The curious case of the VF-22S's guns

[VF5SS]

So most of us who are on top of these things are aware of how the YF-21 stores its unique dual gun pods.

http://macross2.net/...hter-gunpod.gif

like that

But the finalized VF-22S seems to store them wherever anime girls store their mallets (old joke).

http://macross2.net/...hterventral.gif

Now the underside has been modified with what looks like a pair of enclosures for the gun pods, but the general shape does not match the shape of the gun pods. In fact they appear to be simple beam weapons that were added to the design. Additionally, the VF-22S is seen launching a reaction missile from the rear of those enclosures as they split at the middle seam to deploy the missile.

Pole Star confirmed!

As the VF-22S transforms the gun pod comes from the ether as this is a design that only shows up at the very end and didn't warrant that much attention to it.

As an amusing goof, the VF-22S from VF-X2 has YF-21 style ventral plates where its gun pods are visibly stored.

So because the Pens v. Caps game is kind of dull I'm here to ponder this mystery.

Was the VF-22S ever meant to carry gun pods? Was there an unseen new gun pod that would actually fit inside the modified ventral plates? Does anyone really care (I do)?

Edited December 2, 2011 by VF5SS

[twich]

That is interesting to ponder, to maintain the example of games, Macross Ace Frontier gives Milia's VF-22S 1 gunpod mounted onthe outside of the leg bay cover plate, like what the YF-21 shows. Who really knows?

Twich

[Renato]

I thought they were storage bays on the underside of the fighter which were primarily for the gunpods but could also house the reaction missiles. Notice that after planting that missile, Max transforms into battroid and equips a single gunpod to shoot the baddies -- presumably because he had nowhere to stow a second one. Then he runs out of ammo, though.

The shape being "wrong" never bothered me because there is so much magic going on with the proportions of the 21/22 anyway, by the time I noticed the gun storage feature I had written off any semblance of logic applied to the design.

Notice Yamato didn't even bother with any of that in their toys.

[Graham]

In terestin

I thought they were storage bays on the underside of the fighter which were primarily for the gunpods but could also house the reaction missiles. Notice that after planting that missile, Max transforms into battroid and equips a single gunpod to shoot the baddies -- presumably because he had nowhere to stow a second one. Then he runs out of ammo, though.

Interesting hypothesis Renato. I'd never considered it to be an and/or situation with regards to internal storage of the VF-22S's gunpod(s) and reaction missile(s), but that does make sense and explains why Max only had one gunpod during the Operation Stargazer mission. So basically, he had one gunpod in one bay and one reaction missile in the other bay. Makes sense.

Although it stll doesn't explain why when his gunpod ran out of ammo, he didn't then switch to the foream beam guns? Perhaps he didn't actually have much time on the VF-22S and forgot about them.

Graham

[Reïvaj]

I thought they were storage bays on the underside of the fighter which were primarily for the gunpods but could also house the reaction missiles. Notice that after planting that missile, Max transforms into battroid and equips a single gunpod to shoot the baddies -- presumably because he had nowhere to stow a second one. Then he runs out of ammo, though.

The shape being "wrong" never bothered me because there is so much magic going on with the proportions of the 21/22 anyway, by the time I noticed the gun storage feature I had written off any semblance of logic applied to the design.

Notice Yamato didn't even bother with any of that in their toys.

Mystery solved.

[Knight26]

The VF-22 was IMHO a rushed design, Kawamori knew he needed another powerful fighter for the end but had written himself into a corner regarding the YF-21 so changed the design a bit for the VF-22, basically just enough to make it a new plane.

As for the gunpod storage, yes there is some serious origami to fitting the pods in, but I would wager that the gunpod can we swapped out for a reaction warhead. I'd say that those doors open for either the gunpod or the missile. In battroid you probably have the option of removing the gunpod through the doors or just grabbing off the innerside of the ventral plate.

The real question is what Graham brought up though, why didn't max use the forearm beam cannons. The only reasonable explanation is that the beam cannons use the same fuel source to generate their "plasma" as the reaction engines use for fuel. Max may have been low on fuel and opted not use the beam cannons becuase he knew he wouldn't have fuel to make his escape if he started openning fire with the beam cannons.

[VF5SS]

But Kawamori didn't do any writing for Macross 7...

The lack of built in weaponry use is very common in Macross 7. It's part of that Valkyrie feature creep that never occurred to the directors. All Valkyries tend to use the three types of weapons prominently displayed in the original Macross series and rarely any other kind.

I don't disagree that the VF-22S was a rushed design but I was wondering if there was ever a hint of something on the cutting room floor.

Edited December 2, 2011 by VF5SS

[frothymug]

It's because of this writing habit of theirs that I do the same thing in my fanfic. You pretty much never see pilots in the series using any weapons other than a gunpod, missiles, and the occasional head-mounted laser. Now that I'm aware of this, I plan on utilizing more features on the mechs in my story in the future.

[ChronoReverse]

In Plus you see both the YF-21 and the YF-19 use their lasers at least =)

BTW, in the Plus Movie, after Guld ditches the legs and arms of his YF-21 he proceeds to shoot at the X-9 in a dogfight until he rammed it. Weren't these lasers in the arms? What exactly is he shooting then? His head laser?

Does anyone know if there's an explanation for this other than "they screwed up"?

[Zinjo]

Macross Zero was the first time I ever saw the head optics utilized strategically. Ivanov's use of the SV-51's telescoping head in particular...

[Product9]

Toward the end of Dynamite didn't Gamlin make use of those forearm cannons? I have to rewatch it to be sure. Also I seem to recall that scene treating the gunpod more like some kind of beam rifle, but that may have just been an odd dream I had.

About Zero and heads, yeah, I was inspired by the use of the zero's head lasers as anti-missile weaponry. That was very cool, a bit Armored Core'ish.

[Chronocidal]

They continued that trend through Frontier I believe. I can remember a few instances where Alto was dodging around like crazy, and the head lasers looked like they were going on full auto as an anti-missile defensive weapon, shooting in various directions simultaneously.

[Jasonc]

SDF Macross also shows the head laser as a cutter, using a steady stream to cut through what looks like a steel door to get to Misa inside Alaska base. Are the guns inside the 21's arms at that type of power, where they are defensive/tool like?

As for the 22 and the guns in the storage bays, I wonder why Kawamori didn't just keep the guns on the outside? They look great on the YF-21, and look more menacing than them being in the hidden bays.

[frothymug]

Ozma gave a Vajra a nice volley of laser fire in Episode 17 after they found out that their weapons weren't working... right before he killed it by impaling it with its own dismembered claw. I love that guy.

[Product9]

I'm still disappointed they almost never showed the Armored Pack's massive beam cannons in use. I can only recall one instance of them firing in ep 25 when Alto and Brera were doing their Kira and Athrun thing. As Alto rolls around next to Brera's -27 you can see them firing, probably utilizing the auto targeting feature I remember reading about on the M3. Are there any instances I am forgetting, or is that really the only time we have seen them used? If it were me, I would use them all the time. Even when not in combat.

Also, as a throwback, Alto used the -25's head lasers as a cutting tool in ep 25 as well, to get to Ranka.

That reminds me, and this is kind of off topic here, but I was wondering: can the VF-25 still use pinpoint barriers as a weapon like the YF-19 and -21? I know it has a knife and all now, but I always thought the PPB punch was more classy and Macrosslike. Adding a knife is too much a step toward Gundam for my tastes. Also, howcome the -25 doesn't feature the ventral monitors of the YF-19? That system was too cool for school.

[VF5SS]

I think I need to clarify what I meant by three weapons in the original Macross. We mostly see gun pods, head lasers, or missiles. It's a bit more infrequent with other kinds of mounted weapons but they show up from time to time.

I know it has a knife and all now, but I always thought the PPB punch was more classy and Macrosslike. Adding a knife is too much a step toward Gundam for my tastes.

So in a franchise where we've seen a Valkyrie do a spin kick-punch-gun combo and another do a veritable Rider Kick to a Zentrandi and not to mention the the one with a giant bayonet for skewering more Zentradi, a glowing knife is too Gundam?

[eugimon]

I dunno, Gundam took transforming suits, a songstress female lead, upgrading suits via add on armor and most recently, a main character that saves humanity by traveling with an all powerful alien entity to parts unknown...

Damnit Gundam, stop ripping off Macross!

[frothymug]

Oh yeah... there's a couple of instances where Alto uses the head lasers in fighter mode to shoot at bogeys on his six.

[Product9]

My point is the glowey knife is less cool than what they already had.

Also, yeah, Alto did use the rearward firing lasers a few times, but come to think of it they act more like machineguns than lasers. I can't remember exactly what they are supposed to be, though.

[ChronoReverse]

If you're referring to the head mounted lasers, then they're just "anti-aircraft lasers" used to shoot at your six in fighter mode and to shoot all around (usually missiles) in battroid mode.

[Nicaragua]

As for the 22 and the guns in the storage bays, I wonder why Kawamori didn't just keep the guns on the outside? They look great on the YF-21, and look more menacing than them being in the hidden bays.

+1

I love that the 21's gunpods are more intergrated into the overall design rather than just being a gun stuck between the engines. The VF-22 loses something by trying to have them fitted internally.

[RDClip]

I think I need to clarify what I meant by three weapons in the original Macross. We mostly see gun pods, head lasers, or missiles. It's a bit more infrequent with other kinds of mounted weapons but they show up from time to time.

Roy and Hikaru both used the FAST pack mounted laser-y (or plasma-y) cannons in DYRL and Alto had the Tornado pack in the first Mac F movie. (which was a very cool new type of weapon. 360 degree coverage, oh yeah.)

Doesn't the YF-19 have machine guns located at the waist in battroid mode? I don't think i remember ever seeing those used.

[JB0]

As for the 22 and the guns in the storage bays, I wonder why Kawamori didn't just keep the guns on the outside? They look great on the YF-21, and look more menacing than them being in the hidden bays.

Probably to make it easier to draw. The VF-19 got significantly streamlined too.

[VF-15 Banshee]

I dunno, Gundam took transforming suits, a songstress female lead, upgrading suits via add on armor and most recently, a main character that saves humanity by traveling with an all powerful alien entity to parts unknown...

Damnit Gundam, stop ripping off Macross!

Funny how it's taken only thirty years for that.

[valid]

That reminds me, and this is kind of off topic here, but I was wondering: can the VF-25 still use pinpoint barriers as a weapon like the YF-19 and -21? I know it has a knife and all now, but I always thought the PPB punch was more classy and Macrosslike. Adding a knife is too much a step toward Gundam for my tastes. Also, howcome the -25 doesn't feature the ventral monitors of the YF-19? That system was too cool for school.

is it the 360 degree cockpit view that you mean by ventral monitors? yeah.. i think.. from avionic point of view.. the 25 is one step backward from the 19, 21 and 27.. to many limitation in cockpit view.. i love the way 19 cockpit view that let isamu have a clear vision all around the cockpit..

and for the pin point barrier i think it's a lot more cooler in the knife mode..

and for the 22 i think it trying to imitated the yf 22/23 to much.. but in the anime the gimmick is not particularly clear.. to much anime magic in it..

one question.. do the, 22,27,and 25 have internal missile bay? it made me curious where all those micro missile swarming out from when they don't have fast pack mounted in their body

Edited December 4, 2011 by valid

[eugimon]

22 has the micro missile launchers on the back, those black diamond shaped ports. 27 has the on the engine nacelles on the wing. The 25 doesn't but alto usually keeps the leg portion of the FAST pack which does have them

[sketchley]

Perhaps the port that the reaction missile is launching from is an animation error? I've always supposed that the internal pallets are in the arms or the outskirts of the rear fuselage, just inside of where the arms go.

[VF5SS]

I honestly do no believe the VF-22S stores gun pods in its ventral plates as at the very least the shape of those weapon bays do not match the shape of the gun pods and the ends have a visible gun barrel which the YF-21 gun pods do not have.

I think it's just a case of someone assuming that a mainline Valkyrie just has to have a gun pod when seen in an anime. Like how the VA-3M has no gun pod in VF-X2 yet the VA-3C in Dynamite 7 does have a gun pod. It's just a motif.

Kinda like how in that one ad for Digital Mission VF-X the VF-4 is given a gun pod.

[Vic Mancini]

I thought they were storage bays on the underside of the fighter which were primarily for the gunpods but could also house the reaction missiles. Notice that after planting that missile, Max transforms into battroid and equips a single gunpod to shoot the baddies -- presumably because he had nowhere to stow a second one.

I might be totally and completely wrong, but I can't remember too many instances where YF-21/VF-22s used both gun pods "John Woo simultaneous style" even when they were both available. I thought it was more common to use one gun pod until it ran out of ammo, and then switch to the spare.

[Graham]

I'm still disappointed they almost never showed the Armored Pack's massive beam cannons in use. I can only recall one instance of them firing in ep 25 when Alto and Brera were doing their Kira and Athrun thing. As Alto rolls around next to Brera's -27 you can see them firing, probably utilizing the auto targeting feature I remember reading about on the M3. Are there any instances I am forgetting, or is that really the only time we have seen them used? If it were me, I would use them all the time. Even when not in combat.

Ozma uses the Armored Pack's beam cannons in episode 1 (or is it ep 2, I forget) of Frontier, when he's grappling with the red Vajra. He transforms to Gerwalk, to avoid the Vajra's attack and fires the Armored Packs beam cannons at the Vajra at point blank range.

Graham

[sketchley]

I might be totally and completely wrong, but I can't remember too many instances where YF-21/VF-22s used both gun pods "John Woo simultaneous style" even when they were both available. I thought it was more common to use one gun pod until it ran out of ammo, and then switch to the spare.

If memory serves... it's done in "Macross Digital Mission VF-X", "Macross VF-X2", or both.

[sketchley]

Like how the VA-3M has no gun pod in VF-X2 yet the VA-3C in Dynamite 7 does have a gun pod. It's just a motif.

I see you've overlooked the VA-3 and it's mean looking gun pod: http://www.macrossro...FENSIVE_SYSTEMS

Not to mention that the VA-3M has beam guns in the forearms, and that the VA-3 doesn't.

The main reason for the VA-3C's 'gun pod' is the harpoon to catch the space whales. Of course, adding a Gatling gun into the barrel of the VA-3C's harpoon pod and relying on it exclusively in combat (despite also having beam guns in the forearms) does support your assertion that it's use as a gun pod in M7D is just a motif.

Nevertheless, you do have a very good point here:

I honestly do no believe the VF-22S stores gun pods in its ventral plates as at the very least the shape of those weapon bays do not match the shape of the gun pods and the ends have a visible gun barrel which the YF-21 gun pods do not have.

Though, it does beg the question: where was that gun pod stored?

Macross Chronicle #24 Pg 01's Tenjin Hidetaka's painting of the VF-22S adds further confusion: one side of those ventral storage areas looks normal, but the other side has a smoothed over front end - implying that Miria's VF-22S is carrying only one gun pod (reinforcing the assertion that the screen-grab in the OP is just an animation error.)

All that said, Macross Chronicle #13 Pg 10 states that the Bifors GE GV-17L Gun Pod is stored in underside panels in fighter mode. So, ultimately it boils down to anime magic...

Edited December 5, 2011 by sketchley

[ff95gj]

Ozma uses the Armored Pack's beam cannons in episode 1 (or is it ep 2, I forget) of Frontier, when he's grappling with the red Vajra. He transforms to Gerwalk, to avoid the Vajra's attack and fires the Armored Packs beam cannons at the Vajra at point blank range.

Graham

*sigh* Gonna love that guy too.

[VF5SS]

I am so tired of you guys mentioning anime magic.

stop

[David Hingtgen]

Do we know that the VF-19 has the "through the floor" monitors? I'm thinking that was a YF-19 thing, that was deemed too expensive/impractical for mass-production. (much like the YF-21's BDI system)