Basara Nekki

[treatment]

But Basara kamikazes into battle every episode...

As I've listed, to be a Macross hero, the lead dude is supposed to rescue the maiden (Minmay/Misa/Sara/Ishtar/Myung) or destroy the enemy (Bodolza, Sharon) via kamikaze.

Basara doesn't really do any of that. His repeated interjection are not even heroic in nature or definition. It's just selfish indulgence. Even with the battles in M7 that are all pretty much comically animated and choreographed in looping recycled stock-footages.

In the end, what he does in M7 are all stuff designed to appeal to useless shenanigans. Twilight Sparkle and Pinky Pie and the rest of MLP:FIM crew does a much much better job of doing that and they're all ponies.

[Renato]

As I've listed, to be a Macross hero, the lead dude is supposed to rescue the maiden (Minmay/Misa/Sara/Ishtar/Myung) or destroy the enemy (Bodolza, Sharon) via kamikaze.

There are few maidens in need of rescuing in Mac 7, I think Mylene is a very strong independent female character. Having said that, she was grabbed and almost eaten in episode 28. Basara rescued her. In episode 12 (or 13?) she was kidnapped. Basara rescued her. Watch the show, man.

No, he did not destroy the enemy. That's kind of the point, actually -- to undermine the senseless mutual destructive cycle of battle...

I don't know what you are talking about in your last paragraph because of all the acronyms which I cannot really be bothered to look up right now, sorry.

[treatment]

There are few maidens in need of rescuing in Mac 7, I think Mylene is a very strong independent female character. Having said that, she was grabbed and almost eaten in episode 28. Basara rescued her. In episode 12 (or 13?) she was kidnapped. Basara rescued her. Watch the show, man.

No, he did not destroy the enemy. That's kind of the point, actually -- to undermine the senseless mutual destructive cycle of battle...

:sigh:

Maybe you should rewatch it and find out who actually was protecting Mylene in ep28.

That said, not even sure why you're putting that type of "rescue" with the other known Macross-rescues. It was neither heroic nor intense like the other Macross-rescues.

That kind of "rescuing" from M7 is just too juvenile to even consider.

I mean, you know, Alto's rescue of Ranka in ep1 was just many many many much much much more awesome sauce in comparison. and i'm way way too neutral/borderline-dislike on both Alto and Frontier.

I don't know what you are talking about in your last paragraph because of all the acronyms which I cannot really be bothered to look up right now, sorry.

well, you should find out. maybe it's just not out in Japan, yet, but I don't think it's geoblocked.

bonus:

I tell you what.

Basara got nothing against this fave circle-glasses-wearing extreme-peacenik character of mine. and he's not even a pony...:

Edited October 6, 2011 by treatment

[Gubaba]

...kamikaze...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[treatment]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I do not think you know what you're talking about.

[Gubaba]

I do not think you know what you're talking about.

A kamikaze attack is a suicide run, yes?

[treatment]

A kamikaze attack is a suicide run, yes?

with a definitive purpose...

[Gubaba]

with a definitive purpose...

But the key word being "suicide," yes?

[JB0]

I think we should take a step back and talk about the REAL issue here.

Specifically, that jerk Gamlin getting Millia's 1J blown up!

[treatment]

But the key word being "suicide," yes?

are you that dense to be aware or know of the context in how I used it in my listing of the heroic acts?

[Gubaba]

are you that dense to be aware or know of the context in how I used it in my listing of the heroic acts?

If by "context," you mean "incorrect definition," then no, I'm not that dense. Which is why I corrected you.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Gubaba

[treatment]

If by "context," you mean "incorrect definition," then no, I'm not that dense. Which is why I corrected you.

No.

Like I said, you do not know what you're talking about.

[Gubaba]

No.

Like I said, you do not know what you're talking about.

Okay...so if "kamikaze" DOESN'T mean "suicide attack" (or, if you want to be literal, "God Wind"), then what does it mean to you?

[treatment]

Okay...so if "kamikaze" DOESN'T mean "suicide attack" (or, if you want to be literal, "God Wind"), then what does it mean to you?

:sigh:

not all kamikaze pilots died in ww2, you know...

[Gubaba]

:sigh:

not all kamikaze pilots died in ww2, you know...

Did they try to?

[anime52k8]

No.

Like I said, you do not know what you're talking about.

So what you're saying is that you're right because you refuse to acknowledge that you are in fact wrong.

Now, getting back to the topic at had. The impression I'm getting is as fallows: People don't like Basara because he doesn't use gratuitous, senseless violence as a solution to every problem he encounters.

Would that be a fair assessment?

[treatment]

Did they try to?

go do some of your own research, then.

that said, maybe you should provide some rebuttal on the heroic listings I'd made and/or try to paint Basara as a heroic figure instead?

[Gubaba]

go do some of your own research, then.

that said, maybe you should provide some rebuttal on the heroic listings I'd made and/or try to paint Basara as a heroic figure instead?

But I am...I'm saying none of the pilots you listed were kamikazes.

And as Renato pointed out, if by "kamikaze" you mean (incorrectly), "flying into the face of danger with (as you put it) a 'definitive purpose,'" then yes, Basara belongs with them.

The problem is that you're creating a reductive definition of a "Macross hero," which doesn't hold water...specifically, that they have to be flying out to rescue a woman.

DYRL Hikaru doesn't fly against Bodolzaa to rescue a girl. Alto doesn't fly against Galaxy to rescue a girl (well...he does first, but not in the final, final battle). Hibiki doesn't fly against Igues to rescue Ishtar or Sylvie.

It's more like you're saying, "What definition can I come up with more a Macross hero that excludes Basara?" and then working from there.

[JB0]

Now, getting back to the topic at had. The impression I'm getting is as fallows: People don't like Basara because he doesn't use gratuitous, senseless violence as a solution to every problem he encounters.

Would that be a fair assessment?

No, it would not.

My problem with him is he's a force of nature, not a character.

He has no personality or character development or backstory. From a narrative perspective, he exists solely to sing. As handled, he is not an interesting character, and shouldn't have been the primary focus of the story.

Essentially, my problem is not one with the character himself, but with the production focusing on the non-character to the detriment of everything else.

[treatment]

But I am...I'm saying none of the pilots you listed were kamikazes.

And as Renato pointed out, if by "kamikaze" you mean (incorrectly), "flying into the face of danger with (as you put it) a 'definitive purpose,'" then yes, Basara belongs with them.

The problem is that you're creating a reductive definition of a "Macross hero," which doesn't hold water...specifically, that they have to be flying out to rescue a woman.

DYRL Hikaru doesn't fly against Bodolzaa to rescue a girl. Alto doesn't fly against Galaxy to rescue a girl (well...he does first, but not in the final, final battle). Hibiki doesn't fly against Igues to rescue Ishtar or Sylvie.

It's more like you're saying, "What definition can I come up with more a Macross hero that excludes Basara?" and then working from there.

I think you're just hung up on some dictionary-meaning.

Read the listing again. The "kamikaze" death-dive and such refers to the last desperate no-other-options attack available to those Macross-pilots. Whether to rescue the lead-girl or destroy the enemy or both. That is quite clear on the listings I've made. Maybe you overlooked it?

In contrast, Basara always have other available options. Yet, he decides not to use them every time and he just stupidly charge in the middle of the battles. That is just not heroic and I just cannot consider that a "kamikaze" something in the context similar to what the other macross-heroes did.

The theme Renato opined was that those other Macross-pilots didn't do anything heroic more than Basara. I listed some of the stuff I remember as a rebuttal.

Maybe you both consider Basara interjecting himself as a peacenik in the middle of a raging battle to sing a song as "heroic".

I just don't. Especially in contrast to what the other Macross-pilots did do.

Is that clear enough for you?

[Renato]

that said, maybe you should provide some rebuttal on the heroic listings I'd made and/or try to paint Basara as a heroic figure instead?

I tried, but you didn't accept it. That's why I failed.

Shall I "try again" then, as the song goes?

Here are the "rescues" I listed, in response to your statement that he never rescued any maiden in distress: I said episode 28 and you correctly pointed out that there was no heroic rescue in that episode. I was wrong. I apologize. I was thinking of the scene where Basara had lost his voice and stopped Mylene from being eaten by Glavil by holding his jaws open. That was not episode 28, I looked it up and it was actually 27, "Rainbow song energy". 28 was the one with the soundboosters, I don't remember that one so well. Anyway, I wanted to point out this scene at around 19:16 --

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v19316239F7332G2K

OK. I also mentioned another one where he rescues Mylene and a bunch of other civilians in the episode where City 7 gets separated from Battle 7, which was either #12 or 13, again, I cannot remember which right now, I'M SORRY. But it's there. You made no response, other than "that's not heroic" -- though I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the episode in question or not.

Want another? Fine, what about the one in episode #11 "Minmay Video" where he rescues Mylene from the creepy date-rape guy, and a vampire, all at once? I got plenty more where that came from.

I dunno, man, I've got rebuttals being thrown at you very which way, but I guess if you keep ignoring/brushing them off without much critique because the rescues were NOT SUICIDAL ENOUGH, then, I guess we're not speaking the same language, therefore I lose. I am willing to admit failure in this case. Shame we cannot seem to communicate.

And I think you are talking about My Little Pony in a couple of posts. OK, that's nice, but shall we talk about Macross 7, please?

So what you're saying is that you're right because you refuse to acknowledge that you are in fact wrong.

Yeah, this seems to be a worrisome tendency in many fandoms....

[treatment]

I tried, but you didn't accept it. That's why I failed.

Shall I "try again" then, as the song goes?

Here are the "rescues" I listed, in response to your statement that he never rescued any maiden in distress: I said episode 28 and you correctly pointed out that there was no heroic rescue in that episode. I was wrong. I apologize. I was thinking of the scene where Basara had lost his voice and stopped Mylene from being eaten by Glavil by holding his jaws open. That was not episode 28, I looked it up and it was actually 27, "Rainbow song energy". 28 was the one with the soundboosters, I don't remember that one so well. Anyway, I wanted to point out this scene at around 19:16 --

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v19316239F7332G2K

OK. I also mentioned another one where he rescues Mylene and a bunch of other civilians in the episode where City 7 gets separated from Battle 7, which was either #12 or 13, again, I cannot remember which right now, I'M SORRY. But it's there. You made no response, other than "that's not heroic" -- though I'm not sure if you're referring specifically to the episode in question or not.

Want another? Fine, what about the one in episode #11 "Minmay Video" where he rescues Mylene from the creepy date-rape guy, and a vampire, all at once? I got plenty more where that came from.

I dunno, man, I've got rebuttals being thrown at you very which way, but I guess if you keep ignoring/brushing them off without much critique because the rescues were NOT SUICIDAL ENOUGH, then, I guess we're not speaking the same language, therefore I lose. I am willing to admit failure in this case. Shame we cannot seem to communicate.

And I think you are talking about My Little Pony in a couple of posts. OK, that's nice, but shall we talk about Macross 7, please?

Yeah, this seems to be a worrisome tendency in many fandoms....

Try to read my post above you to hopefully make sense of what I was trying to convey to you.

[Renato]

I think you're just hung up on some dictionary-meaning.

So... There are literally no words I can use to continue this argument now. You got me, dude, you win. "You're thinking too much about the meaning of the words I am using." Hmm. I gotta tell you, that's original and foolproof. I'll have to try that next time I'm having a discussion with someone.

Try to read my post above you to hopefully make sense of what I was trying to convey to you.

Well, I think I do, and so I understand the reasons why you do not like Basara. I do not share those reasons, and that's part of why I do like him.

[treatment]

So... There are literally no words I can use to continue this argument now. You got me, dude, you win. "You're thinking too much about the meaning of the words I am using." Hmm. I gotta tell you, that's original and foolproof. I'll have to try that next time I'm having a discussion with someone.

you are willfully not reading the other part of my post?

here's the pertinent section again:

Read the listing again. The "kamikaze" death-dive and such refers to the last desperate no-other-options attack available to those Macross-pilots. Whether to rescue the lead-girl or destroy the enemy or both. That is quite clear on the listings I've made. Maybe you overlooked it?

In contrast, Basara always have other available options. Yet, he decides not to use them every time and he just stupidly charge in the middle of the battles. That is just not heroic and I just cannot consider that a "kamikaze" something in the context similar to what the other macross-heroes did.

The theme Renato opined was that those other Macross-pilots didn't do anything heroic more than Basara. I listed some of the stuff I remember as a rebuttal.

Maybe you both consider Basara interjecting himself as a peacenik in the middle of a raging battle to sing a song as "heroic".

I just don't. Especially in contrast to what the other Macross-pilots did do.

That should be clear enough for the usage of the term "kamikaze".

Well, I think I do, and so I understand the reasons why you do not like Basara. I do not share those reasons, and that's part of why I do like him.

It's not that I dislike Basara at all. I think I mentioned that I actually like him better than Alto

I'm just giving you some rebuttal for the "heroic" aspect of the other Macross-pilots to contrast with what you posted about them to compare to Basara.

Edited October 6, 2011 by treatment

[Keith]

Dude, Basara flew into a freakin' volcano despite Protoculture distortion fields disrupting avionics to find Sivil, he flew into the orbit of a sun to save al the citizens of city 7, he flew into Gepelnitch to save the whole galaxy, etc.

Bottom line, if Basara did eveything he did with a gunpod full of death, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Gubaba]

I think you're just hung up on some dictionary-meaning.

I know, I know...I use English "words" to convey "meaning," and I try to use them in a "commonly-accepted sense," which is generally found in a "dictionary." I'm so KA-RAAAAAAAAAZZZZY!!!

Read the listing again. The "kamikaze" death-dive and such refers to the last desperate no-other-options attack available to those Macross-pilots. Whether to rescue the lead-girl or destroy the enemy or both. That is quite clear on the listings I've made. Maybe you overlooked it?

You also said "definitive purpose," which is something more general, and fits Basara.

You said "destroy" the enemy, but if you change it to "pacify" the enemy (in whatever way), doesn't that also fit Basara?

In contrast, Basara always have other available options. Yet, he decides not to use them every time and he just stupidly charge in the middle of the battles. That is just not heroic and I just cannot consider that a "kamikaze" something in the context similar to what the other macross-heroes did.

Charging into the middle of a battle isn't "kamikaze" enough for you...? Really...?

The theme Renato opined was that those other Macross-pilots didn't do anything heroic more than Basara. I listed some of the stuff I remember as a rebuttal.

Maybe you both consider Basara interjecting himself as a peacenik in the middle of a raging battle to sing a song as "heroic".

I just don't. Especially in contrast to what the other Macross-pilots did do.

Is that clear enough for you?

Look...it's not that I don't UNDERSTAND you, it's that I don't AGREE with you.

[Renato]

you are willfully not reading the other part of my post?

here's the pertinent section again:

That should be clear enough for the usage of the term "kamikaze".

I did read it, that is why I said I understand your reasoning. It is not my reasoning, though, because I believe that, like I've mentioned in previous posts here, having other options (like the option of shooting) and not using it, rather, being true to your belief system and engaging an enemy without counterattack is one example of Basara's heroism. And you yourself mentioned you accept my (and Gubaba's et al) views when you said:

Maybe you both consider Basara interjecting himself as a peacenik in the middle of a raging battle to sing a song as "heroic".

I just don't. Especially in contrast to what the other Macross-pilots did do.

So I won't repeat any more. I get it. I think we hold different values. Although M7 is a long series and those "Kamikaze/no-other-options rescues" are quite plentiful, even by your definition. Episode 5, when Basara rescues the biker chicks by shooting a missile? It went against his beliefs, which is why he was upset afterwards, but you must have thought it was heroic, yes? So did the biker girls. The point is that Basara did not, and the show is trying to gradually build up on why not. Therefore, I think you are stuck on the mindset that is prevalent within the first few episodes of M7 and cannot and will not see past this. That's OK, it just means the show is not for you. But I personally admire the show for structuring itself that way, I think it's quite subtly clever and unique.

Bottom line, if Basara did eveything he did with a gunpod full of death, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yeah, it would be a long and boring show with no point or originality. The whole reason for the show's length is its intention to very gradually change the mindsets of the characters around Basara, and where possible, that of the viewers, too.

[treatment]

I know, I know...I use English "words" to convey "meaning," and I try to use them in a "commonly-accepted sense," which is generally found in a "dictionary." I'm so KA-RAAAAAAAAAZZZZY!!!

Well, you know, there are several proper ways to use a term besides it's dictionary-meaning. It might actually even have different meaning based on context, usage and stuff.

Like, you know, the term "kappa". or "Otaku". or whatever else japanese-terms that have multiple meanings and usage and stuff...

You also said "definitive purpose," which is something more general, and fits Basara.

"Definitive purpose" meaning "no other options left".

You said "destroy" the enemy, but if you change it to "pacify" the enemy (in whatever way), doesn't that also fit Basara?

"Pacify" fits only Basara, but not the other Macross-pilots. So the term fails for comparison's sake.

Maybe if we're comparing Basara with the Macross-babes instead, it'll have a better chance for usage.

Charging into the middle of a battle isn't "kamikaze" enough for you...? Really...?

If it's the only viable option left, then yes it's a kamikaze.

If there are actually other viable and available options left, then no. Definitely not a kamikaze. It'll just be a lazy usage of the kamikaze-term.

Look...it's not that I don't UNDERSTAND you, it's that I don't AGREE with you.

That's fine with me.

[JB0]

Dude, Basara flew into a freakin' volcano despite Protoculture distortion fields disrupting avionics to find Sivil, he flew into the orbit of a sun to save al the citizens of city 7, he flew into Gepelnitch to save the whole galaxy, etc.

Bottom line, if Basara did eveything he did with a gunpod full of death, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I flew into the orbit of a sun just to be born.

And MY complaints about Basara would be unchanged if he was a murderdeath force of nature instead of a phatbeathippie force of nature.

[treatment]

Bottom line, if Basara did eveything he did with a gunpod full of death, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

well, if he did it like the way Vash the Stampede did, maybe he'll be alot more likable and stuff.

LOVE AND PEACE!

Edited October 6, 2011 by treatment

[VF-15 Banshee]

I think we should take a step back and talk about the REAL issue here.

Specifically, that jerk Gamlin getting Millia's 1J blown up!

For sure I thought she'd beat the crap out of him and then forbid Mylene from dating him!

I flew into the orbit of a sun just to be born.

I flew with Luke Skywalker and Wedge Antilles at the Battle of Yavin! Man, we have so many interesting people on this forum. (Seriously dude, that made me laugh. You get a gold star.)

well, if he did it like the way Vash the Stampede did, maybe he'll be alot more likable and stuff.

Now there's an interesting thing. I really don't like Vash but I DO like Basara, despite his being kinda one-dimensional. Funny how people's minds work init it?

[anime52k8]

I flew into the orbit of a sun just to be born.

And MY complaints about Basara would be unchanged if he was a murderdeath force of nature instead of a phatbeathippie force of nature.

what's wrong with forces of nature? Forces of nature are awesome! Have you ever seen Twister? Those tornadoes where bad ass, but not quite as cool as Basara.

[JB0]

what's wrong with forces of nature? Forces of nature are awesome! Have you ever seen Twister? Those tornadoes where bad ass, but not quite as cool as Basara.

Actually, never did see Twister. From what I heard, the tornado's role was totally phoned in.

Anyways, a force of nature isn't a compelling main character across a full-run TV series.

It MAY be enough for a one-shot action movie, but probably not. Hence why Jurassic Park placed the humans above the T. Rex in terms of screentime, even though Spielberg said that he considers the Tyrant King to be the star of the show.

...

Did I just say Basara is a tyrannosaurus rex? Well, I'm actually okay with that.

[Gubaba]

Well, you know, there are several proper ways to use a term besides it's dictionary-meaning. It might actually even have different meaning based on context, usage and stuff.

Like, you know, the term "kappa". or "Otaku". or whatever else japanese-terms that have multiple meanings and usage and stuff...

Uh...true, but maybe you should define your terms a little better.

Case in point:

"Definitive purpose" meaning "no other options left".

How was I supposed to know that from context and usage? Just because a word has multiple meanings doesn't mean it can mean anything you want it to mean...

"Pacify" fits only Basara, but not the other Macross-pilots. So the term fails for comparison's sake.

Maybe if we're comparing Basara with the Macross-babes instead, it'll have a better chance for usage.

Not really. "Pacify" can also mean "subdue by armed force."

See the things you can learn from dictionaries...?

[BeyondTheGrave]

How about wall agree that Guld was the only kamikaze pilot to not return