Discovery of Macross?

[grigolosi]

It was the whole music making the rocks float without any attempt at explaining it. Just like the confusion that seems to occur over the age of the birdman AI. Aires Turner stating well its over 10,000 yrs old but the exact age is classified and no one in this briefing can hear that number.Thats like the government briefing someone and saying " yeah there are UFO's at Area 51 but you can't know what color they are because that detail is classified !"

[Brand-X]

Just like how in the recent Thor movies our hero can summon lightning at a whim, and describes it as science and magic being the same thing to his people. Sorry, it's still magic.

Or we could just pull out that ever so famous quote regarding highly advanced technology.

[Gubaba]

It was the whole music making the rocks float without any attempt at explaining it. Just like the confusion that seems to occur over the age of the birdman AI. Aires Turner stating well its over 10,000 yrs old but the exact age is classified and no one in this briefing can hear that number.Thats like the government briefing someone and saying " yeah there are UFO's at Area 51 but you can't know what color they are because that detail is classified !"

Why couldn't it have been the Bird-human making the rocks float?

[grigolosi]

I myself was under the impression that the Bird man was asleep or dorment. The islanders were concerned with him being awakened. Also they stated that he had finally been awakened in the last episode. I know the AI was capable of advance gravity control but I do believe that it was dorment.

[Gubaba]

Well, he was awake enough to look at Mao "kissing" Shin...

[grigolosi]

That was when he began to awaken though. Now the songs affecting the growth of the life around Sara I believe had to do with fold waves of some type being emanated from her but they never delved into this either. Doctor Turners hand held cyclops system was picking those up as she was singing. I think they should have delved more into the genetic connection her and her family had to the Protoculture. Since so little has been revealed about the Protoculture, that I think would have shed more light on how and why some of this was happening. The AI was linked to the Priestess's family to the point where it could be affected by their emotional state like the Vajra were with Ranka. This was demonstrated by the way it reacted to her that moment she thought Shin had been killed. Now it is possible that she was able to manipulate the AI's gravity control through her link with it. It would have helped if there had been some sequence or explanation how Sara's family was linked to the AI.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Also, did anyone else find it a little odd that Roy had this whole love interest angle going on with Aries, when SDF Macross always made it seem to me that he and Claudia had been together in a fairly long-term, committed relationship? That's the way I took it, at least. To me it seemed weird that a year before Macross begins there's simply no mention of Claudia at all.

If you'll remember back to the flashback episode of SDFM, Claudia states that, while they knew each other, they didn't become a couple until Roy was stationed at South Ataria Island, while working on the VF-X-1 project. So that leaves plenty of room in the story line for other things to happen.

[Gubaba]

That was when he began to awaken though. Now the songs affecting the growth of the life around Sara I believe had to do with fold waves of some type being emanated from her but they never delved into this either. Doctor Turners hand held cyclops system was picking those up as she was singing. I think they should have delved more into the genetic connection her and her family had to the Protoculture. Since so little has been revealed about the Protoculture, that I think would have shed more light on how and why some of this was happening. The AI was linked to the Priestess's family to the point where it could be affected by their emotional state like the Vajra were with Ranka. This was demonstrated by the way it reacted to her that moment she thought Shin had been killed. Now it is possible that she was able to manipulate the AI's gravity control through her link with it. It would have helped if there had been some sequence or explanation how Sara's family was linked to the AI.

I dunno, it still seems to me that you're speculating, and then slamming the series based on that speculation.

As for going into more explanations, I remember when George Lucas decided to explain some of the science behind the Force. It, um, wasn't a choice that was universally loved.

[grigolosi]

I am not necessarily slamming the series. I enjoyed it but I myself was more fascinated in the Protoculture aspect of the story itself. Yes I am speculating but this is what I have concluded from watching it numerous times and putting together the information given. They focused so much on developing the character relationships that other aspects of the story were left to the side leaving people scratching their heads and asking questions. I believe that 5 episodes weren't enough to tell the story they were telling. Basically to me it was like being given a taste of a tiny piece of cake and then not being given the rest. I mean seroiusly why was Dr. Turner getting a PCS response on her cross dimensional radar while Sara was singing in the pool? Was the AI an observer, creator, destroyer or both and why was there Alpha bombay blood type coming form it. Those are the kind of questions I was asking at the end.

Edited July 29, 2015 by grigolosi

[Valkyrie Driver]

Maybe they wanted to leave those questions, because they didn't have the answers, and wanted an avenue to expand the franchise? Who knows, but when it comes to Macross, I just sit back and enjoy the ride, asking these kinds of questions lead to the kinds of unsatisfactory answers that Lucas gave, or that you get in Warhammer 40k, or really in any other Sci-Fi universe (people have been making tachyon jokes since it was used as the de facto explanation for everything in Star Trek...).

[grigolosi]

Very true Driver. Believe me I do sit and enjoy the series ( well all except 7, I got tired of hearing Basara yell for everyone to listen to his song). You would be surprised at how much time I spend at home thinking about these questions from Macross though. Lately it has been the reaction turbine engines and that damn heat dissipation question! I am not too knowledgeable on Warhammer but I will take your word for it.

[Valkyrie Driver]

The reaction engine also troubles me too. but there's some stuff earlier in this topic about it, as well as a ton of speculation here.

[Gubaba]

Again, it's a show with planes that turn into robots. The fundamental premise is completely unscientific.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Again, it's a show with planes that turn into robots. The fundamental premise is completely unscientific.

SILENCE! Let us have our fun...

You're right of course, but who's to say that it might not actually be the basis for a real world design that revolutionizes sub-orbital flight?

[stray]

They focused so much on developing the character relationships that other aspects of the story were left to the side leaving people scratching their heads and asking questions.

I'm pretty sure that's by design. Moreover, I don't really think Zero was intended to be an exposition on Protoculture technology as much as the level at which they operated, at least when it came to their later genetic manipulation experiments. I think its fairly apparent the bird human served at least as a god in the creation myth and a failsafe.

I've been getting back into the franchise and have been tempted to make a topic on the Vajra... the movie and series interpretations are just so, so different. The series really left it at 'generic space bug' in the vein of the Formics; I thought the movies really did a good job of rolling back the trope and really giving insight into the Vajra and the fold network through the characters rather than by dwelling on the technical.

I suppose I would not complain if a Giorgio Tsoukalos character showed up in delta to explain everything to us though...

Edited July 29, 2015 by stray

[grigolosi]

Yeah I thought they did also. But like you said they used the characters to explain the different back questions that would arise. It is shame they didn't do that with Zero. I know a lot of folks didn't care for the Vara aspect in MF. I myself had no issue with them. It went away from the normal bad guy that was upfront and raving on about their plans and goals. It put you on your feet thinking ok how do you deal with an enemy who's intentions are unknown and you can't even communicate with. On top of that they adapt quickly due to their hive mind mentality which is completely alien to our way of thinking, learning, and living.

[JB0]

As for going into more explanations, I remember when George Lucas decided to explain some of the science behind the Force. It, um, wasn't a choice that was universally loved.

I think I ranted during Frontier about their explaining why there's a time difference between the folks inside a space fold and the folks outside it.

(I still maintain that it was dumb and inconsistent.)

[Valkyrie Driver]

M7's villains were too much the saturday morning cartoon variety. Not every villain has to be the cloak and dagger type where you don't actually know what they're planning until too late. I still enjoy a bit more complexity, as it feels more real. I do like it better when the bad guys don't go around with a neon sign that says "I'M A VILLAIN!"

In that aspect frontier really managed to get my attention, in the same way as SDFM did. M+ was a different kind of story, and the history between Isamu and Guld really made their animosity pop, and the resolution was great when Guld finally realized what had actually happened. M7 was very straightforward, to start with, and things began to get more complicated, but not overly so (it's been a while since I watched it, so I could be mis-remembering things).

Anyway, The universe as a whole is just great, and lots of fun to explore.

[stray]

It put you on your feet thinking ok how do you deal with an enemy who's intentions are unknown and you can't even communicate with. On top of that they adapt quickly due to their hive mind mentality which is completely alien to our way of thinking, learning, and living.

I'm not entirely sure the "hive mind" explanation is accurate in the context of the movie canon, which seems much more in line with Zero. edit: Plus, that piece of exposition was provided by Leon. I'll start a new thread though, I'd rather not derail this one entirely.

I was a Robotech kid, BTW, I guess I was 10 or so when I saw it in the 80's and loved the Macross "Saga." Even at 10 I was pretty much like... "this is different and crap!" when it transitioned into Southern Cross, but I always hoped for some kind of real continuation especially after learning more about Macross. I had known of Macross 7 since not long after it aired but it took me years to find it in English. It was literally everything had I hoped for and more. I suppose that might be a minority opinion...

Edited July 30, 2015 by stray

[Primus1X]

I bought Macross Plus Ultimate Edition on a bargain and I started from there.

[Dio]

As an 80's kid, I grew up primarily watching Transformers, but Robotech was another interesting show with transforming robots so I watched it too. Around 1990, a few friends and I were digging thru the box of Betamax tapes and stumbled across some Southern Cross eps I had recorded randomly, and were immediately hooked trying to find more. I then picked up Robotech Volume 3 (the only one on the shelf) from the 6-volume set, which began with Gloval's Report and summarized the first half of the show before carrying thru to Roy's death, so pretty much the meatiest volume I could get. I went on to get 4-6 over the next few years, and when the internet came about I was involved on a fan mailing list talking about RT for some time.

We caught Macross II at Suncoast Video when it first came out, and same story for Mac+. We also got into the Palladium RPGs thru high school, as well as bootleg anime from our local comic shop. I still have a couple of Protoculture Addicts magazines from that time, too.

7 I discovered in college (bootleg VCD's), then heard about Zero thru the grapevine, and joined MW about that same time. The rest is pretty much shared history with y'all

[Valkyrie Driver]

Looking back, I think my first real introduction to Macross was Macross 2, I saw it on one of the movie channels and loved it. Then I learned about the Macross/Robotech connection to Battletech, and then Macross Plus was the first Macross production I went out of my way to watch. Ever since I've been a VF-19 fan.

[Gubaba]

Speaking frankly, as bad as Robotech fans are, I think Battletech fans are worse.

Both insist that Japanese media shouldn't target the Japanese public, but Battletech fans are way more obnoxious about it.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Speaking frankly, as bad as Robotech fans are, I think Battletech fans are worse.

Both insist that Japanese media shouldn't target the Japanese public, but Battletech fans are way more obnoxious about it.

Can you expand on that? I guess I don't understand. It's pretty obvious to me, that media should be targeted to the audience you're broadcasting to. I mean, that's your market, so you tailor your product to your target market.

As I understand it, Battletech originally set out as a "what if" project with japanese mecha. What if highly trained military pilots were operating these mecha instead of 15 year old kids with little to no training? And that it set out to ground it firmly in science fiction (attempting explanations of how things worked).

So as I understand it (now, I could be very wrong, I'm not 100% on the particulars), Battletech was an attempt to adapt Japanese real robot mecha, to a western cultural understanding. I like battletech, it's a fun universe to play around in, it's a rich and creative setting, with an original take on the real robot genre. In fact it's probably the single largest influence in the western understanding of the genre.

Macross (through robotech), Dougram, and Crusher Joe, were all source material for something that became unique and original. Let's not forget that Harmony Gold has pissed on Battletech fans almost, if not just, as much as they have on Macross, Mospeada, and Southern Cross fans. Battletech uses our favorite Mecha as source material, and in fact acknowledges that by not being a copy/paste from said source material.

Not trying to argue, because I don't have all the facts, nor your particular experience. I'm just trying to understand your statement.

Edited August 9, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[Gubaba]

As I understand it, back when it was Battledroids, Battletech was an attempt to build a crappy RPG around designs from Macross, Dougram, and Crusher Joe.

In more recent years, it's turned into idiots championing the so-called "original" designs of Battletech over those lousy Japanese designs. They also seem to think that giant robots can be made somehow practical, which may be possible, but not by some chumps aping anime designs and saying they're totally original.

[Gerli]

Robotech in '85/86, then Macross Plus in 96...

[Valkyrie Driver]

As I understand it, back when it was Battledroids, Battletech was an attempt to build a crappy RPG around designs from Macross, Dougram, and Crusher Joe.

In more recent years, it's turned into idiots championing the so-called "original" designs of Battletech over those lousy Japanese designs. They also seem to think that giant robots can be made somehow practical, which may be possible, but not by some chumps aping anime designs and saying they're totally original.

Ok, Now I think I understand. Personally I loved the old Unseen stuff, that is all the designs borrowed from anime. The Stinger (based on the VF-1A, for those unfamiliar) and the Warhammer (Based on the Tomahawk Destroid) were and are two of my favorite designs. I do like some of the original designs that FASA came up with but not as much as the Iconic designs that were borrowed from Macross.

The games that Battletech has become, both the tabletop game and the RPG, are actually quite fun, and the universe is fun to explore. I never knew it when it was Battledroids, so I can't speak to the quality of that game. I only know Battletech which isn't bad, though some of the new designs they have done are kind of bad.

Even though I've been a battletech fan much longer than I have been a Macross fan, I still recognize that Battletech was an outgrowth from the Japanese Real Robot mecha genre. Even though it's connected in the real world, it's a completely separate entity now, and I treat it as such. The people saying that it's completely original are ignoring the franchise's genesis, and are deluding themselves. The Designs they are using now are "Original" in that we haven't seen the elements combined in that way before. If I could find a VF-1A (in all three modes) that scales with Battletech minis I'd have them because I love the Stinger LAM.

Every fanbase is going to have those obnoxious idiots. After all, we watch anime, we must be obsessive Japanophiles that live in our parents basements right? I can tell you I don't fit that stereotype, and I'm pretty sure that most of you don't fit it either.

Anyway, Battletech led to my (and many others) discovery of Macross, so it can't be all bad right?

Edited August 11, 2015 by Valkyrie Driver

[VF5SS]

It was the whole music making the rocks float without any attempt at explaining it.

The only rocks that floated were the ones with the markings. Same with the totem.

It's Birdhuman reactive floating paint.

[JB0]

The only rocks that floated were the ones with the markings. Same with the totem.

It still didn't make sense why the rocks responded, though. It wasn't rock music.

[VF5SS]

It still didn't make sense why the rocks responded, though. It wasn't rock music.

[big F]

.If I could find a VF-1A (in all three modes) that scales with Battletech minis I'd have them because I love the Stinger LAM.

The lead figures were produced by Ral Partner who were just down the road a couple of miles from where I lived at the time. Tried for a job there once. I have the figure for all three modes. IIRC also for the Phoenix too.

It's on my list of things to recast once I get time as I'd love a chess set with them all in.

[Gubaba]

Ok, Now I think I understand. Personally I loved the old Unseen stuff, that is all the designs borrowed from anime. The Stinger (based on the VF-1A, for those unfamiliar) and the Warhammer (Based on the Tomahawk Destroid) were and are two of my favorite designs. I do like some of the original designs that FASA came up with but not as much as the Iconic designs that were borrowed from Macross.

The games that Battletech has become, both the tabletop game and the RPG, are actually quite fun, and the universe is fun to explore. I never knew it when it was Battledroids, so I can't speak to the quality of that game. I only know Battletech which isn't bad, though some of the new designs they have done are kind of bad.

Even though I've been a battletech fan much longer than I have been a Macross fan, I still recognize that Battletech was an outgrowth from the Japanese Real Robot mecha genre. Even though it's connected in the real world, it's a completely separate entity now, and I treat it as such. The people saying that it's completely original are ignoring the franchise's genesis, and are deluding themselves. The Designs they are using now are "Original" in that we haven't seen the elements combined in that way before. If I could find a VF-1A (in all three modes) that scales with Battletech minis I'd have them because I love the Stinger LAM.

Every fanbase is going those obnoxious idiots. After all, we watch anime, we must be obsessive Japanophiles that live in our parents basements right? I can tell you I don't fit that stereotype, and I'm pretty sure that most of you don't fit it either.

Anyway, Battletech led to my (and many others) discovery of Macross, so it can't be all bad right?

So it's like a prostitute who marries well and is now a respectable society lady?

[Valkyrie Driver]

So it's like a prostitute who marries well and is now a respectable society lady?

Yep. Because not all prostitutes wanted to be prostitutes. I still really can't understand your hate for BattleTech, sure there are some of the fans that can be obnoxious, but like I said, every fanbase, for anything is going to have those people. What it has become is much more than what it started as.

[Mr March]

Yeah, we don't have those kind fans here...lol

I like the Mechwarrior/Battletech style. It's a valuable creative perspective on mecha. And so many amazing mechanical designs. Love em to bits

Though I don't really like those old Macross-appropriated designs from the Valkyries. The Destroids at least stylistically fit into the Mechwarrior/Battletech aesthetic, but not the valkyries. I'm glad they've moved away from using the more hyper-stylized Japanese designs. I wouldn't want to see those return to MW/BT.

[Valkyrie Driver]

Yeah, we don't have those kind fans here...lol

I like the Mechwarrior/Battletech style. It's a valuable creative perspective on mecha. And so many amazing mechanical designs. Love em to bits

Though I don't really like those old Macross-appropriated designs from the Valkyries. The Destroids at least stylistically fit into the Mechwarrior/Battletech aesthetic, but not the valkyries. I'm glad they've moved away from using the more hyper-stylized Japanese designs. I wouldn't want to see those return to MW/BT.

I agree, mostly. I really liked the stinger, the Unseen version much more so than the Reseen version. The other VF-1 based designs not so much, the VF-1A the way they adapted it, just seemed to fit.

I can remember discussing Battletech with someone at my local hobby shop when I was much younger, and mentioning that it would be great if battletech had a mech that transformed into a fighter. I was pointed to the novel Freebirth (in which the LAM's play a significant role), and to the internet for more information (as I had come into battletech after the whole unseen thing).

Of course I did a bit of research as to why I'd never seen them, and discovered the link to Macross (which I had already been introduced to through Macross 2).

They way they adapted the Glaug into the Marauder also seemed to fit too. The regult based designs seemed a bit wonky.

As long as our chosen works of fiction are appreciated in the proper context, it's never bad. Except Twilight, that's universally bad and should never be appreciated by anyone ever... except as the measuring stick of badness. Seriously, it's literally the only book I would burn, I wouldn't even condone burning Mein Kampf, that's how important I think books are (even ones with terrible content).