HG and Robotech Debates, ep. 8

[Gubaba]

Umm.., Gubaba... I believe if you re-read what I stated.. You even quoted part of what I said about lines being used for both. I was not giving Macek more credit then you belive is warranted. Please re-read what I wrote.

Oh and again... What episode did Rick Hunter tell Minmay "What's more important your hair or your life?" I really don't recall that.

Okay, you're right about that...it's not in Robotech. However, can you explain the AMAZING COINCIDENCE of, for example, in the same episode, "I don't care about YOU, how's the girl?" or perhaps an "Anti-Unificaton League" showing up in Episode 15, despite the arrival of the SDF-1 supposedly causing a cease-fire? How about Dana's "little brother"...?

As a Robotech fan I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm a Robotech fan and I'll pick it up and add it to my collection. Whether that makes me a "robotech tard" as SOME Macross fans would call me.... Well then so be it. But I'm a fan of Robotech even if it sucks.

Good for you. Why are you on a Macross forum again...?

[Mark Warlock]

You can’t recall that because it actually doesn’t appear in the RT show, but you can find it at RT.com presented as “Lost Footage”. Of course, that kind of invalidates Gubaba’s point

http://www.robotech....item.php?id=212

http://www.robotech....item.php?id=211

Ok, Thanks I was starting to think I was losing it.. I knew I'd never heard that in Robotech before.

[Gubaba]

Well I for one am not buying. In fact I haven't even bought one copy of Robotech on VHS or DVD. I remember the anime from the mid eighties and it was ok. What I really like were the novels and those I have. Its enough. If new Robotech isn't on par with modern standards animation and story telling wise I will not give them a single €. In fact I haven't even bought Shadow Chronicles since it was a pos. But then according to certain people I'm not a true robotech fan so what do I know anyway.

The novels are still lame. As James Luceno (half of "Jack McKinney") himself said, "Robotech is a show without a creator." They were making stuff up on the fly.

Macross, however, has creators. And most of the books written for the show (or movie) are written by at least one of those creators.

The Robotech novels are fanfic (i.e. written by people who didn't know any more than you or me), but the Macross novels were written by the people who CREATED the world of Macross.

[Mark Warlock]

Okay, you're right about that...it's not in Robotech. However, can you explain the AMAZING COINCIDENCE of, for example, in the same episode, "I don't care about YOU, how's the girl?" or perhaps an "Anti-Unificaton League" showing up in Episode 15, despite the arrival of the SDF-1 supposedly causing a cease-fire? How about Dana's "little brother"...?

Good for you. Why are you on a Macross forum again...?

Again re-read what I wrote I already had touched on that in my original post.

Why am I on a Macross forum... Well because I am also a Macross fan. Are you now saying that because I am a Robotech fan I can not be a Macross fan? Because I like Robotech I am not allowed on a Macross site? If this is so... Then Why are you on RTX.com?

[VF5SS]

I think you should leave your Robotech fandom on the coat rack.

[JuanRT]

Well...I wasn't talking about you...

But this is the only thread here RT fans check, and some of them seem to think it's the most active thread on the site.

They should be shown different, don't you think?

I will speak just for myself...

Been coming here for the longest time just to see the other point of view, in rt.com, most people there are ok with whatever they do with robotech, since is no secret that most people that don't agree are gone or banned.

I don't need to be converted in Macross, i'm already a fan and yes I don't like Macross 7 almost in the border of hate, not soo with the rest, I think Macross F was freaking good.

do i will post in other forums>??? maybe when and if I feel like it and I know there are some Robotech fans that won't forgive me for posting here, but I don't longer care.

I did not came here to troll, to complain about rt???? yes, but I have done that in all the forums ask around, Memo keeps telling me "vas a seguir con el berrinche?" this goes someting like are you keep on biching (or complaming)

[Gubaba]

Again re-read what I wrote I already had touched on that in my original post.

Yes, you said the scripts arrived after.

Do you have proof of this or no?

Why am I on a Macross forum... Well because I am also a Macross fan. Are you now saying that because I am a Robotech fan I can not be a Macross fan? Because I like Robotech I am not allowed on a Macross site? If this is so... Then Why are you on RTX.com?

Like most RT fans, you jump to assumptions when they serve you.

But, no. Sure, be a Robotech fan, if you want. I know that any post I make on RTX is crushing another Robotech fan's illusions. Can you say the same...?

I will speak just for myself...

Been coming here for the longest time just to see the other point of view, in rt.com, most people there are ok with whatever they do with robotech, since is no secret that most people that don't agree are gone or banned.

I don't need to be converted in Macross, i'm already a fan and yes I don't like Macross 7 almost in the border of hate, not soo with the rest, I think Macross F was freaking good.

do i will post in other forums>??? maybe when and if I feel like it and I know there are some Robotech fans that won't forgive me for posting here, but I don't longer care.

I did not came here to troll, to complain about rt???? yes, but I have done that in all the forums ask around, Memo keeps telling me "vas a seguir con el berrinche?" this goes someting like are you keep on biching (or complaming)

Again, if you've posted in other threads, then you're not who I'm talking about.

I mean, hell, I find it FASCINATING what Robotech fans dupe themselves into believing, but obviously, I don't think I should be banned from a Macross forum.

Do you want me to name names...? I can do that, I've just been too polite to.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Gubaba

[JuanRT]

Good for you. Why are you on a Macross forum again...?

read the tread HG and Robotech debate, that's why

Yes, you said the scripts arrived after.

Do you have proof of this or no?

Like most RT fans, you jump to assumptions when they serve you.

But, no. Sure, be a Robotech fan, if you want. I know that any post I make on RTX is crushing another Robotech fan's illusions. Can you say the same...?

so you are a troller in rtx.com? I got to ask

I think you should leave your Robotech fandom on the coat rack.

but why? I mean isn't that what HG do in rt.com? and every one hated it?

[Gubaba]

so you are a troller in rtx.com? I got to ask

Weren't you the one who asked me "Why the fuck are you here?" on RTX?

Can I ask you the same question now...?

[Mark Warlock]

Yes, you said the scripts arrived after.

Do you have proof of this or no?

Again... it's verifiable. All you have to do is be willing to look. I cited the recent Greg Snegoff interview. He was there. He would know.

Like most RT fans, you jump to assumptions when they serve you.

No, I was asking the question.. I never said you said that specifically. I was asking what you were implying. Now who is making assumptions.

But, no. Sure, be a Robotech fan, if you want. I know that any post I make on RTX is crushing another Robotech fan's illusions. Can you say the same...?

Thanks, I will remain a Robotech fan, but as I keep stating I am also a Macross fan. Well unlike you, apparently, I am not here to crush anybodies Anything. I originally came here for the Model and Custom threads and as I stated earlier morbid curiousity brought me to this thread. I honestly think this "anime" war that has gone on between the two camps is completely stupid. It doesn't accomplish anything but to each his own.

I'm still a believer that there is common ground for fans of both to get together and talk with respect toward one another. I saw that at MechaCon and I believe it still. Does that make me delusional? Who's to say... but doesn't mean I can't keep believing.

[Darkwater]

Just to feed the flames (this thread has gotten amusing), from my interview with Greg from 7 years (holy crap!) ago on 5/30/05:

SCN In regards to the way you translated the original Japanese dialogue, were you given the original scripts or translations? How close did you choose to stay to the original Japanese dialogue?

GS This is not going to make hardcore anime' fans happy but frankly the original Japanese dialogue was not up to our standards. In fact, afterwards, we received compliments from the Japanese who thought our dialogue and stories were better than the original. Things have changed since then but the animators tended to pay far more attention to visual aspects than to sound, including dialogue.

The translations of the original dialogue were nearly useless for two reasons, the main one being that, since Carl had basically ripped apart the original three series to use them as raw material, creating something entirely new and different, the translations ended up not being much good to us. He'd hand them out but they often caused more problems than they solved. And many episodes had no translation whatsoever. We wrote from scratch to a silent copy-try that as an exercise in concentration and story structure! Anyway, our stories have little to do with the originals for the reason that we tied together three disparate series that had nothing to do with each other.

There were also cultural differences that made us decide to change certain things-including editing out the usual snot bubbles, blood spatters and gratuitous panty shots.

[Gubaba]

Again... it's verifiable. All you have to do is be willing to look. I cited the recent Greg Snegoff interview. He was there. He would know.

True...but if he;s saying what I think you're saying he's saying (basically, that they made the scripts THEN looked at the translations), then I think he's either misinformed or lying.

No, I was asking the question.. I never said you said that specifically. I was asking what you were implying. Now who is making assumptions.

I'm not implying anything. I'm flat-out STATING that if he said they made the scripts before they looked at the translations, then he's lying.

Thanks, I will remain a Robotech fan, but as I keep stating I am also a Macross fan. Well unlike you, apparently, I am not here to crush anybodies Anything. I originally came here for the Model and Custom threads and as I stated earlier morbid curiousity brought me to this thread. I honestly think this "anime" war that has gone on between the two camps is completely stupid. It doesn't accomplish anything but to each his own.

Agreed. But, a question: How many Macross Zero vids on Youtube have the word "Robotech" attached to them? Conversely, how many Sentinels vids have the word "Macross" attached to them?

I see lots of Robotech fans trying to incorporate Macross-only stories into Robotech (Hell, Relak even came up with a way to fit Macross 7 into the party...just change Captain Mac Jenius into Captain Scott Bernard and you've got it!), but I haven't seen any Macross fans trying to fit Robotech into the Macross timeline.

Have you found any...?

I'm still a believer that there is common ground for fans of both to get together and talk with respect toward one another. I saw that at MechaCon and I believe it still. Does that make me delusional? Who's to say... but doesn't mean I can't keep believing.

Of course. But respect doesn't mean capitulation. You like Robotech. Great. Have fun. But why are you on a Macross site again...?

Just to feed the flames (this thread has gotten amusing), from my interview with Greg from 7 years (holy crap!) ago on 5/30/05:

Huh...Noboru Ishiguro's interview in Animag gives a VERY DIFFERENT view of the staff's reaction.

I wonder who's right...?

[Mark Warlock]

True...but if he;s saying what I think you're saying he's saying (basically, that they made the scripts THEN looked at the translations), then I think he's either misinformed or lying.

Well the post above yours with a portion of an interview says again that Macek didn't use the original translation. And again if you re-read my original post. I addressed similarities with the two.

I'm not implying anything. I'm flat-out STATING that if he said they made the scripts before they looked at the translations, then he's lying.

Quote

"Like most RT fans, you jump to assumptions when they serve you."

No, I was asking the question.. I never said you said that specifically. I was asking what you were implying. Now who is making assumptions.

This is what my comment was about.. It had nothing to do with Greg. I was responding to the way you lumped me in with a select group of Robotech fans. Not all Robotech fans hate Macross... Just like not all Macross fans hate Robotech.

Agreed. But, a question: How many Macross Zero vids on Youtube have the word "Robotech" attached to them? Conversely, how many Sentinels vids have the word "Macross" attached to them?

Not sure what this has to do with what I said... but Who the hell cares what others do in fanfic. Fanfic is spoken about with such contempt I wouldn't think that anyone who is a die hard fan of the other would give to shits about what some use for their fanfic.

I see lots of Robotech fans trying to incorporate Macross-only stories into Robotech (Hell, Relak even came up with a way to fit Macross 7 into the party...just change Captain Mac Jenius into Captain Scott Bernard and you've got it!), but I haven't seen any Macross fans trying to fit Robotech into the Macross timeline.

Have you found any...?

I haven't looked.. Personally I don't see any reason to use other Macross series or any other series to blend into Robotech that isnt already in the original 85, I'm in the air on DYRL... but that aside.. I have no reason to go looking for Macross fanfic because I prefer the original and the creators have added to it on their own. Now as for Robotech, I write Robotech fanfic, but I write it for me. Now if others like it.. well thats a bonus but personally I don't care if someone likes it because I write it for me. Just like the AMVs I throw together. I enjoy making them, I have fun doing it. But I only use Robotech footage with the Robotech title. If I decided to use Macross footage I will title it as such.

Of course. But respect doesn't mean capitulation. You like Robotech. Great. Have fun. But why are you on a Macross site again...?

I've already addressed this question. And with all due respect I will not answer it again. I sincerely hope you will respect my answers. I don't believe anyone could honestly say I am trolling or flame baiting.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Mark Warlock

[VF5SS]

Huh...Noboru Ishiguro's interview in Animag gives a VERY DIFFERENT view of the staff's reaction.

I wonder who's right...?

That whole snippet is so full of lies and sounds like he figured no one would watch both versions together.

Stop peddling ignorance, Robotech.

[Mark Warlock]

That whole snippet is so full of lies and sounds like he figured no one would watch both versions together.

Stop peddling ignorance, Robotech.

I'm curious... what are the lies and how do you know? Not trying to argue, but sincerely asking the question.

[Gubaba]

Well the post above yours with a portion of an interview says again that Macek didn't use the original translation.

I'm sorry, I simply don't believe that. The similarities between the two are too great.

Have you watched both versions?

And again if you re-read my original post. I addressed similarities with the two.

I'm sorry, I must be stupid. You keep asking me to re-read what you wrote, but I see nothing verifiable in your posts. What am I supposed to be re-reading again...?

Quote "Like most RT fans, you jump to assumptions when they serve you." No, I was asking the question.. I never said you said that specifically. I was asking what you were implying. Now who is making assumptions. This is what my comment was about.. It had nothing to do with Greg. I was responding to the way you lumped me in with a select group of Robotech fans. Not all Robotech fans hate Macross... Just like not all Macross fans hate Robotech. Not sure what this has to do with what I said... but Who the hell cares what others do in fanfic. Fanfic is spoken about with such contempt I wouldn't think that anyone who is a die hard fan of the other would give to shits about what some use for their fanfic. I haven't looked.. Personally I don't see any reason to use other Macross series or any other series to blend into Robotech that isnt already in the original 85, I'm in the air on DYRL... but that aside.. I have no reason to go looking for Macross fanfic because I prefer the original and the creators have added to it on their own. Now as for Robotech, I write Robotech fanfic, but I write it for me. Now if others like it.. well thats a bonus but personally I don't care if someone likes it because I write it for me. Just like the AMVs I throw together. I enjoy making them, I have fun doing it. But I only use Robotech footage with the Robotech title. If I decided to use Macross footage I will title it as such. I've already addressed this question. And with all due respect I will not answer it again. I sincerely hope you will respect my answers. I don't believe anyone could honestly say I am trolling or flame baiting.

Let's just say that I've had trouble before. I defended more than one Robotech fan as being sincere, when they were simply trolls trying to be as disruptive (and idiotic) as possible.

I figured I'd been made a patsy again, by someone who just wanted to argue about Robotech rather than discuss Macross. Am I wrong, and you're actually on the level...? How many Macross threads have you posted in recently?

Forgive me for probing, but, as I said, I've been burned before.

[VF5SS]

I'm curious... what are the lies and how do you know? Not trying to argue, but sincerely asking the question.

Gubaba knows the story better than I do because all I know is Stratos 4. However, he was able to explain the "Japanese staffers liked the new dialog better" rumor as just being some Tatsunoko staff saying the Robotech team did a good job.

Other things like the Animag interview, the closeness of the dialog and story despite the snarky edits, and other stuff are more proof that there's a lot of spin in that interview.

Gubaba-senpai knows first hand how Uncle Carl's own story about Robotech kept changing over the years.

[Old_Nash]

I met Macross from the Robotech.

So, she have my respect.

[Mark Warlock]

I'm sorry, I simply don't believe that. The similarities between the two are too great.

Have you watched both versions?

Yes I have.

I'm sorry, I must be stupid. You keep asking me to re-read what you wrote, but I see nothing verifiable in your posts. What am I supposed to be re-reading again...?

This goes back to what I orginally in my first post. About the use of a script to edit Robotech. I stated that it could be verified and it can be. I stated the recent Greg Snegoff interview touched on that. Other times I have told you to re-read because I felt that maybe you had missed something or that there was a miscommunication.

Let's just say that I've had trouble before. I defended more than one Robotech fan as being sincere, when they were simply trolls trying to be as disruptive (and idiotic) as possible.

I understand completely, which is why I am not gettin all pissy like some people tend to get. My name isn't something new in forums. I am on many forums. And I don't go to any site looking to troll or flame bait. I am sincere in what I ask and I to try to be as respectful as possible to those I encounter.

I figured I'd been made a patsy again, by someone who just wanted to argue about Robotech rather than discuss Macross. Am I wrong, and you're actually on the level...? How many Macross threads have you posted in recently?

You did something for me that no one else did behind the scenes (I think you know what I am refering too), and I sincerely thank you for that. It is also why in my first post early this morining aplogizing to you for posting here. You advised me to keep clear of this thread and I did so... Out of respect for what you did for me. Every now and then I look in this thread, as I said out of morbid curiousity. And when I saw something that I felt needed to be addressed I did so. This is after all a "Debate" thread and what is a debate with only one side? In short I am on the level, but I sincerely understand your skepticism. I dont take that personally, I know how things are.

Forgive me for probing, but, as I said, I've been burned before.

No problem. I am not here to hide anything,

I post mainly on the model and custom threads. That's what originally drew me to this forum really. I like Macross, but I don't spend a lot of time on it. Models and customs are something that interest me a great deal. I respect the work that the guys do in those threads.

[Gubaba]

I met Macross from the Robotech.

So, she have my respect.

I met my first girlfriend at a terrible college...

...what's your point?

[Jasonc]

Addressing similarities between the two scripts, and there being almost exact dialogue in some places, are too close to make an argument that they didn't use the original script as reference. While I think Greg Snegoff is a good guy, it doesn't seem like he's totally forthcoming about that story. When he says that the scripts were horrible, I think he was talking about direct translation, and probably from a non-reputable source. It's completely ignorant, to assume that Carl, Greg, and the other writers wrote the entire thing with no reference material. It just didn't happen. There's too many direct similarities that one wouldn't necessarily come to figure out just by visually watching the Japanese version. If you think all those are just coincidences, then there's no point in arguing with delusional fans.

What strikes the whole thing odd, is that it's even an issue. They did use the Japanese script, who cares? Carl and Greg seem to inflate the story quite a bit there, but it's not making them any more credible, or talented as writers. And just because someone says that it's how the story goes, if you're going to believe that, over common sense, then there's really no point in arguing with someone who lives in fantasy land.

[Gubaba]

Yes I have. This goes back to what I orginally in my first post. About the use of a script to edit Robotech. I stated that it could be verified and it can be. I stated the recent Greg Snegoff interview touched on that.

So what we've got is a "he said/she said" type argument, yes?

Noboru Ishiguro said the Macross staff didn't approve of the Robotech dub. Greg Snegoff says they went without a script and that the Japanese staff liked it.

Which part of this is "verifiable"?

I don't live far from the Big West office. If I go to them and ask what they think of Robotech, is that "verifiable" evidence to you?

[VF5SS]

The "Dana has a brother" thing is the most telling because there's nothing in the original Southern Cross scene to suggest she was talking about relatives just based on the visuals.

[Gubaba]

The "Dana has a brother" thing is the most telling because there's nothing in the original Southern Cross scene to suggest she was talking about relatives just based on the visuals.

But, but...you don't UNDERSTAND! They looked at the scripts AFTER they wrote the scripts! And revised them to fit the originals!

Bah, screw this. If RT fans are THAT delusional, there's no saving 'em.

At any rate, this is the last time I ever defend one of 'em. I'm sorry I did it in the first place.

[Mark Warlock]

Well.. As far as verifiable.. Yes. It is verifiable. None of us were there. So none of us know exactly how things went down.

I base what I know on known facts and verifiable things. Simply because some people don't believe it or can't, doesn't make it a lie or irrelevant.

Gubaba,

No that would be opinion. Greg's opinion on the original dialog "not being up to their standards" isn't evidence to me. Because that is based on opinion. Now if he could go back and show maybe ratings between the two side by side.. That would be evidence.

Look.. I said what I had come to say.. And I'm gonna leave it at that. I respect this forum and its members, for the most part.

I'm done on this matter for the fact that I do not want to put any further heat on a friend.

If someone would like to continue discussing this in a civil manner then please PM me and I will be more then happy to debate with you.

Thank you guys for taking the time to respond to my posts. I had fun and I have no hard feelings toward any of you.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Mark Warlock

[Gubaba]

Edited February 23, 2012 by Gubaba

[Einherjar]

These days, I'd question the integrity of people like Greg Snegoff and Carl Macek as well as your trust in their words because, at the end of the day, like it or not, Robotech was deeply rooted in three different TV shows staffed by completely different people prior to 1985. It's something that really can't be avoided anyone. They, along with other people involved in the franchise, only have careers and the reputations they have now because of those people who continue to be marginalized as stuff like the Greg Snegoff interview might be interpreted.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Einherjar

[Old_Nash]

I met my first girlfriend at a terrible college...

...what's your point?

In the affirmation that not all fans of Robotech hates Macross, and not all fans of Macross hates Robotech.

Both are essential.

[Darkwater]

Keep in mind that Greg Snegoff also didn't specify if he was talking about Macross, Moresopedia, or Southern Cross, when it came to translations. Like I said, I wouldn't doubt if a lot of the translations were crap. I think Sandy Frank said the same thing when he did Battle of the Planets, he just made up a lot of crap (and added R2D2)

I've heard that horrible English translations can kind of be the norm in Japan. When I went last year, a lot of English text looked like it was dumped into Google translate and spit out.

[Renato]

I don't know about that.... Hence, our rules:

What I said was that the disappointment with RT and HG should be a major push factor in getting involved in the active Macross fan community. That in itself does not go against the "don't just come here to talk about RT" rule. I would very much like to see Juan and every one else enjoy immersing themselves in the Macross fandom, having jumped ship from the sinking wreck of Captain Yune's USS VeryTech. There's no down side to that (except an unwanted "wallet diet" effect.. ).

Gubaba, will you release the Japanese version too? I study Japanese and it would help.

Tokuma Shoten took care of that decades ago.

That's the Robotech name of council Ivano Gunther, in a Robotechnation of Macross7

Wait wait wait wait..... WHAT?

[Renato]

Again, what I said is verifiable. Carl did not use a script when he edited the episodes. in his interview, Greg Snegoff, talks about Carl sat there with (I believe he said) three machines and edited clips together. Then once the editing was done the scripts came after. Snegoff said that they had to watch each episode over and over when working on it.

Nothing coincidedntal about it. There's no way to get around using some Macross lines. The animation pretty much dictates what can be said in most cases. I never said they didn't use Macross lines, in fact I've stated on other fourms what I said above, that the animation dictated much of what was written. Though I can't for the life of me recall Rick Hunter asking Minmay "What's more important, your hair or your life?". Where was that said in Robotech?

I just checked the episode on Youtube, and you're right, it's not on there. It seems it was one of the scenes that was cut from the original, so I guess Gubaba must have made a mistake. It is supposed to happen after the big mid-air catch action scene with the VF-1D in the second episode.

But his point still stands, I can give you the example of episode 5 "Transformation" which we spoke about in the MW podcast, when Minmei says to Rick "Well, you said you wanted to destroy the city, how'd you like it?" and what Rick should have replied, instead of "but I never expected anything to happen," was "What the hell are you talking about, I never said that. You are confusing me with Hikaru Ichijo!" Because Minmei's line is a reference to an earlier scene in the episode which WAS replaced with different dialogue.

So obviously they were translating from the original Japanese scripts then changing some things around as they saw fit -- but perhaps didn't have time to check if the changes were consistent with the rest of the dialogue.

[VF5SS]

So are the Robotech guys going to take Galvion or what

[Renato]

But I'm a fan of Robotech even if it sucks.

I... Wow. I got nothin'.

[JuanRT]

Weren't you the one who asked me "Why the fuck are you here?" on RTX?

Can I ask you the same question now...?

sure .. to express how I feel about the things what are going on with RT and looking for an other point of view........ I'm no here to troll

so I ask again,.. so you are a troller in rtx.com?

[VF5SS]

so I ask again,.. so you are a troller in rtx.com?

Gubaba-senpai only tells the truth over there