Basara Nekki

[Keith]

Nobody seems to ever have issues with Sharon Apple instantly mind-controlling people (exactly like the protodeviln) and magic super hacking everything constantly cuz this is the 90's :v

I fact the whole "Sharon needs Myung's emotions" is presented so vaguely like it's like a pseudo spiritia sound booster thing

And in fact, much of what happens in Plus is parallel with what happens in 7. Sharon has a super processor that can monitor the brain activity of a whole audience, and adjust her hypnotic stimuli accordingly. Her interface with Myung is assumedly also based off of the Q-Rau's pilot interface (just as the YF-21 was), the difference being she has an A.I. that can itnerfere right back with the audience. Spiritia, BDI, etc, all different terms to get at the same general point. Technology & biology are based on the same things, and Basara uses the song energy booster as a wifi-hub to broadcast his feelings to others. People need to get over it!

This very topic has been considered "hard sci-fi" forever. 2001 Had the monolith that instantaniously transported David Bowman who the F%ck know's where, & downloaded his conciousness into a new energy based being.

Forbidden Planet had a similar device that translated thoughts into energy based entities.

Star Trek has had more uber gods than I can remember, some Greek god based, Q being the worst. Hell, even the robo-zombies connected their brains wirelessly to each other, with the queen traversing huge expansense of space to be put into new bodies (wait a minute, did Moore create the borg too?).

Hell, have you watched Votoms? You don't get much more gritty & hardcore than that in anime, and even that has super-science/suedo magic in it. Starship Troopers? Hive minded bugs that use bio-technology? Hello? Just about every sci-fi writter eventually comes to the same conclusion, the most advanced forms of technology would have to be based in biology, if for no other reason than being able to self maintain and not having to worry about wearing out/replacing parts.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Keith

[treatment]

Nobody seems to ever have issues with Sharon Apple instantly mind-controlling people (exactly like the protodeviln) and magic super hacking everything constantly cuz this is the 90's :v

I fact the whole "Sharon needs Myung's emotions" is presented so vaguely like it's like a pseudo spiritia sound booster thing

err,

M-Plus showed the techs tweaking the effects of Sharon on the brain during pre-concert, and the constant monitoring of it during the concert. Even detected Yang's hack on it.

Sharon just overloaded those limiters when she went rogue.

Not to mention the subplot of Plus was the BDI of the yf-21.

So, it was not quite as far-fetched as compared to the bizarro magic of M7's spiritia.

Edited January 29, 2012 by treatment

[Keith]

err,

M-Plus showed the techs tweaking the effects of Sharon on the brain during pre-concert, and the constant monitoring of it during the concert. Even detected Yang's hack on it.

Sharon just overloaded those limiters when she went rogue.

Not to mention the subplot of Plus was the BDI of the yf-21.

So, it was not quite as far-fetched as compared to the bizarro magic of M7's spiritia.

Ok Lucy, 'splain how the BDI/BCS connects with the brain to allow you to control a machine with your mind as if it were a natural appendage? Also 'splain how monitoring the levels of chemicals in the brain translates into altering peoples moods through visual stimuli, and eventually hypnotizing them into doing your bidding. And for that matter, again Myung being able to control Sharon through a man/machine interface. If you can explain that while at the same time being able to dismiss the ability of using machines to transmit/amplify brainwaves, then and only then can you claim M7 is magic.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Keith

[VF5SS]

They show Dr. Chiba tinkering with the sound boosters and carefully explaining how they work. Practically every aspect of Sound Force is presented no different than standard giant robot maintenance. In fact, Macross 7 does a lot to show to the audience through the early episodes just what spiritia is and how it works. As a whole, 7 has just as much if not more of the "this is science" motif that every sci-fi show has done ever since the genre rose to prominence. And that's not even accounting for how a lot of Japanese sci-fi series like Ultraman or Gundam go about their own pseudo-sciences. For Macross 7 it's not until around episode 27 that we even get to the whole power of the sound booster.

A lot of the things Sharon can do are just flavors of the time. In the 90's, there was still a good wave of cyberpunk so we didn't think too hard about the whole world being literally set up so Sharon can hack everything.

It's kind of funny nowadays since it's like ok, Sharon can infiltrate anything from the fire suppression system (why is this hooked up to a computer?) in the concert hall (and cause electrical equipment to fry itself lol fuses suck in the future) and take over military computers and whatever systems were controlling the vast broadcasting network of Macross city. Why can she does this? Because AI. She's basically an autonomous Vocaloid but hey she can do these things because that's how they wanted the plot to unfold. Which I find funny because she already has mind-control powers so why do they need to show her taking over things through technological means? Sharon can make soldiers open fire on a civilian and she made Yang shoot at Isamu's head by merely making him listen to her song.

Again even though the whole setup is presented just like the Sound Boosters and the Varuta Spiritia harvesting, there's a lot of unspoken [TECH] that somehow links Myung to Sharon (SHINE A LASER ON HER FOREHEAD!) which somehow imbues Sharon's songs with a piece of Myung's "soul" to give them a tangible effect over the audience. Sure Myung doesn't fire a SOUND BEAM out of her mouth but a lot of things are taken on good faith by the audience regardless of how they tried to use tech-y smokescreens to obfuscate more existential and personal aspects of the story. That's just good sci-fi.

I can forgive the western fanbase for not going gaga over 7's initial portrayal of the standard hokey science as most of us didn't have a decade of readily available home video releases to obsess over and explain away the inconsistencies like we did with Plus. There wasn't as much available context to the western audience as to how Plus and 7 were part of the overall anime landscape in 1994-1995 so when presented with just 7 without this context, it can seem like an anomaly. Again, a lot of aspects to 7 and Plus are par for the course for mid 90's anime. It's just that both have their own more timeless aspects that keep people enjoying them years down the line.

Isamu's t-shirt and baggy shorts sure ain't one of the timeless aspects though :v

Edited January 29, 2012 by VF5SS

[treatment]

http://science.disco...r-the-soul.html

I think that's the episode where they showed experiments about brain stuff.

Pretty excellent show. Get the dvd. Really worth it.

also, I don't seem to remember any human/zentraedi "glowing" in Plus like they seem to do quite a bit in M7.

Edited January 29, 2012 by treatment

[VF5SS]

People only glow in 7 when they are wearing some kind of equipment that is related to Spiritia or Sound Energy technology or if they are a Protodevilin.

People do get bathed in an eerie glow of light whenever something ominous happens with Sharon's mind control :3

I guess she likes mood lighting everyone. Helps with the ambiance ya know.

Ok so that video you linked is like the worst trailer for their ideas. Which is essentially, scientists trying to explain aspects of the human consciousness with some of them reconciling it with the spiritual idea of the "soul."

Which is what both Plus and 7 do.

I like the guy with the bow tie saying there's a wonderful existence waiting for our souls when we die. Some call that heaven. Other may call it Woodstock.

Edited January 29, 2012 by VF5SS

[Renato]

The EVIL series are biological representations of the mechanical technology that the Protoculture already engineered. We now know that said technology was based on a naturally occuring biological manifestation, i.e. the Vajra. Fold technology, barrier shields, and reaction cannons were all biologically recreated in the EVIL series, and later on a mass-producton scale with whatever the AFOS was. This isn't a concept exclusive to Macross, other sci-fi & anime has touched on bio-mecha for years, both before and after. Take a look at Farscape, a fairly popular sci-fi series, and one which was based highly in bio-technology. The Vorlons & Shadows in Babylon 5 being the higher species of that universe also used bio-technology. Even the recent BSG adopted the concept that bio beats mechanical in the technological hierarchy. - quote from BOMBA!

Take Aura Battler Dunbine had the same concept energy human spirit equals power. Or better yet Escaflowne , I feel it was passed over in Macross 7 it is not a bad series just more mystical than I'd like. Take it this way you go to watch a star trek film and all this hard science stuff happens then boom how you feel suddenly becomes a factor but it manifests itself as a being object power. The point is the transition and quite frankly Basara doesn't really help the concept would be more legitimate if he main character had well"character" he is vague we get what he is saying but really a little more communication and less justdoing whatever would be better. It is not a bad series I like it it just isn't character driven enough. I mean ask what does he do what are his dreams is there something he can accomplish or he is afraid of. I thought we got that when he lost his voice maybe see what he would do if he lost the only thing that gave him his identity. It just did go that way. I like most of the character in Macross Hikaru, Shin, Alto, but Basara is an attempt to take a very complex issue and use personify it but for get to give him a real voice. I really just feel he needs to use more than "listen to my Song" try listen to others and communicate his song.

OK, well you could always just go back and read "Macross 7 Trash", since the story is just about using and amplifying "human energy" or "spiritia" to create super-soldiers or something. Oh, and Basara is not in it.

[treatment]

Reckon Discovery-Science site doesn't show the full episode.

Try to DVR it or netflix the dvd to see the brain experiments on that episode.

or try this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h80s7q5rwJs

it should be in the 32-min mark that shows the brain-experiment.

[treatment]

additionally, we currently have the Global Conciousness Project.

Which, when the project itself has matured and stuff in the futre, can be possibly hacked by a super rogue AI like Sharon Apple to control alot of humans.

[JB0]

Her interface with Myung is assumedly also based off of the Q-Rau's pilot interface (just as the YF-21 was)...

Largely irrelevant nitpick: Q-Rau didn't use any sort of mental interface. It's waldos and pressure sensors all the way down.

Just about every sci-fi writter eventually comes to the same conclusion, the most advanced forms of technology would have to be based in biology, if for no other reason than being able to self maintain and not having to worry about wearing out/replacing parts.

And this is outright absurdity.

Sure, you can cherry-pick your examples to make a case. I can cherry-pick examples to prove "everyone" comes to the conclusion that advanced mechanical technology ultimately replaces biological components and we all become robots. It's an extreme which is only slightly less silly.

BTW, I recommend you not tell anyone with arthritis that the miracle of biotechnology means their parts naturally self-maintain ensuring they never wear out.

Parts wear out, regardless of how they're made. Biotech as a magic cure-all pill makes as much sense as nanotech as a magic cure-all pill. Which is to say, it doesn't.

Edited January 29, 2012 by JB0

[treatment]

I think the big elephant in the room is that:

in M-Plus, the humans were victimized by their creation of Rogue AI super-computer in the form of Sharon Apple.

in M7, the villains are interdimensional aliens.

I just think that a rogue super-AI like Sharon taking over and wreaking havoc on the super-internet of the future is alot easier to believe in and a bit more acceptable to actually happen first than any kind of magical aliens stuff.

ya know, like Ghost In The Shell stuff.

Edited January 29, 2012 by treatment

[VF5SS]

You mean in the franchise that has space giants that can be shrunk down to be your waifu.

Prepare for trouble and make it a double standard.

[Devil 505]

You mean in the franchise that has space giants that can be shrunk down to be your waifu.

Or, in the case of Frontier, your loli waifu.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Devil 505

[treatment]

You mean in the franchise that has space giants that can be shrunk down to be your waifu.

Prepare for trouble and make it a double standard.

What can I say?

That's a specific part of the 80's stuff that we all love and was never in dispute amongst us.

Even Sharon was not in dispute. Standard rogue AI takeover. Acceptable western sci-fi stuff since at least Space Odyssey movie.

In contrast, M7 and magical aliens are simply just hokey japanese sci-fi ala Ultraman.

To somehow tie in Sharon into that same hokeyness is just way bit silly.

[leading edge]

Except Macross 7 is way out there and by hard science I mean something believeable. I mean aliens coming to earth yes Aliens coming to suck spiritia possible but when you start to say our only hope is a rock star that barely speaks and pilots a Giant robot with a face to promote universal love even you have to admit the degrees of believeability start to weigh thin. Look at the first episode he already has his valkyrie and everything then he becomes their only hope ( I don't hate him just feel it is way too out there). Also manipulating people during a concert is unlikely but possible and the build up was believeable enough. It is the steps that gets us there that is hard to swallow. For example alternate universe not Macross Basara would be alright but we have a frame of reference from the first series although it is original and completely different we get the name " Macross" thrown in and there are certain expectations. If the show was called Firebomer then boom no problem that is the nature of the show we as no questions. Dragon ball Z fist time watching it no way you could tell why something happens or why without a frame of reference but if the entertainment is good enough then our sense of disbelief is also lifted. In short we must forget logic and predetermined notions and become caught in the story except the lead is the problem he is as I said vague( at least in terms of what he wants and motivation that is behind the actions he takes). People like it because of the music or the type of action we see but everyone has to face this sooner or later he is not a character he is a aspiration a voice for the creator as a pure voice to his views on war violence and love. Storywise we need to relate like maybe someone died or maybe the UN Spacy covered up an event that could have been resolved with understanding rather than violence. Stuff like that builds an interest we say "yeah I get that" instead we just get him flyng around singing. We just need a better frame of reference Basara wants peace but without a why or relative reason it seems arbitrary no offense.

[Keith]

That's not lack of believability, thats personal dislike with just as personal a skew being placed on the events. There is nothing more "unbelievable" in Macross 7 than there is in any other Macross series, let alone most anime series, let alone most sci-fi.

[Keith]

What can I say?

That's a specific part of the 80's stuff that we all love and was never in dispute amongst us.

Even Sharon was not in dispute. Standard rogue AI takeover. Acceptable western sci-fi stuff since at least Space Odyssey movie.

In contrast, M7 and magical aliens are simply just hokey japanese sci-fi ala Ultraman.

To somehow tie in Sharon into that same hokeyness is just way bit silly.

As opposed to magica aliens with acid blood that can have sex with your face and make babies in zero atmosphere? Claiming computer A.I.'s are "hard scifi" when no one has ever been able to make anything close sounds equally magical.

[VF5SS]

That's a specific part of the 80's stuff that we all love and was never in dispute amongst us.

Why not? It's silly and they never take the idea any farther than giving Zentradi and human beings a way to interact without the giantess fetish :3

Actually, Dynamite 7 explores the concept of a non-Zentradi becoming a giant much further than SDF or DYRL ever did.

Even Sharon was not in dispute. Standard rogue AI takeover. Acceptable western sci-fi stuff since at least Space Odyssey movie.

Right but "acceptable western sci-fi" people who copied Arthur C Clarke's idea forgot the important bit that HAL is built into the ship he controls. Sharon is a box with tentacle raping stereo cables. Anything she does is no more or less logical than what the Protodevlin do. The Protodevilin are intentionally written to be rather strange and well, alien. They have powers beyond human ability but everything they do is presented in a fairly logical manner. It's like if you ever watch Red Dwarf or Star Trek, even the episodes with the most improbable happenings can be the best so long as the characters respond to the bizarre using reason and logic.

A lot of the big moments involving the Sound Boosters were done with careful planning by Dr. Chiba. When they attempted to capture Gravil, the problem ended up being one of geometry based on how much Sound Energy Mylene could generate.

Granted Basara is anything but logical, which is why everyone else around him is there to compensate. Which is exactly like Isamu "Mr. Ego" Dyson.

In contrast, M7 and magical aliens are simply just hokey japanese sci-fi ala Ultraman.

To somehow tie in Sharon into that same hokeyness is just way bit silly.

I don't care if you don't like Macross 7's ideas but don't try to pass off Plus's take on similar themes as being less hokey. Computers aren't nearly as magical as there were in the early 90's. Even Frontier didn't make the cyborgs like they were out to hack the planet.

C'mon now, Sharon Apple is a literal doppelganger for Myung.

[leading edge]

Once again it is motivation which I feel makes Basara a little unbelieveable. Also as a static character he is designed to influence others toward a particular view peace understanding through music. For the audience this can be a problem it for me is not a issue of like or dislike but rather believability. Motivation to be or do something must come from a strong and clear experience to be attracted to or against person event, action. I only say this because well if you think about it he is a pure idea that is why people are attracted to Basara. John Lennon used music much the same way hardship suffering and childhood shaped him into the individual he was. There were experiences and he shared them through song and opened percetion to a new way of viewing the world which at that time( I won't go into the details ). That is what I want a person less idealism it makes them human. This is of course my own opinion we can always agree to disagree.

[treatment]

Why not? It's silly and they never take the idea any farther than giving Zentradi and human beings a way to interact without the giantess fetish :3

It was silly, but we're all not in dispute of that.

Right but "acceptable western sci-fi" people who copied Arthur C Clarke's idea forgot the important bit that HAL is built into the ship he controls. Sharon is a box with tentacle raping stereo cables. Anything she does is no more or less logical than what the Protodevlin do. The Protodevilin are intentionally written to be rather strange and well, alien. They have powers beyond human ability but everything they do is presented in a fairly logical manner. It's like if you ever watch Red Dwarf or Star Trek, even the episodes with the most improbable happenings can be the best so long as the characters respond to the bizarre using reason and logic.

That's the disconnect here.

Sharon is a computer AI that the humans built, therefore it's got human logic (or illogic) by design.

Protodevlin are, well, aliens built by aliens. You can't really equate the two since we haven't gotten any alien-contact, yet.

I don't care if you don't like Macross 7's ideas but don't try to pass off Plus's take on similar themes as being less hokey. Computers aren't nearly as magical as there were in the early 90's.

Considering actual AI work was started back in the early 20th century and lots of impressive military/medical developments since (internet, deep blue, asimo, siri, etc, etc) it is quite easier to consider a far future development like Sharon.

It really just makes Plus alot less hokey than M7's Ultraman-ish stuff.

Even Frontier didn't make the cyborgs like they were out to hack the planet.

Well, you might wanna take that argument with someone else who actually likes Frontier than me.

C'mon now, Sharon Apple is a literal doppelganger for Myung.

Of course!

well actually, initially BDI'ed by/with Myung, more like it.

[VF5SS]

http://macross2.net/m3/messages/contrivance.jpg

can we make one of these for Isamu

because I think his only character trait is that he breaks things :3

He broke the desk, almost broke his old captain's hand, broke Millard's name tag on his door, broke a bunch of buildings, broke two Valkyries, broke Guld's concentration (a lot), and broke the Macross's main computer.

He joined SMS just to pay for all the insurance premiums he racked up.

[VF5SS]

Considering actual AI work was started back in the early 20th century and lots of impressive military/medical developments since (internet, deep blue, asimo, siri, etc, etc) it is quite easier to consider a far future development like Sharon.

It really just makes Plus alot less hokey than M7's Ultraman-ish stuff.

Which is your opinion.

As someone who knows a little bit about computers, I find it incredibly hokey that Sharon can just access anything at any time just because "it's AI lawl." One of the goofier things I though twas Yan exclaiming that Sharon took control of the Ghost. Like really? It's a drone designed to kill things. She could have just told it to kill you which is what it's job is. Nobody says I've taken control of my Roomba just because I set it to clean the carpet.

Again there's no real reason to present Sharon as a technological terror when she has mind control.

And I don't see what is any more or less alien about an AI taking over a city using an information high and then riding around on a Kadun just for show than space vampires who find common ground with the beings they were feeding on. Computers designed to emulate human beings don't necessarily think like human beings do. Neither would an interdimensional space being think like a human being but hey these shows are all about communication among strange cultures so they all speak Japanese.

[treatment]

Which is your opinion.

As someone who knows a little bit about computers, I find it incredibly hokey that Sharon can just access anything at any time just because "it's AI lawl." One of the goofier things I though twas Yan exclaiming that Sharon took control of the Ghost. Like really? It's a drone designed to kill things. She could have just told it to kill you which is what it's job is. Nobody says I've taken control of my Roomba just because I set it to clean the carpet.

Well, fwiw, I also know a little bit about computers and stuff, since I'm employed by a corp that makes alot and sell alot of computing and computing-related r&d stuff.

Again there's no real reason to present Sharon as a technological terror when she has mind control.

Well, in the fiction, Sharon also controlled the entire global defense of the Earth, the X9 and Macross' weapons, so it's not just mind-control that we can present Sharon in evil form. Sharon's mind-control was relatively quite weak since somehow both Myung and Guld did not get affected by her unlike Isamu.

And I don't see what is any more or less alien about an AI taking over a city using an information high and then riding around on a Kadun just for show than space vampires who find common ground with the beings they were feeding on. Computers designed to emulate human beings don't necessarily think like human beings do. Neither would an interdimensional space being think like a human being but hey these shows are all about communication among strange cultures so they all speak Japanese.

I'm not including stuff from Zero or Frontier, so I'm a little perplexed why you're interjecting their own concepts into our little Sharon/M7 discussion.

Nevertheless and still, Sharon (or Plus' themes) are still less hokey than M7's magical alien themes. At the very least, the presentation of Sharon is much easier to be absorbed by westerners and it still does.

In contrast, M7's aliens and Basara were more likely much easier to absorb by the Japanese-fans than Plus, as evidenced by M7 being more successful over there in Japan than Plus.

But hey! Maybe in the future, they'll find somebody like Basara who can neutralize alien mind-wipe by singing in space someday. Just gotta find an alien and/or an alien that does mind-wipe first.

[leading edge]

I thought we were discussing Basara wheter we liked him or not not a scifi comparison between Maross 7 and Macross Plus. I feel this may be getting a bit off topic. But in anycase it is interesting um do you both think some of it would be best saved for a AI Vs Macross 7 spiritia thread?

[VF5SS]

Well, fwiw, I also know a little bit about computers and stuff, since I'm employed by a corp that makes alot and sell alot of computing and computing-related r&d stuff.

so how many Vocaloids take over your computers on a daily basis

Well, in the fiction, Sharon also controlled the entire global defense of the Earth, the X9 and Macross' weapons, so it's not just mind-control that we can present Sharon in evil form. Sharon's mind-control was relatively quite weak since somehow both Myung and Guld did not get affected by her unlike Isamu.

They had high will saves.

Nevertheless and still, Sharon (or Plus' themes) are still less hokey than M7's magical alien themes. At the very least, the presentation of Sharon is much easier to be absorbed by westerners and it still does.

Plus and 7's themes are almost the same. The male characters are quite similar and they play the same roles.

Americans also liked the movie Hackers at one time. I know it has Angelina Jolie wearing a tight shirt with no bra but still :v

Westerners are also pretty big on Poniez.

In contrast, M7's aliens and Basara were more likely much easier to absorb by the Japanese-fans than Plus, as evidenced by M7 being more successful over there in Japan than Plus.

One was never released in the west on a legitimate video format and was never broadcast on TV either.

[anime52k8]

Westerners are also pretty big on Poniez.

Can I just say that I enjoy Macross 7 and think Basara is a pretty cool guy.

[Devil 505]

Can I just say that I enjoy Macross 7 and think Basara is a pretty cool guy.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Devil 505

[treatment]

so how many Vocaloids take over your computers on a daily basis

Unfortunately, I'm not kewl enuff to appreciate vocaloids.

But why be silly and hide the fact that rogue programs like the Morris worm of the 80's or the current electronic warfare between Iran and western powers are not quite as fictional?

They had high will saves.

lol!

Plus and 7's themes are almost the same.

That may be, but rogue AI and magical aliens of the week are just simply not quite the same.

The male characters are quite similar and they play the same roles.

I dunno about that.

Isamu is a hot head test pilot who wants to get the ultimate flight experience, while Basara is some j-pop dude who's got high spiritia stuff and wants to emulate Minmay.

Not quite similar, I must say.

Americans also liked the movie Hackers at one time. I know it has Angelina Jolie wearing a tight shirt with no bra but still :v

:shrugs:

Westerners are also pretty big on Poniez.

Evidently coz at the very least, the Poniez will love and tolerate the sh!t outta everyone.

A bit opposite of Basara's personality and methods.

One was never released in the west on a legitimate video format and was never broadcast on TV either.

well and good that it didn't, imo.

[treatment]

I thought we were discussing Basara wheter we liked him or not not a scifi comparison between Maross 7 and Macross Plus. I feel this may be getting a bit off topic. But in anycase it is interesting um do you both think some of it would be best saved for a AI Vs Macross 7 spiritia thread?

Just think of it as Basara loves aliens while Isamu hates AI.

[anime52k8]

That may be, but rogue AI and magical aliens of the week are just simply not quite the same.

I'm unclear how you've come to the conclusion that they are in fact magical aliens. I don't recall them ever waving wands and shouting faux Latin at people or wearing frilly pink dresses with sparkly tiaras for weapons.

[Keith]

Throwing the word "magic" in doesn't help your argument at all, nor does comparing 7 with Ultraman, at least one of the two you've obviously never seen. Bottom line, you either do not, or refuse to accept the concept that later Protoculture technology was based in biologicaly recreated what they already did mechanically, which in turn (as of Frontier) we know was originally done biologically by the Vajra. This isn't a concept exclusive to anime, or eastern sci-fi. It pops up fairly often in western sci-fi too. Computer A.i./Brain, beam weapon/organ that can create beams too, etc. Hell, if you really want to get down on this issue, how did Sharon's A.I. really work? A freakin' "BIO-NEURAL CHIP." If you're going to call hte Protodevelin magical for their bio-science, then you'll have to call Sharon magical too since she incorportated a bio-aspect to the very core of how she worked.

I also don't see you complaining about DYRL mobile fortress Bodolza. One giant living ship that also had a bio-based super cannon.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Keith

[isamu]

I think he's a good character

[Isamu Dyson]

Granted Basara is anything but logical, which is why everyone else around him is there to compensate. Which is exactly like Isamu "Mr. Ego" Dyson.

Huh? This thread has been very entertaining and controversial simply for a character that isn't a typically likeable or identifiable protagonist. I have my own feelings about Basara and have tried to hold back from posting anything negative. I really admire Keith's determination and loyalty for making a stand for his favorite pilot no matter how many attacks are made at Basara. As for me, I have to put my foot down in regards to the comparison between Isamu and Basara. Isamu is Maverick in the Macross World. If anything, he could very well be the only pilot that could hold his own against Jenius. Basara's also at their level if you think about how he avoids attacks in battroid mode while singing and playing in tune but loses points for not fighting back . Isamu isn't arrogant he's just confident - At times he's childish but he's a badass when he flies. Badasss I say~~~: Who wouldn't want a wingman who can take down a small squadron on his own? He doesn't count kills like Shin nor compete with other squadron members to save face like Hikaru. He lives for the moment between life and death in the sky. He's honest enough to tell a woman he's a horndog and actually gets it. When Isamu whoo hoos - he's expressing his excitement to himself laughing at danger. He doesn't shout to everyone on the battlefield "listen to my whoo hoo!" He's an uncompromising character but he can back it up with skills on the field. Simple minded but honest and that's why I like him. Without knocking on Basara - I'll just say those two pilots are on a different level with each other. It would be an insult for both pilots to be compared to one another. They have different reasons for flying. One pulls the trigger while the other pulls strings. One has a high kill ratio and the other is trying for a zero body count. Complete opposites from one another. If you hate Isamu then you must hate Maverick from Top Gun cuz those two guys are almost mirror images of each other not Basara.

[Bri]

Basara and Isamu are similar in the sense that both live for their passion and are both a bit lacking in social graces. Difference is that Basara's passion is music rather than flying and his piloting skills are just a means to an end.

Basara as a character shares traits with the classic hotblooded pilot type like Koji Kabuto and the more brooding anti-heroes in mecha of the late 90s and 2000s. Isamu is a typical baddass character and shows how dated Plus is. In modern anime a main protagonist like that would be a girl while Myung would be the completely average guy character. Gender role reversal from post-2k otaku anime kicking in.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Bri

[treatment]

Throwing the word "magic" in doesn't help your argument at all, nor does comparing 7 with Ultraman, at least one of the two you've obviously never seen.

Eh? You wanna see my Ultraman boxsets and CA rips of M7?

I think you're either simply just misunderstanding the hokeyness of M7 being equaled to Ultraman's "science-fiction" stuff, or you're just butthurt about it for some reason.

Bottom line, you either do not, or refuse to accept the concept that later Protoculture technology was based in biologicaly recreated what they already did mechanically, which in turn (as of Frontier) we know was originally done biologically by the Vajra. This isn't a concept exclusive to anime, or eastern sci-fi. It pops up fairly often in western sci-fi too.

Oh, I can accept the Protoculture-concept.

I just think the actual Protodevlin and the threat they are supposed to represent were quite hokey in the anime and their designs were tired old derivation-ripoffs of characters from various asian religions and superstitions. Those alien monster designs and concepts are just not regularly seen in western sci-fi since after the 1950's b-movie era or something, afaik.

I propose that the Protodevlins should be redesigned and reconceptualized as the Pretty Devlins wearing pretty sailor-soldier uniforms, as anime52k8 suggests. That way, they'll be instantly 20% cooler.

Computer A.i./Brain, beam weapon/organ that can create beams too, etc. Hell, if you really want to get down on this issue, how did Sharon's A.I. really work? A freakin' "BIO-NEURAL CHIP."

I already have posted a link to an episode of Through The Wormhole regarding something real-world that are quite close to the BDI and stuff. It's an excellent series and I highly suggest you watch the series to find out other exciting stuff in the scientific real world that reminisces stuff found in M-Plus.

If you're going to call hte Protodevelin magical for their bio-science, then you'll have to call Sharon magical too since she incorportated a bio-aspect to the very core of how she worked.

The difference is we already got working stuff that is quite near to what Sharon and her potential danger were envisioned of.

Sharon is simply just not as magical as you think she oughta be.

In contrast, the way the Protodevlins and their vampiric zombifying control/power concepts were presented are just simply still in the realm of magical stuff. There is just no actual working concept of what they are and what they represent to be found other than the monsters concepts found in asian religions and superstitions.

I also don't see you complaining about DYRL mobile fortress Bodolza. One giant living ship that also had a bio-based super cannon.

The reason you don't see me complaining about DYRL is simply because I am not.

You and Veef assserted that the Sharon/Myung concept was "vague" compared to M7's stuff. I disagreed and posted working real-world stuff that is close to the Sharon/Myung concept.

Maybe you'd like to post comparable real-world stuff that presents Protodevlins and Basara's anima spiritia stuff to counter? I'm really interested.