Problem with Macross Frontier

[Solidus Snake]

From what I gathered, the Vajra are non-hostile unless provoked. The 117th research fleet seemed to have no problem with them until they were provoked and attacked them.

[Solidus Snake]

The humans are a bit quick to forgive the Vajra, that is true. A follow up series could deal with humans who are not happy that all was forgiven.

As for how things started, the Vajra are "bugs" to humans, humans most likely are thought of the same way by the Vajra. I don't remember - did the humans capture a Vajra first and then the attacks on Ranka's outpost? Or the other way around? If the experments were first then all the Vajra would have know about it - and not been happy. If that Vajra attack came first then the humans would not be happy. Either way it was obvious that it was a misunderstanding.

The humans are forgiving because the whole thing started due to human meddling. The Vajra didn't strike first.

The experiments on the Vajra were going on long before Ranka was born. Ranka was born during the 117th Research Fleet doing experiments on the Vajra. Remember Ranshe Mei contracted V-type infection while pregnant with Ranka.

[RedWolf]

From what I gathered, the Vajra are non-hostile unless provoked. The 117th research fleet seemed to have no problem with them until they were provoked and attacked them.

Individuals don't matter as the Hive is one organism. They didn't understand individual sentience until they understood why with Sheryl and Ranka.

As to why the 177th Fleet was attacked. Imagine being called to an orgy only to find hostile aliens shooting at you! Ranka explained Aimo is a love song.

The Vajra are confused as to WTF is gong on.

[Dynaman]

The humans are forgiving because the whole thing started due to human meddling. The Vajra didn't strike first.

Humans also have this amazing capacity for self deception - even when given proof that THEY caused the whole mess in the first place a great many would still seek revenge - or would flat out refuse to believe it. One of the nice things about Macross is that the series doesn't overlook this type of human behaviour (unlike say ST, where the claim humans are beyond this or that, but the series shows them doing those things over and over)

[Radd]

Humans also have this amazing capacity for self deception - even when given proof that THEY caused the whole mess in the first place a great many would still seek revenge - or would flat out refuse to believe it. One of the nice things about Macross is that the series doesn't overlook this type of human behaviour (unlike say ST, where the claim humans are beyond this or that, but the series shows them doing those things over and over)

A good example of this is Klan Klan in the tv series. Even tho she had all the info everyone else in the SMS did, she wasn't quite willing to forgive them for Michael's death when the Quarter went AWOL.

[d3v]

Because at the end of the day, the Galaxy, Grace and her 'Despairs and Nightmares' was the true enemy.

[Gian]

With all these DYRL/SDF Macross resemblances in MF, I was waiting to see a marriage between a real vajra and a human, a shame it didn't happen hehe

[d3v]

With all these DYRL/SDF Macross resemblances in MF, I was waiting to see a marriage between a real vajra and a human, a shame it didn't happen hehe

Well, Ai-kun seemed all to eager to skip the marriage part and get on with the... you know what....

[taksraven]

Because the Vajra are a majestic and powerful space-fairing species that have existed long before the birth of humanity and will still be out their long after the last hint of human life have disappeared form the universe. It would be a pretty dick move to just declare them evil and hunt them to extinction simply because they're perceived as a hindrance to humanities unchecked expansion throughout the galaxy.

It would sort of be like going out in boats and killing all the sharks in the sea because a couple people got eaten while swimming in the sharks ocean.

I think that is the best way to describe it. Well done.

[Renato]

I think we can all agree that NastyNate missed the entire point of the show.

In his first post, he quoted from the Starship Troopers movie with 100% sincerity and not a hint of irony or sarcasm, to prove his point. I think that's not the only show he's missed the point of.

[TehPW]

A good example of this is Klan Klan in the tv series. Even tho she had all the info everyone else in the SMS did, she wasn't quite willing to forgive them for Michael's death when the Quarter went AWOL.

thats why i thought that aspect of the end of MF was disturbing. Because the way it seemed the whole of the Colony Fleet was behind Leon's propaganda. They seemed very happy to go to war, even when they effectively taken the planet from the Varja in the end. I know i stated this before but that attitute was very prevalent in japanese society about.... oh.... 60-70 years ago. Delusion is often used as a excuse to be allowed to do bad things...

can Star Trek's timeline (sans Mirror Universe) say the same?

Because at the end of the day, the Galaxy, Grace and her 'Despairs and Nightmares' was the true enemy.

but they were NOT the only ones. In the end, i think Might Makes Right, is the only moral to MF-TV's story. The good guys 'won' but but it wasnt moral, from God's POV...

Edited November 6, 2011 by pensives_wetness

[Killer Robot]

Really I thought that was the whole point of why Leon was presented as a villain in both movie and TV series. He wasn't after finding a new home or a just war: he wanted domination and personal glory, and was willing to trick the entire fleet into it. And no one knew the full extent in the TV series. Even those who found out about his coup didn't know the full truth of the Vajra not actually being hostile by nature, not until the end. The Quarter left knowing Leon was evil, but as far as the Vajra goes they were on a fact-finding mission. So was Ranka, even: she was guessing that peace could be made, but didn't know for sure, and definitely didn't know the full story (or else she wouldn't have walked into that trap quite how she did.)

In the end, Frontier settled on the Vajra planet, while most of the Vajra themselves took off. But that's not because people still saw the war as a good thing: it had more to do with the fleet being crippled and unable to maintain life support for further travel. Thanks to the manipulation of Leon and Galaxy, at the end it was a "land or die trying" scenario which thankfully ended without either side being annihilated.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Killer Robot

[Radd]

thats why i thought that aspect of the end of MF was disturbing. Because the way it seemed the whole of the Colony Fleet was behind Leon's propaganda. They seemed very happy to go to war, even when they effectively taken the planet from the Varja in the end. I know i stated this before but that attitute was very prevalent in japanese society about.... oh.... 60-70 years ago. Delusion is often used as a excuse to be allowed to do bad things...

It was disturbing, and it was presented in exactly that light. It wasn't glorifying humanity's war against the Vajra, it was showing just how despicable and painful it was. But it was also showing the complex motivations for the populace, it wasn't that the populace was simply so eager to go along with Leon, from their limited perspective the Vajra were the agressors. From Klan's broader view she knew in her mind that all was not as it seemed, but she was so angry over Michael's death that she stayed behind to fight the Vajra rather than go with the Quarter to discover the truth.

Tho, to be fair, she also did not stand in the way of the search for truth.

but they were NOT the only ones. In the end, i think Might Makes Right, is the only moral to MF-TV's story. The good guys 'won' but but it wasnt moral, from God's POV...

Did we watch the same tv series? "Might makes right" was definitely not the moral of the story. The good guys "won" by exposing both Leon and Grace and finally making peace with the vajra. In fact, the only way the good guys were able to achieve the might to defeat Grace was by making peace with the Vajra and uniting against her. That's how the tv series ended.

How did you think it ended?

[TehPW]

_{with Alto getting arrested with 2 charges of Statutory rape of two minors, maybe? oh wait.... Alto is a minor, too... Alto going to Juvy Detention?}

_{It ended rather Disney like, really. The Good guys 'won'. Folks woke up in the end, and Alto's decent into bigomy began. it's just prehaps i DLed the Shawshank Redemption version of MF, t'all.}

[Beltane70]

It's only bigamy if he tries to marry both of them. No laws against fooling around with more than one person if single!

[Raptor One]

_{with Alto getting arrested with 2 charges of Statutory rape of two minors, maybe? oh wait.... Alto is a minor, too... Alto going to Juvy Detention?}

Actually Alto turns 18 during the series, while the other two are still minors

[TehPW]

Actually Alto turns 18 during the series, while the other two are still minors

actually the only evidence ive ever seen of Alto and Sherly copulating was on Danbooru, LOL

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post/show/1027223/absurdres-aircraft_carrier-canards-city-flying-hel

not THAT pic but this was equally mecharosing....

Edited November 8, 2011 by pensives_wetness

[d3v]

Depends, if they have the Japanese age of consent, then everyone is happy.

[Talos]

Really, you have to look at the entire show from a Japanese cultural perspective since Frontier was made for a Japanese audience and not a western one. This includes both the Alto/Sheryl/Ranka situation, the actions of the Frontier government and the peoples' reactions to them, and even SMS.

First, the love triangle. Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka are all within a year of each other. If I remember correctly, Ranka is only ten months younger then Alto. There's no statutory rape there in either case for him. Sheryl's probably older (we just have her age, not her exact birthday like the other two). In Japan, for instance, there is a minimum age of consent, but prefectures can (and most do) have a higher one around 16-18. They are close enough though that by the time Alto's 18, Ranka is going to be 17 and no one would care. At 18 he would still be a minor in Japan, though.

As for the actions of Frontier and why there was no unrest or anything, it's a very Japanese mindset. All throughout the history of the country there has been strong control over the people. For most of it, it was a devotion to the local leaders and Daimyo. After the Meiji Restoration, this was converted into an extreme nationalism, where most people wouldn't even think about questioning what their country was doing. This led to the Pacific War and eventually the fall of the Japanese Empire at the end of it. Even now, it's not uncommon for an average Japanese citizen to not question what's going on, to take what the government says at face value, and just accept things.

SMS is an outlier there, people who operate on their own tack, who go against the grain when they want to, and eventually just go pirate to solve the situation in general. Because normal culture in Japan is one of conformity and the group, the highly individual-oriented SMS stands out heavily. It's pretty common to see protagonists like that in manga and anime (and drama) despite that. It's almost an outlet for those types of feelings and frustrations that people get. They would never do something reckless or opposing and authority, but through stories like that, they can at least root for it.

There's even a kotowaza saying that proverb that deals with this. 出る杭は打たれる, which means "The stake that sticks out gets hammered down".

Essentially the gist of this post is to take Frontier from a Japanese cultural perspective when you read into it. Even if it's supposed to be a half-San Francisco city with a lot of westerners, the writers are still Japanese and it was made for a Japanese audience. That's why you get things like a 16-17 year old girl who can convincingly play an 11 year old (Ranka as Mao, of course), Alto's fight to forge his own destiny apart from his family, and even Klan and Michel's relationship. Don't fall into the trap of finding fault with the show by taking things with western sensibilities.

[eugimon]

omg, because no western show *ever* has two high school kids dating, or gasp... KISSING!!!

BTW, the age of consent for much of the USA is 16.

[Dynaman]

> omg, because no western show *ever* has two high school kids dating, or gasp... KISSING!!!

I'll have to take your word for it, onlike Macross I would never watch those shows...

[d3v]

Age of consent is 13 in Japan.

[eugimon]

Age of consent is 13 in Japan.

yes, but the characters in MF weren't 13 and all this talk of statutory rape...

[Raptor One]

I'm pretty sure most of the statutory rape posts were being facetious. I know mine was, lol

[azrael]

I'm pretty sure most of the statutory rape posts were being facetious. I know mine was, lol

On that note, let's get back to the topic or I lock.

[Castel]

With all these DYRL/SDF Macross resemblances in MF, I was waiting to see a marriage between a real vajra and a human, a shame it didn't happen hehe

Totally.

I really was expecting something like that at some point.

[Loop]

What would make you guys think that someone would marry a Vajra? I can see it with the Zentran and Meltrandi because they have a humanoid build.

Marrying a Vajra is kinda like bestiality if you ask me lol. The Vajra in no way resemble humanoids in any way.

And if we all can remember from the original series, Humans and Zentradi are practically the same as far as genetics go.

I highly doubt a human and a Vajra can have a child. I mean would it have 2 brains? One in the stomach and one in the head?

[frothymug]

Humans and Zentraedi are both children of the Protoculture. That alone is enough of a reason to explain their compatibility. However, unless some even more advanced civilization genetically engineered the Vajra and Protoculture, I'd entirely rule out the possibility of compatibility with the space bugs.

[Castel]

What would make you guys think that someone would marry a Vajra?

You would be surprised to see how well a Vajra can cook and do some repair in the house. A hell of a husband, i tell ya.

Joke aside i was really expecting some human looking Vajra to make their apparition soon or later and for one of them to end up with a human. Back then, when i first watched this show.

Cause well, in the end that's what Macross is all about. To meet new cultures, to fight them a bit before realizing that they are so damn nice and, finally, to share a bed with them. (Global and Britai's story)

[Bri]

Cause well, in the end that's what Macross is all about. To meet new cultures, to fight them a bit before realizing that they are so damn nice and, finally, to share a bed with them. (Global and Britai's story)

Hmm, Alto x Vajra Queen. Fortunately we shall never know.

[Gian]

Hmm, Alto x Vajra Queen. Fortunately we shall never know.

For countless reasons I love and hate Kawamori at the same time

[pfunk]

interesting tangent I was thinking more like pets, ya know take a Vajra to the park on a leash

[s001]

The worst part is when they say "the vajra have feelings too" an that aimo is a vajra lovesong.

They could have explained the whole thing in a thousand different ways, but they went with the lamest one of all.

And don't get me started with the movies!

Edited November 24, 2011 by s001

[Gubaba]

The worst part is when they say "the vajra have feelings too" an that aimo is a vajra lovesong.

It's a twist on DYRL...nothing more, nothing less.

[sharky]

Really, you have to look at the entire show from a Japanese cultural perspective since Frontier was made for a Japanese audience and not a western one. This includes both the Alto/Sheryl/Ranka situation, the actions of the Frontier government and the peoples' reactions to them, and even SMS.

First, the love triangle. Alto, Sheryl, and Ranka are all within a year of each other. If I remember correctly, Ranka is only ten months younger then Alto. There's no statutory rape there in either case for him. Sheryl's probably older (we just have her age, not her exact birthday like the other two). In Japan, for instance, there is a minimum age of consent, but prefectures can (and most do) have a higher one around 16-18. They are close enough though that by the time Alto's 18, Ranka is going to be 17 and no one would care. At 18 he would still be a minor in Japan, though.

As for the actions of Frontier and why there was no unrest or anything, it's a very Japanese mindset. All throughout the history of the country there has been strong control over the people. For most of it, it was a devotion to the local leaders and Daimyo. After the Meiji Restoration, this was converted into an extreme nationalism, where most people wouldn't even think about questioning what their country was doing. This led to the Pacific War and eventually the fall of the Japanese Empire at the end of it. Even now, it's not uncommon for an average Japanese citizen to not question what's going on, to take what the government says at face value, and just accept things.

SMS is an outlier there, people who operate on their own tack, who go against the grain when they want to, and eventually just go pirate to solve the situation in general. Because normal culture in Japan is one of conformity and the group, the highly individual-oriented SMS stands out heavily. It's pretty common to see protagonists like that in manga and anime (and drama) despite that. It's almost an outlet for those types of feelings and frustrations that people get. They would never do something reckless or opposing and authority, but through stories like that, they can at least root for it.

There's even a kotowaza saying that proverb that deals with this. 出る杭は打たれる, which means "The stake that sticks out gets hammered down".

Essentially the gist of this post is to take Frontier from a Japanese cultural perspective when you read into it. Even if it's supposed to be a half-San Francisco city with a lot of westerners, the writers are still Japanese and it was made for a Japanese audience. That's why you get things like a 16-17 year old girl who can convincingly play an 11 year old (Ranka as Mao, of course), Alto's fight to forge his own destiny apart from his family, and even Klan and Michel's relationship. Don't fall into the trap of finding fault with the show by taking things with western sensibilities.

Actually, I don't think you need to understand Japanese culture to understand Frontier. From the perspective of the civilians all they know is that the Vajra are attacking them for no reason because they are savage creatures and they have to defend themselves. In the show, it was a matter of survival for them to colonize the Vajra home planet. Since, the Vajra were seen as the aggressor bad guys that attacked Frontier and put them in that situation in the first place, I'm sure the average citizen didn't have a problem with it.

With regard to the love triangle, again you don't need to understand Japanese culture to get it. It is obvious that all three of them were similar in age since they went to the same school. How is that any different than any other story of love and relationships and what goes on in any American high school setting.