The curious case of the VF-22S's guns

[sketchley]

I am so tired of you guys mentioning anime magic.

stop

OK. cartoon magic.

[ChronoReverse]

Do we know that the VF-19 has the "through the floor" monitors? I'm thinking that was a YF-19 thing, that was deemed too expensive/impractical for mass-production. (much like the YF-21's BDI system)

Well, Basara's VF-19 has it for sure. If you watch The Galaxy is Calling Me, you can see the lower screens with the kid sitting on them.

[Talos]

Do we know that the VF-19 has the "through the floor" monitors? I'm thinking that was a YF-19 thing, that was deemed too expensive/impractical for mass-production. (much like the YF-21's BDI system)

Well, Basara's VF-19 has it for sure. If you watch The Galaxy is Calling Me, you can see the lower screens with the kid sitting on them.

Yep, definitely there in both Basara's VF-19 and the VF-19F/S.

http://www.macross2....-19-cockpit.gif

[Renato]

I am so tired of you guys mentioning anime magic.

stop

I don't mind the term if it is used properly. But the one I hate is "animation error", like it's a catch-all term for anything people don't agree with now. Animation errors happen, yes, like when cels do not line up properly, or when outsourced studios do not check the setting materials or storyboards properly when drawing keyframes. But most of the time things that people describe/dismiss as an animation error are certainly not simple "mistakes".

[David Hingtgen]

Well, Basara's is still a one-off more-expensive-than-others prototype.

[VF5SS]

The little cross hatching on the VF-19S cockpit is there to tell the animators there's a screen there. The Battroid egress hatch lineart has little labels that say "screen."

[anime52k8]

Do we know that the VF-19 has the "through the floor" monitors? I'm thinking that was a YF-19 thing, that was deemed too expensive/impractical for mass-production. (much like the YF-21's BDI system)

well the monitors themselves are going to have to be there for battroid mode. It is possible however, that they left out the external camera's that would let it work in fighter mode. (that seem's to be the case on the VF-25).

BTW, I like your new avatar.

Edited December 6, 2011 by anime52k8

[Reïvaj]

I don't mind the term if it is used properly. But the one I hate is "animation error", like it's a catch-all term for anything people don't agree with now. Animation errors happen, yes, like when cels do not line up properly, or when outsourced studios do not check the setting materials or storyboards properly when drawing keyframes. But most of the time things that people describe/dismiss as an animation error are certainly not simple "mistakes".

Not to mention that animation is generally speaking not meant to be seen frame by frame, which is sometimes the only possible way to notice those inconsistencies.

well the monitors themselves are going to have to be there for battroid mode.[...]

Good point.

[Talos]

well the monitors themselves are going to have to be there for battroid mode. It is possible however, that they left out the external camera's that would let it work in fighter mode. (that seem's to be the case on the VF-25).

I don't mean to cause offense, but I think that theory is just plain silly. The YF-19 has monitors like that, the VF-19F/S line art shows it, and the VF-19 kai obviously has it. There's no reason for them to leave the cameras out and put the screens in, especially since they're the same type of cameras that would be used in battroid mode as well.

With the VF-25 series, we can probably just chalk it up to the focus on the EX-Gear. It does look to have quite a bit of kibble when it's in the cockpit, as can be seen here. There's not much room for monitors like that to be installed.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/macrossf/vf-25f/vf-25-cockpit2.gif

[ChronoReverse]

The real question is what Graham brought up though, why didn't max use the forearm beam cannons. The only reasonable explanation is that the beam cannons use the same fuel source to generate their "plasma" as the reaction engines use for fuel. Max may have been low on fuel and opted not use the beam cannons becuase he knew he wouldn't have fuel to make his escape if he started openning fire with the beam cannons.

Here's something even more weird. Max used those beams just minutes before while in fighter mode to shoot the automated laser drones. They even draw the emitters on his arms when he runs out of ammo.

With that said, there was precisely 5 seconds between running out of ammo and Basara arriving. When I think about it, Max still could have switched to them after his "last words".

Edited December 7, 2011 by ChronoReverse

[Reïvaj]

So no gun pods at all here?

[ChronoReverse]

They never used their gunpods in that scene. Maybe they swapped both out for reaction missiles.

[VF5SS]

THE PLOT THICKENS!

[David Hingtgen]

It's further evidence for the either-or theory, though.

[Reïvaj]

It's further evidence for the either-or theory, though.

I believe so.

[Graham]

Do we know that the VF-19 has the "through the floor" monitors? I'm thinking that was a YF-19 thing, that was deemed too expensive/impractical for mass-production. (much like the YF-21's BDI system)

Yes they do. The 'This is Animation Material, Macross 7' book clearly shows that both the VF-19Kai and VF-19S have the through the floor monitors.

Graham

[s001]

Aren't 19 and 22 supposed to be special operations and elite squad fighters only?

[JB0]

VF-19 is supposed to be mainstream, a replacement for the VF-11.

VF-22, however, is an elite special forces plane, and replaces the VF-17. IT does NOT replace the VF-19, no matter how hard I wish.

This is, of course, because the VF-22 is AWESOME.

Edited December 18, 2011 by JB0

[azrael]

VF-22, however, is an elite special forces plane, and replaces the VF-17.

Fixed.

[Reïvaj]

Yes they do. The 'This is Animation Material, Macross 7' book clearly shows that both the VF-19Kai and VF-19S have the through the floor monitors.

Graham

What about the VF-17? I think it does to.

[Graham]

What about the VF-17? I think it does to.

Yes, the VF-17 does, both to the rear, to give the pilot better rearward visability and also down by his feet.

Graham

[Raptor One]

VF-19 is supposed to be mainstream, a replacement for the VF-11.

Key phrase being "supposed to be"

[David Hingtgen]

Think of it like the F-15 vs F-16. Both are "common" but one is a lot less common and more expensive than the other and only given to those squadrons that really need it. But not so much so that it's considered elite/special-ops-only.

The VF-19 is the F-15, the VF-11 is the F-16.

[sketchley]

Think of it like the F-15 vs F-16. Both are "common" but one is a lot less common and more expensive than the other and only given to those squadrons that really need it. But not so much so that it's considered elite/special-ops-only.

The VF-19 is the F-15, the VF-11 is the F-16.

I don't think that's the best comparison. Mainly because of the generation gap between the VF-11 and VF-19.

Perhaps a better one would be:

the VF-11 is the F-4

the VF-19 is the F-15.

Though, it'd probably make a bit more sense to add:

the VF-25 is a cross between the the F-22 & the F-35 (former for the capability jump, later for the still-in-testing and development aspects)

[Talos]

I don't think that's the best comparison. Mainly because of the generation gap between the VF-11 and VF-19.

Perhaps a better one would be:

the VF-11 is the F-4

the VF-19 is the F-15.

Though, it'd probably make a bit more sense to add:

the VF-25 is a cross between the the F-22 & the F-35 (former for the capability jump, later for the still-in-testing and development aspects)

I've always thought of the VF-19 like the F-22. It was a massive improvement over the fighter it replaced in both stealthiness and sheer performance. Being too expensive, though, a cheaper replacement is bought instead and the VF-19 production ends pretty quickly. That one of course being the VF-171 as the F-35 is to the F-22.

The VF-19 also played the F-22's role in the AVF program in Plus, compared to the real world ATF program.

[JB0]

Fixed.

Whoops!

Either I was just in a groove and not ready to stop typing 19 yet, or my personal fantasies are creeping out and that's how I think it SHOULD happen.

You decide.

I've always thought of the VF-19 like the F-22. It was a massive improvement over the fighter it replaced in both stealthiness and sheer performance. Being too expensive, though, a cheaper replacement is bought instead and the VF-19 production ends pretty quickly. That one of course being the VF-171 as the F-35 is to the F-22.

It's a bit more complex than that, since VF production isn't centralized.

As I understand it, colony fleets have a high degree of autonomy, and many choose not to gear up for the latest and greatest when there's something cheaper and good enough available.

If I recall, this is part of why there aren't a lot of VF-4s out there, either. As cool a plane as it was, it just didn't fit the budget and needs of most of the colony fleets, so they didn't adopt it.

I imagine you'd see the highest adoption of high-end fighters, be they the VF-4 in it's day or the VF-19 in the "modern" era, in fleets that had actually encountered hostile forces.

But then, Frontier never geared up for VF-19 production after the Vajra showed up, so... go figure.

...

Maybe Frontier held off because the VF-25 was so close to final approval, and who wants to retool to build a whole new fleet of planes that's ALREADY obsolete? But then there's the VF-171 EX... which has the advantage of being a partial retool instead of a whole new product?

I dunno.

Edited December 18, 2011 by JB0

[ChronoReverse]

I feel that part of the problem is how difficult it was to handle the 19 and the 21/22. Performance enhancements aside, the EX-Gear along with the Inertial Store were extremely important breakthroughs for the 25, reducing the physical load on the pilots and making it less punishingly difficult to fly.

[VF5SS]

The VF-22S is a beautiful sea bird and there are none other like it

[twich]

the thing about the VF-22S is that even though it appears later in the series right besides the VF-19F/S/Kai, we see the "ace pilots" flying the bird, giving the idea and credence that the performance of the Sturmvogel is higher than the VF-19. That being said, I would like to think that it could hold both gunpods along with reaction missiles in both bays, but realistically (as much as Macross can get) I tend to agree with the theory that it is an "Gunpod or reaction missile" I think that things are being stretched as it is to have such a thin side profile as the VF-22S boasts and mount weapons inside the leg storage covers and be realistic. I would have preferred the gunpods be mounted on the outside, like the YF-21. The guns are supposed to have stealth coverings, so no loss of stealth there.

Now here is something else, how do the micro-missiles that are stored in the internal pallets feed to both the dorsal launchers (4 black diamond shaped things on back) and also the leg bay covers? Since the leg bay covers move and I assume are not connected to the main body, just the legs, how is it feasible to have missiles fed to the, unless there is a missile magazine in the leg bay covers as well, which doesn't seem possible.....All this supposition is making my head hurt, back to programming kids toys for Christmas for me!

Twich

[eugimon]

Given that plus shows the yf-19 outclassing the 22, I never quite understood why in 7 the 22 was the ace/special forces valk and the 19 was the new mainline valk... was it just that Isamu out flew Guld?

[David Hingtgen]

Isamu didn't have mental issues with a mentally-controlled valk...

[sketchley]

Now here is something else, how do the micro-missiles that are stored in the internal pallets feed to both the dorsal launchers (4 black diamond shaped things on back) and also the leg bay covers? Since the leg bay covers move and I assume are not connected to the main body, just the legs, how is it feasible to have missiles fed to the, unless there is a missile magazine in the leg bay covers as well, which doesn't seem possible.....All this supposition is making my head hurt, back to programming kids toys for Christmas for me!

Twich

Simple: separate magazines. The dorsal micro-missile launchers are also present on the YF-21, which doesn't have the ventral weapon pallets/micro-missile launchers/internal gun pod storage rack/whathaveyou.

Given that plus shows the yf-19 outclassing the 22, I never quite understood why in 7 the 22 was the ace/special forces valk and the 19 was the new mainline valk... was it just that Isamu out flew Guld?

It could be a case of art reflecting life. With the real world planes that the YF-19 and YF-21 are based off of, even though what became the F-22 had higher manueverability, the YF-23 apparently had a higher top speed and was stealthier. Scratch the former, and you have a strong reason why the VF-22 is a special forces fighter.

[ChronoReverse]

It could be a case of art reflecting life. With the real world planes that the YF-19 and YF-21 are based off of, even though what became the F-22 had higher manueverability, the YF-23 apparently had a higher top speed and was stealthier. Scratch the former, and you have a strong reason why the VF-22 is a special forces fighter.

Elaborating on this, both the YF-22 and the YF-23 matched and exceeded the requirements for the ATF competition. However, the design of the YF-23 was more "experimental" and the manufacturer wasn't able to prove that it could be mass produced by the deadline. For example, the neat ceramic tile design needed to keep the YF-23 engines from melting wasn't demonstrably mass produceable in time.

For a front-line fighter, the YF-19 was certainly less complex to manufacture since it didn't rely on bleeding edge technologies like the deformable wing, detachable limbs, QQR Inertial Vector system and the Brain-Direct systems. Furthermore, all that advanced technology only produced a plane that's at best marginally better than what the YF-19 offered. Even if the YF-21 had won, it would have had to undergo a redesign in order to remove the BDS and deformable wings, increasing time to delivery and cost.

Edited December 21, 2011 by ChronoReverse

[eugimon]

Hmmm, I guess that makes sense...ish. Thanks for the replies

[David Hingtgen]

There's always conservatism---an oft-cited part of YF-22 vs YF-23 is that the YF-22 looked like a logical advancement/upgrade of the F-15, while the YF-23 was a revolution--and many a general didn't like the "new-fangled-looking" one. Heck, the USAF doesn't like canards, they sure weren't going to like the v-tailed diamond-winged YF-23...

Following that--which valk looks more traditional? Certainly not the one that's a Q-Rau with wings...