Emulating alien technologies in Macross

[RedWolf]

Various Macross series starting with SDF Macross TV has the premise of copying alien technologies. Mactross Frontier series and movies make it a plot point.

Macross Zero

The Anti-UN develop their own Variable Fighter the SV-51 and their own answer to the Destroid in the Octos. A race between the UN Forces and Anti-UN to obtain the AFOS to their hands.

SDF Macross

The UNG had copied the overtechnology the SDF Macross causing a technological revolution. Further contact with the Zentradi make it more so. The Zentradi themselves learn from Humans how their own technology works. This is an effect of their cultural integration. Even Quamzin appreciates it.

Macross M3

Rebel Zentradi develop their own variable mecha with the Variable Glaug. They even create the original Final Weapon which is a combiner.

Macross 7

The Protodevlin absorb the Varauta fleet expedition along with them their technology. And this is not the first time they did it. They did so during the Protoculture-Protodevlin war. Building their own ships and Variable Fighters, which was identifiable derived from the VF-14 Vampire.

Macross VF-X

Rebel Zentradi build upgraded versions of their mecha. Also the Feios Valkyrie which was a match for the VF-19 and VF-22 of the time. Speculation a stolen VF-11 prototype led to the Feios development.

Macross VF-X2

This time it is the military industrial complex conspiracy Rakutensu selling to both sides, UN Spacy and Zentradi insurgents. To field test weapons they were developing.

Macross Frontier

Escalating arms race between Frontier, Galaxy and the Vajra. Some Vajjra forms are reminiscent of Zentradi technology. According to Grace O'Connor the Protoculture created the Bird Human in the Vajra Queen's image. Both Frontier and Galaxy trying to exploit Fold Quartz which the Vajra create.

Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye

Where as the TV series implied the Protoculture copies the Vajra this movie posses the question if the Vajra copy from their opponents. Even before Humanity made first contact with the Vajra, the Vajra fought and destroyed a Boddole Zer Fortress, turning it to a nest much like the Guantanamo in the TV series. A new type of Vajra shows up that is big and has large cannons which seems to be emulating the VB-6 Konig Monster function. So does that imply the Vajra in their rapid adaptation strategy copy their opponents?

Edited October 29, 2011 by RedWolf

[miles316]

I was thinking the Anti-UN forces might have found a dead varja either the old Soviet union and it was in a warehouse for 80 years on till the knowledge of Super dimension energy and reaction technology was gleamed from the wreck of Macros and based the Octos on the large red Varja when I first watched Frontier.

Edited October 29, 2011 by miles316

[Kurisama]

Mac Zero - other way around, the U.N Spacey 'acquired' the tech for the VF-0 and destroids from the Anti-U.N.

[Seto Kaiba]

Various Macross series starting with SDF Macross TV has the premise of copying alien technologies. Mactross Frontier series and movies make it a plot point.

Macross Zero

SDF Macross

Macross M3

Macross 7

Macross VF-X

Macross VF-X2

Macross Frontier

Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye

You missed one... the advancements in overtechnology that made the VF-2SS, etc. possible in Macross II: Lovers Again came from reverse engineering (copying) the overtechnology from captured Zentradi factory satellites.

[Gubaba]

You missed one... the advancements in overtechnology that made the VF-2SS, etc. possible in Macross II: Lovers Again came from reverse engineering (copying) the overtechnology from captured Zentradi factory satellites.

You? Bringing up Macross II?

Color me shocked.

[RedWolf]

Mac Zero - other way around, the U.N Spacey 'acquired' the tech for the VF-0 and destroids from the Anti-U.N.

Overtechnology was studied all over the world under the UNG. The Anti-UN illicitly obtained the SV-51. Meaning Sukhoi/Israel Aircraft Industries/Dornier sold out to the Anti-UN.

So no you are wrong in that. Remember the Anti-UN is a rebellion against the world government. The difference between the SV-51 and VF-0 is that the SV-51 from the onset was a deployed combat fighter while the VF-0 is just a development stage as the VF-1 is being massed produced.

When the SV-51 was deployed the Unification War was officially over as the Russian Anti-UN forces already withdrew from the Anti-UN Alliance.

You missed one... the advancements in overtechnology that made the VF-2SS, etc. possible in Macross II: Lovers Again came from reverse engineering (copying) the overtechnology from captured Zentradi factory satellites.

Thank you for that info. You are after all the Macross II continuity expert.

[Seto Kaiba]

You? Bringing up Macross II?

Color me shocked.

Blew your mind, did I?

Overtechnology was studied all over the world under the UNG. The Anti-UN illicitly obtained the SV-51. Meaning Sukhoi/Israel Aircraft Industries/Dornier sold out to the Anti-UN.

D.D. and Nora say otherwise in Macross Zero... in one of their conversations in the OVA, they say something to the effect that the UN didn't develop the variable system on its own, but rather acquired it from its original creators. I'd have to dig out my M0 Blu-Rays to be sure of the exact line, but that's probably what Kurisama is talking about.

Thank you for that info. You are after all the Macross II continuity expert.

No problem.

[RedWolf]

D.D. and Nora say otherwise in Macross Zero... in one of their conversations in the OVA, they say something to the effect that the UN didn't develop the variable system on its own, but rather acquired it from its original creators. I'd have to dig out my M0 Blu-Rays to be sure of the exact line, but that's probably what Kurisama is talking about.

That's just hubris on Nora's part really. She hates the UNG so much she would twist it that it was the UNG that stole from them.

OTEC was in charge of the study of Overtechnology so Nora can't claim the UNG stole it from them.

[Gubaba]

Blew your mind, did I?

Totally. I was like, "Whoa." And then everybody was like, "Whoa..."

That's just hubris on Nora's part really. She hates the UNG so much she would twist it that it was the UNG that stole from them.

Source...?

[Seto Kaiba]

That's just hubris on Nora's part really. She hates the UNG so much she would twist it that it was the UNG that stole from them.

OTEC was in charge of the study of Overtechnology so Nora can't claim the UNG stole it from them.

Eh... I don't think we can definitively say that Nora was lying or twisting the truth here.

Granted, OTEC was the agency responsible for researching the alien technology from the Macross... they just weren't the only ones developing practical applications of their discoveries. It's entirely possible that she's telling the truth, and that the variable system was developed by a company either in her homeland or one of the companies involved in the development of the AUN's mecha, and was legitimately appropriated by the UN for its weapons development programme. As a national separatist, Nora'd definitely be inclined to see it as theft because she's opposed to the UN and thus any technology-sharing initiatives it may have initiated.

[RedWolf]

Totally. I was like, "Whoa." And then everybody was like, "Whoa..."

Source...?

The entire VF development history that is.

February 2002

• Tentative plan introduced for an all-regime variable fighter for use against the giants. The VF-0 Project starts.
  

2003

[Development begins on a competing fighter [to be known as] VF-X-2 to the fighter [to be known as] VF-1. ]

December 2004

• First VF-0 variable fighter completed. (Macross History version 2008)
  
• Basic design of variable fighter system completed.
  

• [Development begins on a fighter [to be known as] VF-X-3.]
  
• [Development begins on a fighter [to be known as] VF-X-4.]
  

November 2007

• [Decision made to formally adopt the VF-X1. VF-1 series mass production [scheduled to] begin.]
  

And most importantly.

http://macross.anime.net/wiki/SV-51

Top secret variable fighter reportedly developed with Overtechnology obtained illicitly from the U.N. variable fighter development. (Details of this are unknown.) Like the VF-0, it is an advance trial production model equipped with conventional engines, developed before planned variable fighters with thermonuclear turbine engines. The SV-51 is first combat-type variable fighter (VF), in history, that members of the Anti-UN Alliance developed for combat against giant aliens. Although it was a developmental unit like the VF-0 Phoenix of the UN, it was considered for use in actual combat from the beginning unlike the VF-0, which was hastily equipped for combat.

The VF-0 and SV-51 were competing designs but the Anti-UN co-opted the SV-51 for their own.

Nora was just full of herself. It's not as if the Anti-UN has their hands on the ASS-1 else they wouldn't attack South Ataria time and time again. Remember Nora is a fanatic she'd credit her side rather than give credit to the UNG.

Edited October 30, 2011 by RedWolf

[Gubaba]

The VF-0 and SV-51 were competing designs but the Anti-UN co-opted the SV-51 for their own.

Nora was just full of herself. It's not as if the Anti-UN has their hands on the ASS-1 else they wouldn't attack South Ataria time and time again. Remember Nora is a fanatic she'd credit her side rather than give credit to the UNG.

Enh...what does Macross Chronicle say...?

[Seto Kaiba]

Enh...what does Macross Chronicle say...?

IIRC, it only talks about the specific development, capabilities, and service history of the SV-51 itself...

The entire VF development history that is.

Which is all well and good, but doesn't address the actual point of contention... namely, the circumstances under which the UN acquired the variable system. Nora isn't saying that they developed a working VF before the UN did. She's saying that the UN "obtained" the technology that makes the transformation possible and/or the design concept from some company or group with ties to the AUN. Nothing you've quoted there renders that assertion impossible.

[Kurisama]

So no you are wrong in that.

No need to be so harsh - chillax dude. If I am wrong, there are more diplomatic ways to go about it - jeez.

D.D. and Nora say otherwise in Macross Zero... in one of their conversations in the OVA, they say something to the effect that the UN didn't develop the variable system on its own, but rather acquired it from its original creators. I'd have to dig out my M0 Blu-Rays to be sure of the exact line, but that's probably what Kurisama is talking about.

That's right, Seto - I was thinking about that. It's been a while since I watched Zero, but I was under the impression that the crazy wheel chair guy worked with the UN, then defected, or something to that effect and then the UN took whatever he had developed and ran with it to develop the VF-0 - so as I understood it, the SV-51 was the original contender for the main fighter for the UN. Either way - wotevs, lol. Imma just gunna play with my 1/60 M.Zero valks! Weeeee!

[miles316]

No need to be so harsh - chillax dude. If I am wrong, there are more diplomatic ways to go about it - jeez.

That's right, Seto - I was thinking about that. It's been a while since I watched Zero, but I was under the impression that the crazy wheel chair guy worked with the UN, then defected, or something to that effect and then the UN took whatever he had developed and ran with it to develop the VF-0 - so as I understood it, the SV-51 was the original contender for the main fighter for the UN. Either way - wotevs, lol. Imma just gunna play with my 1/60 M.Zero valks! Weeeee!

The old man was a geneticist not a mechanical engineer .

[anime52k8]

2003

[Development begins on a competing fighter [to be known as] VF-X-2 to the fighter [to be known as] VF-1. ]

You know what would be really awesome, if we could get a master file type book (i.e. written form an in universe perspective) talking about VF development history focusing on Designs that exist canonically but have never been seen in any form before like the VF-X-2, the VF-5 and the VF-15/16. Having some form of art and little bit of development/operation history to go with these ultra obscure craft would be the best thing ever.

Edited October 31, 2011 by anime52k8

[Kurisama]

I always thought that this would be awesome;

2005 - November; In an Anti-U.N. Army retaliatory attack on the U.N. Forces, the under-construction Grand Cannon II is destroyed in Australia. - http://macross.anime.net/story/chronology/1999/index.html Think about it, more Octos/SV-51 & VF-0 action!

[RedWolf]

I always thought that this would be awesome;

2005 - November; In an Anti-U.N. Army retaliatory attack on the U.N. Forces, the under-construction Grand Cannon II is destroyed in Australia. - http://macross.anime...1999/index.html Think about it, more Octos/SV-51 & VF-0 action!

Could be an assault using reaction weapon to damage something as big as a Grand Cannon. The Anti-UN is lacking in the space forces department that they had to steal from the UN at one time.

Edited October 31, 2011 by RedWolf

[sketchley]

You know what would be really awesome, if we could get a master file type book (i.e. written form an in universe perspective) talking about VF development history focusing on Designs that exist canonically but have never been seen in any form before like the VF-X-2, the VF-5 and the VF-15/16. Having some form of art and little bit of development/operation history to go with these ultra obscure craft would be the best thing ever.

But the master files already do? At the very least, they talk about them in passing. If we ever get a VF-11 book, we'll have all of those unseen VFs covered.

But the master file books shouldn't be the source - as the writers themselves state that they are not part of the official setting. Macross Chronicle is the way to go.

Anyhow, the best list of all the VFs (with some notations of the heretofore unseen and only mentioned briefly in passing) that I've cobbled together over the years: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/Statistics.htm#Variable_Fighters

(Be warned, it's a work in progress, as is all things with Macross; bound to be updated with the next publication/series, and bound to have entries not officially part of the official setting (maybe they were at one time, maybe they never were).

[Seto Kaiba]

That's right, Seto - I was thinking about that. It's been a while since I watched Zero, but I was under the impression that the crazy wheel chair guy worked with the UN, then defected, or something to that effect and then the UN took whatever he had developed and ran with it to develop the VF-0

Hm... I think you've got the right idea, but rather the wrong culprit. As miles316 pointed out, the old man was a geneticist who studied the people of Mayan. The defector with all the VF know-how was Roy's mentor, D.D. Ivanov.

Having some form of art and little bit of development/operation history to go with these ultra obscure craft would be the best thing ever.

Totally... esp. since Macross Chronicle teased us a little by throwing several of the Advanced Valkyrie designs into the Variable Fighter "genealogy" chart, incl. the VF-X-7. I'd prefer it to be in a canon source, but I'll cheerfully take something like Master File if they do it first.

[Zinjo]

One of the reasons why I like Zero is that it is so politically muddy.

Modern politics is never black and white. One mans rebel is another man's liberator.

I think they dropped the ball with giving the appearance that Isreal joined the AUN, even covertly. A fairly rookie mistake when one considers world politics. I can see members like China, Russia, Arab states, even Germany joining for various self serving reasons, but not Israel.

I find that era to be very facinating. How does one cobble together a cohesive world government with so many divergent interests pulling things apart?

I still find it hard to accept that the Mayan Island incident was the final breath of the AUN movement, particularly with the deployment of the SV-51 and the Octos! That struck me more as a beginning of an escalation not an end.

[RedWolf]

Macross Frontier elaborates the Bird Human is an attempt by the Protoculture to emulate the Vajra Queen.

In Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye with the 50 year old Boddole wreck turned nest one would question if the Vajra's interaction with Zentradi caused a leap in war capabilities.

Green Vajra resemble Reguld, Red Vajra resemble the Glaug, the Vajra Knight class warship resembling the Quiltra-Quelamitz class gunboat.

Or is it the other way around the Protoculture basing aesthetics of their mecha on the Vajra.

Edited November 2, 2011 by RedWolf

[Keith]

I still find it hard to accept that the Mayan Island incident was the final breath of the AUN movement, particularly with the deployment of the SV-51 and the Octos! That struck me more as a beginning of an escalation not an end.

Except at that point they lost thier super carrier/sub, likely the lions-share of their prototype fighters, and had nothing to show for it. No AFOS, no more Protoculture research scientist, and no data showing the SV-51 would seriously outmatch the VF-0 or VF-1. They lost their stolen space carriers after the Mars incident, and who knows how they stood economically after the U.N. war in general.

The U.N. Spacy on the other hand had:

Viable data from the AFOS

Possession of the Macross

A full line of VF-1's about to roll out

A sizable space fleet if early Macross episodes are anything to go by

SV-51 reckage to flaunt

Grand Cannons about to roll out, etc

That's enough to halt hostilities, and when the Zentradi popped up, enough to declare any major cease fire due to impending threat. When Bodolza nuked the Earth, it was no longer an issue.

Macross Frontier elaborates the Bird Human is an attempt by the Protoculture to emulate the Vajra Queen.

In Macross Frontier Wings of Goodbye with the 50 year old Boddole wreck turned nest one would question if the Vajra's interaction with Zentradi caused a leap in war capabilities.

Green Vajra resemble Reguld, Red Vajra resemble the Glaug, the Vajra Knight class warship resembling the Quiltra-Quelamitz class gunboat.

Or is it the other way around the Protoculture basing aesthetics of their mecha on the Vajra.

Tough call. I'd wager the Vajra had beam weapons & fold ability. Beam weapons originally used to mine fold quartz, and fold for travel. Projectile weapons & missiles likely came from interaction with the Protoculture & Zentradi. As for their ships, likely they had some kind of hive vessels for travelling long distances that became more battleship like after dealing with the PC & Zentradi.

How bugs n sci-fi adapt combat weaponry is anyones guess.

[Zinjo]

Except at that point they lost thier super carrier/sub, likely the lions-share of their prototype fighters, and had nothing to show for it. No AFOS, no more Protoculture research scientist, and no data showing the SV-51 would seriously outmatch the VF-0 or VF-1. They lost their stolen space carriers after the Mars incident, and who knows how they stood economically after the U.N. war in general.

OK, you are confusing equipment and objectives for the reason they were fighting in the first place...

They could have been fighting for any of the following reasons or combination thereof:

- Different ideological uses for the ASS technology

- Different beliefs in how the Earth should be mobilized for defence against an alien threat

- Maintaining the status quo on energy production and or the power that monopoly wields

- Controlling the "new" energy & technology

- Political and power aspirations of certain people or nations

The U.N. Spacy on the other hand had:

Viable data from the AFOS

Possession of the Macross

A full line of VF-1's about to roll out

A sizable space fleet if early Macross episodes are anything to go by

SV-51 reckage to flaunt

Grand Cannons about to roll out, etc

All objectives and equipment. The AUN-A had the capability of building capital ships as well as deploying mecha and advanced variable fighters under the nose of the UNG. That did not disappear with the loss of the Mayan Island battle. They also had an effective spy network capable of "acquiring" technology and information from UNG and OTEC sources.

You are confusing a geneticist with a PC scientist. We have no idea how many scientists and engineers were working for or sympathetic to the AUN cause.

The infrastructure to secretly build a submersible carrier, mecha and variable fighters is rather huge and would not just suddenly disappear or be abandoned as a result of "one" lost battle.

That's enough to halt hostilities, and when the Zentradi popped up, enough to declare any major cease fire due to impending threat. When Bodolza nuked the Earth, it was no longer an issue.

The loss of objectives and equipment is not at all "enough to halt hostilities", history has proven that over and over. A myopic view of world history and current events would assume such and it would also be unfortunately ill informed.

The arrival of the Zentradi certainly ended any debate over what was in humanities best interest, but there was a period of 6 months were hostilities were still active and eventually simmering until the alien attack.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Zinjo

[miles316]

.

OK, you are confusing equipment and objectives for the reason they were fighting in the first place...

They could have been fighting for any of the following reasons or combination thereof:

- Different ideological uses for the ASS technology

- Different beliefs in how the Earth should be mobilized for defence against an alien threat

- Maintaining the status quo on energy production and or the power that monopoly wields

- Controlling the "new" energy & technology

- Political and power aspirations of certain people or nations

All objectives and equipment. The AUN-A had the capability of building capital ships as well as deploying mecha and advanced variable fighters under the nose of the UNG. That did not disappear with the loss of the Mayan Island battle. They also had an effective spy network capable of "acquiring" technology and information from UNG and OTEC sources.

You are confusing a geneticist with a PC scientist. We have no idea how many scientists and engineers were working for or sympathetic to the AUN cause.

The infrastructure to secretly build a submersible carrier, mecha and variable fighters is rather huge and would not just suddenly disappear or be abandoned as a result of "one" lost battle.

The loss of objectives and equipment is not at all "enough to halt hostilities", history has proven that over and over. A myopic view of world history and current events would assume such and it would also be unfortunately ill informed.

The arrival of the Zentradi certainly ended any debate over what was in humanities best interest, but there was a period of 6 months were hostilities were still active and eventually simmering until the alien attack.

Their is net that many places on earth one can construct a large ship like the AUN subcarrier and the UN has the ability to access space at will so satalite survailance is probably dirt cheap with little gap in coverage meaning it would be dificult for the AUN to move with out their subcarrier. Building more would be dificult and since the AUN SV-51 are dependent on Jet fuel they have very short ranges making any offencive combat difficult so ontill the AUN Mastered compact reaction engines they would be stuck on the defenceive.

[Zinjo]

Their is net that many places on earth one can construct a large ship like the AUN subcarrier and the UN has the ability to access space at will so satalite survailance is probably dirt cheap with little gap in coverage meaning it would be dificult for the AUN to move with out their subcarrier. Building more would be dificult and since the AUN SV-51 are dependent on Jet fuel they have very short ranges making any offencive combat difficult so ontill the AUN Mastered compact reaction engines they would be stuck on the defenceive.

Subteranean caves are a good place, be they natural or man made. Satellites however useful can be and have been fooled before. Then there is the need for "evidence" to conduct attacks on autonomous nations harboring the AUNA without compelling evidence. If you are wrong there will be hell to pay. Keep in mind the UNG is still very young and the political pressures to keep it together are huge. The last thing they can afford is a military attack of any kind that would jeopardize the peace. The evidence would have to be incredibly compelling and an imminent threat proven. The latter would require proof of "intent", not an easy thing.

As for the SV-51 needing jet fuel, acquiring that through sympathetic governments would not be difficult. The difficulty is evading satellites once they are finished their attack. I've always thought the Auerstädt was not very well thought out design and often wondered if a better one was ever developed.

The AUN didn't master technologies independent of the UNG or OTEC. We get a pretty clear message that they had spies and sympathizers at OTEC to get the technology they needed. The SV-52 Oryol used nuclear engines and it was developed in parallel to the Valkyrie to combat the giant aliens according to the compendium. It is not really known if the Oryol was deployed in combat against the Valkyrie, all we know was that most didn't survive SW1.

[azrael]

The SV-52 Oryol used nuclear engines and it was developed in parallel to the Valkyrie to combat the giant aliens according to the compendium. It is not really known if the Oryol was deployed in combat against the Valkyrie, all we know was that most didn't survive SW1.

That should be "SV-52". Not "SV-52 Oryol". The "SV-52 Oryol" is a Vanquish-customized VF based more off the SV-51 than the actual SV-52.

[Zinjo]

That should be "SV-52". Not "SV-52 Oryol". The "SV-52 Oryol" is a Vanquish-customized VF based more off the SV-51 than the actual SV-52.

Thanks for the clarification