HG and Robotech Debates, ep. 8

[Einherjar]

Imagine what could have been if HG had DYRL. Rick and Minmei having and dandy night clubbing in Macross City followed by a picnic in Saturn's rings for no reason.

The strange statements that Robotech's continuity (haha) has fared better than Macross and the offhand remark about the quality of Macross's sequels is kind of distracting. Some old anime fans are coming across as bitter these days because some people lied to them about anime back in the day.

That's pretty consistent with Robotech fans, both loyal and disillusioned, don't you think? They're really putting themselves in a Catch-22; Robotech isn't as enduring or wholesome as before, but neither is Macross sequels because it's not as "epic" as the original one was and more childish in their minds. Or, perhaps it is not as "epic" as Robotech supposedly made that chapter in the various reiterations through different media for those who invested so much in it. Either way, in the foreseeable future, with Love Live Alive especially, it's not going to get better.

The author's criticisms reminds me of CaptainJLS' critique of Macross Frontier years ago. I'm not sure, but seeing people look at Macross sequels using the Robotech version as the meter stick, or having a huge bias towards it, doesn't seem like the best fit.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Einherjar

[chrisk]

AKIRA IS GETTING MADE AND TETSUO IS WHITE?!

And I thought Robotech will be the first big budget anime flick bastardized to the big Hollywood screen.

[azrael]

That's pretty consistent with Robotech fans, both loyal and disillusioned, don't you think? They're really putting themselves in a Catch-22; Robotech isn't as enduring or wholesome as before, but neither is Macross sequels because it's not as "epic" as the original one was and more childish in their minds...

That would be the nostalgia talking. Let's face it, nothing is as good as it once was. People create that artificial expectation. And it comes from both sides of the aisle.

I'm not sure, but seeing people look at Macross sequels using the Robotech version as the meter stick, or having a huge bias towards it, doesn't seem like the best fit.

It never is. While they appear to be similar, the context of the shows are fairly different and the subsequent follow-ups go their own ways so you have to ask are we comparing oranges to oranges or oranges to limes. They look the same, but that usually where the comparison ends.

[VF5SS]

I suppose the idea of a general storyline involving generations of soldiers standing to those damn xeno bastards might seem more epic on paper, but paper is a funny thing that gets soggy when wet and burns at 451 degrees Fahrenheit. In practice, Robotech's idea of such a storyline falls apart the moment they switch shows. And because of the standalone nature of the original shows, they do absolutely nothing to compliment each other to build a sense of a larger world outside of the superficial. Yes there is a common theme of ordinary soldiers standing up to the system, but that's so common in Japanese science fiction (or any fiction in general) that it's kind of redundant to praise Robotech for simply repacking what was already there.

What was Captain JLS's criticism anyway? Is he the guy with the better podcast? I remember one guy talking about how Frontier's opening episodes showed that Macross was still a living, breathing universe. In fact it's rather damning to Robotech when the first episode of Plus and/or 7 did more to expand the Macross setting than 85 episodes of Robotech ever did. Shadow Chronicles couldn't even do that in an hour and a half.

[Einherjar]

I suppose the idea of a general storyline involving generations of soldiers standing to those damn xeno bastards might seem more epic on paper, but paper is a funny thing that gets soggy when wet and burns at 451 degrees Fahrenheit. In practice, Robotech's idea of such a storyline falls apart the moment they switch shows. And because of the standalone nature of the original shows, they do absolutely nothing to compliment each other to build a sense of a larger world outside of the superficial. Yes there is a common theme of ordinary soldiers standing up to the system, but that's so common in Japanese science fiction (or any fiction in general) that it's kind of redundant to praise Robotech for simply repacking what was already there.

I guess that's why Robotech was marketed to children who wouldn't know that difference and potentially swear by it when they get older.

What was Captain JLS's criticism anyway? Is he the guy with the better podcast? I remember one guy talking about how Frontier's opening episodes showed that Macross was still a living, breathing universe. In fact it's rather damning to Robotech when the first episode of Plus and/or 7 did more to expand the Macross setting than 85 episodes of Robotech ever did. Shadow Chronicles couldn't even do that in an hour and a half.

Unfortunately, I keep forgetting that the criticism post came from a guest blogger who pretty much had the same opinions about Frontier as JLS. I'd post a link, but it would be easier to refer to what you, azrael and I said about nostalgia and it not being Robotech.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Einherjar

[Darkwater]

I guess that's why Robotech was marketed to children who wouldn't know that difference and potentially swear by it when they get older.

I'd beg to differ. Even around 14, when I started watching Robotech again, I still didn't know they were separate series until I picked up an RPG book that explained it. A lot of the mecha (not all) was consistent with what would be a natural progression, and I attributed the change in uniforms to just like that of Start Trek, which had distinct changes between the original series, the movies, and the next generation. The only thing that felt really out of place was feudal-like armor they wore in Southern Cross, and the fact that the Masters were so different than the Zentradi, who they built.

[Jasonc]

Maybe this???http://sdf5x.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html. It sounds like he didn't like Frontier because he thinks it might just be a copy of SDF Macross. In previous blogs, Capt. JLS make some judgement, calling it unsubstantial and whatnot, and judges it based on one episode. In the link, his friend writes a review of it that he seems to side with, even though he's watched one episode. The review seems to come from a Robotech fan who supposedly knows about anime, and is probably a Robotech fan.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Jasonc

[azrael]

Maybe...

We probably went over this while Frontier was airing, but this highlight in bold on 9/15/2008 from that guest poster goes back to my point about nostalgia.

This is not my Macross, and I've watched them all, and enjoyed them all up until now. I don't know who this show is supposed to be for, because no one who appreciates Macross for the reasons I appreciate it could ever be a fan of this show. Maybe you don't agree with me -- many people don't, and that's fine.

As I said, people create this preconceived expectation of what they want. You, me, everyone. The statement drives the point home. You have this bar set in your mind and when something doesn't live up to it in your mind, it becomes the rally point for all the bad things. With all the years that have gone by with little RT, you have to wonder if that bar for RT fans has been raised to a point where nothing will meet that expectation.

[Jasonc]

Maybe...

We probably went over this while Frontier was airing, but this highlight in bold on 9/15/2008 from that guest poster goes back to my point about nostalgia.

As I said, people create this preconceived expectation of what they want. You, me, everyone. The statement drives the point home. You have this bar set in your mind and when something doesn't live up to it in your mind, it becomes the rally point for all the bad things. With all the years that have gone by with little RT, you have to wonder if that bar for RT fans has been raised to a point where nothing will meet that expectation.

I think you're right about expectations, especially when it comes to fans that get stuck in the vintage box. His statement is arrogant at best, and comes off as the fan whom all should set their bar to. In his review, it really just comes off as someone who doesn't know anime like they are claimed to know. As for the RT fans, the lunatic fringe has it set to where the only thing that can be better than original Robotech, is set by better packaging for the same series.

I try to keep an open mind when watching any anime series. Some, I find, not to suit me, and some that I never expected to like have me hooked. There are things that I didn't like all that much about Frontier, but if I judge an anime's worth by how much nostalgia I have for it since I was a kid, then no matter how fancy I write a review, or how eloquent I structure my words, I've already tunnel visioned the series, and my analysis is flawed, unless it's purely objective. I'm almost interested in knowing what that guy's reasons for appreciating Macross are? I'll bet they cover many, many people who are fans of Frontier. Then again, if one of his reasons are because it helped get Robotech over to the U.S., then I defer to my first paragraph and the first half of this one.

[Renato]

AKIRA IS GETTING MADE AND TETSUO IS WHITE?!

And I thought Robotech will be the first big budget anime flick bastardized to the big Hollywood screen.

"Robotech basatardized" LOL

[VF5SS]

A lot of the mecha (not all) was consistent with what would be a natural progression, and I attributed the change in uniforms to just like that of Start Trek, which had distinct changes between the original series, the movies, and the next generation. The only thing that felt really out of place was feudal-like armor they wore in Southern Cross, and the fact that the Masters were so different than the Zentradi, who they built.

That's really only because the two proceeding shows were made to capitalize on the first. Only in board strokes do the robots from Southern Cross and Mospeada resemble the Macross designs. It's like that idea that all them Gundams look alike. The uniforms really have no connection at all. Even Star Trek's change in uniforms seemed mostly natural and were helped by having recurring characters fill them out each time there was a major change.

The transition between shows was hella clunky. Like trying to shift from first to forth going backwards (i drive auto)

[Einherjar]

I'd beg to differ. Even around 14, when I started watching Robotech again, I still didn't know they were separate series until I picked up an RPG book that explained it. A lot of the mecha (not all) was consistent with what would be a natural progression, and I attributed the change in uniforms to just like that of Start Trek, which had distinct changes between the original series, the movies, and the next generation. The only thing that felt really out of place was feudal-like armor they wore in Southern Cross, and the fact that the Masters were so different than the Zentradi, who they built.

I guess, but it's still a vulnerable audience to deception like this. Women of Robotech and stuff.

[mecha2241]

AKIRA IS GETTING MADE AND TETSUO IS WHITE?!

And I thought Robotech will be the first big budget anime flick bastardized to the big Hollywood screen.

Actually both the Dragon Ball and Speed Racer movies already did this...

[Jasonc]

The issue I have with the Akira movie, and it's probably just me, but in most anime, the characters don't have distinct nationality features. Well, if anything, they look mostly white, if not mixed. In Akira, Kaneda looks asian. While not a major issue, it occured to me that most of these cartoon/anime made movies don't even try to make the characters look like they do in the originals. Is it just me, or does that bother anyone else. My opinion is that some of these replica movies take too many liberties. Robotech, by some remote chance that it actually does happen, won't look anything like the original Macross, but for these others, I dunno.

[Keith]

Actually both the Dragon Ball and Speed Racer movies already did this...

I actually kinda liked Speed Racer....

[Einherjar]

"Robotech basatardized" LOL

Yeah, that's a different beast altogether.

[kanedaestes]

Speed Racer I thought was an excellent film, one that I felt was true to the spirit of the show and one that a lot of people at first just didn't get. Most people I have talked to that actually saw the film really really enjoyed it. I feel it is a lot like Scott Pilgrim that way, a movie that didn't do that great in the box office but an amazing film none the less. Instead most of the masses would rather watch Avatar and Transformers.

[BeyondTheGrave]

Speed Racer I thought was an excellent film, one that I felt was true to the spirit of the show and one that a lot of people at first just didn't get. Most people I have talked to that actually saw the film really really enjoyed it. I feel it is a lot like Scott Pilgrim that way, a movie that didn't do that great in the box office but an amazing film none the less. Instead most of the masses would rather watch Avatar and Transformers.

They would rather watch avatar because it's more "original"

Maybe this???http://sdf5x.blogspot.com/2008_09_01_archive.html.

That was one of the crappiest reviews I've ever read. The comments are even a bigger waste of time.

I think you're right about expectations, especially when it comes to fans that get stuck in the vintage box. His statement is arrogant at best, and comes off as the fan whom all should set their bar to. In his review, it really just comes off as someone who doesn't know anime like they are claimed to know. As for the RT fans, the lunatic fringe has it set to where the only thing that can be better than original Robotech, is set by better packaging for the same series.

I try to keep an open mind when watching any anime series. Some, I find, not to suit me, and some that I never expected to like have me hooked. There are things that I didn't like all that much about Frontier, but if I judge an anime's worth by how much nostalgia I have for it since I was a kid, then no matter how fancy I write a review, or how eloquent I structure my words, I've already tunnel visioned the series, and my analysis is flawed, unless it's purely objective. I'm almost interested in knowing what that guy's reasons for appreciating Macross are? I'll bet they cover many, many people who are fans of Frontier. Then again, if one of his reasons are because it helped get Robotech over to the U.S., then I defer to my first paragraph and the first half of this one.

I think its morose that fans want that same feeling you get when you experience something for the first time.

I want the hoverbike and fanracer!!!

Omg he has the hoverbike!!!

Edited December 4, 2011 by BeyondTheGrave

[mecha2241]

I should have been more specific, I meant to address the whitewashing in Speed Racer and Dragon Ball. Of course with Speed Racer it can be argued that Speed's nationality isn't really established in the original show... Also I do think that visually Speed Racer delivers, but get's heavily docked points for any scene involving the kid and the chimp.

[Einherjar]

The issue I have with the Akira movie, and it's probably just me, but in most anime, the characters don't have distinct nationality features. Well, if anything, they look mostly white, if not mixed. In Akira, Kaneda looks asian. While not a major issue, it occured to me that most of these cartoon/anime made movies don't even try to make the characters look like they do in the originals. Is it just me, or does that bother anyone else. My opinion is that some of these replica movies take too many liberties. Robotech, by some remote chance that it actually does happen, won't look anything like the original Macross, but for these others, I dunno.

Maybe it wasn't as big of an issue because the people in the anime industry back then weren't expecting it to be seen outside of Asia or become so popular internationally. Foreign translators were the ones given a lot of freedom to interpret those kinds of things if details were left very vague, like in dialogue/accents, before accuracy became a big priority and probably made it an issue.

I think its morose that fans want that same feeling you get when you experience something for the first time.

I didn't know that's actually hard for some people to do when they get older.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Einherjar

[Reïvaj]

[...] Omg he has the hoverbike!!!

WTF? That's bloody horrible!

[Phyrox]

The issue I have with the Akira movie, and it's probably just me, but in most anime, the characters don't have distinct nationality features. Well, if anything, they look mostly white, if not mixed. In Akira, Kaneda looks asian. While not a major issue, it occured to me that most of these cartoon/anime made movies don't even try to make the characters look like they do in the originals. Is it just me, or does that bother anyone else. My opinion is that some of these replica movies take too many liberties. Robotech, by some remote chance that it actually does happen, won't look anything like the original Macross, but for these others, I dunno.

Who cares what the race in the original is? As long as the character and story are translated well, nationality, haircolor, even time period can be mixed around and still make for good entertainment and compelling fare.

Seven Samurai, awesome.

The Magnificent Seven, awesome.

A better example would be King Lear and Ran. Kurosawa took some liberties with the bard, but the essence was there, the compelling plot and character elements remained intact. No one want's a shitty "re-imagining," but if it's to be done well, who gives a care if the nation of origin of a character isn't what it was in the original.

If you love everything about the original, watch the original.

Someone wants to take the original and retell the same story, as long as it "works," more power to 'em.

[VF5SS]

The problem with hollywood's Akira is that they are taking a property with a very japanese name and changing it to an American setting and also keeping the character names while casting whitey mcwhitebread as Goku... Er I mean Testuo and Kaneda. It comes across as that weird Hollywood racism where they think people can't handle Asian leads outside of kung Fu movies.

[Einherjar]

Someone wants to take the original and retell the same story, as long as it "works," more power to 'em.

I think too many productions have used that excuse to justify a whole lot of questionable choices over the years. It would be a miracle if adaptations/reinterpretations end up like a The Magnificent Seven or Ran these days. Look at Robotech, still trying to reinvent itself years after its initial success. At one time or another you could say the things that came after episode 85 "worked" until it was replaced with something that "worked" better. And what eventually happens with the LAM will also "work" for whoever is doing it. The audience they're catering to, however, may think differently.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Einherjar

[eugimon]

I dunno, The Departed and A Bug's Life were both good.

[Darkwater]

I should have been more specific, I meant to address the whitewashing in Speed Racer and Dragon Ball. Of course with Speed Racer it can be argued that Speed's nationality isn't really established in the original show... Also I do think that visually Speed Racer delivers, but get's heavily docked points for any scene involving the kid and the chimp.

A lot of the Hollywood whitewashing comes from fear of how it'll sell in international markets. In the European & South American markets, movies with white characters simply do better. Granted, I think there are large enough markets in Asia to counter-balance that, but those are the main reasons why Hollywood is afraid to be more multi-cultural. Also, if a big Hollywood movie is based on something niche, like an anime, you need more than its core audience to support it.

[Einherjar]

I dunno, The Departed and A Bug's Life were both good.

Wow, I didn't know A Bug's Life was based on Seven Samaurai. Thanks wiki.

Pixar and Scorsese have been pretty consistent with their work. Compare those to the adaptations of anything in general that have bombed over the years, though.

[mecha2241]

A lot of the Hollywood whitewashing comes from fear of how it'll sell in international markets. In the European & South American markets, movies with white characters simply do better. Granted, I think there are large enough markets in Asia to counter-balance that, but those are the main reasons why Hollywood is afraid to be more multi-cultural. Also, if a big Hollywood movie is based on something niche, like an anime, you need more than its core audience to support it.

Oh I agree with what you're saying, I mean the bottom line is that most movies are made for the $$$. I guess since my wife is Asian I'm a little bit on the naive side and think that by now it should be acceptable to see Asian parts played by Asian actors when they are supposed to be main characters of a story. I was hoping we were things like the character Kato and shows like Kung Fu. Now what the hell any of this has to do with Robotech? Oh well, who cares...

[BeyondTheGrave]

David Carradine was asian?

[mecha2241]

David Carradine was asian?

No, that was my point, they used a white guy to play an Asian.

[EXO]

Who cares what the race in the original is? As long as the character and story are translated well, nationality, haircolor, even time period can be mixed around and still make for good entertainment and compelling fare.

Seven Samurai, awesome.

The Magnificent Seven, awesome.

A better example would be King Lear and Ran. Kurosawa took some liberties with the bard, but the essence was there, the compelling plot and character elements remained intact. No one want's a shitty "re-imagining," but if it's to be done well, who gives a care if the nation of origin of a character isn't what it was in the original.

If you love everything about the original, watch the original.

Someone wants to take the original and retell the same story, as long as it "works," more power to 'em.

Asking who cares is kind of a double standard. If people don't care then why is it so important to change it? Just like other people pointed out Hollywood doesn't think that if there isn't an American/Caucasian in the lead then it won't make as much money. If that's true then it's Hollywood that set up that stigma. But the fact that they often have to compromise the script just to bring an Asian story to a Hollywood studio by using Caucasians is sometimes ridiculous. Maybe not in the case of Akira, which is really something more of a universally themed story, but at the same time the need to Americanize it propagates the idea that you can't be a hero unless you're of European decent. The funny thing is though, that the system in Hollywood is so insane, that they demand either British or Australians to take these roles but play them as Americans now.

Again, Akira may not be the best example, but it is important in stories like Kung Fu... as mecha2241 pointed out they chose Davide Carradine over Bruce Lee and now they're making the 47 Ronin story with Keanu Reeves in the lead, etc. I'm not the biggest fan of Akira but I do wish that they would be faithful to the characters just to show that any story can take place anywhere and it'll still have the same impact. To me it adds realism to the story. Not everything important happens in L.A. or New york and not everything significant is done by Tom Cruise.

[Darkwater]

To me it adds realism to the story. Not everything important happens in L.A. or New york and not everything significant is done by Tom Cruise.

What are you talking about? It totally took a white guy to make the Japanese emperor realize how important the Samurai culture was.

[Reïvaj]

What are you talking about? It totally took a white guy to make the Japanese emperor realize how important the Samurai culture was.

Very true!

[azrael]

And to make this somewhat related to RT...makes me wonder what Rick Hunter is gonna look like.

That would pull in female watchers.... He's got the crazy hair in this pic.

[Einherjar]

So wait, Braveheart didn't single highhandedly win the Revolutionary War wielding a tomahawk?

...Minmei?

Edited December 5, 2011 by Einherjar