Problem with Macross Frontier

[NastyNate]

I don't know if this has been discussed already but one thing really bothers me about Frontier and I want to know if anyone else feels the same way. You see in Frontier the Raja are evil bugs that have KILLED COUNTLESS amounts of people. Sometimes they where provoked, sometimes they where trying to rescue ranka, sometimes they where just passing through and wanted to make a ship their new nest so they just kill everyone. Their bugs. Well what is up with the end of Frontier and the movies where all of a sudden these bugs are not bad the whole time? In the movie they where like just take the transmitters off so they will be good...Oh no they will still kill you because they are evil bugs. I don't know this whole thing really bothered me about that series and felt like if they where going to make these things good they did not do a good job making them look like they deserve it. As Ricko's Rough Necks from starship troopers says "The only good bug is a DEAD bug.:

[miles316]

We humans provoked them the were simply defending themselves im shur the Zentraty space fortress probably fired first.

Edited October 30, 2011 by miles316

[kanedaestes]

But it's been said over and over again that it was all a misunderstanding. The vajra only attacked Frontier when Sheryl got there and after that it was the whole trying to get in touch with Ranka unless we happened to randomly come across them in space during sorties at which point many of times the humans fired first, so it becomes self defense at that point.

[bravo5]

Humans NEVER fire first.........ask George Lucas

[Jasonc]

I don't know if this has been discussed already but one thing really bothers me about Frontier and I want to know if anyone else feels the same way. You see in Frontier the Raja are evil bugs that have KILLED COUNTLESS amounts of people. Sometimes they where provoked, sometimes they where trying to rescue ranka, sometimes they where just passing through and wanted to make a ship their new nest so they just kill everyone. Their bugs. Well what is up with the end of Frontier and the movies where all of a sudden these bugs are not bad the whole time? In the movie they where like just take the transmitters off so they will be good...Oh no they will still kill you because they are evil bugs. I don't know this whole thing really bothered me about that series and felt like if they where going to make these things good they did not do a good job making them look like they deserve it. As Ricko's Rough Necks from starship troopers says "The only good bug is a DEAD bug.:

In reality, not everything is black and white, good and evil. I dunno, take for instance, a bee. A bee makes honey, helps pollenate flowers, etc. They do many things that benefit us without them knowing. However, if you get near a bee hive, and swat it with a bat and stand there, you're going to get messed up.

Like most wars, it's all a matter of perspective, and what side you're on. Sometimes there is a right vs. wrong, sometimes it's religious differences, sometimes political views. What makes one force attack another is the difference in perspective. If you watch the t.v. series, or the movies from a different perspective, maybe you'll understand why the characters come to the conclusion to help the Vajra.

[anime52k8]

Because the Vajra are a majestic and powerful space-fairing species that have existed long before the birth of humanity and will still be out their long after the last hint of human life have disappeared form the universe. It would be a pretty dick move to just declare them evil and hunt them to extinction simply because they're perceived as a hindrance to humanities unchecked expansion throughout the galaxy.

It would sort of be like going out in boats and killing all the sharks in the sea because a couple people got eaten while swimming in the sharks ocean.

Edited October 30, 2011 by anime52k8

[frothymug]

In a natural state, I see the Vajra as semi-sentient hive-minded creatures. They are similar to other socially-based creatures here on Earth, like bees and ants. Take bees, for example... you get too close to their hive and they'll start to defend it. You provoke them, they'll sting you. In the series, the Vajra were lured to the Frontier fleet by Galaxy. You ever get visited by a bee and if you swat at him, he'll get upset and try to sting you? Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it. When the Vajra are on "auto-pilot" their natural behavior will seem familiar like that.

[Killer Robot]

For that matter, how much did the Vajra even know that humans were intelligent? They don't construct technology like humans, so might not recognize that. They don't communicate the same ways humans do, so they might not recognize human communications traffic even as being such. Humans are small organisms with no fold communications: could they really have more than animal level intelligence? Or if they do have some unknown link, if you don't kill any queens it's nothing unforgivable, right?

To go with the most obvious sci-fi parallel, this isn't Ender's Game exactly, but it sure is similar. Without communication neither species had any certainty that the other was one with which peace could ever exist, and in this case maybe even that they were actual intelligence. At least in this story, peace came before total destruction.

[anime52k8]

BTW, think of it from the Vajra's perspective. Humans just show up and capture one of their queen's to experiment on, repeatedly wipe out whole hives then then go to their home world and try to enslave their entire species. Humans are pretty damn evil, and it's quite surprising that the Vajra didn't decide to go out and destroy every human planet and fleet just to make sure this crap doesn't happen any more.

[NastyNate]

From the perspective of people caught up in the ONSLOUGHT of lives, I think they have every right to wipe these things out. If I am in the woods I am not going to kill a bee hive just because it is out there. But if there is a hive by my house that effects my family and their safety then you can be sure that hive is going to be wiped of the face of the planet. Whos to say if they don't kill the queen on the home planet, that ranka or sheryl can be minding their own business singing at another concert when these things come with NO MERCY slaughtering everyone trying to "rescue" the singer. I don't understand saying "oh there just bugs" meanwhile your wife is getting eaten and they just bit through your leg.

[frothymug]

Again, they kind of are treading into Vajra territory. To them, the fleets would be the pests.

[Gubaba]

From the perspective of people caught up in the ONSLOUGHT of lives, I think they have every right to wipe these things out. If I am in the woods I am not going to kill a bee hive just because it is out there. But if there is a hive by my house that effects my family and their safety then you can be sure that hive is going to be wiped of the face of the planet. Whos to say if they don't kill the queen on the home planet, that ranka or sheryl can be minding their own business singing at another concert when these things come with NO MERCY slaughtering everyone trying to "rescue" the singer. I don't understand saying "oh there just bugs" meanwhile your wife is getting eaten and they just bit through your leg.

And the Zentradi wiped out the earth, but peace was still made with them.

[NastyNate]

And the Zentradi wiped out the earth, but peace was still made with them.

We could reason with them though and communicate. These are brainless bugs.

[Gubaba]

We could reason with them though and communicate. These are brainless bugs.

But they're not brainless. Their brains are just in their stomachs, not their heads.

[azrael]

We could reason with them though and communicate. These are brainless bugs.

How do you know they're brainless? Just because they don't communicate the same way or act the same way you do automatically makes them brainless? A common housefly has a brain.

As the saying goes, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

[kalvasflam]

As the saying goes, "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Which can be easily remedied with multiple macross cannons and dimension eaters.

[Dynaman]

The humans are a bit quick to forgive the Vajra, that is true. A follow up series could deal with humans who are not happy that all was forgiven.

As for how things started, the Vajra are "bugs" to humans, humans most likely are thought of the same way by the Vajra. I don't remember - did the humans capture a Vajra first and then the attacks on Ranka's outpost? Or the other way around? If the experments were first then all the Vajra would have know about it - and not been happy. If that Vajra attack came first then the humans would not be happy. Either way it was obvious that it was a misunderstanding.

[Gubaba]

Which can be easily remedied with multiple macross cannons and dimension eaters.

Well, the problem here is obviously that the Vajra aren't just going to sit back and let themselves get slugged into nothingness. And human victory against the Vajra is anything but a sure bet...so if you CAN communicate with them, you probably SHOULD...or else millions, perhaps billions, of people get killed for pretty much no reason.

[sharky]

I thought the Vajra were being manipulated and controlled. Besides humans are the ones that are invading their territory and home. We would react the same way if they were heading towards Earth.

[RedWolf]

Vajra are like Space Whales that fight back. Now having a grudge against multi-galaxy spanning species is an exercise in futility.

.

[Radd]

We could reason with them though and communicate. These are brainless bugs.

I'm reminded of when the series was first airing and many people on this very forum were convinced that Ranka had betrayed humanity, despite the fact that as the viewer audience we got to see a broader picture than the characters in the show and we were given enough to know that all was not as it seemed with the Vajra.

The Vajra were not mindless, brainless bugs.They're an advanced civilization, just extremely alien to our own.

Also, I can't fault the tv show/movie for portraying humanity forgiving the vajra quickly any more than the equally quick way the vajra forgive the humans (who, in case anyone forgets, were the aggressors the entire time. Remember, this was the big twist ending! In the tv series, the final battle above the Vajra homeworld played out like a scene for scene recreation of the end battle of DYRL, but with humanity as the invading alien fleet. They even matched up dialogue from the DYRL battle, with Captain Wilder delivering Britai's lines.) as this was all taking place in the middle of a battle for survival. Are you going to keep shooting the other side's soldiers when it's revealed to you that you've been lied to by your superiors the entire time? Alternately, are you going to keep fighting the invaders when you witness them firsthand saving you from being conquered by a third party using mind control, revealing that there's actually two factions on the "other side" and one is trying to help you against the common enemy?

Seriously, Frontier gets a bit deeper with the double crosses and twists than any other Macross, but it's still relatively straight forward and everything is clearly revealed well before the end with no room for supposition regarding each character's or faction's motivations. Except maybe Mr. Bilrar, they make you actually read a bit into what he says and does to recognize his motivations.

[Gubaba]

Pretty much, yeah.

I think all Macross series (except, arguably, Plus) are at least partially about the question, "What do you do when you have an enemy that you can't just decimate? Moreover, what happens when you find out that that enemy SHOULDN'T be decimated?"

In the orginal, it was because the enemy were "just like us." In II, it was the same. In 7, it was because they were simply too powerful to destroy. Ditto Zero (if you take "the enemy" as being the Bird-Human, that is).

And in Frontier it's because while the Vajra are completely alien to us, they are still complex beings who were manipulated into war, but don't desire it.

All that being said, the only good computer-generated AI pop singer is a dead computer-generated AI pop singer.

EDIT: That means this girl's next on the hit list. FIRE AWAY!!

Edited October 31, 2011 by Gubaba

[kanedaestes]

Also....we would've been wiped out honestly. When you think about it the Vajra were also advanced in warfare being able to adapt to weapons and developing defenses for them. Yes Dimension Eaters work but how many do we really have or for how long can we keep that up? I would rather make peace with a race that could easily defeat me in the long run than be angry. But yes there will be Anti-Vajra sentiment just as their was with Zentradi. It took a couple of decades before true peace with Zentradis was established were most people were comfortable with them and even then we were still fighting remenants of their armies in the galaxy.

[Dynaman]

Also, I can't fault the tv show/movie for portraying humanity forgiving the vajra quickly any more than the equally quick way the vajra forgive the humans

The Vajra, being a single mind (more or less, instant communication and understanding at any rate) would all have forgiven humanity the instant they figured out that humans were not the same - the idea that some humans could be evil while others were not would be totally alien to them, but once one of them understood it then they would all understand it.

[Gubaba]

Also....we would've been wiped out honestly. When you think about it the Vajra were also advanced in warfare being able to adapt to weapons and developing defenses for them. Yes Dimension Eaters work but how many do we really have or for how long can we keep that up? I would rather make peace with a race that could easily defeat me in the long run than be angry. But yes there will be Anti-Vajra sentiment just as their was with Zentradi. It took a couple of decades before true peace with Zentradis was established were most people were comfortable with them and even then we were still fighting remenants of their armies in the galaxy.

Funnily enough, on another forum, one guy who was talking about how the Vajra should've been wiped out was also using the odd term "humantradi" for humans and Zentradi joined...and completely missed the irony.

[jenius]

The problem with the vajra is they're an enemy with no personality. The zentraedi were fun to watch in the original show.

[Radd]

The Vajra, being a single mind (more or less, instant communication and understanding at any rate) would all have forgiven humanity the instant they figured out that humans were not the same - the idea that some humans could be evil while others were not would be totally alien to them, but once one of them understood it then they would all understand it.

That's a fair point!

[ChronoReverse]

WTF. The entire point of Frontier in both incarnations was to show the Vajra, while entirely alien to us, still had feelings and were certainly intelligent.

Furthermore, humans were the aggressors in both scenarios and frankly the Vajra would've been justified in crushing the weird aliens that are killing and harvesting their body parts. Not to mention trying to hijack their central brain!

Frankly, what's more unbelievable (but I feel the Vajra are more benevolent than humans are overall) is that the Vajra decided against annihilating humans in both scenarios (movie and TV). Especially in the movie where it chose to believe Alto instead of the multiple Heavy Quantum Cannon beams heading for its face.

[Gubaba]

WTF. The entire point of Frontier in both incarnations was to show the Vajra, while entirely alien to us, still had feelings and were certainly intelligent.

Furthermore, humans were the aggressors in both scenarios and frankly the Vajra would've been justified in crushing the weird aliens that are killing and harvesting their body parts. Not to mention trying to hijack their central brain!

Frankly, what's more unbelievable (but I feel the Vajra are more benevolent than humans are overall) is that the Vajra decided against annihilating humans in both scenarios (movie and TV). Especially in the movie where it chose to believe Alto instead of the multiple Heavy Quantum Cannon beams heading for its face.

I think we can all agree that NastyNate missed the entire point of the show.

[Radd]

Frankly, what's more unbelievable (but I feel the Vajra are more benevolent than humans are overall) is that the Vajra decided against annihilating humans in both scenarios (movie and TV). Especially in the movie where it chose to believe Alto instead of the multiple Heavy Quantum Cannon beams heading for its face.

I dunno. Consider this, Alto was communicating with them directly, mind to mind, via the Vajra network. Basically, in an instant the Vajra knew every single memory, emotion and experience that made up Alto. And through him, Sheryl and Ranka, who were also connected in addition to the Galaxy conspirators, giving the Vajra a pretty broad and complete view of what was going on more than anyone else in the show.

[ChronoReverse]

I dunno. Consider this, Alto was communicating with them directly, mind to mind, via the Vajra network. Basically, in an instant the Vajra knew every single memory, emotion and experience that made up Alto. And through him, Sheryl and Ranka, who were also connected in addition to the Galaxy conspirators, giving the Vajra a pretty broad and complete view of what was going on more than anyone else in the show.

True enough. Still, sometimes it's hard to argue with multiple wave motion cannons in your face =P

But yeah, the Vajra did get the benefit of direct mindlink with Alto.

[Renato]

♪ "All creatures great and small..."　♪

[Graham]

♪ "All creatures great and small..."　♪

Which brings to mind the Monty Python version:

♪ "All things dull and ugly,

All creatures short and squat,

All things rude and nasty,

The Lord God made the lot.

Each little snake that poisons,

Each little wasp that stings,

He made their brutish venom.

He made their horrid wings.

All things sick and cancerous,

All evil great and small,

All things foul and dangerous,

The Lord God made them all.

Each nasty little hornet,

Each beastly little squid--

Who made the spikey urchin?

Who made the sharks? He did!

All things scabbed and ulcerous,

All pox both great and small,

Putrid, foul and gangrenous,

The Lord God made them all". ♪

Quite apt for describing the Vajra, damn those bugs!

Graham

[kalvasflam]

Well, the problem here is obviously that the Vajra aren't just going to sit back and let themselves get slugged into nothingness. And human victory against the Vajra is anything but a sure bet...so if you CAN communicate with them, you probably SHOULD...or else millions, perhaps billions, of people get killed for pretty much no reason.

As a famous and probably the "BEST" president once said: "BRING IT ON"

Heh heh, it is more than likely that humans would become very hard pressed, very fast. You just had to look at episode 25 to see how badly it would've come out for the humans, albeit, Grace/Galaxy cabal knew the location of every human outpost, so while humans might have had isolated victories, Vajra would just zerg swarm humans to death. You just had to look at Macross 11 to see that no one would've been safe.

[Bri]

Heh heh, it is more than likely that humans would become very hard pressed, very fast. You just had to look at episode 25 to see how badly it would've come out for the humans, albeit, Grace/Galaxy cabal knew the location of every human outpost, so while humans might have had isolated victories, Vajra would just zerg swarm humans to death. You just had to look at Macross 11 to see that no one would've been safe.

Indeed. Also Grace controlled only one hive trough it's queen. Ranka showed us in ep 25 that there are other hives in other galaxies. Imagine the Vajra calling for back up. Even the protoculture were restricted to our own Milkyway Galaxy. The Vajra play in a higher league.