to ourselves away from it.

Then there's how they tried to replicate his success, by creating the jamming birds, but failed because only he can generate the anima spiritia. He's not a character, he's a McGuffin.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Also what was up with the dark overlord of the vampires hair style? He kinda looked like a young grandpa Munster!

I wondered the same thing... He's only some mutton chops away from trying to be wolverine...

[Gubaba]

I can't help but think about those poor sods in the VF-11's that had to dodge around his asinine behavior and got zombified because of it.

Huh... I don't remember anyone, from the grunts on up, ever mentioning that in the show. Which episode(s) are you referring to?

[Renato]

Valkyrie Driver -- You ARE Gamlin!!

[Renato]

The idea of the attempt to replicate his success with the Jammingbirds and its subsequent failure is actually one of the greatest things in M7, in my opinion. I see that as a statement against manufactured pop idol disposeable music that cannot hope to emulate the passion of a true musician... It ties in well with Basara's disinterest in all things to do with the music business, the recording of the single, the filming of the music video, etc... And then they went and undid all of that with Frontier!! Suddenly idols are OK now! Bleah

[JB0]

If they were using him for Psyops and EW, that's one thing...

You're makin' a great point and I'mma let you finish, but... Basara was actually working in the service of the military, his VF-19 was supplied and maintained by the military, and the upper command of the Mac7 fleet was running interference for him because he WAS a military psyops mission.

Then there's how they tried to replicate his success, by creating the jamming birds, but failed because only he can generate the anima spiritia.

So they created Sound Force instead, and it worked.

He's not a character, he's a McGuffin.

I've described him as a force of nature, but... yes.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

And it's all largely reasonable analysis of the situation, sabotaged by the fact that the story, of course, ignores some of the more realistic consequences that would result from Basara's behavior* in favor of the kinda silly super-robotish take on things the writers were going for.

*In both directions. Those speaker pods are INSANELY dangerous from any rational perspective, and he's firing them with reckless abandon at targets he has no desire whatsoever to injure. To say nothing of Speaker Pod Gamma.

I, too, am Gamlin.