Question on VF-1 v2 1/60 Neck/Collar Issue

[alchemo]

To me it's all about compromise, you can't have both.

IMO Yamato did a great job by introducing the ingenious method by pushing up the fuselage, this gives a better overall proportion in battroid mode by shortening the fuselage.

The 1/48 and Bandai 1/100 or I must say all transforming toys and model kits of VF-1 in the past have the common problem, elongated or saggy crotch setction.

Agree 100%

And back to the neck/collar issue, it is not an issue for me and I think it is quite balance between the 3 modes. the only concern I have is that the fuselage should not be shorter than the 1/60 V.2, for sake of the fighter mode.

[Shaorin]

I'm not saying that the 1/60 V2 doesn't come close... i'm just saying the line art looks a bit tougher.

AAUUGGHH!! NEVER MIND THE ALMIGHTY DAMNED LINE ART!!

MAN, can't you line-art fetishists ever see the point i'm trying to make?

the line art is virtually never, ever of ANY USE AT ALL for anything beyond a conceptual starting point

when attempting to design a modern, PT toy/replica/model of a variable-form Mecha.

original line-art SELDOM, if EVER takes into solid account EXACTLY what a variable-form Mecha must look like

in order to actually pull of the transformations it is supposed to be capable of.

and the early-1980's VF-1 art there is CLEARLY NOT THE SLIGHTEST BIT IMMUNE TO THAT RULE.

if YAMATO was to make a new VF-1 that actually looked like that line art,

then i could guarantee you that the results would have FAR more in common

with the old ARII 1/100 BATTROID in overall appearance than anything else.

now, tell me, what kind of FIGHTER or GERWALK do you think a BATTROID like that could make?

[kanedaestes]

HONESTLY.... It have never bothered me. I love the overall proportions on the v.2 and think Yamato continues doing a great job. As far as the Hi-Metal porportions while they look fine in Battroid, the fighter doesn't look all that good to me. So far this is the best version and the closest to the anime I have seen that is still a perferct transforming toy.

[Vi-RS]

well, maybe what you actually see from the "lineart" is not the neck, but the collar appeared from the end tip of fuselage just like what Yamato did.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Vi-RS

[Reïvaj]

well, maybe what you actually see from the "lineart" is not the neck, but the collar appeared from the end tip of fuselage just like what Yamato did.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The only thing "short nosecone" fans could do is just to make it so that piece is swappable with a short nosecone for battroid mode (like the swappable hands) and a long nosecone for fighter mode. Nobody seems to mind that you have to swap hands for more artwork-loyal display in battroid mode so I see this as the only way of solving the crotch problem.

Besides the nosecone is a great weapon to use on a zentradi soldier if you have no weapons to fight one with. You knock him to the ground to topple him over, then you use the nose/crotch of the vf-1 to stab the lying soldier to death by teabagging him when he is vulnerable on the ground unconscious from the fall. Jump in the air as high as you can using the boosters in your backpack and feet to gain height, then fall on top of him with your crotch. Instant death. Shorter nosecone only lessen the effectiveness of that move. In the old days they didn't have the gunpod bayonet or the knife from macross frontier. They had to think outside the box. (shortages of ammo during space war I called for more conservative usage of limited resources) Yes I'm only kidding around but I think it would be fun to see that in a fight lol.

Edited October 5, 2011 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

well, maybe what you actually see from the "lineart" is not the neck, but the collar appeared from the end tip of fuselage just like what Yamato did.

They should reboot SDFM with a new cg animated tv series imo. There is so much badly drawn valks in it that kids of today won't watch this show just because it looks old. Let that be the 30th anniversary project. It would make future vf-1 toys easier to make so fans don't whine about how it's not canon enough to lineart. haha

This way toy companies have the cg plane as the guide and no more arguing about which is the real shape and which is the imaginary fan-fiction ideal of what the valk should look like. The tv series hasn't aged well. After seeing macross zero I always wondered what it would be like if they did that.

Edited October 5, 2011 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Mommar]

They should reboot SDFM with a new cg animated tv series imo. There is so much badly drawn valks in it that kids of today won't watch this show just because it looks old. Let that be the 30th anniversary project. It would make future vf-1 toys easier to make so fans don't whine about how it's not canon enough to lineart. haha

This way toy companies have the cg plane as the guide and no more arguing about which is the real shape and which is the imaginary fan-fiction ideal of what the valk should look like. The tv series hasn't aged well. After seeing macross zero I always wondered what it would be like if they did that.

They've already got a big chunk of it done with that Pachinko machine...

[EXO]

I feel like the collar is there because they built the v.2 with the second seat in mind and then just filled in the cockpit for the one seaters.

Now I gotta comb thru the thread to see if anyone else posted that since I'm just jumping into the conversation now.

[Raptor One]

Speaking of which, I haven't seen anyone complaining about how far forward the pilot is in a while. I remember when these first came out...

[jenius]

This thread is very silly to me. "hey, what's the difference to the line art people are talking about?" "Here it is." "OMG, you are so stupid, how dare you compare a toy to the line art!" Got it.

[mr.chogokin]

Bored of line art comparison? We can still look at the animation... there is no collar in the animation.

[Kyp Durron]

Actually, I was looking at my Roy 1S and if they address anything, I'd like to see them put screw hole covers in the insides of the legs. They did it for the VF-0's, why not the V2 VF-1's?

-Kyp

[MacrossJunkie]

Actually, I was looking at my Roy 1S and if they address anything, I'd like to see them put screw hole covers in the insides of the legs. They did it for the VF-0's, why not the V2 VF-1's?

-Kyp

Some screw covers would be nice. I imagine they'd cost practically nothing to include with the toy. One nice thing among many that I liked about the 1/3000 SDF-1 is that it included screw covers for virtually every visible screw hole which, to me, adds a lot to its appearance.

[VF5SS]

I think the issue with the pilots being farther forward was more due to the way the whole cockpit section connected via that flat metal tab into the slot. It cuts right into where the seat could occupy.

[demolition skunk]

I wish people would stop using that funky battroid line art as a gauge of how accurate a VF-1 sculpt is. At no point in the anime is a battroid ever drawn like that. Animators are really good at maintaining consistent proportions while animating character or mecha designs. They drew the VF-1 in battroid mode (in most episodes) much closer to how it would actually look, and it's no coincidence that this is what the 1/48s and 1/60s look like as well. In other words, once the animators got familiar with the design, they drew it more accurately than Kawamori himself did.

The 1/60 v2 does an excellent, almost uncanny, job of capturing how the VF-1 is depicted in the anime. That's much more important (and more attainable) than the line art.

In attached pic, note the slender, long nosecone, the smallish, unexaggerated hands, and the realistic length of the wings. The VF-1 is drawn this way throughout this outstanding episode and in several others, and it is far better than the line art versions.

1/60 comparison:

Bottom line: line art is HUGELY over-rated. And this is coming from an animator, btw

Edited October 15, 2011 by demolition skunk

[jenius]

It's hard to reply and not sound like I'm flaming you because you're an animator but you should be aware that the animation in Macross is quite frequently quite poor, that various scenes portray the VF-1 in battroid mode looking quite differently, and the line art is official. The idea that the animators get it more right than designer is an interesting way to think outside of the box but in this case the animators were extremely inconsistent. As noted previously though, that BW sanctioned line art is not Kawamori's own although his own line art does show a recessed head and no high neck collar.

[Raptor One]

I agree about the lineart versus animation actually. Especially in Macross 7, the VF-19S looks way better than the lineart most of the time. Of course as jenius says, sometimes it looks horrible.

[eugimon]

and yet if you look in Macross Design Works you'll see plainly how the line art for the vf-1 changes, pretty radically. Just compare the SDF:M drawings to the ones done for DYRL. And even in drawings from the same series, sometimes the head is comically huge, sometimes they look like they're wearing boxing gloves.

So you want to say product X is or isn't like the line art? Fine, which one? Because there are several and they all take liberties with the proportions.

and for fun, compare the proportions on the SDF:M or DYRL line art with the proportions shown in the VF-1 Master File. They don't agree at all either. Nor do those proportions match up with either the 1/48, v2 1/60 or the hi-metal. They all deviate from each other.

Edited October 15, 2011 by eugimon

[mr.chogokin]

I see Jenius' point about the V.2 collar eyesore but not necessarily deferring to just the lineart. Looking at the various battroid artworks of the many Macross artbooks, and then looking at the various animation - SDFM, DYRL, FEVER... they all consistently say, "no collar". Maybe it doesn't bother alot of people, but to some who have spent more time than others looking at these VF materials and the toys, anything out of the ordinary, however slight is going to stick out like a sore thumb. And I've got to admit, the collar thing is new... it's never been seen in the other older VF-1 toys.

Maybe Yamato paid every attention to detail but left the collar thing unfixed because it seemed negligible. Who know? Just don't tuck the chestplate all the way down.

On the other hand, if you look at Kawamori's lineart of the VF0 and then compare it to Yamato's rendition, I'd say overall Yamato's rendition is better and more heroic-looking and closer to the animation and Kawamori's drawing is more... skinny. To me, either the animators or Yamato improved the VF0 for Kawamori. In the end, what we got is the VF0 that is consistent in the 1/60 toy form and animation.

All I'm saying is, it's not about deferring to any single source material, but deferring to what is consistent from different sources and that "eye" will tell you if it looks right or not.

[Reïvaj]

and yet if you look in Macross Design Works you'll see plainly how the line art for the vf-1 changes, pretty radically. Just compare the SDF:M drawings to the ones done for DYRL. And even in drawings from the same series, sometimes the head is comically huge, sometimes they look like they're wearing boxing gloves.

So you want to say product X is or isn't like the line art? Fine, which one? Because there are several and they all take liberties with the proportions.

and for fun, compare the proportions on the SDF:M or DYRL line art with the proportions shown in the VF-1 Master File. They don't agree at all either. Nor do those proportions match up with either the 1/48, v2 1/60 or the hi-metal. They all deviate from each other.

I agree. Actually, the only toy lines that shouldn’t have any issues about proportions are those of Macross Zero and Frontier due to the fact that their art lines or animated renditions are based on CGI. And I say they shouldn’t because even having at least half of the job already done the guys who designed the DX VF-25 v.1 line have proved CG line art can be not enough…

Edited October 15, 2011 by Reïvaj

[eugimon]

Actually, the collar IS there in the VF Master File VF-1 Valkyrie line art on page 23.

[jenius]

Post it, I'd like to see it. My line art resources are very limited.

Another one lifted from Macross Mecha Manual, I believe this is a Kawamori drawn line art (but could be wrong). I tried to use this for my comparisons before but there's some elbow gun magic going on in that drawing.

Edited October 15, 2011 by jenius

[VF5SS]

no no do it like this

[demolition skunk]

It's hard to reply and not sound like I'm flaming you because you're an animator but you should be aware that the animation in Macross is quite frequently quite poor, that various scenes portray the VF-1 in battroid mode looking quite differently, and the line art is official. The idea that the animators get it more right than designer is an interesting way to think outside of the box but in this case the animators were extremely inconsistent. As noted previously though, that BW sanctioned line art is not Kawamori's own although his own line art does show a recessed head and no high neck collar.

No worries. I didn't take it as a flame I didn't mean to disparage the line art. I happen to like it a lot, except for that one front view of the battriod which I've never seen in any of the art books, btw. It seems that when the animators had to animate the fighter to battriod transition frame-by-frame, they realized how the battroid should look based on the fighter's proportions. Keep in mind, I'm thinking of the best animated episodes (the Max vs Miria dogfight in the series is a prime example). It's interesting how the battroids in those episodes really look a lot closer to what the 1/48 and 1/60 v2 turned out to be.

As far as the collar goes...I don't see it in the line art or the animation (there are a few instances when Hikaru's 1S head sits higher in order for it to look down in a low angle shot). The collar never bothered me, and I hardly noticed it until a friend pointed it out. It's just one of those compromises that has to be made.

However, in the side-by-side comparo between the 1/48 1S and the 1/60 1S, I suddenly noticed that the 1/48 neck looks more substantial and more like the anime. The 1/60 1S neck looks a bit scrawny. Anyone else see this?

[demolition skunk]

Agree 100%

And back to the neck/collar issue, it is not an issue for me and I think it is quite balance between the 3 modes. the only concern I have is that the fuselage should not be shorter than the 1/60 V.2, for sake of the fighter mode.

I totally agree. The nosecone in the 1/60 v2 battroid mode is plenty short!

The nosecone and the wings in the battroid line art are impossibly short and should not be aspired to. Also, its limbs are too thick, hands too big, etc. It's meant to capture gesture, anyway. IMHO, the 1/60 v2 is the best looking battroid ever. That includes all the super poseable figures, model kits, everything! Nothing else looks as right and as realistic.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I would mostly agree there except for the head sculpt for yamato 1/48 vf-1s, which I think is superior to the yamato 1/60v2 vf-1s.

Edited October 16, 2011 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[anime52k8]

I would mostly agree there except for the head sculpt for yamato 1/48 vf-1s, which I think is superior to the yamato 1/60v2 vf-1s.

wat?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Battroid mode overall of the 1/60v2 vf-1 is the best out there. It was designed to look "balanced in all modes".and fans of the battroid mode love it..

Whereas the 1/48 vf-1 looked to be aiming for a good fighter mode. Mostly the bot mode doesn't look as well proportioned compared to the 1/60v2. (eg the tiny hands, wide chest, GBP armor that looks oversized etc)

However the head sculpt of the 1/48 is still better than the head sculpt of the 1/60v2. Chin look too pointy on 1/60 imo Mouthplate curves too much. (1/48 has it go flatter on the front side)

Gunpod of the 1/48 seems better too.

Edited October 16, 2011 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[eugimon]

Post it, I'd like to see it. My line art resources are very limited.

Another one lifted from Macross Mecha Manual, I believe this is a Kawamori drawn line art (but could be wrong). I tried to use this for my comparisons before but there's some elbow gun magic going on in that drawing.

not the best scan but you can clearly see that there's a collar. There's another image in the book showing the transformation sequence and that render has a collar as well. There's myriad other battroid renders without the the collar as well though.

Edited October 16, 2011 by eugimon

[jenius]

I think the only problem with your argument is that there's no collar shown in that line art... I mean, yeah, it shows there's a surface the neck is attached to but there would need to be that surface since the neck swings during transformation. In that line art the chest plate is just below the VF-1A's eye level. Where is it on a Yamato 1/60 V2 toy?

[eugimon]

I think the only problem with your argument is that there's no collar shown in that line art... I mean, yeah, it shows there's a surface the neck is attached to but there would need to be that surface since the neck swings during transformation. In that line art the chest plate is just below the VF-1A's eye level. Where is it on a Yamato 1/60 V2 toy?

I don't know how you can say there isn't a collar there. There's the neck, there's a thing that the neck sits on top of that's not the rest of the body. If you want to say that is a "collar" only when the v2 does it and a "surface" when it's in the line art... okay...

The eye on the v.2 is a little bit above the top of the chest plate but collar or no collar, the head position of the v2 and the hi-metal are the same. Both the hi-metal and v2 get the head position wrong.

[Raptor One]

I wouldn't call that a collar either. It's just the bottom of the neck. Even the 1/48 has that. Not gonna get into the rest of the argument though.

Edited October 17, 2011 by Raptor One

[mr.chogokin]

Yeah it's just the bottom of the neck. On the toys, since the neck is bolted in a hinge, it's just a bevel of the hinge. If the toy is not transforming, that bevel is not even there.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah but the collar could be hidden just like when you don't push the chest plate all the way down